Maybe one of you smarties like Agentwood or Blue Order can sort this one out for me, but why is it that so many Republicans supporters are people like poor farmers and wage laborers, even though Democrats are more in favor of welfare and a social security net that would help support and subsidize those same poor people! Guess it just proves that family values and olde tyme relijun are more important to some people than having enough money to support their non-aborted children.
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or is it just that thr poor are poorly educated...therefor too dumb to work that out....and also due to lack of education...big fans of far right politics.
Steve Campbell wrote: or is it just that thr poor are poorly educated...therefor too dumb to work that out....and also due to lack of education...big fans of far right politics.
That's the correct answer Steve. The exact reason Slaggie Thatcher was in for all those years. All the poorly educated working class people were going out and voting her in at every election. She babbled the "good old british bull dog" spirit at them.Be proud and all that shit. The Sun newspaper did not help, all those people reading a shit paper every day, and believing every word it printed. Tory loving scum read that it was.
The ironic thing is, she was ripping all these people off, ruining their lives, putting people out of work. Making the rich, even richer, and shitting on the lower classes, even though they kept putting her there.
Bonz...are you on the maarket or what?
it's not every day I come out with one of my rants and someone who actually HAS half a clue comes along and backs me up :D
(kidding about the market availabilty thing. of course) Mail me bout belfast the link down works..
BTW...glad to see you ...was just thining the entertainment was over 
Its a matter of intelligence and education. Same thing happened here, well to a lesser extent. Our conservative prime minister set himself up as the people's friend, whilst stirring the patriotic pot. Patriotism works well with the less brainy. If you can paint your opponent as less proud of one's country, then that works real well. This is of course a big hurdle to overcome for any reforming party. "Why do you want to change things? Don't you love your country etc".
Howard went as far as calling himself the best friend the Australian working class has ever had. I think the working class her is slowly waking up that he is not. He gave tax breaks to the rich, he passed more a "liberal" workplace relations bill, he is cracking down on welfare recipiants.
His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Maybe one of you smarties like Agentwood or Blue Order can sort this one out for me, but why is it that so many Republicans supporters are people like poor farmers and wage laborers, even though Democrats are more in favor of welfare and a social security net that would help support and subsidize those same poor people! Guess it just proves that family values and olde tyme relijun are more important to some people than having enough money to support their non-aborted children.
the 'family values' thing and the move towards religious fundamentalism has to do with it, but i think it started earlier than that, with the republicans promising to cut taxes. they did, but then had to raise them again (which they never seem to mention)--but the damage was done. also, the GOP has much better spin at the moment; as a result, their brand of populism is winning out in the flyover states.
Bonzette wrote:
Steve Campbell wrote: or is it just that thr poor are poorly educated...therefor too dumb to work that out....and also due to lack of education...big fans of far right politics.
That's the correct answer Steve. The exact reason Slaggie Thatcher was in for all those years. All the poorly educated working class people were going out and voting her in at every election. She babbled the "good old british bull dog" spirit at them.Be proud and all that shit. The Sun newspaper did not help, all those people reading a shit paper every day, and believing every word it printed. Tory loving scum read that it was.
The ironic thing is, she was ripping all these people off, ruining their lives, putting people out of work. Making the rich, even richer, and shitting on the lower classes, even though they kept putting her there.
Right on the Money again Mrs..Who says you can't fool the people?Newspapers and broacasting form opinions for the masses Maggie slag is a perfect example..
Rocket Mick wrote: Don't get me started about MRS T!
It's true. I could write about politics forever. It's a disgrace what that woman done to this country. We're still paying for it now. What alot of people don't realise, is that when in power, she dismantled so much policy, and politcs, so that if any other party ever did get back into power, her legacy would re-shape the face of politics forever. There would be no going back, and no lefty politics. Not in strength anyway. Hence the lack of power Trade Unions have, privatisation, the fact Labour had to become more right wing.After the 1992 general elction, there was no way any other party would get in with such left wing views. Politics had to change. A sad time. But it was all that womans fault.:(
Like I said in a previous thread 'Thatch' (around the time when she was admitted to hospital for 'feeling faint') - I still haven't forgiven the old witch for taking milk off us in the 70's when she was education secretary.
Thatcher the milk snatcher.
Does this explain why most 11 year olds now have an average height of four foot nothing?! Lack of calcium?
Samantha Chapman wrote: Like I said in a previous thread 'Thatch' (around the time when she was admitted to hospital for 'feeling faint') - I still haven't forgiven the old witch for taking milk off us in the 70's when she was education secretary.
Thatcher the milk snatcher.
Does this explain why most 11 year olds now have an average height of four foot nothing?! Lack of calcium?
Tis true! That woman- pure fucking evil!
And why the maths GCSE advanced paper reads 2+2 2X2 4-2
and that's yer gcse.
Maybe we should ask jack how thick the kids at his school are ( since he doesn't seem a twat himself)..but would he have anything to measure against.
I'm not looking forward to being old, when I am old the current generation of iliterate inumerate vegetables will be running the place...incuding what ever dying-old-bastards home I'm in.
Steve Campbell wrote: And why the maths GCSE advanced paper reads 2+2 2X2 4-2
and that's yer gcse.
Maybe we should ask jack how thick the kids at his school are ( since he doesn't seem a twat himself)..but would he have anything to measure against.
I'm not looking forward to being old, when I am old the current generation of iliterate inumerate vegetables will be running the place...incuding what ever dying-old-bastards home I'm in.
You're alive!! Good nights sleep???
It works the same here in this country....our lovely paramilitary cunts do exactly the same thing "friend of the common man" act....then burn out the local shops, or shoot some family members or just take wee seamus off training from which he never comes back.
The stupidity of my fellow man and their inability to stay away from stupid things depresses me a great deal. Will all of human society, our art our heritage, ultimately be lost in a nucler was started over which brand of trainers is best.
I almost believe in segregation for the stupidest 10-15% of the population...or at very least cut their bits off so they can't squirt out the next generation of morons.
For instance.... "we must have lost the battle of the boyne, the border is so much further north" "there were prods in Ireland in 400AD" "no one KNOWS st paddy was Catholic"
you know what I mean....people like that are allowed to vote and act as part of society...guiding it an shaping it....based on such beliefs.
I'm only up and I'm still sore and whiney ( I'm sure you lot will cheer me up tho)...and I REALLY REALLY detest morons.
Bonzette wrote:
Steve Campbell wrote: And why the maths GCSE advanced paper reads 2+2 2X2 4-2
and that's yer gcse.
Maybe we should ask jack how thick the kids at his school are ( since he doesn't seem a twat himself)..but would he have anything to measure against.
I'm not looking forward to being old, when I am old the current generation of iliterate inumerate vegetables will be running the place...incuding what ever dying-old-bastards home I'm in.
You're alive!! Good nights sleep???
nearly 6.5 hours....that's LOADS. I don't just force myself to stay up for another half hour cos I'm still 3 years old and a big Gurn...it's becaue I have to go RIGHT under or I'll be up again in no time.
My first thought when I seen the time when I woke was...."excellent the Angels will have been up for a while already....funny posts for breakfast" :D
Steve Campbell wrote:
Bonzette wrote:
Steve Campbell wrote: And why the maths GCSE advanced paper reads 2+2 2X2 4-2
and that's yer gcse.
Maybe we should ask jack how thick the kids at his school are ( since he doesn't seem a twat himself)..but would he have anything to measure against.
I'm not looking forward to being old, when I am old the current generation of iliterate inumerate vegetables will be running the place...incuding what ever dying-old-bastards home I'm in.
You're alive!! Good nights sleep???
nearly 6.5 hours....that's LOADS. I don't just force myself to stay up for another half hour cos I'm still 3 years old and a big Gurn...it's becaue I have to go RIGHT under or I'll be up again in no time.
My first thought when I seen the time when I woke was...."excellent the Angels will have been up for a while already....funny posts for breakfast" :D
:D Off to Arsenal now. See you later!
As NOOL's token right-wing conservative Republican Rice 2008 atheist, I can assure you it's not "old time religion" for me.
And having grown up in a $50 a month shack with a tin roof (funded by an alcoholic dad who worked on a sales commission), it's not that I'm just trying to fit in at the country club.
I hated Reagan, I hated Thatcher, I voted for... we'll I'm too ashamed to say.
Man, I could go on here, but (1) I need more coffee, and (2) I don't think the question is one bit sincere, as evidenced by the snarkiness in the religion comment. I'd happy engage anyone who was truly curious, but this board seems more like a "I'm liberal, I care, I'm one of you, accept me!" echo boxes.
As for welfare, come visit the ghetto here where I live and explain where 40 years and billions of dollars in welfare have gone.
P.S. I love all of you...but I ain't getting my politics from the off-topic forum of some '80s band's fan site.
fair point although I should kick your ass since I recently in a fit of confusion, went off to try and figure out what this problem with "liberals" is.
Err, we have those here, they're called the looney left, and we don;t go in for them any more than Maggs. I am not a proactive discriminating vegetable rights freaker I assure you, and well you know it laddybuck.
Doesn't ANYONE steer a middle course in that country?
In fairness, this polarisation or bifurcation of all issues is a major block on human progress. No one eveer says to someone from an opposing faction 2hey, we don;t agree, but that's a good idea for once" ...nope....if Bush offered free milk to the whle nation, his detractors would still find something wrong with it.
Just as,if he vowed to exterminate anyone poor or a bit too foreign seeming, his supporters would go along with it.
Am I, and my type a dying breed....people who can look at things and work out the rights and wrongs of it based purely on the merits of that situation (or at least, such information thereon as is made available....a whole issue in itself)?
Maybe it's that I see places like the US and mainland UK, far from moving forward, but slipping back into the kind of idiotic devicive politics we specialize in here.
