New Order fans: more complex than thought?

It seems as if there are three groups of people: New Order fans, Depeche Mode fans and Cure fans. If you're a New Order fan, it's apparently illegal to like DM or the Cure. If you're a Cure fan, it's illegal to like NO or DM. If you're a Depeche Mode fan.. Well you get it. Anyways, obviously being a New Order fan myself, would it be considered betrayal to enjoy one or two Cure songs, or even one or two covers? (yeah, I never have liked DM mind you) Just curious. I think we should make this official really. Sadly, I am a U2 fan as well. My apologies.

No, I don't think it'd be a betrayal at all. I've never understood the whole "oh, if you like NO you can't like DM or the Cure" thing. Just listen to what you want to listen to, I say.

The idea that DM/NO/Cure get lumped together, it's because they're three great bands who got started pretty much the same time in England. They have different sounds, records, and liking a band is not mutually exlusive.

I've always liked "Enjoy the Silence", and got into DM last year. The Cure is good from what I've heard, Disintegration is not bad at all. While a lot of No fans dislike the other two, nothing is wrong with liking them all..

As long as Nelly, Britney Spears, Eminem are off your play lists...

The bottom line is that people will like whatever they want to. Certainly, fans in some countries are drawn to certain acts because of the media need to categorise bands into genres. Typically, the US lumps New Order, The Cure and Depeche Mode together, maybe because they are all British and date from a similar era, I dunno.

I tend to like bands because they do a song that appeals to me and I invest the time and money to find out more about them and the songs they write. That's how I started with Joy Division in the first place, heard Insight and wanted more. I have never cared what other people think of my musical tastes, and have certainly never gone out and bought a Cure or DM record just because some people think that all New Order fans must like The Cure. For the record, I downloaded a Cure show off Ez-torrent only a couple of weeks ago, and very good it is too. I only have one Cure record though. One of my old bands used to cover DM, Erasure and Blancmange. I used to do a couple of U2 songs in my solo acoustic set when I supplemented working in IT for a living by a few years as a bar singer/guitarist. I also did Lemonheads, Beatles, Husker Du, Elvis Presley and Costello, The Smiths, Crowded House, Bob Marley, you name it. Doesn't matter at the end of the day.

If you want to like DM, The Cure, PSB or even the Polyphonic Spree, fair play to you. You have at least shown some taste by liking New Order!

When i was a teenager in the 80s you either liked NewOrder or The Smiths. The Cure or Depeche Mode werent even in the running!

I've just ben talking about this with the missus, and she pointed out that my bands of choice in the mid 80s were New Order, the Bunnymen, The Fall, the Sisters and The Smiths. I pointed out that I gave up on that turd Morrissey after The Queen Is Dead. New Order and the Bunnymen always went together though.

New Order and Depeche Mode are both fantastic

I think Depeche Mode are now the more experimental and creative of the two though... I hate to say!

New Order have hardly evolved since Technique really whilst Depeche Mode after two average cheesey techno-pop albums in the early 80s have really broadened their sound. Music For The Masses and Violator are in my opinion, two of the finest albums of the 1980s.

Well, I love New Order, Depeche Mode, The Cure, The Smiths, ok?

Love 'em all. Here in the States, most of the bands mentioned above (exceptions: Presley, Beatles, Marley) were the "alternative" to a very stale rock scene, so "alternative" stations played 'em all.

Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr Love 'em all. Here in the States, most of the bands mentioned above (exceptions: Presley, Beatles, Marley) were the "alternative" to a very stale rock scene, so "alternative" stations played 'em all.

Agree 100% If you liked one of those bands here in California, you were expected to like the others.

I got into DM first in 83...Cure in 85 and NO/JD in 87....

....and these days, well lumped together, I've probably got more CD's/LP's by these 3 groups than most people have in their entire collection.

I like all three...and always have. I did at one time consider the Cure a "synthpop" band...because of The Walk and Let's Go To Bed....but I have a clue now.

