Rivals with New Order?

Okay, so I am pretty much a virgin at posting here and I am often so far out of the loop here in the wild, wild western US (I often feel I am the only NO fan in my time zone). Anyway, I was perusing the board here and it seems to me (correct me if I am wrong) that a lot of diehard NO fans aren't too hip on The Cure.

Is this true? If so, why? I like The Cure, I like New Order. So a fellow board member and his band "accidentally" slipped A Forest in...good song, good on you!

Just looking for a little insight as I am not on top of what's up in the UK regarding bands and their "enemies".

The Cure are from Crawley. That's all you need know ;)

Originally posted by Detweiler 3.63 The Cure are from Crawley. That's all you need know ;)

Like a BA flight to Los Angeles, that one's just gone about 35,000 feet over our friend in Utah's bonce.

oh god,not this again! there has always been rivalry between the two sets of fans,pretty much like football! over the years mr smith has accused the order of trying to be like them,saying they are shite etc,etc. we really could go on for days! moral of the story is this: this is a site about new order,not a cure site! if you want to find out more about the cure the dont wash for a few weeks get yourself some black lipstick and eyeliner,dress like a twat,talk bollocks etc.............. and please for f**cks sake dont mention the cure again! regards

I LOVE New Order, I LIKE The Cure. I don't wear lipstick and I just stepped out of the shower. And your british humor is killing me and not in a good way. Yes, like a BA flight to Los Angeles at 35,000 feet you can look down on Salt Lake City and see your jokes flying right over my "bonce".

Guess what else...I also love those boys from Basildon called Depeche Mode! Curse me now! I am evil! How can I possibly like three different british bands?

I grew up with the Cure along with JD/NO, The Fall, Wire, Magazine, Pere Ubu, Talking Heads, etc etc etc. The Cure were never very well liked critically but always seemed to be popular enough. Personally I liked them from the moment I heard 10.15 Saturday Night.

They were always portrayed as "gloomy" and depressing, much like the Smiths in the 80's, and Joy Division before that I suppose. This was usually spouted by the NME-slaves who thought Kid Creole & The Coconuts were the future of music!

Funny how all those bands who were supposedly depressing made me feel happy and glad to be alive! For me the most depressing band ever to exist was Queen.

There are some Cure albums I hate - Pornography in particular was disappointing, but I love the first 3 albums and Disintegration. The version of A Forest on Mixed Up is top banana too.

Originally posted by Spencer Packer I LOVE New Order, I LIKE The Cure. I don't wear lipstick and I just stepped out of the shower. And your british humor is killing me and not in a good way. Yes, like a BA flight to Los Angeles at 35,000 feet you can look down on Salt Lake City and see your jokes flying right over my "bonce".

Cool your fucking boots, pal - I was referring to Tim's reference to a nondescript part of the UK, that's all...

Originally posted by Spencer Packer I LOVE New Order, I LIKE The Cure. I don't wear lipstick and I just stepped out of the shower. And your british humor is killing me and not in a good way. Yes, like a BA flight to Los Angeles at 35,000 feet you can look down on Salt Lake City and see your jokes flying right over my "bonce".

British people are funny. Good funny.

It was just a joke, besides, everybody knows that a shower for the Cure guy whatever his name is would be impossible. The removal of load-bearing dirt might kill him. Same thing with the removal cultures of parasitic microorganisms in his hair/nest/hive. (not that my day would be spoiled by the news).

ANYHOO,

Back to the topic at hand, the only Cure song I can really stomache is Lullaby. However, I think they are/were playing with Interpol, Muse, and a few other acts this summer so that might actually be a good show in whole.

I get the scence there was a bit rivalry (sp) between the Smiths and New Order. Although Johnnny Mar did formed Elctronic with Barnie.

You just get the sense from interviews with Hooky that Morrisey hated New Order. I guess the Smiths were turned down by Rob Gretton when they wanted a record deal at Factory didn't help.

Originally posted by Doctor Clayhead > Originally posted by Spencer Packer> I LOVE New Order, I LIKE The Cure. I don't wear lipstick and I just stepped out of the shower. And your british humor is killing me and not in a good way. Yes, like a BA flight to Los Angeles at 35,000 feet you can look down on Salt Lake City and see your jokes flying right over my "bonce".

Cool your fucking boots, pal - I was referring to Tim's reference to a nondescript part of the UK, that's all...

My boots are as cool as ice pal. What I meant about british humor is that I don't always get it. I was in no way being vicious to anyone across the Atlantic from me because I realize that as Morrissey says, "America is not the world".