I don't hold to any side because doing so leads to you backing a loser half the time if you get my meaning. It's not football, you don;t have to vote $LIARS because you're just a $LIARS man.
Something I never get about Americans, and since you're a reasonable sort of chap, maybe you can answer it with something other than a cruise missile's worth of flames. How do you reconcile.... Your leader's and media's constant portrayal to both your own people and the rest of the world that the US is not ona A free country....but in some way the "free-est", a shining beacon of an example. With the plain and simple fact that it's one of the most restrictive, repressive societies since the collapse of the Soviet block. Even if you wanna dispute that claim (and feel free to do so, but let's not actually debate it, because you KNOW it'll end in a knock-down,Drag-out), because it is quite subjective. You could perhaps please try and explain to us mere Euro dumbasses.....a few of the more important freedoms that you have and we don't...me in NI, Maya in the former commie block, whoever. What is it you thnk, in terms of "freedom", sets American apart.
Not looking for a fight, so if there's things you can take 2 ways, it's the way that doesn't involve you whoopin my ass you should take it as.OK? good.
Steve Campbell wrote: Am I, and my type a dying breed....people who can look at things and work out the rights and wrongs of it based purely on the merits of that situation (or at least, such information thereon as is made available....a whole issue in itself)?
I don't hold to any side because doing so leads to you backing a loser half the time if you get my meaning. It's not football, you don;t have to vote $LIARS because you're just a $LIARS man.
Yeah, but that just shows what a pussy you are. It's great in theory to be "above politics," but really that's just insulation from criticism. Someone's going to run the show, and you can run for office yourself, vote for someone else, or do nothing.
I'd love to be free of politics and I hesitate to bring it up anywhere but in political forums; but it's not me who reads some nonsense thread on "toploader or frontloader" and decides to inject politics, and I'm not getting fitted for a "Don't Blame Me, I Hate America Too" T-shirt just 'cause it's in style.
Your leader's and media's constant portrayal to both your own people and the rest of the world that the US is not ona A free country....but in some way the "free-est", a shining beacon of an example.
Typos aside, that's utter crap, and I refuse to assume the burden of proof on that count. You've got the time; convince me otherwise. Educate this poor dumb American blinded by religion.
ahahaha
but it YOU guys who are always makin the claims. not I :D
And I think you'll find that outside the US, my perception that all we ever hear from you is freedom this and freedom that but we never see a whole lot of it....is a very common one. Yes people ? No?
And, no one should hate their own country, although hating your government's not just OK it's a duty.
I see your point about dodging criticism by not having a side. BUT...I do stand up and be counted and take what shit's coming to me once I've made my mind up. Then agin, unlike 95% of humanity, I seem capable of changing my mind about things in light of new evidence or the like...rather than just decry it as false because it does not support my views (well ahem....not usually anyway).
Oh and nop one said brainwashing stupid people was a preserve of one camp or other. Although since both the US and UK no longer have left centre and right, but rather right, far right and "why are we having the party convention in nuremburg?"...it narrows the odds a little.
As for my uninvlovement in the active democratic process. Westminster forbids the people of NI voting for the same parties as on the mainland. I think this is for the very sound reason that there are two groups here who will vote EN MASSE (many of them as often as 6 times in parts of Belfast :D ) to fuck over any Govt. that doesn't do what they want. As it is, when things get marginal the Govt and opposition start making deals with such parties as we DO have for support.
So..one of our mainlanders get's to vote for
- Labour
- conservative
- lib dems
- greens
- monster raving looney. and some others
Any one of which (except the lib dems obviously :D ) could ene up in govt. If I go to vote I get....
- anti catholic nazi V1
- anti catholic nazi V2
- anti catholic nazi V3
- anti protestant nazi V1
- anti protetant nazi V2 6 ineefectual gimps V1 7 ineffectual gimps V2 8 chicks party 9 commie party 10 natural law party
not worth the fucking ink....and I refuse to give my support to anypolitician here as nearly every one of them is a lying fucking Nazi.
I voted ONCE and that was "yes" on the good friday agreement (see old Clinton may have been a tit but he did some good here)...and that was mainly cos I heard the DUP were laying on busses to bring all the almost dead people in from homes with instructions...."Mr paisley says vote no, they want to give the whole country to the fenians". Meanwhile the other lot were doing their usual of getting actually dead people to do the voting.
i hate the way this places works.
Dude, I'll read the lengthy latter 90 percent of your post when you answer my original challenge. But I don't buy your premise about at all. "Your perception" means jack shit to my everyday reality. Give me the numbers, Linux Boy, not clips out of the Guardian.
And as far as voting, if the Democrats give me a decent candidate in 2008 I'll happily pull the lever. I'd be thrilled. Gore? Sorry, no. He had 8 years to prove himself and did squat. Kerry? True, he's not Bush, but no thanks. Next, please.
I hate bespoiling a perfectly good fansite with politics, but if you need to get it out, people, put up or shut up.
I'm not gonna play then :D let's wait til we have a reason to argue.
BTW....typo flames? you can do better than that ;)
All right, seeing as it's just the two of us here, apparently.
I still think you're chock full o' shit, but you're still welcome to the spare room next time you visit.
Steve-o...rednecks don't live in Ohio...
they live in TEXAS...I get to see them all the time...
Gnu Odor wrote: Dude, I'll read the lengthy latter 90 percent of your post when you answer my original challenge. But I don't buy your premise about at all. "Your perception" means jack shit to my everyday reality. Give me the numbers, Linux Boy, not clips out of the Guardian.
And as far as voting, if the Democrats give me a decent candidate in 2008 I'll happily pull the lever. I'd be thrilled. Gore? Sorry, no. He had 8 years to prove himself and did squat. Kerry? True, he's not Bush, but no thanks. Next, please.
I hate bespoiling a perfectly good fansite with politics, but if you need to get it out, people, put up or shut up.
You are WRONG to underestimate the people on this site having a political opinion. We're not all left wing do gooders who want to be accepted. You insult us! You know nothing, for a start, about me or my background, or any of the people who have contributed to this thread. How can you make judgement? I studied politis for 5 years and it's what i have my degree in. I think my knowledge, on world politics is strong. I don't try to belittle other people with it though.
I don't pretend to think i know everything about politics- but a bit of respect goes a long way, whatever side you fight your politics on. Everything that has been commented on this site so far, is not emotional, lefty garbage, it's actual political fact and history, wheteher people agree with it or not.
If you think Bush was a worthy contender. God fucking help us. FACT!
Steve Campbell wrote: L L L L L L L L L osers! L L L L L L L LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLllll
What a fucking day! Losers aint the word. I'm a fucking loser for standing in the freezing cold my whole life and going through this heartache. Who needs a man when you can support Arsenal
GNU...walk away....I've seen them like this before....just back away smiling....tomorrow send her flowers and apologize for, well whatever you can think of by then. Do this, we may live.
check yer mail in a min bonz
Walk away? Moi?
I don't underestimate the people on this site one bit... remember, I'm the Bush voter/American who can't tell a washer from a dryer, so who am I to have an opinion? But if you have facts, bring 'em on... they'd be a refreshing and welcome change from the Bushitlerchimpoilnazi stuff I hear every single day. Dazzle me with your brilliance, people.
I posted in response to the original question, which, frankly, doesn't show a lot of political sophistication; ie, "the poor" should vote for whomever promises them welfare and a "safety net." My question: why should I, and other po' folk, continue to believe people who have poured billions into the welfare state with jack shit to show for it? Why do I pay thousands a year to send my kids to Catholic school? 'Cause I refuse to send my children to a school system on "Academic Watch" despite the fact it spends $10,000-plus per student, per year. Just looked it up, actually: $11,767 per pupil in 2000-01.
I do respect your opinion, Bonzette, and I defy you to find a personal slight in my original post; now let's tend to the original question.
P.S. Just reread the post Bonzette quoted, and for the life of me I do not see where I belittled anyone here. Sure, my respect for Mr. Campbell is shot for the old "they're all liars and Nazis" cop-out line, but my respect for all others remains intact.
While waiting for Bonzette, I'll share another observation: I'm supposedly the one underestimating other people, and yet who is saying:
"poorly educated...therefor too dumb to work that out....and also due to lack of education"
"All the poorly educated working class people..."
"Its a matter of intelligence and education."
"Patriotism works well with the less brainy."
"religious fundamentalism"/"old tyme relijun"
"I almost believe in segregation for the stupidest 10-15% of the population...or at very least cut their bits off so they can't squirt out the next generation of morons."
Clue: It ain't me.
errrrr in NI they ARE (OK not all...just the most important ones...the non nazi's get 3 votes per election) all Liars and Nazis
right down to public speeches on the need for "ovens"
And notwithstanding some fair digs on the belittling thing. You can't belittle stupid people....you can only belittle an intelligent person by calling them stupid. If you actually ARE stupid,s it's description. Saying I'm an apalling Bass dude would be belittling me, saying I can't drive a dog sled for shit would not :)
78681 wrote: Steve-o...rednecks don't live in Ohio...
they live in TEXAS...I get to see them all the time...
i'm tempted to ask what does come from Ohio....but seriously fear that someone would answer "Steers and Queers".
Bonzette wrote:
I studied politis for 5 years and it's what i have my degree in.
You studied it for FIVE years and you still can't spell it?
Steve Campbell wrote:
78681 wrote: Steve-o...rednecks don't live in Ohio...
they live in TEXAS...I get to see them all the time...
i'm tempted to ask what does come from Ohio....but seriously fear that someone would answer "Steers and Queers".