Moz/Smiths took me slightly longer to warm up to, I'm not sure why.

Depeche Mode used to be my favorite band, but I started to get tired or their music, and Exciter bored me. Then I delved into New Order and fell in love. Violator, Music For the Masses, Black Celebration, and Construction Time Again are all top notch albums. I do like the Cure; Pornography and The Head On the Door are my favorite albums by Bob and the crew. I strongly dislike Disintegration and Wish (with an exception to a few tracks). Anyways, Robert Smith exists in this world to be made fun of.

Moz/Smiths took me slightly longer to warm up to, I'm not sure why.

Same here...I never liked the Smiths growing up as a kid or through school in the 80's when everyone else around me swore by them...but in my later years since they've grown on me with a vengence.

Funny how that works out.

Originally posted by Spotnick There are 2 types of New Order fans... North American fans, and European fans (well, other places can't be categorized hehe)...It's a fact that most North American tends to like DM and Cure... while most Europeans (mostly british) hate them...Don't ask me why, it must be cultural ;)P/S: Of course, I'm exagerating

You may be exagerating Spotty, but I've been witness to this 'Cultural Separation'...so at least in some form, it does exist. Very strange.

Oh yeah, and to comment on the DM portion of this discussion...and it may get me razed by a few folks here but:

Violator = BORING!!! (Except WIME) Exicter = I loved that one!!! (Total redemption for that SOF&D shite!)

I'm equally a New Order and a Cure fan, although I do like the Pet Shop Boys, the Smiths, and Depeche Mode from the middle of their career. However, I can't stand Erasure and Duran Duran is purely pop. Then again, the first bands I ever liked were RHCP and Smashing Pumpkins. I grew out of RHCP in junior high, but I'm still a strong SP fan.

Speaking for my European kin from my Mancunian Republic here Nic ;)

My one and only musical love is NO/JD - that will not change now.

I have in the past enjoyed a lot of DM stuff. I have both singles albums & Violator. Enjoy the Silence is in my all time top 10. Not bothered with them since c. 1990 really though.

Never been a fan of The Cure, though a mate at work once was into them BIG time. They've made a few good tunes that i'm aware of, though I haven't made any great effort - the apathy is basically cos Bob looks like, well, a bit of a dick.

The Smiths made some great tunes but Morrissey's "flamboyant NHS geek" image never really appealed to me, so there's no devotion there either. He did do a great gig at Old Trafford this Summer though.

Before Neworder took over my musical appreciation, I really liked PSB. Still do really, but they've not pulled up many trees since "Bilingual" if I'm being honest.

So in conclusion, bands are not mutually exclusive but I do measure them all against NO/JD - a test which nobody will ever pass but a few make a decent go at.

Depeche - Shite Cuue - Fat nancy boy who wears lipstick, shut up and comb yer hair Robert

Yeah it was deffo The Smiths or New Order in the eighties (U2 were out of the running).I have to say that The Smiths Queen Is Dead album was brilliant in 1986 and The Cures Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me album in 1987 was good.Overall my two favourite bands from the eighties was obviously New Order and another band which people have forgotten about which is the Cocteau Twins although INMO they`re best album is Heaven Or Las Vegas from 1990.

Originally posted by Voice Of Treason . Yeah it was deffo The Smiths or New Order in the eighties (U2 were out of the running).I have to say that The Smiths Queen Is Dead album was brilliant in 1986 and The Cures Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me album in 1987 was good.Overall my two favourite bands from the eighties was obviously New Order and another band which people have forgotten about which is the Cocteau Twins although INMO they`re best album is Heaven Or Las Vegas from 1990.

The Cocteau Twins are briliant; Heaven of Las Vegas is everybody's favorite Cocteau album. I also really like Treasure.

