40 replies · 1,353 views
65 votes · voting closed
... and WHY?
I know it's too soon to judge Krafty, but we'll judge it now, we'll come back to it later in the year, see if the results changes, if Krafty is a better or worst track once time will have done its work.
Plus, it'll put a little action in here to debate about this.
Just HTS, but not by much. Neither would be a favourite of mine - we'll see if there is a better longer version of Krafty to come out yet - if there is it could tip the balance in Krafty's favour
But for the mo: Krafty: 5.5/10 HTS: 6/10
Krafty is a good song, but it´s not a classic... yet. Here to Stay has born as a classic. This is the reason I voted HTS.
Here To Stay by a considerable distance... it was such a great, catchy dance track, and the direction I'd hoped New Order would take for new material
Here to Stay is the single I hoped Krafty would be. Krafty's a bit of a disappointment after the strength of HTS, which is certainly in their top 10 best.
Has to be Here to Stay...No comparison. I ran to get that record before it was snatched up.
eCKOh
While Krafty is a catchy tune( I haven't been able to get the chorus out of my head for the past two or three days), Here To Stay is a much better track overall; the synth and drum machine sounds are much more dynamic and serious-sounding than the synths in Krafty(that wobbly bit always makes me cringe slightly). The songcraft in HTS, in my opinion, is also far superior to Krafty. The lyrics are some of Bernard's best, as are the melodies(although it isn't as immediately catchy as Krafty's melodies, and its lyrics have a certain charm to them) HTS also doesn't sound like a single thing that they've ever written, which is also a plus. It sounds like New Order moving forward.
There is a bridge also on Here To Stay (ie "We're here to stay...", Krafty has none.
However, it's not that typical of New Order to include briges in their song...
I dunno, they're both pretty good songs. If I was to rate them both it would be close but I lean a bit to Here To Stay more, maybe if I hear Krafty on my discman it will be different. I'm apt to change my opinion here and I am sure similar polls will arise once the single and/or album drops.
HTS is a very classic New Order! CB did a great production on it.
Krafty sounds like a normal album song.
Vote for "Here To Stay". Essentially, it just sounds more like vintage New Order, "Krafty" is more poppy and safe.
Both are ace but Here To Stay is the real keeper. Hearing the chant "We're here to stay.." sends a chill down the small of your back the first time you hear it.
HTS even though the intro sounds like Front 242. Basically HTS hits me on an emotional level. And like the others said it sounds more like a classic NO song. Krafty reminds me more of the lesser NO songs from Brotherhood and Technique and Get Ready. Good tunes but not on the A list, nothing that will knock you on your ass and think "My God, is there any band on Earth that can match New order?"
I tend to believe that the less lyrics in a NO song the better the song is. Krafty has more lyrics per minute than about any NO song with the exception of the lesser songs from Brotherhood, Technique and Get Ready. It's almost an Electronic with Hooky.
Here to Stay because to my ears that's a NO song.
Krafty is catchy but although the bass and voice are recognisable, I still don't find it a NO song. I think Twist hit the nail on the head: too many words by far.
Here To Stay is superior by far IMO. Krafty is a good track, but not as a first single from an album. In the last 2 albums they did the right choice for first single (Regret and Crystal), which were the strongest tracks on them. I hope this was just a bad choice and there is some tracks better than Krafty on the album. And... Bring the Bros. back!
It has to be "Krafty" for me and I think the main reasoning behind most people's choice of "Here To Stay" has more to do with the fact they've owned it as a single for the past three years, whereas Krafty has been with us barely a week in dodgy MP3 format.
I like HTS but I've never considered it New Order at their peak, or a particularly stunning single. I agreed somewhat with the NME review of it at the time "guitar strings too tight, electronics too perfect, more of a 'will-this-do?' effort" or something similar. HTS to me sounded like New Order desperately trying to offset all the guitar-ey tracks on Get Ready with an obligatory dance tune. The "swooshy" effects get on your nerves after a while and I think they will date the song even more in another few years. HTS also had alot of potential to live up to, it was meant to be a collaboration with the Chemical Brothers, but it sounded pretty ordinary compared with other 2001-period tracks like "Such A Good Thing" having more complicated and spontaneous production. I haven't rated anything the Chemicals have done since Surrender, they're pretty much a spent force these days IMO and "Come With Us" was dismally plain. UNKLE are far more interesting as leftfield DJs making "different" sounding music these days, but they get half the recognition. Figures.