Devo came from Ohio, and that is ALL you need to know on that subject.
there are stupid white people who dress badly, listen to bad music, have poor taste overall, and like to yell EVERYWHERE! call them white trash, or rednecks, or dumb assholes... it doesnt matter.
to oversimplify it's all a matter of thinking is good mentality versus everbody KNOWS what is right and thinkin' too much is bad mentality... and Republicans are getting the lowest common denominator vote, which included alot of poor people... thinking/ trying to be rational is for "fags", you know!
I work with a lot of union people, and almost all the more immature, laziest, uneducated guys out of the group are all totally for Bush, they identify with him cause he is not some stuck up "liberal" snob faglover like Kerry... what kind of sense does that make. Bush is as probably anti- common worker/union than any president in 80 years!!! Bush never even had to work for anything... he practically did nothing for 15 years, and it is debatable what his first "job" was...
BIGINOIL wrote:
Bonzette wrote:
I studied politis for 5 years and it's what i have my degree in.
You studied it for FIVE years and you still can't spell it?
Thanks for that. I am one of those working class people with a poor education. (and in a rage- hammering those letters home, not really looking at it properly:) )
Gnu Odor wrote: While waiting for Bonzette, I'll share another observation: I'm supposedly the one underestimating other people, and yet who is saying:
"poorly educated...therefor too dumb to work that out....and also due to lack of education"
"All the poorly educated working class people..."
"Its a matter of intelligence and education."
"Patriotism works well with the less brainy."
"religious fundamentalism"/"old tyme relijun"
"I almost believe in segregation for the stupidest 10-15% of the population...or at very least cut their bits off so they can't squirt out the next generation of morons."
Clue: It ain't me.
I was actually making refernce to a series of your posts, i just clicked on that one. We could be on here forever arguing about politics. That was not the point of my response to you. I'm not here to pick over the bones of stuff, as above. We are here to discuss things, whether in a light hearted manner, or serious manner, but always with a sense of sarcasm.
My point about your post was, not what your political taste is, but that i found some of the post rather patronising, and undermining, not in a funny way. I'm not trying to have a massive argument about it. That's how it came across to me.
pumped full of drugs wrote: there are stupid white people who dress badly, listen to bad music, have poor taste overall, and like to yell EVERYWHERE!
One more vote for "people are stupid," then. White people in particular, apparently.
So, if people in general are so stupid, why can't the libs/Dems trick more of them into voting for them?
Bonzette wrote: My point about your post was, not what your political taste is, but that i found some of the post rather patronising, and undermining, not in a funny way. I'm not trying to have a massive argument about it. That's how it came across to me.
I'm truly sorry to have come across that way, but I am sincerly curious as to just what about my posts was so "patronising and undermining"? -- especially in light of the other posts quoted above.
Seriously, show me.
Someone else starts a political thread, and the one person who disagrees with the premise is the one singled out as being "patronising" and that's supposed to end the whole discussion.
Gnu Odor wrote:
Bonzette wrote: My point about your post was, not what your political taste is, but that i found some of the post rather patronising, and undermining, not in a funny way. I'm not trying to have a massive argument about it. That's how it came across to me.
I'm truly sorry to have come across that way, but I am sincerly curious as to just what about my posts was so "patronising and undermining"? -- especially in light of the other posts quoted above.
Seriously, show me.
Someone else starts a political thread, and the one person who disagrees with the premise is the one singled out as being "patronising" and that's supposed to end the whole discussion.
Then i apologise if it was the main thread that you were making reference to! It was not clear, and sounded to me that you were making reference to those that had contributed in some way to thread after. I know some of us were serious in our posts,and that we were only making light comments etc. trying to be accepted.
I never wanted to argue about it. I just had to respond how i felt as i know how seriously i take my politics. Whether as part of my job, watching my shit football team in the freezing cold (Arsenal), or having a general chit chat on here.
i know i'm oversimplyfing and stereotyping, but I tend to find that white people tend to be arrogant in America, especially poor white people because they think that cause they are "white" they are number #1 people in America and the world. and because christianity is the "right" religion and white people and amercians are the "true" followers of jesus they are the most self-righteous... no matter what they are number #1 and anything they do or think is justified, fuck everybody else. I'm #1! ... i"m white, I'm American, and jesus loves me! are not i lucky?
errrrrrr it's not like your beloved leader won with an 80% majority dude.
Stupid white men....hmmmmmm often wondered about that myself, fairly sure all races are capable of producing fucktards.
i suppose white folks comes in for it because of there collective herd force of stupidity. weight of numbers. the same can be said of "my" lot here....they get the blame for everything (even the 3% of stuff that actually wasn't their fault (these days anyway))...because there's more of em and when they take a collective hissy fit it fucks the country over.
And at very least you should have to pass a basic (and I mean basic, not fucking mensa....just prove you're smarter than your shoe) before you vote or run for office. Take GWB.....man refutes science as the devils work. yet has his finger on the trigger of science's most deadly, and quite possible evil, creation. He also leader of one of the most technologically advanced societies on Earth. you know what it's like, it's like those dweeb managers that everywhere has these days.....no clue about the actual product or function of the organization, but he's a trained manager. Anyone who's ever worked with one of them (OK, there be a few that are OK, they obviously cheated), has a word for them. And it's more than likely "cunt", although "chocolate teapot fucking twat" is another one. His willful ( I hope) ignorance of the things he's got to decide about is fucking scarey,
Quick straw poll for those outside the US....
Would you agree with the following......
The Us, by means of it's political speeches and even it's television and cinema output, seeks to portray itself as the most free of all nations, a standard by which others should be judged, and a great bunch of all round wholesome good guys who've never done anything even slightly dodgy. But yet, a quick look behind the "wizzards curtain" shows a picture of a place where freedom's not doing all that high on the agenda, and in fact some downright opressive olicies[1].
Yes / no?
And would it bother you less if they weren't so damned false about it.
And no I am not a hater of all things American, rather fond of the place and many of it's fine inhabitants...I just have genuine difficulty recconciling anyting that I understand as sense with some of what I see happening there.
[1]and that is DECIDEDLY aimed at both camps in the US...i've heard the loons on the "left2 over there. strange lot.
Steve Campbell wrote: errrrrrr it's not like your beloved leader won with an 80% majority dude.
Stupid white men....hmmmmmm often wondered about that myself, fairly sure all races are capable of producing fucktards.
i suppose white folks comes in for it because of there collective herd force of stupidity. weight of numbers. the same can be said of "my" lot here....they get the blame for everything (even the 3% of stuff that actually wasn't their fault (these days anyway))...because there's more of em and when they take a collective hissy fit it fucks the country over.
And at very least you should have to pass a basic (and I mean basic, not fucking mensa....just prove you're smarter than your shoe) before you vote or run for office. Take GWB.....man refutes science as the devils work. yet has his finger on the trigger of science's most deadly, and quite possible evil, creation. He also leader of one of the most technologically advanced societies on Earth. you know what it's like, it's like those dweeb managers that everywhere has these days.....no clue about the actual product or function of the organization, but he's a trained manager. Anyone who's ever worked with one of them (OK, there be a few that are OK, they obviously cheated), has a word for them. And it's more than likely "cunt", although "chocolate teapot fucking twat" is another one. His willful ( I hope) ignorance of the things he's got to decide about is fucking scarey,
Steve, :)
Bonzette wrote: I know some of us were serious in our posts,and that we were only making light comments etc. trying to be accepted.
I never wanted to argue about it. I just had to respond how i felt as i know how seriously i take my politics. Whether as part of my job, watching my shit football team in the freezing cold (Arsenal), or having a general chit chat on here.
I don't want to argue either, and I still want to be pals. Maybe more... 
OK, not more.
I believe you take your politics seriously and I'd love to hear your thoughts; the usual "Thatcher's a cunt and I hope she dies an agonizing death" doesn't count as meaty political discussion in my book. But that's as much as anyone will say.
I am disturbed by the elitist mindset that "everyone is stupid except me and people who think like me." Take an example from another thread. Here in ultramegaliberal Cleveland, the schools hand out free breakfasts and lunches all summer long when school is out. Why? Because, silly, those stupid negroes are obviously incapable of pouring their own children a bowl of cereal in the morning so we, the state, have to do it for them. Now who's being condescending? I don't give a flaming fuck what color your skin is, feed your own damn family.
(And yes, I contribute to charity above and beyond my taxes.)
Gnu Odor wrote:
Bonzette wrote: I know some of us were serious in our posts,and that we were only making light comments etc. trying to be accepted.
I never wanted to argue about it. I just had to respond how i felt as i know how seriously i take my politics. Whether as part of my job, watching my shit football team in the freezing cold (Arsenal), or having a general chit chat on here.
I don't want to argue either, and I still want to be pals. Maybe more...
I believe you take your politics seriously and I'd love to hear your thoughts; the usual "Thatcher's a cunt and I hope she dies an agonizing death" doesn't count as meaty political discussion in my book. But that's as much as anyone will say.
I am disturbed by the elitist mindset that "everyone is stupid except me and people who think like me." Take an example from another thread. Here in ultramegaliberal Cleveland, the schools hand out free breakfasts and lunches all summer long when school is out. Why? Because, silly, those stupid negroes are obviously incapable of pouring their own children a bowl of cereal in the morning so we, the state, have to do it for them. Now who's being condescending? I don't give a flaming fuck what color your skin is, feed your own damn family.
(And yes, I contribute to charity above and beyond my taxes.)
You're a happily married man! or not?????
Fair play. I understand (you're wrong though:D )joke. Have a feeling that one day, we will get to have a sit down, long chat, sorry, argument, about Politics.
Of course friends.:p
Steve Campbell wrote: Quick straw poll for those outside the US....
Would you agree with the following......
The Us, by means of it's political speeches and even it's television and cinema output, seeks to portray itself as the most free of all nations, a standard by which others should be judged, and a great bunch of all round wholesome good guys who've never done anything even slightly dodgy. But yet, a quick look behind the "wizzards curtain" shows a picture of a place where freedom's not doing all that high on the agenda, and in fact some downright opressive olicies[1].