All three bands broke the States out of that journey/Styx/REO/ACDC/LedZeppelin shit that totally contraolled the air waves. Dpish has a few good tunes but never really did much for me. Albums too inconsistent. The Cure fairs better up to Porno then while producing good songs albums hard to listen to except for Disintegration. I only get excited about the Cure when they tour--live Cure is better than studio Cure. But I noticed that I am very selective about what Cure boots I collect. Little variety in their performance is the reason I am so selective--not the set list rather every song is played exactly the same.

New Order's albums are always great, even Republic. Live Order even better. even though may gigs have basically the same set list, there is always something different that make them all so special. Whether its the development of a song, banter or fuck ups I cannot get enough.

I think people shouldent be judge on what they like and just let them be. i mean c'mon i lisitin to The Smiths, The Cure,New Order,Joy Division, and Depeche Mode, and while im at it im big on Talking Heads and Wang Chung Right now, and people at my school think im cool for what i am, i like what i like and dont let people make decisions for me, said and done

Alejo had to go and get technical on us... ;)

Originally posted by Spike I think people shouldent be judge on what they like and just let them be. i mean c'mon i lisitin to The Smiths, The Cure,New Order,Joy Division, and Depeche Mode, and while im at it im big on Talking Heads and Wang Chung Right now, and people at my school think im cool for what i am, i like what i like and dont let people make decisions for me, said and done

Nothing wrong with liking Talking Heads, Spike. Wang Chung, on the other hand....

Here we go again......

Depeche made some silly pop singles that a fun now and then, and then made a few decent album between 1985-1997. Then they've been progressively moving toward lounge music ever since. I used to be big into them (big enough to go see their tour instead of NO!), but not nearly as much anymore.

New Order and Joy Division are still running strong, beaten only slightly by The Cure (though that changes from day to day). New Order have put out their share of shit, same as the other bands.

I love The Cure, especially the darker stuff (c. 1980-82). Plus they have a lot of great B-sides. Their albums have always been easier for me to listen to than DM albums, and some NO albums. Plus, they still make some really good music, though it's a lot more hit and miss nowadays.

But those are the big ones. Plenty more bands from the same rough era that I listen to in smaller doses: Oingo Boingo, Dead Can Dance, Erasure, Bauhaus, Banshees, et al.

In the 80's as still a teenager, i had discovered Depeche Mode and the Smiths (slightly) earlier that JD/NO, so its apparent that i have no choice but still liking them ;) . In the same period of time i discovered the Cure as well, but for some reason they didnt appeal to me. In fact, over the years, this turned into hate, i guess cos all Cure fans i knew seemed kinda "fake" to me (and so did and does Robert Smith). Again this is my personal opinion, but that's all that counts to anyone in musical preferences, isnt it?

Originally posted by Sir CHUNKS > Moz/Smiths took me slightly longer to warm up to, I'm not sure why.

Same here...I never liked the Smiths growing up as a kid or through school in the 80's when everyone else around me swore by them...but in my later years since they've grown on me with a vengence.

Funny how that works out.

It took me ages to appreciate the Smiths as well but now I love them. I first got in to New Order, I suppose, because I loved Electronic when I was at School but I knew it was sort of a side project. I decided to work back and listen to some New Order stuff and that was that. New Order were easy to get in to for me, and worth taking time to listen to, because I liked dance music but it's only after I was introduced to the band that I realised that they pretty much have something for everyone. I love all of their stuff now!!

I didn't really bother taking any time to listen to the Smiths because I wrongly assumed that their music would do nothing for me. It's only recently that I've gotten in to their stuff and I think they're great so i'm glad that I gave their music a chance.

I think music is a very personal thing and people connect with it for loads of different reasons so I don’t think you should ever feel that you should or shouldn’t like one band just because you like another. If you do that than you close yourself off to loads of great stuff. I would never let anyone try to dictate my musical preference because I know what I like (and what I don’t).

I haven’t really gotten in to Depeche Mode or the Cure, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not both great bands. I love ‘Enjoy the Silence’ and ‘People are People’ by DM but haven’t really taken to much of their other stuff. Same with the Cure, I think ‘Inbetween Days’ and ‘Boys Don’t Cry’ are great but I’m pretty indifferent to them in general.