"Krafty" sounds better with each listen, and I totally disagree with anyone who says it's not a strong opener single for a new album. It IS. The last New Order single off an album was 60 Miles An Hour, and you're moaning Krafty "isn't quite good enough"???? 
Piss off! 60 MPH was the weakest single they've done, and sounded like a wall of tuneless noise live. "Krafty" WILL become a classic, but not for a couple of years yet, some fans are just too attached to the older stuff. When "Regret" came out there were probably the same whines of "Well it's not quite as good as Lonesome Tonight" bandied around, but 12 years on would anyone dare say it's not a perfect New Order song? I'm not saying Krafty is quite as good as Regret, but you get my point about time vs. "a classic".
Also with "Krafty" vs. the 2001 period debate, Barney seems to have gotten his lyrics in much better order this time. The following is very clever, relevent and well-put:
"They've got violence, wars and killing too,All shrunk down in a two-foot tube,But out there the world is a beautiful place,With mountains, lakes and the human race."
Great stuff, beats Get Ready's "But I like that kind of stuff/It beats arithmetic" lyric any day.
Ally.
I haven't made up my mind about Krafty yet, but saying it's better than 60 mph and Slow Death isn't saying very much.
Originally posted by Ally3000 It has to be "Krafty" for me and I think the main reasoning behind most people's choice of "Here To Stay" has more to do with the fact they've owned it as a single for the past three years, whereas Krafty has been with us barely a week in dodgy MP3 format.I like HTS but I've never considered it New Order at their peak, or a particularly stunning single. I agreed somewhat with the NME review of it at the time "guitar strings too tight, electronics too perfect, more of a 'will-this-do?' effort" or something similar. HTS to me sounded like New Order desperately trying to offset all the guitar-ey tracks on Get Ready with an obligatory dance tune. The "swooshy" effects get on your nerves after a while and I think they will date the song even more in another few years. HTS also had alot of potential to live up to, it was meant to be a collaboration with the Chemical Brothers, but it sounded pretty ordinary compared with other 2001-period tracks like "Such A Good Thing" having more complicated and spontaneous production. I haven't rated anything the Chemicals have done since Surrender, they're pretty much a spent force these days IMO and "Come With Us" was dismally plain. UNKLE are far more interesting as leftfield DJs making "different" sounding music these days, but they get half the recognition. Figures."Krafty" sounds better with each listen, and I totally disagree with anyone who says it's not a strong opener single for a new album. It IS. The last New Order single off an album was 60 Miles An Hour, and you're moaning Krafty "isn't quite good enough"????
Also with "Krafty" vs. the 2001 period debate, Barney seems to have gotten his lyrics in much better order this time. The following is very clever, relevent and well-put:
"They've got violence, wars and killing too,All shrunk down in a two-foot tube,But out there the world is a beautiful place,With mountains, lakes and the human race."
Great stuff, beats Get Ready's "But I like that kind of stuff/It beats arithmetic" lyric any day.
Ally.
Couldn't disagree more. Much prefer Here To Stay. Haven't heard the the new Chemical's album yet(It's on order) but Star Guitar off the last one was as good as anything they've done.
I agree there are other interesting acts out there but not many who've written anything as good as Out Of Control. Also agree 60mph was poor.
Regret was pretty much an instaant classic as I recall it. The Sabres mixes never left my turntables for about a year.
That lyric you highlighted is pretty close to Sumner's nadir, thus far.
sorry, I continue dissing "Krafty". Let alone that title, do you want to listen to a song called "Krafty"? What is that? Just sounds ugly, and wasn't there supposed to be a "Lordsy" on the album, too? 
and the melody of the verse is so childish, I know 3 year olds that are more innovative... but I stop now, no word from me on Krafty anymore, I promise.
HTS instead is a real classic, that song rocks! NOthing more to say about this one. It's perfect. Would love to hear it live!