Yes / no?
Yes. However, (1) I personally don't have any input into our television and cinema output, and (2) what the fuck are our political leaders supposed to say? When can I expect to hear you complain that Kim Jong Il's not yet come on TV and announced, "You know, our country's really a shithole and I'm sorry."
I do believe we are among the most free of all nations, and I have no idea about this "wizard's curtain" you keep babbling about. Give me details, man ... I live here, perhaps I could clarify your impression. On another forum, challenged about his view of diminishing rights, some git was complaining that he can no longer take a cigarette lighter on an airliner. Well, sorry, but before you blame Bushitler, why not take a look at the real religious fundamentalist sitting next to your trying to light his fucking shoe bombs? There is real oppression in the world and people would rather jabber about evil Bush, who will be out of office in 2009, period.
And don't give me the usual "I like individual Americans, but I hate America" cop-out.
His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Maybe one of you smarties like Agentwood or Blue Order can sort this one out for me, but why is it that so many Republicans supporters are people like poor farmers and wage laborers, even though Democrats are more in favor of welfare and a social security net that would help support and subsidize those same poor people! Guess it just proves that family values and olde tyme relijun are more important to some people than having enough money to support their non-aborted children.
*wades into the thick of the discussion*
I'm Republican on my voting card, but not,uh, one of those "old tyme relijun" types. If you really want to get down to what I am, then "Conservative Centrist" is a bit more appropriate title. I vote according to my logic, and the best path I feel is necessary that follows my own personal code of ethics. Occasionally, I've had to go with the lesser of two 
questionable candidates in elections.
I'm not a fan of welfare because of the working class area I grew up in and seeing people sitting idle-like on the check they got every first of the month and not doing anything further with themselves. Generations have begot generations who have sat on their checks, and don't look for gainful employment. Rare is an instance someone would actually try to make a useful member of themselves from that kind of mucked "we'll pay you for being bone idle" thing. No amount of scholarship nor outreach nor caring can change people content with what they've been given.
I don't particularily enjoy the hardline " let's make this government one religion-based pool" either. I voted to keep Bush in office for reasons that were based on strategy not weeping sentimentalism for some ignorant bans on freedoms I think the government has no right to say yea or nay to.
I don't agree with any radical right or left wing politics, and I certainly don't agree to endless bloodletting on either side all in the sake of "We're the better party". Too much of the government has become "Let's have a fight and not get anything done because we're too full of ourselves", but there are people making differences, and conservative level-headed people at that.
The blame does not fall (solely) to the people who vote, but also the people who don't vote. Our leadership isn't based on a mandatory 100%. We get such pitiful turnouts for local, state and national elections it is sickening! It's not a lack of education, it's a lack of caring. People think their problems will be solved by someone else, or they just don't care enough to stand up and say "That's not right, let's make a change there".
It's never really mattered (in essence) who we've had in office, as they all make bumbling mistakes and fools of themselves. It's more like the people have waned from caring, and in that, people just don't work as hard to keep everything in checks and balances. People forget their rights, people forget this is a nation for the people, by the people - and they screw themselves by not pitching in to help that along.
"You know, our country's really a shithole and I'm sorry."
Y'konw....the first elected leader who says that gets my vote to get re-elected.
not having a fight about this...you don't see it the way we do out here. Fair point about korea....but I don't have korea korea korea korea korea on my tv all day.....again you cops the wort of the reaction by being there more.
Melly....what you said about them spending all day fighting instead of doing anything.....welcome to how we do things in NI :D
melly (msh) wrote:
I'm Republican on my voting card, but not,uh, one of those "old tyme relijun" types. If you really want to get down to what I am, then "Conservative Centrist" is a bit more appropriate title. I vote according to my logic, and the best path I feel is necessary that follows my own personal code of ethics.
All I can think of when you guys talk about that election I hink of that episode of south park where the conculde that very often most elections come down to a choice between a douche and a turd.
Of course we're chums, Bonzette. You're welcome to come over any time ... I'll work out some way to smuggle you into our repressive country.
I would say you're wrong, but I still have no idea where you stand, really. It seems you do social work, so that's a start. 
I am sorry to see so much cynicism and self-loathing, especially among the younger set. I know to get along as a white American these days I'm supposed to say AmeriKKKa is evil, white people are stupid, etc. But I won't. I see these high school kids skipping out of school to hit the "Drive Out the Bush Regime" rally, where the organizers are wearing their damn hammer and sickle badges (true story). These kids are young, they're sincere about their feelings, and they're being played by the Workers World Party. They've never lived in anything but total freedom and prosperity and squander it by hating themselves and their own culture.
And Steve, you're still a pussy. Answer my question.
Steve Campbell wrote: "You know, our country's really a shithole and I'm sorry."
Y'konw....the first elected leader who says that gets my vote to get re-elected.
not having a fight about this...you don't see it the way we do out here. Fair point about korea....but I don't have korea korea korea korea korea on my tv all day.....again you cops the wort of the reaction by being there more.
Melly....what you said about them spending all day fighting instead of doing anything.....welcome to how we do things in NI :D
Steve, you got mail baby!
Bonz
Steve Campbell wrote: "You know, our country's really a shithole and I'm sorry."
Y'konw....the first elected leader who says that gets my vote to get re-elected.
not having a fight about this...you don't see it the way we do out here. Fair point about korea....but I don't have korea korea korea korea korea on my tv all day.....again you cops the wort of the reaction by being there more.
But see, Campo, that's my point. Iran, Syria, North Korea, Iraq, Zimbabwe, etc. and all their respective tyrants all get a pass, and why? 'Cause you don't have to hear about them, and so they don't have any bearing on how you feel about yourself. Tyranny is fine because it's self-contained within its own borders, but arrogance -- that's unforgivable and exportable.
eh?
I think New Orleans is the prime example of the failure of the welfare state. I get really piussed off when I see people at the store with 10 times as much food in their cart paying with food stamps if they look like they could have a fucking job. I'd like to tell them to get in back of the line because I am paying for their food.
they say laughter makes people suggestable.
Bonza babes....send me all your money...oh and some pictures of your boobs :D
Confess -- you're listening to Grand Funk Railroad's "American Band" in those headphones.
Cheeky monkey.
Steve Campbell wrote: they say laughter makes people suggestable.
Bonza babes....send me all your money...oh and some pictures of your boobs :D
You bad, bad, boy!
And yet, out there in the big room, I couldnae pull a christmas cracker never mind a woman.
EDIT: soon however one unlucky Angel will meet me, and report back the awful reality. There will be no more women then :(
Aww Steve, you're too down on yourself, man. I won't run away. :P
(maybe because I don't know what's for my own good. 
)
Regardless of politics or *nix distros, I still think you guys rock. 
The United States' problem is empire syndrome. Pax Americana set in after the failure of the 1960s New Left to actually change the country to the full extent it could have. This is a pretty holey, thin metaphor though, stuff you'd see on the pamphlets handed to you on a college campus by a 36-year-old bearded guy in a hemp jacket reeking of patchouli and axel grease.
I don't want to get into overt socio-cultural nitpicking, which is pseudo-science at best, pseudo-intellectualism at worst, but the sociological problem with America is a solid lack of education. Not very many Americans that comprise the nation's primary voting demographic travel very much. The U.S.'s size and development as a consumerist society contributes to a comforting(or at least satiating) sensation of microcosm wherever you are. What's the point in travelling to dem Jumbungfuck Islands when we've got Walmart and Costco right here with everything we need? No interest in seeing or experiencing other cultures or societies either, a total lack of curiosity or creativity, hell, we've got cable network news in thirteen different flavors of pundit to tell us how those spearchuckers across the drink live, act, and think these days. 3/4ths of my friends in this country: A) Have never left the country or continent B) Have never been inside an airplane C) Don't have a passport D) Have no interest in travel or E) All of the above.
We also feel a need to define ourselves through word and name association. "I'm a --Republican/Democrat/Green/Populist/Goth/Emo/Metalhead/Nerd/Geek/Jock/Bimbo/Dyke/Queer/Cowboy/Artisan--
and I stand up for what I believe in!"
Errrr, no 
, you stand up for what a crowd of other people also pretend to believe in for the reassuring warmth of familiarity, identifiability, and belonging. Godforbid anyone risk some alienation by actually researching issues by themselves and firing some synapses to form educated opinions about the world instead of what Pat Robertson/Jimmy Swaggart/Karl Rove/Neil Cavuto/Bill O'Reilly/Michael Moore/Noel Chomsky tell you is reality. People of the Earth! You eat cheeseburgers and watch tellyvision too!
I tend not to put labels on my beliefs, but i've been called a "Situationist Zen nihilist" in the past, as opposed to just "deluded". For you more dweeby folks out there, I guess that would be "Chaotic Neutral", no?
mutual
it's not that i'm horrible in real life it's that fundamental lack of sexniess I talked about before...reckon you could send 1000 chicks past me speed dating stylee and ask them all afterwards. Half of them would just say "where's he on the run from" but the ones that got me (as all my dear Angels do) would each say the same thing "Steve? oh he's great, top bloke, proably gonna meet up for a drink again sometime.....touch him? oooh no it's not like that"
I know it SOUNDS like I'm being all sorry for myself, but trust me I've got a bloody big smile on my face as I type that...cos it's funny most of the time. Not so, on a cold night when you;ve gone to bed early cos you're bored...but hey how often does that happen. Besides I do very much think I get a better deal. Right now there are 5 or 6 girls on this site that think I'm funny and are entertained by my dribblings. That in itself is payment enough, knowing that I'm putting some happiness out into a dark world. The fact that each and everyone of the aforementioned ladies amuses me half to death (note to self, never try to speak to 2 of them at once), is just a freebie icing on the cake thing. But suppose ONE of those girls decided.."actually...I'll have a bit of that so I will", scoops me at a gig or something, screws me to within an inch of my life, and we get invovled.....where would that leave all the rest of you....where would it leave me....I'd be 1 exercised and happy dick up on the deal...but several sexcellently funny and stimulating friends down on it. I think any woman who could make up for that would need to have more up her sleeve than just her body. LOL listen to MR FUCKIN PICKY
besides, been told before by women of all relationships to me (barring my MOTHER! ahem) "you make a great mate but make/would make/made a fucking USELESS boyfriend"
Mr of the Apes.... that's what I was trying to get at...you are however infinitely more eloquent. Far too many people in the US ( and ever so quickly increasingly in the UK (NI has always been stoopid, ignore us)) follow a code or set of principles and that's that, no reason no nothing. I don't adhere to any sucj thing, I look at what's going on, and I, well...work out how I feel about it. That actually seems to be a Bad Thing.