Plenty of people love both though and fair play to themXxxx

Originally posted by Julie > > > I think music is a very personal thing and people connect with it for loads of different reasons so I don’t think you should ever feel that you should or shouldn’t like one band just because you like another. If you do that than you close yourself off to loads of great stuff. I would never let anyone try to dictate my musical preference because I know what I like (and what I don’t).>

I got into the Smiths, Echo and the Bunnymen, the Cure and DM around the same time as the Order, and for the same reasons as anyone in North America, but for the most part I like the music or specific songs, not necessarily the bands themselves.

The Smiths did some great stuff, but Morrissey is a pompous ass and Johnny seems to have been bodysnatched, judging from his recent solo outing. I think he ran away from being Johnny Marr for too long. It's true, btw, that Morrissey has a big Latino following in the States these days.

DM was a girl band, and I only started listening to them at all because of a girlfriend. They did three albums I like (BC, MFTM, and Violator) but have just gone downhill ever since. They're pretty dull live, very choreographed.

The Cure should have stopped with Disintegration. Live, well, as someone else said, they change the setlist every night, which is commendable, but they have to, since every song sounds so much like the album version. Note-perfect performances are not my thing. I did pick up both Show and Paris (used and cheap, just like some of our posters!), but there's not much point getting any of their other live stuff (Trilogy put me to sleep).

Echo is pretty much the only band of this bunch that I listen to with any regularity anymore, and even them, not so much. Ian Mac seems pretty full of himself as well.

Still like the Cocteau Twins, though I might pick Blue Bell Knoll over HoLV.

PSB got my attention around the time of Behaviour (Johnny Marr again) but not for long.

None of them have held up for me over the years as well as the lads (and lass). I'll put Get Ready up against Curiosa, Exciter, or Quarry any day, and they're also by far the least pretentious of the lot.

I hope we can all at least agree that we are New Order fans.

Whatever else you guys like is fine by me, just don't go about it too much.

That Oedipus was a complex fucker.....

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Spotnick> > There are 2 types of New Order fans... North American fans, and European fans (well, other places can't be categorized hehe)...

I don't think it's even that generalised. The split seems to be more finite: UK and non-UK, I'd have said.

Oi!!!

"Whoa. That was really deep Ogre."

"Yeah"

I'm with you, Razed. Can't figure out why, as a New Order fan, I'm supposed to hate Morrissey, DM, Cure, U2 and now, apparently, Moby.

The Cure aren't what they once were, but Disintegration is brilliant, as are many Smiths records, and DM's Violator. I've always liked Moby and will continue to. Maybe here in the states we had more crap to hate (Bon Jovi and the lot) so we didn't hate other good artists.

Now get ready to flame me... I think NO should work with the Chems producing again. Here To Stay is better than every track on Get Ready.

You're missing the point a bit I fear - you aren't "supposed to hate" X,Y and Z if you are a New Order fan at all. What's being said is that there is this US/Canadian concept of linking bands together by "genre" and automatically identifying certain bands together, just because they are British, combine electronic and acoustic sounds and date from a certain era. This concept just doesn't exist in the UK, there's no "File Under:" categorisation, so many British fans find it quite difficult to understand this apparent American need to link bands together.

And yes, I agree that New Order work well with the Chemical Brothers, the Chems seem to have the knack of bringing the best parts out of New Order songs.

Originally posted by Spotnick I forgot to add... Depeche Mode was a quite good group with the birds... so it was a good way to have them like you back in the early 90's

too true. when i was 13 or 14 i'd melt if a guy sang 'a question of lust' to me.

Originally posted by Spotnick

There are 2 types of New Order fans... North American fans, and European fans (well, other places can't be categorized hehe)...

It's a fact that most North American tends to like DM and Cure... while most Europeans (mostly british) hate them...