At least no-one has mentioned the PSB yet. Except me. Just then. Sorry.

...a goth goes up to Rob Gretton DJ'ing... "have you got The Cure?" Rob: "what for, stupid hair?"

My boots are as cool as ice pal. What I meant about british humor is that I don't always get it.

thats cos you are a crazy arsed yank.......

yeee haaaaaaaaa!

many americans dont get the good old british humour,they usually think we drink tea out of nice china cups and sit around talking about the shite weather all day! (probably true!)

toodlepip old boy!

Originally posted by Old Blue At least no-one has mentioned the PSB yet. Except me. Just then. Sorry.

PSB are good. I like em a lot better than The Cure. They are light years from New Order of course.

PSB are interesting though, they were essentially beaten to the punch (musical timing-wise) by New Order and will always be a grade below. Even if PSB wrote/performed Blue Monday or something to that similarity/equivelancy before New Order I don't think things would have changed much. New Order is just more vast on almost all levels.

Essentially, New Order has a more broad style of music so they have more fans. Period.

PSB are good. I like em a lot better than The Cure. They are light years from New Order of course.

Essentially, New Order has a more broad style of music so they have more fans. Period.

couldnt have put it better myself young man!

I too like PSB but in moderation. I too agree that they are definitely behind NO musically. NO's music is much more diverse. Maybe I'm crazy but sometimes the PSB are just too poppy for me, I gotta have some darkness to go with my light.

Originally posted by Jonny ...a goth goes up to Rob Gretton DJ'ing..."have you got The Cure?"Rob: "what for, stupid hair?"

I think that New Order are great, so are Talking Heads, PIL, on the other hand the PSB are good, The cure are really really shit, and the smiths ... even worse than that (all because of morrisey, basically)

Factory were dead right to pass over the smiths and the stone roses, pity they missed BlackBox :(

Just admit it. The Cure is great stuff--and I'm not a goth.

Originally posted by Spencer Packer > Originally posted by Doctor Clayhead> > > > Originally posted by Spencer Packer> > I LOVE New Order, I LIKE The Cure. I don't wear lipstick and I just stepped out of the shower. And your british humor is killing me and not in a good way. Yes, like a BA flight to Los Angeles at 35,000 feet you can look down on Salt Lake City and see your jokes flying right over my "bonce".>

Cool your fucking boots, pal - I was referring to Tim's reference to a nondescript part of the UK, that's all...

My boots are as cool as ice pal. What I meant about british humor is that I don't always get it. I was in no way being vicious to anyone across the Atlantic from me because I realize that as Morrissey says, "America is not the world".

For the benefit of our American friend, Crawley is right next to Gatwick, home to London's second major airport.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis Most people, sensibly, just hate Goths. And the Cure are the epitome of that.

The Cure had a few "goth" albums in them from 1980-82, but they changed their sound quite a lot after that. The difference between 1982's Pornography and 1983's synthpoppy Japanese Whispers should illustrate that well. Most of the band's output is fairly melancholy, but there's a number of happy, poppy singles; in fact, much of their later material is no darker in content than a lot of the stuff New Order put out (saying nothing of Joy Division, you bunch of hypocrites). I can take The Cure seriously, but I can't take seriously a lot of the more stereotypical "goth" bands that took off into vampire imagery and heavy makeup--such as Sisters of Mercy, Type O Negative, et al.--in fact, even Bauhaus pushes the envelope. I have the feeling a lot of you just don't like the look of The Cure, whereas I feel Fatty Smith is just as whiny as a cunt like Morrissey (who most of you seem to have a hard-on for), but his music is much more musically vibrant.

Originally posted by I Invented NewOrder hmmm...the cure...did they do that song, Love Removal Machine???

So are people saying that New Order haven't become incredibly 'poppy'? AND yes I really like the Pet Shop Boys and I like Depeche Mode... but I'm generally a keen raver and nutty about late 80s-early 90s dance music. AND I do like the Cure too!

Originally posted by I Invented NewOrder Hey...while we're at it, let's talk about how great P. Diddy is?!?!?!

can we, please? :D

i quite like the cure, but on this site it appears that they, as my students would say, 'have been served.'