FWIW, I've been RIGHT behind many things the US has done, and RIGHT against others. And much of my vitriol against "the great satan" is out of concern for people I care about there,(and people there in general), and out of sheer fear of who's got all those guns at their fingertips.
Steve Campbell wrote:
it's not that i'm horrible in real life it's that fundamental lack of sexniess I talked about before...
besides, been told before by women of all relationships to me (barring my MOTHER! ahem) "you make a great mate but make/would make/made a fucking USELESS boyfriend"
Dude, you're so much like my best buddy it's stunning.
The chicks love you. I love you. If I weren't married I'd be on a plane to Bangor tomorrow with roses and a 55 gallon drum of KY.
Get a grip, man. BE the boyfriend. Put the adolescent self-image aside and detonate the sex bomb, baby.
A fiver says each and every Angel I meet in the forthcoming year gives exacty that analysis of me . Your counter bet fiver, is not based on anything so fucking sordid as sex.....just tyat their report on me varies from that I have given above, in any way other than specific phrsing.
Steve Campbell wrote: Your counter bet fiver, is not based on anything so fucking sordid as sex.....just tyat their report on me varies from that I have given above, in any way other than specific phrsing.
Like I said, exactly like my best buddy.
Obviously sex isn't important to you, but that doesn't mean the B.A.s are going to be content just looking.
Gnu Odor wrote:
Dude, you're so much like my best buddy it's stunning.
The chicks love you. I love you. If I weren't married I'd be on a plane to Bangor tomorrow with roses and a 55 gallon drum of KY.
If that isn't the quote of the year, I dunno what is.
yes but unfortunately nominating it for quote of the year is not very helpful to me. it is my sworn purpose in life to erase that comment from my mind as quickly and as fully as possibly.
Gnu Odor wrote:
Steve Campbell wrote: Your counter bet fiver, is not based on anything so fucking sordid as sex.....just tyat their report on me varies from that I have given above, in any way other than specific phrsing.
Like I said, exactly like my best buddy.
Obviously sex isn't important to you, but that doesn't mean the B.A.s are going to be content just looking.
that's not what I meant, just meant I categorically refuse to bet on getting laid, it's a revolting and very immature [1]idea. A million times more so since what we're really talking about is friends of mine.
And it would be an idiotic bet anyway since I'll be attempting no such thing.
you get your fiver if just one comes back here and says "here, see yer man campbell...wouldya? tell you waht I fuckin would" or "wow I wish he was mine" I will NOT however accept "he will make SOMEONE a good BF "
[1] know it's not what u meant either BTW
Gnu Odor wrote:
"religious fundamentalism"/"old tyme relijun"
i stand by my belief that this is part of the reason behind the success of the republican party over the past 10 years. the south has traditionally been solidly democratic, but since the RNC hired ralph reed of the christian coalition the GOP has been able to successfully court the millions of fundamentalist christians who live in the south. the democrats were caught off-guard and the party was essentially emasculated.
part of the reason i left the democratic party and became a green was because the democrats lost their backbone and spent too much time on the defensive. another reason is because i'm tired of the bipartisan system and i believe we need more than two parties to challenge seats in all three branches of government, so i support the growth of the greens, the libertarians and other third parties as alternatives (although i'm not too keen on the american nazi party, i have to admit). three or more parties vying for power would result in true checks and balances.
AgentWood wrote:
Gnu Odor wrote:
"religious fundamentalism"/"old tyme relijun"
i stand by my belief that this is part of the reason behind the success of the republican party over the past 10 years. the south has traditionally been solidly democratic, but since the RNC hired ralph reed of the christian coalition the GOP has been able to successfully court the millions of fundamentalist christians who live in the south.
Yeah, I've got to give you that. Thing is, as an (albeit relectant) atheist, I really had a problem with the post-election analysis: "It was God/values." Well, not with me. And Kerry didn't win my respect in the final months of the campaign by suddenly remembering he was a "deeply religious" person. (Or, similarly, that he was "fascinated by rap and hip hop.")
Where's His Holiness? He opened this can o' worms and now he can't be arsed to check back in.
I honestly do appreciate the opportunity to discuss such things. I'm willing to learn. (And thus hope to keep the NOOL couch exchange open for travel/enlightenment purposes.)
Gnu Odor wrote:
AgentWood wrote:
Gnu Odor wrote:
"religious fundamentalism"/"old tyme relijun"
i stand by my belief that this is part of the reason behind the success of the republican party over the past 10 years. the south has traditionally been solidly democratic, but since the RNC hired ralph reed of the christian coalition the GOP has been able to successfully court the millions of fundamentalist christians who live in the south.
Yeah, I've got to give you that. Thing is, as an (albeit relectant) atheist, I really had a problem with the post-election analysis: "It was God/values." Well, not with me. And Kerry didn't win my respect in the final months of the campaign by suddenly remembering he was a "deeply religious" person. (Or, similarly, that he was "fascinated by rap and hip hop.")
Where's His Holiness? He opened this can o' worms and now he can't be arsed to check back in.
I honestly do appreciate the opportunity to discuss such things. I'm willing to learn. (And thus hope to keep the NOOL couch exchange open for travel/enlightenment purposes.)
i may not be an american, well i am sort of, certainly the religious right was well organised to vote bush. it may not have been the deciding or largest group of voters, but every vote counts (except in florida).
I think it was CakeClockZwart who posted;
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Go have a look... The Q's take 5 mins.
I'm definately a lefty based on this.... It's obvious that there's a mix of lefties and right wingers on this site, but I think most of us are left of centre.
OK, I apparently hang out philosophically with the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela.
Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -1.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.26
I'm not surprised, though. There's theory and there's practice: Communism? Sounds great! Um, a few bugs to work out, though.
I do have a lot of quibbles with this quiz, though, ie, negatively-biased language ("it is worrying," "a sad relection," "it is regrettable," etc.) and awfully vague terms ("the rich," "a good idea," "predator multinationals").
craig's digitalwaters wrote: I think it was CakeClockZwart who posted;
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Go have a look... The Q's take 5 mins.
More quibbles the more I think about it:
The quiz assumes you have a vote or at least believe you have some influence over how your country is run.
Too many questions about corporations; too few about "I believe suicide bombings of civilians are a valid means of political expression."
Bushitler appears on the example graph as two separate persons.
Gnu Odor wrote:
craig's digitalwaters wrote: I think it was CakeClockZwart who posted;
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Go have a look... The Q's take 5 mins.
More quibbles the more I think about it:
The quiz assumes you have a vote or at least believe you have some influence over how your country is run.
Too many questions about corporations; too few about "I believe suicide bombings of civilians are a valid means of political expression."
Bushitler appears on the example graph as two separate persons.
I agree that it needs a tweak, but it's still pretty valid.
craig's digitalwaters wrote:
I agree that it needs a tweak, but it's still pretty valid.
Agreed. I'm comfortable where I am on the graph. And the US 2004 election graph is pretty dead-on, with Bush and Kerry in the same quadrant.
Any suggestion that Kerry was "the antiwar candidate" is hardcore revisionism.
Wow this is a grown up conversation! I thought we were all a bit numb, obviously not.
Good weekend everyone?
BTW Steve Campbell and Gnu - you've both changed your avatars - why? You had an identity change or summink?
FFS Gnu I TOLD you it wouldn't fookin work if we didn't change our logins as well. She sussed us.
AND that's possibly the LEAST oooogly pic every taken of me :(
Missy Jem wrote: Wow this is a grown up conversation! I thought we were all a bit numb, obviously not.
Good weekend everyone?
BTW Steve Campbell and Gnu - you've both changed your avatars - why? You had an identity change or summink?
Missy- you're back We so missed you! I did anyway. Did you get your ticket for Manc Aid?
Bonzette wrote:
Missy Jem wrote: Wow this is a grown up conversation! I thought we were all a bit numb, obviously not.
Good weekend everyone?
BTW Steve Campbell and Gnu - you've both changed your avatars - why? You had an identity change or summink?
Missy- you're back We so missed you! I did anyway. Did you get your ticket for Manc Aid?
YOU missed her?
(actually I'm sure you did, but trust me....i missed her too :) )
Steve Campbell wrote:
Bonzette wrote:
Missy Jem wrote: Wow this is a grown up conversation! I thought we were all a bit numb, obviously not.
Good weekend everyone?
BTW Steve Campbell and Gnu - you've both changed your avatars - why? You had an identity change or summink?
Missy- you're back We so missed you! I did anyway. Did you get your ticket for Manc Aid?
YOU missed her?
(actually I'm sure you did, but trust me....i missed her too :) )
You jealous Mr Campbell????
I dunno who of and why? Is Jem batting for the opposing team or what? (besides, Jem's the one with CAUSE to be jealous since u might be gettin to hook up with her fella before she does!)
