Was Ian Curtis really that good?

Is all the praise heaped on IC really deserved? I mean whilst he was a great lyricist he really couldn't sing and in my opinion his voice spoilt a lot of the songs.

The reason I listen to Joy Division is purely because of the brilliant music itself and this was all done by Barney, Hooky and Stephen. These three were the most important elements of the band, not Ian Curtis and they proved it by moving on to do more fantastic stuff as New Order.

Well yes and no. The rest of JD wrote the music for the songs, but have all admitted that Ian was the Quality Control, and it was his ear for a riff that often saw song ideas transform into the tunes that we now know and love. I used to share the belief that his contribution was over-rated as well, but revised the opinion over a period of 20+ years from listening to and corresponding with a number of fellow travellers.

I have no doubts at all that the myth of Ian as "tortured genius" has been blown out of all proportion - death affords that to the sensationalist. He was undoubtedly a rather off-beat character, with a different set of values and perspective to the norm, but not unique. As a lyricist, he was exceptional, displaying both a maturity of writing and a wafer-thin naivite at the same time, baring his soul to all who knew how to look at the lyrics and understand who and why. As a vocalist he was not particularly competent, but as a front-man and performer he had a captivating charisma that was both genuinely unsettling and fascinating at the same time.

Originally posted by KnownPleasures Well yes and no. The rest of JD wrote the music for the songs, but have all admitted that Ian was the Quality Control, and it was his ear for a riff that often saw song ideas transform into the tunes that we now know and love. I used to share the belief that his contribution was over-rated as well, but revised the opinion over a period of 20+ years from listening to and corresponding with a number of fellow travellers.I have no doubts at all that the myth of Ian as "tortured genius" has been blown out of all proportion - death affords that to the sensationalist. He was undoubtedly a rather off-beat character, with a different set of values and perspective to the norm, but not unique. As a lyricist, he was exceptional, displaying both a maturity of writing and a wafer-thin naivite at the same time, baring his soul to all who knew how to look at the lyrics and understand who and why. As a vocalist he was not particularly competent, but as a front-man and performer he had a captivating charisma that was both genuinely unsettling and fascinating at the same time.

Nice analysis

Originally posted by five hates six > Originally posted by KnownPleasures Well yes and no. The rest of JD wrote the music for the songs, but have all admitted that Ian was the Quality Control, and it was his ear for a riff that often saw song ideas transform into the tunes that we now know and love. I used to share the belief that his contribution was over-rated as well, but revised the opinion over a period of 20+ years from listening to and corresponding with a number of fellow travellers.I have no doubts at all that the myth of Ian as "tortured genius" has been blown out of all proportion - death affords that to the sensationalist. He was undoubtedly a rather off-beat character, with a different set of values and perspective to the norm, but not unique. As a lyricist, he was exceptional, displaying both a maturity of writing and a wafer-thin naivite at the same time, baring his soul to all who knew how to look at the lyrics and understand who and why. As a vocalist he was not particularly competent, but as a front-man and performer he had a captivating charisma that was both genuinely unsettling and fascinating at the same time.

Nice analysis Agreed! Ian may not have been a gifted vocalist but then again I'd say that most of the 'important' singers that came from the punk period (eg. Ian, John Lydon, Siouxsie, Howard Devoto, Mark E. Smith) were not what you'd call gifted vocalists but they were all charismatic front people and performers (to paraphrase Tim!). Unfortunately Ian's death tends to cloud the issue when it comes to analysing his talent...

Originally posted by Keith Hughes Is all the praise heaped on IC really deserved? I mean whilst he was a great lyricist he really couldn't sing and in my opinion his voice spoilt a lot of the songs.The reason I listen to Joy Division is purely because of the brilliant music itself and this was all done by Barney, Hooky and Stephen. These three were the most important elements of the band, not Ian Curtis and they proved it by moving on to do more fantastic stuff as New Order.

