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His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Maybe one of you smarties like Agentwood or Blue Order can sort this one out for me, but why is it that so many Republicans supporters are people like poor farmers and wage laborers, even though Democrats are more in favor of welfare and a social security net that would help support and subsidize those same poor people! Guess it just proves that family values and olde tyme relijun are more important to some people than having enough money to support their non-aborted children.

......and the interesting converse to this is why inner-city minorities have stood by the dems for so long? What have they gotten for their 40+ years of loyalty? Multi-generational poverty, crumbling infrastructure and failing, unaccountable schools.

By the way, how do you think the dems get their message out on the local level? From the pulpit, that's how.......

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404 error wrote: The US seems to be run by a coalition of rich plutocrats and not-so-rich Christian fundies. The former get to enrich themselves and benefit from the ever-increasing economic inequality, while the latter get to beat up gays, women who want abortions and anyone who propounds evolution.

I must say I'm intrigued to see how long this can last. The two groups interests aren't ultimately compatible it seems to me.

How can one have a modern scientific nation, and so maximise profits, while banning teaching of evolution?

For the benefit of, well Campo, who thinks I'm typing this in chains from a government prison:

"Beating up gays?" Is that a slang term for "not passing a national amendment to the Constitution to force states to recognize other states' same-sex marriages?" When I was a kid, beating up gays meant beating up gays.

And "banning the teaching of evolution?" WTF, man! That is not in play anywhere. What is being fought in Dover, Pennsylvania is an attempt to include "Intelligent Design" in classrooms alongside teaching of evolution. Is that a ban? Shit, that's just what the rest of the world needs to hear.

And before you get your panties in a bunch, I'm an atheist, I :love: Darwin and think ID is bullshit. But let's be honest about what's actually happening.

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More on "beating up gays":

Yeah, that's me. Gay bashing Gnu. You know why? I live in a "progressive" community that has a "Domestic Partner Registry" (does yours?) and I voted against it. Why? Not just because I'm a conservative and Jesus freak: it's because it was feel-good legislation with no apparent purpose.

So, what is it? You pay $50 at city hall and you're registered. (I'd love to go back to Nazi Germany and explain that, if you're gay, one day you'll want to pay the government to register you).

Only, you don't have to be gay. Get this: you don't even have to live in the same house to be "domestic partners"! (Newspeak anyone?) You just have to be "codependent." What's that mean? Beats the fuck out of me. The ordinance doesn't say. And you can live anywhere. Fuck, I'm gonna register Campo and Missy Jem as domestic partners in my town -- that's how meaningful this is.

What rights do you get? None. Zip. However, if you are already legally married, you're granted the same rights as Registered Domestic Partners, and you don't have to pay the 50 bucks. Wow, that's large.

It's crap. It's embarassing. It sure ain't marriage. But voting against it was somehow "anti-gay." Remind me to get back to the middle name thread and post Gnu "Anti-Gay" Odor.

P.S. Hey there, Tex... :wink: :love:

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depthcharge wrote:

Ronald Kirsch wrote: Yes, but this argument only works as long as the economy is booming. Just wait until the inevitable next recession. How comfortable and relaxed will the Australian worker be then in the newly deregulatred labour market.

I wasn't really referring to what may or may not occur here in the future.

I'm simply suggesting that the longterm tenure of the current government has more to do with successful economic management than any supposed "patriotic" or "friend of the worker" marketing campaigns. I don't know that the electorate here is that gullible.

History shows that if you're overseeing an economy going gangbusters, with a housing boom, low unemployment, vast budget surpluses and so on, you're going to be very hard to dislodge.

The current US conservative experience is a little different.

:\pimp3:

I actually agree with this. I doesn't however mean that Howard didn't chase down every vote by playing on patriotism.
Anyway the old line that oppositions don't win elections, but that governments loose them, certainly holds true.

I maintain that the oz electorate did not know what the outcome of giving the government majorities in both houses of parliament would mean for them. Then again it is the role of an effective opposition to point this out. Unfortunately too many of the people out there in voter land are too politicaly apathetic to seek out how political decisions may impcact on them, until it is too late. Yes the hip pocket nerve speaks loud and clear, but one should also consider issues other for example how much one is taxed.

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How many Republicans are going to South Africa to see Tookie Williams' ashes set free?

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twist wrote: How many Republicans are going to South Africa to see Tookie Williams' ashes set free?

:\party: :rip:

It was really nice of Snoop Dogg and Jamie Foxx to travel back in time to contribute to the funeral expenses of the "buddah-heads" Tookie wasted. Mad props fellas.

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Gnu Odor wrote: Yeah, so where the hell does anyone else here fit on the graph? Bonzette? Anyone?

Bueller?

Gotta tell ya' ... I'm listening to National Public Radio right this moment, and if I lived overseas and this is all I heard about America ... I'd fucking kill myself in despair.

It does help give me perspective, though, on how other countries must see us and how little I know about them.

i done it! I'm to the left. far left. and FUCKIN PROUD. C'mon!