BTW, some men really get off watching women fight over them, I don't play nice
I thought if Mr. Campbell was brave enough to show us himself handling his rod, I could post a pic as well.
Plus, to be honest, I was fishing for at least one , sincere or not.
Ronald Kirsch wrote: Its a matter of intelligence and education. Same thing happened here, well to a lesser extent. Our conservative prime minister set himself up as the people's friend, whilst stirring the patriotic pot. Patriotism works well with the less brainy. If you can paint your opponent as less proud of one's country, then that works real well. This is of course a big hurdle to overcome for any reforming party. "Why do you want to change things? Don't you love your country etc".
Howard went as far as calling himself the best friend the Australian working class has ever had. I think the working class her is slowly waking up that he is not. He gave tax breaks to the rich, he passed more a "liberal" workplace relations bill, he is cracking down on welfare recipiants.
Alternatively, it's got less to do with a perceived lack of intelligence in the electorate here and a lot to do with the fact that everyone seems to enjoy a booming economy and low unemployment.
Odd, that.
:\pimp3:
craig's digitalwaters wrote: I think it was CakeClockZwart who posted;
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Go have a look... The Q's take 5 mins.
I'm definately a lefty based on this.... It's obvious that there's a mix of lefties and right wingers on this site, but I think most of us are left of centre.
no, that was me. *cough*
i sit just to the lower left of the dalai lama. when the head of my department took this quiz last year she was so far to the bottom left she was almost off the chart. all of my students who claimed to be bush supporters were either in the lower left or upper left quadrants, although i had one girl who was EXACTLY in the center! the one exception was one student who was in the lower right quadrant. i was noticeably surprised when she showed me her sheet and she asked me if there was something wrong with her! i told her that there was nothing wrong, it was just unusual to find true libertarians--so she was a real catch!
i think it's a pretty accurate quiz, as they use the grid system rather than the line system. anyway, no matter what one thinks of it, it's still interesting (if you like politics, that is!).
Gnu Odor wrote:
Any suggestion that Kerry was "the antiwar candidate" is hardcore revisionism.
to find an 'anti-war candidate' you'd need to build a time machine, then transport yourself to 1968 to vote for eugene mccarthy.
kerry was the 'i'm not bush candidate.' sad as it is, if that was enough to defeat bush, that was fine with me.
Well, there was local all-star Dennis Kucinich: in fact, between my house and my children's school, I (still, over a year past the election) pass one Kerry yard sign and two Kucinich yard signs.
I wasn't allowed to vote in the primaries, but when I heard the results come back from Iowa, and then New Hampshire...
P.S. You and me and the Dalai Lama should have lunch.
Gnu Odor wrote: when I heard the results come back from Iowa, and then New Hampshire...
i presume you mean you actually heard the results. not on TV, but being carried across the wind: WHOOOOOOOOH. YEAHHHHHHHHHHH! *fist in air*!
dennis kucinich is currently employed as a garden gnome in my parents' backyard. he looks simply adorable wearing the little red hat.
Hey Agent Wood, a serious question here, not a windup:
I'm reading the Ten Key Values of the Green Party, and I'm wondering what a country does when encountering, say, an influx of Muslim immigrants.
I mean, you need to respect diversity, certainly, but what do you do when that diversity is so diametrically opposed to the other values, such as feminism and grassroots democracy?
Again, sincere question.
Gnu Odor wrote: Hey Agent Wood, a serious question here, not a windup:
I'm reading the Ten Key Values of the Green Party, and I'm wondering what a country does when encountering, say, an influx of Muslim immigrants.
I mean, you need to respect diversity, certainly, but what do you do when that diversity is so diametrically opposed to the other values, such as feminism and grassroots democracy?
Again, sincere question.
what makes you think that islam is diametrically opposed to feminism? keep in mind, seeing (i.e. the media) is not always believing.
Honor killings, for one. I heard reports of 40-45 in Germany alone in the last 10 years. What to do when sharia conflicts with civil law?
depthcharge wrote:
Ronald Kirsch wrote: Its a matter of intelligence and education. Same thing happened here, well to a lesser extent. Our conservative prime minister set himself up as the people's friend, whilst stirring the patriotic pot. Patriotism works well with the less brainy. If you can paint your opponent as less proud of one's country, then that works real well. This is of course a big hurdle to overcome for any reforming party. "Why do you want to change things? Don't you love your country etc".
Howard went as far as calling himself the best friend the Australian working class has ever had. I think the working class her is slowly waking up that he is not. He gave tax breaks to the rich, he passed more a "liberal" workplace relations bill, he is cracking down on welfare recipiants.
Alternatively, it's got less to do with a perceived lack of intelligence in the electorate here and a lot to do with the fact that everyone seems to enjoy a booming economy and low unemployment.
Odd, that.
:\pimp3:
Yes, but this argument only works as long as the economy is booming. Just wait until the inevitable next recession. How comfortable and relaxed will the Australian worker be then in the newly deregulatred labour market.
I suppose the last ALP leader didn't exactly help the cause either.
Ron do you cunt threads up by accident or is it a talent that requires practice? :D (couldn't happen to a nicer thread)
Steve Campbell wrote: Ron do you cunt threads up by accident or is it a talent that requires practice? :D (couldn't happen to a nicer thread)
i believe i made an entirely innocent comment there.
it's not your comment I meant silly man! note how the broken-ness of this thread begins with your post :)
well i'm not always able to respond to something imediately with the time zone thing and the occaisional bit of sleep.
Would the owner of yet another set of unmatched quote pairs please return to his post and fix them up!
Thread is munted.
:\pimp3:
Gnu Odor wrote: Plus, to be honest, I was fishing for at least one
Sincere? Or not?
AgentWood wrote:
craig's digitalwaters wrote: I think it was CakeClockZwart who posted;
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Go have a look... The Q's take 5 mins.
I'm definately a lefty based on this.... It's obvious that there's a mix of lefties and right wingers on this site, but I think most of us are left of centre.
no, that was me. *cough*
i sit just to the lower left of the dalai lama. when the head of my department took this quiz last year she was so far to the bottom left she was almost off the chart. all of my students who claimed to be bush supporters were either in the lower left or upper left quadrants, although i had one girl who was EXACTLY in the center! the one exception was one student who was in the lower right quadrant. i was noticeably surprised when she showed me her sheet and she asked me if there was something wrong with her! i told her that there was nothing wrong, it was just unusual to find true libertarians--so she was a real catch!
i think it's a pretty accurate quiz, as they use the grid system rather than the line system. anyway, no matter what one thinks of it, it's still interesting (if you like politics, that is!).
Soz Agent for mixing you up... Mucho Kudos to you for finding this site!
Yeah, so where the hell does anyone else here fit on the graph? Bonzette? Anyone?
Bueller?
Gotta tell ya' ... I'm listening to National Public Radio right this moment, and if I lived overseas and this is all I heard about America ... I'd fucking kill myself in despair.
It does help give me perspective, though, on how other countries must see us and how little I know about them.
Kudos on the Bueller mates gawp at me when i do that :)
Yeah, you see...we don't just pull it out of our arses you know....there's a massive industry in the US devoted to making the rest of us think you're all morons. Tom Cruise for instance, read WOTW....and thought it was set in America...I mean...what?
What do ya know...I AM actually completely alien and free minded. no one else on their examples falls near me :)
Steve Campbell wrote:
What do ya know...I AM actually completely alien and free minded. no one else on their examples falls near me :)
Piss off, you fucking authoritarian Nazi communist fascist bastard.
I was thinking, I must be pretty close to being an extremist anti-extremist. Or a grass roots buggerallist
Ronald Kirsch wrote: Yes, but this argument only works as long as the economy is booming. Just wait until the inevitable next recession. How comfortable and relaxed will the Australian worker be then in the newly deregulatred labour market.
I wasn't really referring to what may or may not occur here in the future.
I'm simply suggesting that the longterm tenure of the current government has more to do with successful economic management than any supposed "patriotic" or "friend of the worker" marketing campaigns. I don't know that the electorate here is that gullible.
History shows that if you're overseeing an economy going gangbusters, with a housing boom, low unemployment, vast budget surpluses and so on, you're going to be very hard to dislodge.
The current US conservative experience is a little different.
:\pimp3:
Damn, just erased my own post.
Campo, use your seductive powers over women to get Bonzette to take that quiz.
Bonzette, I just realized where I was being patronising and I apologize. I'm not used to your presence here and must begin to specifically exclude you from the bunch of nimrods I'm used to addressing.
I'd like to see Bonzette's results ( 
) in particular because I'd like to see where one who has been exposed to and studies different political systems would fall on the graph; that is, if one has studied the good and bad points of each quadrant, would one be more likely to land in the center?
Or is the idea of Cartesian coordiantes expanding infinitely from a center point even applicable here? I mean, is the center neutral, and if so, would the world be a better place if we all parked ourselves in the center?
And where the hell is Pope Pius of Nool? He started this mess and ducked out. My short answer: those riding the bus with me in downtown C-town at 7 a.m. in 9 degree F weather to go to work aren't that thrilled with their neighbors who collect a welfare check. Plus, school choice/school vouchers are a big issue among the poor, and the Dems don't dare touch it for fear of the NEA.
P.S. That Gwen Stefani has some big boobs, huh?
His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Maybe one of you smarties like Agentwood or Blue Order can sort this one out for me, but why is it that so many Republicans supporters are people like poor farmers and wage laborers, even though Democrats are more in favor of welfare and a social security net that would help support and subsidize those same poor people! Guess it just proves that family values and olde tyme relijun are more important to some people than having enough money to support their non-aborted children.