Keith, mate, it's very, very difficult for a fan to take this lightly, being that it is the very nature of being a fan that leads you to be partial rather than impartial, passionate rather than rational, so and so forth. So it's with great restraint that I don't shout out WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ON ABOUT, MAN?? HAVE YOU COMPLETELY LOST YOUR FUCKIN PLOT?? (Only joking though, eh! )

Well, it all boils down to opinions, does it not? Pop musicians are hardly the best at their craft, technically speaking, and it's probably much more the charm and the allure rather than their techincal ability that draw fans. I mean, what to say of the likes of Bob Dylan and Lou Reed, then?

I say: take them as they come, and listen to some more jazz if technical virtuose is what you're going for.

The legend says the Hooky way of playing bass is Ian's "guilt".

I do believe Ian was JD's soul. The others were (great) instruments.

The brilliant music aside, I believe Ian had a great voice - not the strongest, but distinctive. Same for Bernard. I'd rather have distinctive rather than strong any day. You know it's JD or NO when they come on the radio. The music and the vocals are both unique in style. So yes, they are all geniuses and important and unique. That's why we are all here.

Originally posted by Philip Collins **> Originally posted by five hates six> > > > Originally posted by Known>**Pleasures Well yes and no. The rest of JD wrote the music for the songs, but have all admitted that Ian was the Quality Control, and it was his ear for a riff that often saw song ideas transform into the tunes that we now know and love. I used to share the belief that his contribution was over-rated as well, but revised the opinion over a period of 20+ years from listening to and corresponding with a number of fellow travellers.I have no doubts at all that the myth of Ian as "tortured genius" has been blown out of all proportion - death affords that to the sensationalist. He was undoubtedly a rather off-beat character, with a different set of values and perspective to the norm, but not unique. As a lyricist, he was exceptional, displaying both a maturity of writing and a wafer-thin naivite at the same time, baring his soul to all who knew how to look at the lyrics and understand who and why. As a vocalist he was not particularly competent, but as a front-man and performer he had a captivating charisma that was both genuinely unsettling and fascinating at the same time.

Nice analysis Agreed! Ian may not have been a gifted vocalist but then again I'd say that most of the 'important' singers that came from the punk period (eg. Ian, John Lydon, Siouxsie, Howard Devoto, Mark E. Smith) were not what you'd call gifted vocalists but they were all charismatic front people and performers (to paraphrase Tim!). Unfortunately Ian's death tends to cloud the issue when it comes to analysing his talent... I agree with both of you. While he certainly wasn't the best of vocalists (his voice puts off many first-time listeners, I've noticed), he made up for it with help from technology and commanding stage presence (though I have no first hand knowledge of this because I'm only a young waif). His lyrics are the best thing he did, and they are much better than most anything Barney could write; it just seems impossible to separate the events of his life from the music and lyrics itself.

Keith, you are a southern ponce, stick to shite like Suede and other southern queers

yes! ian was important for joy division.

i remember reading an interview with barney where he said: ian's dead was like ripping your (right?) arm(s) off. if you listen to movement you know what he means

I can't imagine them with any other singer, or lyrics.

Originally posted by Lee Curzon Keith, you are a southern ponce, stick to shite like Suede and other southern queers

Less of the southern bollocks - go and dig yourself out of your snowdrift!

Originally posted by Lee Curzon Keith, you are a southern ponce, stick to shite like Suede and other southern queers

Good to see the community standards being upheld in this and other posts today.......

I think Debbie and Annik would be the judges of that...oh, you meant singing-wise ( :p )

I think his vocal style is certainly distinctive, and one of the things that always makes me come back to JD is his way of singing. He may not win "American Idol" anytime soon, but his style was perfectly suited for the musical direction of the group, and it's a testament to his uniqueness that the band quit any aspirations to be "doom and gloom" (at least musically if not lyrically) after Movement.

Overall, I've always thought Barney was the more natural vocalist (at least that was my first impression of it), but Ian is tops as well. The fact that there's not a lot of Ian-impersonators out there (by that I mean vocalists who go for the sort of low voice that he had while singing) shows you the greatness of his approach, imho

You crack me up most times Tabsy, but this first line to this one has got me in stitches !!!!

As for the singing bit, have you ever heard him talk ? High-pitched and nasal. Suffice to say that the vocal noise you heard wasn't natural, it was a nasal whine wound down a couple of tones by technology.