If you mean that european NO fans don't like THE CURE, I'm afraid that there's here another case of "french cultural exception"... ALL the NO fans I know do like THE CURE ! But it's true that most of them (including me) despise DM...

Maybe Americans lump them all together because they all hit about the same time. American radio was a freaking wasteland of garbage in the early 803. Wham, AC/DC, Led Zepplin, Scorpions, REO Speedwagon, the Cars and The Police.

DM was the first to hit with People Are People. Then NO with Blue Monday. The Cure next with Head On the Door and Shitting on the Sea. The Smiths filled the void by being the "non-synth" alternative.

Now there were American bands that were not shit and back then could be called "alternative." SOnic Youth, Husker Du, Butthole Surfers, REM ect and the late US punk explosion namely Black Flag, Dead kennedies ect ect. Notice none of these keyboard friendly which reinforced the convenience of labeling NO and DM together as UK new wave.

Originally posted by Spotnick I forgot to add... Depeche Mode was a quite good group with the birds... so it was a good way to have them like you back in the early 90's It's a girl that forced me to listen to them... and Violator has been the first CD I ever bought..And it's Depeche Mode that lead me to New Order in some kind of way... The Cure came later.As for The Smiths, I don't know anything about them, and it's still the case right now, the only song I know is How Soon Is Now...

So odd, because my g/f prefers New Order over DM..

Not that I'm complaining, but it just goes against the norm

I do like Here To Stay better than most of Get Ready, but I have to give props to Crystal for being such a good strong come back song (no, I don't consider 'Brutal' to be their come back; more just a hint).

Everyone raves about the Smiths. The only way I know about them is through a cover of How Soon Is Now by Snake River Conspiracy (any Smiths fans should check this out). I know I have a CD with the original on it somewhere, I just havent gotten around to listening to it. I think I don't give them a chance in fear that they will bore me.

I have tried to like Depeche Mode, I really have, but they're terrible. Anyone could come up with those songs. I did like Rammstein's version of Stripped though.

One band I've recently gotten into believe it or not is Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers. I'd like to see them collaborate with New Order. That'd be crazy.

The Cure.. I own three Cure CDS: Head On The Door, Disintegration and Kiss Mex3. I only like one song off Head, maybe two off Kiss Me, and Disintegration is good as an album, but the songs individually don't really stand up against any other song I have (except the album title track and Love Song). I donno. Those were the only albums I've bought that disappointed me. Oh, well those and the latest release from Incubus. Serves me right for trying to get into a new band without downloading some first. Though Megalomaniac is alright. But I guess you have to take risks sometimes with bands you aren't familiar with, that's how I discovered HIM. They're incredibly good actually, even cover a Chris Issak song and Don't Fear The Reaper. More cowbell anyone?

Incubus is utter shite except for a couple songs (and none of 'em are from Megalomaniac). They are a bunch of morons from the upper/ upper-middle class neighborhood of Calabasas, IMO.

Razed, get Entreat. It's only Disintegration songs done live (Wembely I think). You will never listen to Distintegration again. The album makes those songs shine like they should. Their studio counterparts seem so lackluster after hearing them live.

Originally posted by SPthree When i was a teenager in the 80s you either liked NewOrder or The Smiths. The Cure or Depeche Mode werent even in the running!

Surely it depends on what age one is? The Cure were putting stuff out from, when, 1978? I think I got into them about 1981. But the Smiths didn't appear till about 1984 as I remember it, by which time I liked too many bands to be a 'fan' of any in particular (apart from NO, obviously). DM were always a sort of teeny pop band, not remotely in the same catagory as NO its true, but they were fine for what they were.

Originally posted by oldmonkey You're missing the point a bit I fear - you aren't "supposed to hate" X,Y and Z if you are a New Order fan at all. What's being said is that there is this US/Canadian concept of linking bands together by "genre" and automatically identifying certain bands together, just because they are British, combine electronic and acoustic sounds and date from a certain era. This concept just doesn't exist in the UK, there's no "File Under:" categorisation, so many British fans find it quite difficult to understand this apparent American need to link bands together.