The US seems to be run by a coalition of rich plutocrats and not-so-rich Christian fundies. The former get to enrich themselves and benefit from the ever-increasing economic inequality, while the latter get to beat up gays, women who want abortions and anyone who propounds evolution.
I must say I'm intrigued to see how long this can last. The two groups interests aren't ultimately compatible it seems to me.
How can one have a modern scientific nation, and so maximise profits, while banning teaching of evolution? I guess in that regard the plutocrats are dependent on the fundies not spreading out of their heartland.
It makes me groan though when liberals suggest that the poorer Republicans are merely stupid. Not a good way to win friends and influence people, I'd have thought.
His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Maybe one of you smarties like Agentwood or Blue Order can sort this one out for me, but why is it that so many Republicans supporters are people like poor farmers and wage laborers, even though Democrats are more in favor of welfare and a social security net that would help support and subsidize those same poor people! Guess it just proves that family values and olde tyme relijun are more important to some people than having enough money to support their non-aborted children.
......and the interesting converse to this is why inner-city minorities have stood by the dems for so long? What have they gotten for their 40+ years of loyalty? Multi-generational poverty, crumbling infrastructure and failing, unaccountable schools.
By the way, how do you think the dems get their message out on the local level? From the pulpit, that's how.......
404 error wrote: The US seems to be run by a coalition of rich plutocrats and not-so-rich Christian fundies. The former get to enrich themselves and benefit from the ever-increasing economic inequality, while the latter get to beat up gays, women who want abortions and anyone who propounds evolution.
I must say I'm intrigued to see how long this can last. The two groups interests aren't ultimately compatible it seems to me.
How can one have a modern scientific nation, and so maximise profits, while banning teaching of evolution?
For the benefit of, well Campo, who thinks I'm typing this in chains from a government prison:
"Beating up gays?" Is that a slang term for "not passing a national amendment to the Constitution to force states to recognize other states' same-sex marriages?" When I was a kid, beating up gays meant beating up gays.
And "banning the teaching of evolution?" WTF, man! That is not in play anywhere. What is being fought in Dover, Pennsylvania is an attempt to include "Intelligent Design" in classrooms alongside teaching of evolution. Is that a ban? Shit, that's just what the rest of the world needs to hear.
And before you get your panties in a bunch, I'm an atheist, I Darwin and think ID is bullshit. But let's be honest about what's actually happening.
More on "beating up gays":
Yeah, that's me. Gay bashing Gnu. You know why? I live in a "progressive" community that has a "Domestic Partner Registry" (does yours?) and I voted against it. Why? Not just because I'm a conservative and Jesus freak: it's because it was feel-good legislation with no apparent purpose.
So, what is it? You pay $50 at city hall and you're registered. (I'd love to go back to Nazi Germany and explain that, if you're gay, one day you'll want to pay the government to register you).
Only, you don't have to be gay. Get this: you don't even have to live in the same house to be "domestic partners"! (Newspeak anyone?) You just have to be "codependent." What's that mean? Beats the fuck out of me. The ordinance doesn't say. And you can live anywhere. Fuck, I'm gonna register Campo and Missy Jem as domestic partners in my town -- that's how meaningful this is.
What rights do you get? None. Zip. However, if you are already legally married, you're granted the same rights as Registered Domestic Partners, and you don't have to pay the 50 bucks. Wow, that's large.
It's crap. It's embarassing. It sure ain't marriage. But voting against it was somehow "anti-gay." Remind me to get back to the middle name thread and post Gnu "Anti-Gay" Odor.
P.S. Hey there, Tex...
depthcharge wrote:
Ronald Kirsch wrote: Yes, but this argument only works as long as the economy is booming. Just wait until the inevitable next recession. How comfortable and relaxed will the Australian worker be then in the newly deregulatred labour market.
I wasn't really referring to what may or may not occur here in the future.
I'm simply suggesting that the longterm tenure of the current government has more to do with successful economic management than any supposed "patriotic" or "friend of the worker" marketing campaigns. I don't know that the electorate here is that gullible.
History shows that if you're overseeing an economy going gangbusters, with a housing boom, low unemployment, vast budget surpluses and so on, you're going to be very hard to dislodge.
The current US conservative experience is a little different.
:\pimp3:
I actually agree with this. I doesn't however mean that Howard didn't chase down every vote by playing on patriotism.
Anyway the old line that oppositions don't win elections, but that governments loose them, certainly holds true.
I maintain that the oz electorate did not know what the outcome of giving the government majorities in both houses of parliament would mean for them. Then again it is the role of an effective opposition to point this out. Unfortunately too many of the people out there in voter land are too politicaly apathetic to seek out how political decisions may impcact on them, until it is too late. Yes the hip pocket nerve speaks loud and clear, but one should also consider issues other for example how much one is taxed.
twist wrote: How many Republicans are going to South Africa to see Tookie Williams' ashes set free?
:\party: :rip:
It was really nice of Snoop Dogg and Jamie Foxx to travel back in time to contribute to the funeral expenses of the "buddah-heads" Tookie wasted. Mad props fellas.
Gnu Odor wrote: Yeah, so where the hell does anyone else here fit on the graph? Bonzette? Anyone?
Bueller?
Gotta tell ya' ... I'm listening to National Public Radio right this moment, and if I lived overseas and this is all I heard about America ... I'd fucking kill myself in despair.
It does help give me perspective, though, on how other countries must see us and how little I know about them.
i done it! I'm to the left. far left. and FUCKIN PROUD. C'mon!
twist wrote: How many Republicans are going to South Africa to see Tookie Williams' ashes set free?
How many Democrats showed up at my grandfather's funeral?
That's how silly that comment sounded.
It doesn't matter who shows up at who's body mass scattering, in the end it's all just for face and not because the "labeled" people are trying to really "remember" what Tookie did to better himself and others after he was put on the Row.
Bonzette wrote:
i done it! I'm to the left. far left. and FUCKIN PROUD. C'mon!
But the fun of the graph is there are two axes, and that's why the guy came up with the quiz -- because "left" and "right" weren't adequate descriptions.
Plus, that way you can piss off more people: e.g., upper leftists can slag lower leftists and so on.
Anyway, we're both leftists apparently, so there. It's all good in the 'hood.
u came out further left than me? aw piss, pass the hemlock
let's face it tho...I make lettuce look like a fucking radical
Gnu Odor wrote:
Bonzette wrote:
i done it! I'm to the left. far left. and FUCKIN PROUD. C'mon!
But the fun of the graph is there are two axes, and that's why the guy came up with the quiz -- because "left" and "right" weren't adequate descriptions.
Plus, that way you can piss off more people: e.g., upper leftists can slag lower leftists and so on.
Anyway, we're both leftists apparently, so there. It's all good in the 'hood.
No way! Would you believe that. A right wing and a looney lefty coming out "left". That's politics for you!
Personl question............ What is your line of work? Do you work in an office or do you work from home????
Bonzette wrote:
Personl question............ What is your line of work? Do you work in an office or do you work from home????
He usually works from a bell tower if one's available
Steve Campbell wrote:
Bonzette wrote:
Personl question............ What is your line of work? Do you work in an office or do you work from home????
He usually works from a bell tower if one's available
Stop it young Steve, behave yourself!
Steve Campbell wrote:
Bonzette wrote:
Personl question............ What is your line of work? Do you work in an office or do you work from home????
He usually works from a bell tower if one's available
Hahahaha.Killer
Damn it, that's twice today my post has disappeared.
Like I noted earlier, there's a difference between theory and reality. The quiz contains a quote from Karl Marx, out of context and unattributed, and I answered "I agree." The quiz could just as easily include a quote from Thomas Jefferson, "All men are created equal," and I'd have to answer "I disagree," even though I believe that despite those differences we should strive for equality in treatment.
So on paper, at least, I'm an anti-American communist.
I do work in an office, 18 floors above Rock and Roll Avenue, suckling at the corporate teat and editing for The Man, and I work from home now and then as well. What's it to ya?
Boatraceface wrote:
Steve Campbell wrote:
Bonzette wrote:
Personl question............ What is your line of work? Do you work in an office or do you work from home????
He usually works from a bell tower if one's available
Hahahaha.Killer
Dude, they'll let anyone in this thread.
If I do start shooting people at random one day, I've learned I can ghostwrite a couple of children's books about it entitled Don't Shoot People From Bell Towers and Hollywood will throw me a fuckin' hero's funeral.
P.S. In what thread will I find a detailed account of Bonzette's sexist ass-kicking?
True Gnu,True.. its all arse first Life innit?They let anyone on this rock, High horse thread pontificating gobshitery..Where is the Pontiff who started the thread?.He still aint checked back,the sheister
How many Democrats showed up at my grandfather's funeral?
Let's see. Jesse jackson is going to South Africa to honor the founder of the Crips. Louis Farakhan, who I do not think ever votes GOP is going too. I am waiting to see if Rev Al Sharpton and Senator Rangle go. Too bad none of them showed up for the funeral of the four who died for $220.
This is what I see as wrong with Democrats. Sure the death penalty sucks but to honor someone who to his dieing breath still used his street gang name. Wrong priorities.
Herman Goering would be impressed.
Gnu Odor wrote: Honor killings, for one. I heard reports of 40-45 in Germany alone in the last 10 years. What to do when sharia conflicts with civil law?
honor killings are a problem, but it's not practiced by all muslims. thankfully, more and more muslims are speaking out against it and women are organizing against honor killings and female genital mutilation (which is also practiced by christians and animists in africa). islam is as diverse as christianity--there are conservative muslims and liberal muslims as far as interpretation of shari'a law is concerned. islam is, however, the only religion in which women are given the right to divorce their husbands and receive compensation if their husbands are abusive.
personally, i don't think hooters and the proliferation of strip bars is particularly respectful to women, either.
as far as what muslims do when shari'a law conficts with civil law...what do jews do when civil law conflicts with the tenakh, or christians when civil law conflicts with biblical law? it all depends on interpretation.