I like Cure, New Order, and most of PSB. Most of the Cure's darker albums are what I prefer, although most of their poppy stuff is quite excellent (with the exception of Friday I'm in love). Unlike NO, the Cure can be consistent live. I've never seen PSB live, but most of it would probably be pre-recorded anyway. I can attest to being somewhat of a goth, although I don't wear makeup anymore, but I can't stand any of those bands that thrive on having a phony sense of gloom (see those that the Pope mentioned above). Some days, I like NO more because of their dancier side, others, I prefer the Cure because of albums like Disintegration and Kiss Me - albums that NO could never do, because of limitations.

Surprised nobody on this thread has mentioned the pile of crap that is U2.I havent got a problem with The Cure but surely if any New Order fan should hate a band it would be U2.They took Joy Divisions sound, diluted it and made millions out of it.Bongo has even accepted they owe their career to JD.Hooky has touched on this a few times in the past also.Like Tony Wilson said of the 1985 Live Aid gig - "Bono was good but Ian would have done it much better".Unlucky Bongo!!

Originally posted by Voice Of Treason . Surprised nobody on this thread has mentioned the pile of crap that is U2.I havent got a problem with The Cure but surely if any New Order fan should hate a band it would be U2.They took Joy Divisions sound, diluted it and made millions out of it.Bongo has even accepted they owe their career to JD.Hooky has touched on this a few times in the past also.Like Tony Wilson said of the 1985 Live Aid gig - "Bono was good but Ian would have done it much better".Unlucky Bongo!!

Bongo, I love it I'm a big fan of the Great Pop Things comic strips, and credit Capt. Beefheart for coming up with that one. Seems like Bongo, just before Rattle And Hum, rang up the Captain to collaborate with them on the album and Beefheart, retired from the music biz, rang up his manager and wanted to know who this Bongo guy was.

I like the cure, a lot. At no point in my life was there a comparison or a "contest" between bands. I couldn't care less about that stuff. I just love good music.

I think the cure should lose the makeup and hair now. They are a well respected band that has transcended the "80's band" stereotype. Continuing with the hair and crap is silly now.

the cure v. new order? i'm torn. radiohead v. new order? radiohead. but then again thom & co. rock the socks off any british band with any current relevance. i love new order - but my love for them figures to be more ridden with sentimentality . musically though, no one can touch radiohead at this moment.

I thought this went back to the mid 80's when The Cure er.. "borrowed" substantial amounts of Blue Monday and "Love Vigilantes" to make their cover versions called "The Walk" and "Inbetween Days"

Originally posted by Adrian Ko the cure v. new order? i'm torn. radiohead v. new order? radiohead. but then again thom & co. rock the socks off any british band with any current relevance. i love new order - but my love for them figures to be more ridden with sentimentality . musically though, no one can touch radiohead at this moment.

not sure if they are going off the boil or going to be disappearing up their own arse at some point. I agree around Kid A/Amnesiac time they were superb and their live work was brilliant, the perfect mesh of electronics and guitars, flipping between the two, messing with the gear. Like an early New Order!

but after they have deconstructed everything they almost need to find a niche again, you can't continue to be 'different' you are going to run out of ideas and just take anything (aka Morning Bell #2)

Originally posted by Spencer Packer Guess what else...I also love those boys from Basildon called Depeche Mode! Curse me now! I am evil! How can I possibly like three different british bands?

I was in Basildon yesterday. It really is a shit hole.

a bit like this place: http://www.sheppeyscum.com

What a shite thread.

Should have took my advice on that Gays and goths forum.

maybe some of these bands like The Cure were jealous that New Order succeeded even after Joy Division, succeeded with a totally leftfield indie label run by a fool, succeeded without the makeup and posturing and doing the normal publicity and standard interviews, succeeded without MTV.

I don't dislike The Cure, Robert Smith is a fine songwriter and had nice records in the 80s, thou I don't listen to them anymore. Smith should have retired after he made all that money with the mediocre Wish, cause he was descending into total self-parody. Smith has painted himself into a corner and can't get out.

This rivalry between the Cure and New Order is really fucking stupid and childish, and it seems to me that its mainly a UK thing.

Here is the US, people who love New Order also generally also love The Cure, Depeche Mode, PIL, Talking Heads, ect.

Not many people consider the Cure to be a Goth band here. The Cure in the Us is really popular amongst a lot of indie kids and college students. They are considered to be a very important and hugely influential band here.

The same goes for New Order and Depeche Mode. its thier music that matters. The 3 of the bands have been very influential and are now regarded as godfathers of indie and alt rock.

I love New Order, with a passion. But The Cure do ahve a lot mroe varitey in thier music, just listen to Pornography, Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me, Disintigration, and Bloodflowers. All are very different albums.