This reminds me of a quote from Leonard Cohen on one of his first gigs, worrying about his singing voice. Apparently he told a taxi driver his concerns, and his reply was (to paraphrase) "If I wanted to hear a good singing voice, I'd go to the opera - don't worry about it!"

l8rs,

Nick :D

Originally posted by KnownPleasures You crack me up most times Tabsy, but this first line to this one has got me in stitches !!!! As for the singing bit, have you ever heard him talk ? High-pitched and nasal. Suffice to say that the vocal noise you heard wasn't natural, it was a nasal whine wound down a couple of tones by technology.

Yes, and I remember how cheated I felt when I first learned this...now I couldn't care less, doesn't take away from the enjoyment of JD at all.

Ian's voice suited the songs he sang. That's pretty much the only thing I can say.

Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance.......Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance.......Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance.......Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance.......Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance.......Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance....Listen to Chance.......Listen to Chance....

Originally posted by Keith Hughes These three were the most important elements of the band, not Ian Curtis and they proved it by moving on to do more fantastic stuff as New Order.

Shocking post.

Give me JD anytime. IMO IC does NOT get the credit he deserved.

NO have done nothing anywhere near the intensity of New Dawn Fades and do not tell me that the lyrics are not a VITAL part of that song.

DM PS Get well soon Al Jarvis (Robo Cop) and yes it is 4.20am here.

I never said that JD weren't any good. Merely that my main reason for liking them so much is not because of IC. I thought it was worth highlighting the fact that in my opinion Barney, Steve and Hooky's roles in the band were very much underated. Maybe they are all geniuses.

Anyway, thanks for all your input it was interesting reading. I particularly liked being called a southern ponce, considering that I grew up in Liverpool and happen to know Crewe very well (my parents now live in Sandbach). I just reside in Essex at the moment due to work. In fact LeeCurzon@hotmail.com you are more Southern than me! so naturally that must make you a big girl's blouse.

I'm technically a Southerner...but of the gap-toothed, incest-crazy, US kind

Taboo, that would make you a "cracker."

Originally posted by Keith Hughes Is all the praise heaped on IC really deserved? I mean whilst he was a great lyricist he really couldn't sing and in my opinion his voice spoilt a lot of the songs.The reason I listen to Joy Division is purely because of the brilliant music itself and this was all done by Barney, Hooky and Stephen. These three were the most important elements of the band, not Ian Curtis and they proved it by moving on to do more fantastic stuff as New Order.

Thank God for Paul Youngs LWTUA then eh ? Proper singer that lad, carries a tune and all that, do well on t'club circuit .

Originally posted by twist Taboo, that would make you a "cracker."

Yee haw! Scuse me, y'all; me and Bo gotta go get chased by Roscoe and Boss Hogg

Why Daisy, them shure are short shorts you got on there

Found a picture of my car...

Overall, I've always thought Barney was the more natural vocalist (at least that was my first impression of it), but Ian is tops as well.

You gotta be on something there man ? Have you not heard Mr. Sumner live ?? Holy cow. Talk about the need for some technology there. I'm a big New Order fan, but come on, Ian was a far superior singer and would have been huge if he'd lived. They were all great, but Ian was truly gifted as a singer and writer. Don't tell me that the vocals on Transmission don't cut through any crap thats out there today, and that was done some 20 + years ago !! Before computers (as we know them) and PRO TOOLS !!!. Thank God technology improved, so that Bernard's singing (and a key change i might add) could improve as well. Don't get me wrong, I really like Bernard's style of singing, but he is not a natural at all. He can't even sing and play at the same time (watch the Montreaux section of the New Order story). Overall, I really like both of their voices, but Ian had serious talent.

i need ice cream

he may not have been technically good, but his voice made the songs sound special so that they hit people in different ways

genius

Originally posted by Keith Hughes Is all the praise heaped on IC really deserved? I mean whilst he was a great lyricist he really couldn't sing and in my opinion his voice spoilt a lot of the songs.The reason I listen to Joy Division is purely because of the brilliant music itself and this was all done by Barney, Hooky and Stephen. These three were the most important elements of the band, not Ian Curtis and they proved it by moving on to do more fantastic stuff as New Order.