His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Maybe one of you smarties like Agentwood or Blue Order can sort this one out for me, but why is it that so many Republicans supporters are people like poor farmers and wage laborers, even though Democrats are more in favor of welfare and a social security net that would help support and subsidize those same poor people! Guess it just proves that family values and olde tyme relijun are more important to some people than having enough money to support their non-aborted children.
Since I was asked, I think I'll hijack this thread to answer the original question.
I think there's some sort of innate tendency towards conservatism in our species. Maybe it's biological, in that conservative behavior tends to (but does not guarantee to) result in survival. I don't know. But human societies on the whole tend to be conservative. Of course, that means different things in different societies. Conservative pagan cultures resisted Christianity. Conservative Christian cultures resist multi-culturalism. Conservative Muslims resist western social values. Conservative American capitalists resist socialism. Conservative Russian socialists resist capitalism.
There also tends to be an urban-rural divide worldwide, with rural communities espousing traditional values, and urban communities embracing change. It probably has something to do with the cosmopolitan nature of urban communities, being exposed to other ways of thinking, not seeing one way of thinking as the "only way."
In the U.S., contemporary conservative values tend to be social conservatism (as distinguished from economic conservatism), with the agenda set by conservative Christian churches. I remember seeing recently that one church, or perhaps one televangelist-- can't remember which-- told its congregation to vote based on their conservative Christian beliefs (I'm differentiating here between conservative Christian beliefs and Christian beliefs), and not on their pocketbooks.
I think there's also some interesting psychology-- which I'm not qualified to comment on at length-- going on among the wage laborers who support fiscal policies antithetical to their own interests. One element of this psychology is a sense of self-reliance that plays out like this: "I bust my ass all day long to put food on the table, and I'll be damned if I'm going to work and pay taxes so some mofo who's too lazy to work can sit on his ass all day." So the poor wage laborer and the poor farmer vote for the guy who promises to cut taxes for the wealthy by sticking it to the poor.
Another element of that psychology is the disdain for the poor that grew out of protestantism. Under the doctrine of pre-determination, which came out of Calvinism, it was believed that most of humanity was pre-determined to eternal damnation, and that only a select few souls would be saved. People wanted to know if they would be saved, or condemened to eternal damnation, so they looked for signs of God's grace. The obvious sign of God's grace, it was believed, was wealth. So the wealthy were considered to have received God's grace, and the poor were considered to be predestined to hell. Read Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. This belief in pre-determination led to a contempt for the poor, and was the foundation of pre-revolutionary American society.
One final interesting note about the psychology of voting against one's own interests is the American belief in upward mobility, coupled with a discounting of social class as a phenomena that tends to determine outcome. This belief in upward mobility leads to a denial about the realities of one’s own economic status, and thus, creates the circumstances which facilitate the ability of poor wage laborers and farmers to vote against their own economic interests.
good point about social conservatism in the US, champers. conservative political parties in europe are nowhere near as socially conservative as conservative republicans are in the united states.
personally, i don't think hooters and the proliferation of strip bars is particularly respectful to women, either.
The US and the Islamic world are at opposite ends of the spectrum in this regard. It's just we only here about women being stoned to death for extracurricular sex in Saudi Arabia, teachers being killed in Afghanistan for educating girls. Please name an Islamic country that allows women to divorce her husband.
90% of politicians are barstewards whether left or right. They all cave in, either partially or completely to the insistence of capitalism once in office.
I say scrap the political parties. Let's have real democracies and real politicians. Lets see MP's have free votes on everything.
There's only a wafer of difference between mainstream right and left wing parties nowadays, so free up the lot of them!
twist wrote:
personally, i don't think hooters and the proliferation of strip bars is particularly respectful to women, either.
The US and the islamic world are at opposite ends of the spectrum in this regard. It's just we only here about women being stoned to death for extracurricular sex in Saudi Arabia, teachers being killed in Afghanistan for educating girls. Please name an Islamic country that allows women to divorce her husband.
pakistan jordan iran iraq
...for example; i'm sure there are many others. however, the grounds by which women can seek a divorce differ from sect to sect.
there have been two shows in britain about divorce in islamic countries: one about pakistan (it was kind of like watching 'divorce court' here), and one about divorce in iran.
pakistan jordan iraq iran
With the exception of Jordan these are all powder keg nations. I am suprised Pakistan has lasted this long without a revolution. I still would not want to live in any of those nations except maybe Jordan. I'll take the strip clubs and no Santa or Jesus in schools.
twist wrote:
pakistan jordan iraq iran
I am suprised Pakistan has lasted this long without a revolution.
i'm surprised india and pakistan haven't blown each other up in a nuclear war. they've come damn close several times.
India: The world's largest democracy that the the US ignored for years. I think both nations believe that a war between them would be very counterproductive.
Counterproductive is a teeny understatement when contemplating death tolls with that many 0's....we're talking WW II figures in the first 2 mins.
there is a very uneasy peace betwen both countries. since independence there have been three wars between them. even when not officialy at war there was constant shooting at the disputed border region of Kashmir. with the recent earthquake there has been a increasing coopertion between India an Pakistan. there is however no reason to believe that the tensions have disappeared. it would be quite easy for a government to stir up nationalist furvor to draw attention away from domestic issues, however with both counties now being acknoleged nuclear powers, a war between both countries would definitely not be in their best interests. as long as the leaderships in both countries recognize this a major war between them should not occur.
twist wrote:
pakistan jordan iraq iran
With the exception of Jordan these are all powder keg nations. I am suprised Pakistan has lasted this long without a revolution. I still would not want to live in any of those nations except maybe Jordan. I'll take the strip clubs and no Santa or Jesus in schools.
well in Pakistan there was a military coup not that long ago. the current government there is still closely allied to the military, just precicly to prevent any sort of revolution. the government there has a hard time on keeping a lid on the revolutionaries there, so who knows what will happen there in the future, but given what happened in Afgahnistan, a revolution in Pakistan is currently very unlikely.
twist wrote: India: The world's largest democracy that the the US ignored for years. I think both nations believe that a war between them would be very counterproductive.
sometimes they feel this way. my friend fiona wrote her PhD thesis on the threat of a nuclear war between india and pakistan and she believes that they will go at it someday unless the kashmir issue is decided soon. i believe this is one case where a nuclear war can remain tactical--probably the only case because i doubt the other nuclear powers will dare risk global nuclear war over these two nations. and there's nothing the IAEA can do as neither india nor pakistan is a party to the NPT.
AgentWood wrote:
twist wrote: India: The world's largest democracy that the the US ignored for years. I think both nations believe that a war between them would be very counterproductive.
sometimes they feel this way. my friend fiona wrote her PhD thesis on the threat of a nuclear war between india and pakistan and she believes that they will go at it someday unless the kashmir issue is decided soon. i believe this is one case where a nuclear war can remain tactical--probably the only case because i doubt the other nuclear powers will dare risk global nuclear war over these two nations. and there's nothing the IAEA can do as neither india nor pakistan is a party to the NPT.
i just hope that it doesn't come to a nuclear war between india and pakistan, and that the nuclear weapons they have exist purely for deterrence purposes. i e to prevent a war between them. however now that they have them, if there should be a war, the temptation to go nuclear would be huge.
Gnu Odor wrote:
404 error wrote: The US seems to be run by a coalition of rich plutocrats and not-so-rich Christian fundies. The former get to enrich themselves and benefit from the ever-increasing economic inequality, while the latter get to beat up gays, women who want abortions and anyone who propounds evolution.
I must say I'm intrigued to see how long this can last. The two groups interests aren't ultimately compatible it seems to me.
How can one have a modern scientific nation, and so maximise profits, while banning teaching of evolution?
For the benefit of, well Campo, who thinks I'm typing this in chains from a government prison:
"Beating up gays?" Is that a slang term for "not passing a national amendment to the Constitution to force states to recognize other states' same-sex marriages?" When I was a kid, beating up gays meant beating up gays.
And "banning the teaching of evolution?" WTF, man! That is not in play anywhere. What is being fought in Dover, Pennsylvania is an attempt to include "Intelligent Design" in classrooms alongside teaching of evolution. Is that a ban? Shit, that's just what the rest of the world needs to hear.
And before you get your panties in a bunch, I'm an atheist, I
For someone who's not a bible-basher you seem fond of literal readings! Obviously I meant it metaphorically, as in politically beating up...perhaps I should have said 'beating up on'? Though when it comes to folk like that preacher who used to hang round the site of Matthew Shepard's murder with a placard declaring he was 'burning in hell' and got what he 'deserved', it may apply literally.
Denying gays equivalent rights to heteros (including pre-emptively banning anti-discrimination laws) qualifies as 'beating up' metaphorically at least.
I'm not aiming this at you personally but it is a fact that a portion of the Republican electoral base are folk who would have homosexuality, abortion and the teaching of evolution banned. The fact that they haven't suceeded in getting their agenda implented is beside the point, or maybe it is the whole point, that those who are using them for electoral support daren't risk giving them too much because their interests aren't ultimately compatible.
And the current ID controversy is hardly the whole story about evolution in the education system, as I'm sure you know.
e.g. a quick google turns up this from the Observer:
"In 1999 Kansas Board of Education voted to block mention of Darwin in its schools but members were voted out and their anti-evolution policy was reversed.
But creationists have been quietly notching up a series of victories elsewhere. The Scientific American survey by Lawrence Lerner, of California State University, shows that in northern states such as Illinois, Ohio and Wisconsin creationism has taken a powerful grip on education at local level, despite each state's strong liberal tradition. Ohio is considering banning evolution teaching, and even New York and Massachusetts are turning against evolution."