Robert Smith is a far superior lyricist to bernard Sumner. Martin Gore from Depeche Mode is also a far better lyricsit and a brilliant songwriter as well. Take any DM song and play it on piano or acoutstic guitar and it will sound beautiful. You cant do that with a lot of New Order songs.

New Order made great dance music that was amazingly emotional and had a lot if interesting electronic experimentation going on.

Depeche Mode combined industrial sound palletes with classic pop songwriting to create and incredibly complex and diverse sound. Listen to Black Celebration and Violator. The songwriting and production qualities of these records are amazing.

The Cure and Robert Smith wrote tons of amazing emotional songs, songs that speak of fragile beauty, love, loss, and aging, getting old. Disintigration and Bloodflowers are deep, emotional albums that take me on a journey and remind me of the pain I ahve felt in my life, but also how I grew from it. Thousands of others feel thios way too.

For those of you that say New Order are better than Dm and the Cure because they are on an indie label and made it in the US are also wrong.

DM is signed to Mute, an indie label. The Cure was signed to Ficiton, and indie label.

Depeche Mode sold out the Rosebowl with no MTV or radio support in America. Same with the Cure. And yes, New Order did it too.

Having seen DM, New Order, and The Cure live, NO are definately the weakest of the three.

A lot of you dont even have good reasons to dislike DM or the Cure. You are all like small minded ignorant homophobic jock thugs, the type of people that the intelligent gay dance club members of New Order prolly regar d as ignorant pricks.

"Oh, lets slag off the Cure because fat Bob is fag! Lets slag off Depeche Mode cause they wear make up! Oooooooohhhhhh! We are so manly and macho, lets go dance to a band that takes its inspiration from gay disco, NEW ORDER!"

Please.

And I am sorry, but I dont see how the Cue and DM rip off New Order that much. Soemtimes there are similarities, but thats cause all three bands share influences and mine the same territory.

I dont think True Faith and Enjoy the Silence have anything in common other than being great dance tunes with good lyrics.

And if you are gonna accuse The Cure and DM for ripping new Order off, youd better start accusing New Order of ripping of Kraftwerk and Giorogio Moroder.

Also, Depeche Mode started experimenting with electrincs and synths before New Order did. In 1980, DM were a full fledged synth band. Before New Order were. Yes, Dms early records arent that good, but Black Celebration and Violator and Music for the Masses and Exciter are moer well produced and emotional and coherent than any New Order album with the exception of technique.

New Order are a great singles band. Dm are a great albums band. The Cure are somewhere in between.

All three bands are amazing, and here in the US, we judge new order, DM, and the Cure on the basis of their MUSIC, not what they look like.

Seriously, people, grow up a little.

By the way, Ive got big teased hair, and I am the songwriter in a band thats influenced by new Order, The Cure, JD, and Dm, as well as Nick Cave, Patti Smith, Talking Heads, PIL, ect.

Im also a respected and successful photographer.

And I am from a workign class family. Blue collar all the way. And you know what, my beer guzzling football loving factory working uncle loves New Order, the Cure, Depeche Mode, Iggy Pop, and The Pixies. Imagine that. Being blue collar and workign class doesnt mean you have to be a macho asshole.

But, I digress. I love you all, and your comments make my day more interesting. And Temptation makes me cry sometimes. Seriously, it reminds me of an ex girlfriend.

Please excuse all of my typos.

Zachery

WOOPS!

I meant to say up there that the members of New order love gay dance club music. Not that they were gan dance clubbers. I know they are all married and what not.

My typing really sucks.

If this wasn't such a tired subject (including basically all of the points you've mentioned), you would've just opened up a whole can of something or other. I agree with you on some points but not others (e.g., DM are a great album band? PLEASE.). Too bored to go on....

Take any DM song and play it on piano or acoutstic guitar and it will sound beautiful. You cant do that with a lot of New Order songs.

Try playing "Master and Servant" on a piano. Now try playing "Bizarre Love Triangle". No offense, but you on crack, boy.

Also, Depeche Mode started experimenting with electrincs and synths before New Order did. In 1980, DM were a full fledged synth band. Before New Order were.

True, but Depeche Mode were pure synth-pop. New Order were more electronica and techno-rock than DM were. Later on they also became more influential on house. DM, on the other hand, went more industrial and hard-edged. So basically, the two bands started from completely different places and took completely different paths, so why are we even comparing them?