Yeah, didn't the really annoying catagory 'alternative' come from the US? On account of the big labels not liking being excluded by definition from the 'indie' charts? I wonder if this daft term 'urban' that's now popping up everwhere is another example? (What is 'rural' music, by the way? The Worzals? Isn't most rock and pop music produced by people from cities?)

Originally posted by Razed In A New Division Of Agony I do like Here To Stay better than most of Get Ready, but I have to give props to Crystal for being such a good strong come back song (no, I don't consider 'Brutal' to be their come back; more just a hint).Everyone raves about the Smiths. The only way I know about them is through a cover of How Soon Is Now by Snake River Conspiracy (any Smiths fans should check this out). I know I have a CD with the original on it somewhere, I just havent gotten around to listening to it. I think I don't give them a chance in fear that they will bore me.I have tried to like Depeche Mode, I really have, but they're terrible. Anyone could come up with those songs. I did like Rammstein's version of Stripped though.One band I've recently gotten into believe it or not is Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers. I'd like to see them collaborate with New Order. That'd be crazy.The Cure.. I own three Cure CDS: Head On The Door, Disintegration and Kiss Mex3. I only like one song off Head, maybe two off Kiss Me, and Disintegration is good as an album, but the songs individually don't really stand up against any other song I have (except the album title track and Love Song). I donno. Those were the only albums I've bought that disappointed me. Oh, well those and the latest release from Incubus. Serves me right for trying to get into a new band without downloading some first. Though Megalomaniac is alright. But I guess you have to take risks sometimes with bands you aren't familiar with, that's how I discovered HIM. They're incredibly good actually, even cover a Chris Issak song and Don't Fear The Reaper. More cowbell anyone?

Well, your problem is that you're not listening to the right Cure albums! Noticing the sort of music it says in your profile that you listen to, you MUST hear Pornography (and also Faith). Send me your address and I'll mail you a copy.

Originally posted by Razed In A New Division Of Agony but I have to give props to Crystal for being such a good strong come back song (no, I don't consider 'Brutal' to be their come back; more just a hint).

Ah-Hem! Actually...60MPH came first in those sessions. Brutal was second.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope > Originally posted by Razed In A New Division Of Agony> I do like Here To Stay better than most of Get Ready, but I have to give props to Crystal for being such a good strong come back song (no, I don't consider 'Brutal' to be their come back; more just a hint).> > Everyone raves about the Smiths. The only way I know about them is through a cover of How Soon Is Now by Snake River Conspiracy (any Smiths fans should check this out). I know I have a CD with the original on it somewhere, I just havent gotten around to listening to it. I think I don't give them a chance in fear that they will bore me.> > I have tried to like Depeche Mode, I really have, but they're terrible. Anyone could come up with those songs. I did like Rammstein's version of Stripped though.> > One band I've recently gotten into believe it or not is Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers. I'd like to see them collaborate with New Order. That'd be crazy.> > The Cure.. I own three Cure CDS: Head On The Door, Disintegration and Kiss Mex3. I only like one song off Head, maybe two off Kiss Me, and Disintegration is good as an album, but the songs individually don't really stand up against any other song I have (except the album title track and Love Song). I donno. Those were the only albums I've bought that disappointed me. Oh, well those and the latest release from Incubus. Serves me right for trying to get into a new band without downloading some first. Though Megalomaniac is alright. But I guess you have to take risks sometimes with bands you aren't familiar with, that's how I discovered HIM. They're incredibly good actually, even cover a Chris Issak song and Don't Fear The Reaper. More cowbell anyone?

Well, your problem is that you're not listening to the right Cure albums! Noticing the sort of music it says in your profile that you listen to, you MUST hear Pornography (and also Faith). Send me your address and I'll mail you a copy.

Definatly!!! You MUST get some better Cure LPs...those aren't even close to being the good ones!!

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