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twist wrote: How many Republicans are going to South Africa to see Tookie Williams' ashes set free?

How many Democrats showed up at my grandfather's funeral?

That's how silly that comment sounded. :evil4:

It doesn't matter who shows up at who's body mass scattering, in the end it's all just for face and not because the "labeled" people are trying to really "remember" what Tookie did to better himself and others after he was put on the Row.

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Bonzette wrote:

i done it! I'm to the left. far left. and FUCKIN PROUD. C'mon!

But the fun of the graph is there are two axes, and that's why the guy came up with the quiz -- because "left" and "right" weren't adequate descriptions.

Plus, that way you can piss off more people: e.g., upper leftists can slag lower leftists and so on.

Anyway, we're both leftists apparently, so there. It's all good in the 'hood.

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u came out further left than me? aw piss, pass the hemlock

let's face it tho...I make lettuce look like a fucking radical

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Gnu Odor wrote:

Bonzette wrote:

i done it! I'm to the left. far left. and FUCKIN PROUD. C'mon!

But the fun of the graph is there are two axes, and that's why the guy came up with the quiz -- because "left" and "right" weren't adequate descriptions.

Plus, that way you can piss off more people: e.g., upper leftists can slag lower leftists and so on.

Anyway, we're both leftists apparently, so there. It's all good in the 'hood.

No way! Would you believe that. A right wing and a looney lefty coming out "left". That's politics for you!

Personl question............ What is your line of work? Do you work in an office or do you work from home????

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Bonzette wrote:

Personl question............ What is your line of work? Do you work in an office or do you work from home????

He usually works from a bell tower if one's available

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Steve Campbell wrote:

Bonzette wrote:

Personl question............ What is your line of work? Do you work in an office or do you work from home????

He usually works from a bell tower if one's available

:abovelol:

Stop it young Steve, behave yourself!

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Steve Campbell wrote:

Bonzette wrote:

Personl question............ What is your line of work? Do you work in an office or do you work from home????

He usually works from a bell tower if one's available

Hahahaha.Killer:bow:

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Damn it, that's twice today my post has disappeared.

Like I noted earlier, there's a difference between theory and reality. The quiz contains a quote from Karl Marx, out of context and unattributed, and I answered "I agree." The quiz could just as easily include a quote from Thomas Jefferson, "All men are created equal," and I'd have to answer "I disagree," even though I believe that despite those differences we should strive for equality in treatment.

So on paper, at least, I'm an anti-American communist.

I do work in an office, 18 floors above Rock and Roll Avenue, suckling at the corporate teat and editing for The Man, and I work from home now and then as well. What's it to ya?

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Boatraceface wrote:

Steve Campbell wrote:

Bonzette wrote:

Personl question............ What is your line of work? Do you work in an office or do you work from home????

He usually works from a bell tower if one's available

Hahahaha.Killer:bow:

Dude, they'll let anyone in this thread.

If I do start shooting people at random one day, I've learned I can ghostwrite a couple of children's books about it entitled Don't Shoot People From Bell Towers and Hollywood will throw me a fuckin' hero's funeral.

P.S. In what thread will I find a detailed account of Bonzette's sexist ass-kicking?

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True Gnu,True.. its all arse first Life innit?They let anyone on this rock, High horse thread pontificating gobshitery..Where is the Pontiff who started the thread?.He still aint checked back,the sheister:laugh:

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How many Democrats showed up at my grandfather's funeral?

Let's see. Jesse jackson is going to South Africa to honor the founder of the Crips. Louis Farakhan, who I do not think ever votes GOP is going too. I am waiting to see if Rev Al Sharpton and Senator Rangle go. Too bad none of them showed up for the funeral of the four who died for $220.

This is what I see as wrong with Democrats. Sure the death penalty sucks but to honor someone who to his dieing breath still used his street gang name. Wrong priorities.

Herman Goering would be impressed.

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Of course Reagan went to Bitburg but at least that was for the sake of Herman-US relations.

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Gnu Odor wrote: Honor killings, for one. I heard reports of 40-45 in Germany alone in the last 10 years. What to do when sharia conflicts with civil law?

honor killings are a problem, but it's not practiced by all muslims. thankfully, more and more muslims are speaking out against it and women are organizing against honor killings and female genital mutilation (which is also practiced by christians and animists in africa). islam is as diverse as christianity--there are conservative muslims and liberal muslims as far as interpretation of shari'a law is concerned. islam is, however, the only religion in which women are given the right to divorce their husbands and receive compensation if their husbands are abusive.

personally, i don't think hooters and the proliferation of strip bars is particularly respectful to women, either.

as far as what muslims do when shari'a law conficts with civil law...what do jews do when civil law conflicts with the tenakh, or christians when civil law conflicts with biblical law? it all depends on interpretation.