Originally posted by AgentWood > Originally posted by I Invented NewOrder> Hey...while we're at it, let's talk about how great P. Diddy is?!?!?!

can we, please? :D

i quite like the cure, but on this site it appears that they, as my students would say, 'have been served.'

I need to see that awful movie You Got Served

Originally posted by Mr Ben > Originally posted by Adrian Ko> the cure v. new order? i'm torn. radiohead v. new order? radiohead. but then again thom & co. rock the socks off any british band with any current relevance. i love new order - but my love for them figures to be more ridden with sentimentality . musically though, no one can touch radiohead at this moment.

not sure if they are going off the boil or going to be disappearing up their own arse at some point. I agree around Kid A/Amnesiac time they were superb and their live work was brilliant, the perfect mesh of electronics and guitars, flipping between the two, messing with the gear. Like an early New Order!

but after they have deconstructed everything they almost need to find a niche again, you can't continue to be 'different' you are going to run out of ideas and just take anything (aka Morning Bell #2)

I agree, I was a big fan of Kid A and Amnesiac, but their more recent album pretty much is pure shit. Thom will eventually get tired and break up the band and make some strange solo albums. That'll be the end of Radiohead.

Originally posted by Ghost is luminous I like the cure, a lot. At no point in my life was there a comparison or a "contest" between bands. I couldn't care less about that stuff. I just love good music.I think the cure should lose the makeup and hair now. They are a well respected band that has transcended the "80's band" stereotype. Continuing with the hair and crap is silly now.

So The Cure should pull what KISS did in the 80's?

Originally posted by Smack My Finch Up oh for goodness sake...why do we keep going round and round about this one???fine...some of you like the cure...you kids are entitled to like what you want...some of us don't like the cure, and a bunch of people telling me how great they are isn't going to make me, or anybody else on here change our minds...could we possibly beat this dead horse any more...fooking hell, we've beat it so much it's turned into Michael Jackson...

The question is, who would you rather leave your kid next to, Fat Bob or Michael Jackson?

just how fat IS Bob? any good pics on the net?

from what i've seen he Bob looks like one of his poser fans now, unable to step out of costume. its all come full circle.

how about a friendly contest between Barney and Bob? see who can get back into shape? maybe Tony Wilson can make a show about it

I really don't get all of the rivalry stuff. Surely arguing about who is better live, on single, on album (etc) is a little bit pointless because a lot is down to personal preference in the end.

I admit I’m one of the people who have always considered the Cure to be a bit gothic, but that probably is down to a lack of understanding on my part because I, admittedly, don’t know a great deal about them and they are not my kind of band.

I really couldn’t say whether they are musically any better/worse than New Order or Depeche Mode because, like I’ve already said, I don’t know that much about them but I do know that, regardless of whether they are superior lyrically, live (etc), I’d personally rather watch or listen to New Order every time.

That’s just my own preference though. Fair play to those who love the music of all three.

I’m not sure how these bands keep getting compared, or viewed as rivals, because I personally don’t regard their musical styles, or images, as similar at all. I suppose it’s probably because they are all from the same musical era and have been around for a long time.

At Subhuman

quote:

Take any DM song and play it on piano or acoutstic guitar and it will sound beautiful. You cant do that with a lot of New Order songs.

Try playing "Master and Servant" on a piano. Now try playing "Bizarre Love Triangle". No offense, but you on crack, boy.

Well, yes you are right there. Master and Servant isn t a very good song, and Bizzaree Love triangle does sound good on piano.

But other DM songs, like Never Let Me Down Again, Walking in My Shoes, Home, The Bottom Line, World Full of Nothing, In Your Room, and The Sweetst Perfection all sound bautiful on piano.

Martin Gore writes all of DMs songs on piano or acoustic guitar. Hence most of them tanslate.

In LA I saw Martin Gore perform a Piano version of Enjoy the Silence that was beautiful.

New Order, DM and The Cure are all fuckign brillaint for different reasons and I love them all equally.

Originally posted by Tristan > Originally posted by AgentWood> > > > Originally posted by I Invented NewOrder> > Hey...while we're at it, let's talk about how great P. Diddy is?!?!?! >

can we, please? :D

i quite like the cure, but on this site it appears that they, as my students would say, 'have been served.'

I need to see that awful movie You Got Served So you can learn to break dance?

Originally posted by Tristan > Originally posted by Smack My Finch Up> oh for goodness sake...why do we keep going round and round about this one???> > fine...some of you like the cure...you kids are entitled to like what you want...> > some of us don't like the cure, and a bunch of people telling me how great they are isn't going to make me, or anybody else on here change our minds...> > could we possibly beat this dead horse any more...fooking hell, we've beat it so much it's turned into Michael Jackson...