:violent2::stupid: BLASPHEMY!!!!!!! How darest thou maketh such fools tongue about Ian!!:\pissedoff: What's a brother gonna do? He's fookin' dead!! Show some respect!!

Now...on a lighter note, Tabsy...when you're done with Daisy Duke, lemme at her!! YEEEEEEHAAAA!!!

I'm with Chunks on this

fucking brilliant

At the time IAN was fronting the band compare him with all the PUNK frontman and you would realize that he was CLASS.He delivered songs with such passion and clarity that even today i think he was the main force of the brilliant band.Shame about what he did but nontheless i am deeply grateful for the time he spent on earth making such superb songs.Not been many since him that have really made such impact but BARNEY did improve and has done a great job since. RESPECT

Another point which a lot of people forget is that this guy was only 23 when he did his deed, to write songs like that at such a young is genius in its own right. I saw in a magazine a year or so ago a poll on the greatest frontmen of all time and in the top ten was the main man himself, class

well i dont think slagging kieth off is what he was asking is it? hes merely raising a point of debate. ive been a fan since transmission first came out and i can still remember buying it in malcoms musicland in chorley lancs uk 7inch with crab nebulea pic on sleve and in them days they would pop it on in the shop so you could hear it before u paid for it,i still giggle to myself remembering the lass behind the counter thinking shed put it on 33 instead of 45 cos of the sound of ians voice,which brings me to my point. i personally think that ian is one of the great frontmen of all time,and had he have lived his prescence over the uk if not world music industry would have been immence. many others in this thread have commented on ians passion,energy,charisma,ect. but for me he was like a hand in a glove (he just fit),i cant explain what it was but the music and his voice was just awsome to hear. we still hear lwtua and various other tracks still played today on the radio,tv and film ect 23 years after his death,so for me his influence of rock is still felt. as for barney et al,yes they did write the muse for jd tracks and they have gone on to write stuff that many would consider to be classic tracks,"blue monday,true faith ect" all still being played on the airwaves to this day. if u ask me they are all geniuses,and weve been lucky to have em,for better or worse.

I guess this is one of those threads of if you prefer JD over NO. For me it is NO. This is in no way denying Ian Curts' genius with lyrics and song delivery. I just don't see how the band could have moved on if he had remained. Probably in ways we can not even imagine.

But what he did to his daughter, leaving her fatherless. That is hard to forgive. The mosr selfish act. Did he really lack the strength to go on??? If he simply quit or took a break the band might have folded, NO never formed or had its legacy. Another debate with no answers.

twist<----------pissed off about a murder/suicide in my city last week inwhich a young man kills himself leaving a 2 year old son. Fucker.

Being a little judgemental there, I think, Twist.

I can see your point, but didn't realize you had such authority to speak of these matters.

Originally posted by twist But what he did to his daughter, leaving her fatherless. That is hard to forgive. The mosr selfish act. Did he really lack the strength to go on??? If he simply quit or took a break the band might have folded, NO never formed or had its legacy. Another debate with no answers.twist<----------pissed off about a murder/suicide in my city last week inwhich a young man kills himself leaving a 2 year old son. Fucker.

So what's this got to do with Ian's role in Joy Division, as the original questioner asked? And why is your forgiveness required anyway?

Suicide wrong for the most part. Leaving kids with one less parent is not a noble thing. I am pissed at the bastard in my city who just did this. Telephoned his sister and said "I know you will take good care of my 2 year old son." BANG Sorry, its the parent in me typing now.

Why not discuss the other possibility, if Ian merely quit the band and left the others to fend for themselves although he was still alive?? I think it would have failed.

Originally posted by twist Suicide wrong for the most part. Leaving kids with one less parent is not a noble thing. I am pissed at the bastard in my city who just did this. Telephoned his sister and said "I know you will take good care of my 2 year old son." BANG Sorry, its the parent in me typing now.Why not discuss the other possibility, if Ian merely quit the band and left the others to fend for themselves although he was still alive?? I think it would have failed.

I'll agree with your last point there...NO would not have been what they became had Ian lived and merely quit.