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His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Maybe one of you smarties like Agentwood or Blue Order can sort this one out for me, but why is it that so many Republicans supporters are people like poor farmers and wage laborers, even though Democrats are more in favor of welfare and a social security net that would help support and subsidize those same poor people! Guess it just proves that family values and olde tyme relijun are more important to some people than having enough money to support their non-aborted children.

Since I was asked, I think I'll hijack this thread to answer the original question.

I think there's some sort of innate tendency towards conservatism in our species. Maybe it's biological, in that conservative behavior tends to (but does not guarantee to) result in survival. I don't know. But human societies on the whole tend to be conservative. Of course, that means different things in different societies. Conservative pagan cultures resisted Christianity. Conservative Christian cultures resist multi-culturalism. Conservative Muslims resist western social values. Conservative American capitalists resist socialism. Conservative Russian socialists resist capitalism.

There also tends to be an urban-rural divide worldwide, with rural communities espousing traditional values, and urban communities embracing change. It probably has something to do with the cosmopolitan nature of urban communities, being exposed to other ways of thinking, not seeing one way of thinking as the "only way."

In the U.S., contemporary conservative values tend to be social conservatism (as distinguished from economic conservatism), with the agenda set by conservative Christian churches. I remember seeing recently that one church, or perhaps one televangelist-- can't remember which-- told its congregation to vote based on their conservative Christian beliefs (I'm differentiating here between conservative Christian beliefs and Christian beliefs), and not on their pocketbooks.

I think there's also some interesting psychology-- which I'm not qualified to comment on at length-- going on among the wage laborers who support fiscal policies antithetical to their own interests. One element of this psychology is a sense of self-reliance that plays out like this: "I bust my ass all day long to put food on the table, and I'll be damned if I'm going to work and pay taxes so some mofo who's too lazy to work can sit on his ass all day." So the poor wage laborer and the poor farmer vote for the guy who promises to cut taxes for the wealthy by sticking it to the poor.

Another element of that psychology is the disdain for the poor that grew out of protestantism. Under the doctrine of pre-determination, which came out of Calvinism, it was believed that most of humanity was pre-determined to eternal damnation, and that only a select few souls would be saved. People wanted to know if they would be saved, or condemened to eternal damnation, so they looked for signs of God's grace. The obvious sign of God's grace, it was believed, was wealth. So the wealthy were considered to have received God's grace, and the poor were considered to be predestined to hell. Read Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. This belief in pre-determination led to a contempt for the poor, and was the foundation of pre-revolutionary American society.

One final interesting note about the psychology of voting against one's own interests is the American belief in upward mobility, coupled with a discounting of social class as a phenomena that tends to determine outcome. This belief in upward mobility leads to a denial about the realities of one’s own economic status, and thus, creates the circumstances which facilitate the ability of poor wage laborers and farmers to vote against their own economic interests.

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good point about social conservatism in the US, champers. conservative political parties in europe are nowhere near as socially conservative as conservative republicans are in the united states.

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personally, i don't think hooters and the proliferation of strip bars is particularly respectful to women, either.

The US and the Islamic world are at opposite ends of the spectrum in this regard. It's just we only here about women being stoned to death for extracurricular sex in Saudi Arabia, teachers being killed in Afghanistan for educating girls. Please name an Islamic country that allows women to divorce her husband.

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90% of politicians are barstewards whether left or right. They all cave in, either partially or completely to the insistence of capitalism once in office.

I say scrap the political parties. Let's have real democracies and real politicians. Lets see MP's have free votes on everything.

There's only a wafer of difference between mainstream right and left wing parties nowadays, so free up the lot of them!

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twist wrote:

personally, i don't think hooters and the proliferation of strip bars is particularly respectful to women, either.

The US and the islamic world are at opposite ends of the spectrum in this regard. It's just we only here about women being stoned to death for extracurricular sex in Saudi Arabia, teachers being killed in Afghanistan for educating girls. Please name an Islamic country that allows women to divorce her husband.

pakistan jordan iran iraq

...for example; i'm sure there are many others. however, the grounds by which women can seek a divorce differ from sect to sect.

there have been two shows in britain about divorce in islamic countries: one about pakistan (it was kind of like watching 'divorce court' here), and one about divorce in iran.

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pakistan jordan iraq iran

With the exception of Jordan these are all powder keg nations. I am suprised Pakistan has lasted this long without a revolution. I still would not want to live in any of those nations except maybe Jordan. I'll take the strip clubs and no Santa or Jesus in schools.

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lot of stuff on this thread reads really well through a 10Hz square wave ring mod

try it

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twist wrote:

pakistan jordan iraq iran

I am suprised Pakistan has lasted this long without a revolution.

i'm surprised india and pakistan haven't blown each other up in a nuclear war. they've come damn close several times.

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India: The world's largest democracy that the the US ignored for years. I think both nations believe that a war between them would be very counterproductive.

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Counterproductive is a teeny understatement when contemplating death tolls with that many 0's....we're talking WW II figures in the first 2 mins.

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