The question is, who would you rather leave your kid next to, Fat Bob or Michael Jackson? Is there really a contest? Robert Smith is not a child molester and has not had extravagent amounts of plastic surgury. If he was, don't you think Barney would've said, "When I was a very small boy, Robert Smith played with me"? Since this is NOOL, this seems rather appropriate for the moment:

does anyone get tired of 6000 long threads...i think not, becuase this is one of them

my opion, is that, everyband sucks and so do you for likeing them, have great day!;)

What's this rivals business. Let's go with contempoaries. Why has no one mentioned the Psycadelic Furs yet?

fuck all this retarded argument. really. fuck it all to hell. n.o. don't compare to radiohead. entienden mis amigos retardados?? you don't think so? well, go to hell then...

OK, my 2 penn'th........... Musically the Cure and New order have some common ground ( as do NO and Depeche, the Fall, and any number of Brit bands of the era), BUT the main difference is.

NO: turn up for gig in whatever clother were easiest to reach crawling out of the shower that morning, if it's an important gig, comb your hair ( anyone who wants to argue this, kindly review PFD before engaging your keyboard).

Cure: Spend 6 hours i hair and another 3 in make-up, throw a J-lo if the image aint just so, Fop about with airs and graces, behaving so pretentiously, that even Morrisey would be saying "Jesus, yer man's a right C*nt". OH and don't forget loads of stae school dramatic looks and romantic hand gestures.

In short The cure had cool ( if you were into that sort of thing) and New Order didn't need cool, they simply didn;t know what cool was, and didn't need to care cos they pretty well defined it. I've never been a fan of all the bunk in the music biz[1], and NO had none of it.

OH, and the Cure nosedived faster then NO, it took NO until 2001 to make a rough album, the Cure were blowing goats by the late 80's.

But yeah, I still have starin at the sea round here somewhere.

RE: Depeche, same again, they learned to suck to0 quick after some blindingly good tunes.....and they did that NO rip off....err the one where the synth basically pretends to be Hooky.

[1] Unless it's done right, like for instance the ZTT label that had FGTH, Art of Noise and Propaganda ( and in later years 808 state)

Originally posted by Spencer Packer "America is not the world".

OMG, shut up, they'll hear you. Can you still say that over there???????? Aren't you worried you'll end up in camp X-ray under the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act?

Well done though, I'l remember you the next time I feel like saying anything about "all yanks......" :-)

i love The Cure, i love New Order/Joy Division. i think there is nothing wrong with that... i think i agree with one of the other posters that many people can't stomach Robert Smith's signature look and doesn't really give the music a chance. i'm not talking about the hit singles one would hear on the radio but a lot of The Cure's output on albums are excellent. i'm sure i'm gonna get replys like "well... i've heard enough of The Cure to make a decision that i don't like them.. bla bla bla" but knowing "Friday I'm In Love," "Love Song," "The Walk," and "Inbetween Days" is not enough.

i'm sorry but i just don't agree that if i like one band i can't like the other one...

/rant :)

anyway... i think both Barney and Robert are great lyricists, just in different styles. Barney is definately the more oblique and cryptic... Robert is more poetic and straightforward. mind you both songwriters had their share of really bad lyrics though... ;)

Originally posted by Steve Campbell > Originally posted by Spencer Packer> "America is not the world".

OMG, shut up, they'll hear you. Can you still say that over there???????? Aren't you worried you'll end up in camp X-ray under the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act?

Well done though, I'l remember you the next time I feel like saying anything about "all yanks......" :-)

Don't even get me started on the Patriot Act. The US Attorney General John Ashcroft, the father of the Patriot Act is a damn fool!

Alomanso,

All of the New Order songs you mentioned can be played on piano, its true, And acutally your reptty presumtuious,not too mention arrogant, to think that I wouldnt know that; Because I have tried to play a lot of NO sonsg on piano. I am a musician myself.

And if all you know of the Cure is stuff like Love Cats and Friday Im in Love, you dont know anything about he Cure. Most of thier singles are not even close to the best of their work.

For good Cure lyrics, check out songs like "Disintigration", "The Figurehead", "The Same Dee Water As You", "Want", "From the Edge of the Deep Green Sea, "End, "Where the Birds Sing" and "39" and you'll find soem really complex and emotional well written amd metaphoric lyrics.

As for NO, I think Barny can be hot or mis, lyrically. But when he is on, he is brilliant. "True Faith", "Blue Monday", "Sunrise", Bizarre Love Triangle, All the songs on Technique, "The Perfect Kiss, "Regret", and "Ruined in a Day" all have good lyrics.

Z

The Cure aren't. You will still die.

Originally posted by Zachery Starkey Alomanso,All of the New Order songs you mentioned can be played on piano, its true, And acutally your reptty presumtuious,not too mention arrogant, to think that I wouldnt know that; Because I have tried to play a lot of NO sonsg on piano. I am a musician myself.And if all you know of the Cure is stuff like Love Cats and Friday Im in Love, you dont know anything about he Cure. Most of thier singles are not even close to the best of their work. For good Cure lyrics, check out songs like "Disintigration", "The Figurehead", "The Same Dee Water As You", "Want", "From the Edge of the Deep Green Sea, "End, "Where the Birds Sing" and "39" and you'll find soem really complex and emotional well written amd metaphoric lyrics. As for NO, I think Barny can be hot or mis, lyrically. But when he is on, he is brilliant. "True Faith", "Blue Monday", "Sunrise", Bizarre Love Triangle, All the songs on Technique, "The Perfect Kiss, "Regret", and "Ruined in a Day" all have good lyrics.Z

Z ? Zzzzzzz more like

Can someone explain why it matters whether you can play something on a piano or acoustic guitar or not?

We're not in the middle of a 'real music' debate are we?

Originally posted by DC Can someone explain why it matters whether you can play something on a piano or acoustic guitar or not? We're not in the middle of a 'real music' debate are we?

sure, Bob Smith and Gore write (wrote) in more of a traditional songwriting style most of the time than Barney, no big mystery there that they might be easier to translate to piano/ acoustic guitar/ bagpipes, etc. maybe Barney didnt want to write that way, or couldn't, i dunno.

I've always prefered the NO/ JD and The Fall's awkwardness and quirkiness

That Sheepyscum link is a riot.

I was going to reply that my dog can fart better lyrics than Martin Gore. Smith has written a lot of shit since Disintegration as well as a few gems. Sure, the Cure perform better live than NO. Who gives a fuck?? But when NO is hot, they are heaven.

I only listen to the cure live in concert, not even on the stereo anymore.

That Sheepyscum link is a riot.

I was going to reply that my dog can fart better lyrics than Martin Gore. Smith has written a lot of shit since Disintegration as well as a few gems. Sure, the Cure perform better live than NO. Who gives a fuck?? But when NO is hot, they are heaven.

I only listen to the cure live in concert, not even on the stereo anymore.

To me New Order are the only band mentioned on this thread that have consistently created and recreated their own (musical) world with every release. Virtually everything they've done could only have been done by them, and has something new and unexpected about it.

The Cure are, and really always have been, a pretty conventional rock band. Bob's pop stylings do work out from time to time (Close To You, In Between Days - yes, yes - it's a rip off - so what?) but are in the main pretty unconvincing - e.g the excruciating Lovecats, or Hot Hot Hot.. I enjoyed the first 3 albums, but you get the sense that they're more comfortable doing a 7-minute dirge and since around 1989 they've really been just another rock b(r)and. Take away Bob's voice and it could be anyone.

I love v.early Depeche Mode. Dreaming Of Me is fucking fantastic - sounds like they just learned to play the synths that day and are still in wonder at being able to string a couple of chords together. When Vince Clarke left they went downhill fast - essentially they have nothing whatsoever to say and their attempts at quasi-'industrial' stylings coupled with Gahan's cliched rock star antics are deeply boring. A truly dreadful band,

So back to New Order - who else has done what they have done. I think the only artists who have defined their own world to the same extent would be Brian Eno, Bowie's 'Berlin' albums and Kraftwerk. But they're not really 'rivals'. Actually the idea of 'rivals' is daft.

Wait... I forgot the PSBs - pop genius all the way. Still good, yet they've stagnated a little over the last decade. The first 15 or so singles are absolutely amazing though.

Almanso,

Sorry I misspelled you name, I am not very good at typing.

Well, sorry I havent been playing New Order songs on piano since I was 7.

I am stepping out of this argument now, as I like NO, DM, and the Cure equally. So I said my piece already.

Blimey I got some applause!

Erasure - yes they're pish, with the exception of the majestic 'Sometimes'- a pink-pop/electro zeitgeist thingy which was, in retrospect a false dawn. Bah.

You are all like small minded ignorant homophobic jock thugs,

But Shug isn't really Scottish.

Disturbingly so for someone who is only 16, though I suppose we all think we know everything at that age

from not the nine o'clock news "Gerald" sketch 1981 about a gorilla that had been brought to England & now spoke English being interviewed on a chat show Gerald - "what do i spend my money on? well I expect you think I spend it all on carpet shampoo on bananas. I do spend 990% of it on that but I'm also partial to a bit of Johnny Mathis." Geralds 'owner' - "rather partial? you're not kidding, when a chiold is born blaring out all hours...." Gerald - "listen, the production quality on that album is amazing"

compare & contrast the talking Gorilla defending Johhny Mathis with this extract

Originally posted by Zachery Starkey Depeche Mode combined industrial sound palletes with classic pop songwriting to create and incredibly complex and diverse sound. Listen to Black Celebration and Violator. The songwriting and production qualities of these records are amazing.Zachery

p.s. I like enjoy the silence, but other Depeche Mode stuff leaves me cold, both with & post vince clarke.

I have seen the Cure live twice, they were ok in 89, not as good as the New Order concert I saw later that year. They were boring as you like in the XFM concert a few years later - it was all extended dirges. I have in the past owned the following Cure albums (they have dropped the "the" from their name now) Japanese Whispers, head on the door, disintegration (have a signed copy - someone make me an offer!), kiss me kiss me kiss me, entreat, standing on the beach I have heard enough to know that they son't do it for me.

he bloody does eat daffodils you know!

Originally posted by Adrian Ko the cure v. new order? i'm torn. radiohead v. new order? radiohead. but then again thom & co. rock the socks off any british band with any current relevance. i love new order - but my love for them figures to be more ridden with sentimentality . musically though, no one can touch radiohead at this moment.

Adrian - think you should check out the Hope of The States album, you will problee like it.

Well, perhaps all this hulabaloo about the new Cure album will only HELP New Order when they put out their next album. And perhaps it'll even inspire the band to get the album done faster so they'll be able to sell more units while the current "retro" trend in rock is going on; after all, if Morrissey and Fat Bob can sell lots of records to "the kids," then the Order probably can too (esp. if they punch up the "we used to be Joy Division" angle).

Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope if Morrissey and Fat Bob can sell lots of records to "the kids," then the Order probably can too (esp. if they punch up the "we used to be Joy Division" angle).

That idea is probably the best thing I've heard...It seems that everyone nowadays is "inspired by" or "sounds like" Joy Division. How about those lads who are Joy Division?

[...It seems that everyone nowadays is "inspired by" or "sounds like" Joy Division. How about those lads who are Joy Division?

I thought they tried that on the last album.

pssssshh....i don't care whom no are rivals with, whom they hate, or dislike!

i'll make my own mind up on what i listen to!

Homophobe?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Most of my gay and lesbian friends listen to Fleetwood Mac, the Grateful Dead and Phish. Personally, I do not care for Neil's voice.

Nothing wrong with liking the Cure. They're good (as are PetShopBoys, the Smiths, etc.) just not great like New Order. The Cure have one masterpiece, Disintegraton, while NO have four (P,C & L through Technique).

Now I'm really going to piss some of you off...

I love Moby. Even Animal Rights :D

Originally posted by anita pssssshh....i don't care whom no are rivals with, whom they hate, or dislike!i'll make my own mind up on what i listen to!

My thoughts exactly. This whole rivalry thing's pointless and silly IMO.

Some of you people can be real assholes, you know that?

And I am 22, not 16.

And sorry, but the production on some Depeche Mode albums is pretty amazing.

Some NO and Cure albums also have great production.

I like all 3, so sue me, alright?

It is all a mtter of tastes, in the end. Music, like all art, is subjective.

And yes, I do think its very funny that New Order have so many small minded macho asshole fans, because here in the US, thier music is considered by many macho assholes to be pretty gay. I mean, dancey electro pop is generally not the music adopted by macho guys over here.

Not that any of that matters.

And I apologise if my posts are not always well typed or organised, but you see, I am a busy busy man and I dont really have that much time to spend on the internet, so when I do find the time to post, it has to be quick.

The Cure, NO, and DM have all made music I love,a nd they also all have moments that I think are kinda bad.

But I still love them.

And Robert Smith needs to lose some wight and cut his hair a bit ans stop with the make up, because it looks bad on him nowdays.

ZachEry