I'll let the Chemicals off with "Star Guitar". True, it was a pretty good single, but that was about it regarding the following "Come With Us" album. Perhaps my own personal tastes have simply grown away from them but I was a big fan of Hey Boy Hey Girl, Out of Control, and the Surrender album. But that was a long time ago now and they've done precious little of musical worth since. I think Hooky summed it up best, the Chemical Brothers are good for a night out, but "they don't write songs". A Chemicals song is constructed, usually involving a breakbeat, "funny noises" and a female vocal sample looped, guess I got bored of that again and again. There's other acts in that DJ genre do it much better than them now, they've been surpassed and I believe a large amount of their reputation was always based on hype anyway.
I stand by my comments about HTS tho, I'm by no means saying it's a terrible song but it seemed a bit too "Textbook New Order", and also if you notice there isn't much of a melody to the song bar the wooshing electro-effects and the chorus, at least Krafty has a bit of a tune and some warmth to it. HTS was "adequate" for a New Order release, "miles" better than 60 MPH :D but a quick fix for the band's dance fans perhaps left deflated by Get Ready's more guitar-ey sound.
Finally, disliking a song because of its title is pretty silly. Having a preconception based upon the dislike of a title then disliking the totally seperate entity of the music is brainless unless you genuinely dislike the music. I still think if you don't like the dynamic and overall sound of Krafty you simply don't like New Order. Everything that they do best individually is in that song, good mixture of drum loops/Steve, Hooky's melodic bass, Barney's guitar, great synth-strings and good lyrics with some sort of a consistent thread (Disillusion with modern day working life? As relevant as anything)
Saying that Krafty's lyrics are Barney's worst is bollocks.
Ally.
"Here to Stay."
From what "Krafty" has shown me, I do not like it that much.
I believe I am the only fan that really wants them to just give it up (after a tour near Pennsylvania of course....
)
Here to Stay,is average NewOrder. I cant hear anything special in there,what exactly did Tom & Ed do to it? Its got nothing in common with The Chemical Brothers sound,infact it sounds like a band trying to sound like NewOrder. The best thing about it is Hooky sneaks in the Happy One riff toward the ending of the full version.
Krafty? Its too early to say-i think its gonna be a grower. I hope the album delivers more though,cos the first single off the past two albums has been the highlight.
Krafty.
Here To Stay was as someone has said a bit of oh we didnt put a dance track on Get Ready so lets do one.I actually thought at the time the sound was dated then although the song itself is good.Maybe they should have done it as a giutar track.Krafty is better although not completely impressed with the chorus.But the muisc itself is 100%. Hookys bass, Steves drumming, Barney`s guitar and the keyboards are all superb
As for 60MPH i actually like the style Barney sings that song.Quite urgent and lively.The keyboard the giutar break are good.
Krafty is one catchy little tune. It's like a New Order lullaby. It's hard to compare because when I first heard HTS, I got that little stare on my face that showcases their perfect liquid melancholy presence. HTS was their best dance single since Round & Round, and brought me back to that place. It's a bit too tinny, and its production feels rushed. Krafty, on the other hand, brought a smile to my face even if it wasn't as epic. It's schmaltzy the same way Every Little Counts or World in Motion of Fine Time is. It's also reluctantly heartwarming the way Regret is. For the road, if New Order is still playing their songs 20 years from now, my bet for concert playlists is going to be Krafty. The way the current bubble-pop scene is in America, I wouldn't doubt if it became a surpise smash hit single to the disdain of the more moody purists of us out there. There were a million ways I could have made Krafty better, from drawing out "change my mind" from three beats to four, to some more guitar and electro improvisations either on top of the songs, or between verses.
I still listen to it three or four times a day.
I'll stick me neck out and say I don't think either track is 'classic' New Order. Far from it. Here to Stay was too contrived and Krafty is too lightweight for these ears. Sounds like a mash-up of Paradise vs Way of Life, and I was never than enamoured with either original. One thing that got me about HTS and Krafty is that I LOVED 'em straight off, second I heard them. Then played them to death dozens of times, and then I've just given up on both. Even Krafty, and I've only had that five days. I always find it takes me ages to 'get' New Order's finer moments and takes an age to love them, but these two are fairly safe MOR tracks, which don't have a lot to offer after the initial 100 listenings! I might be proved wrong about Krafty, but already know I'm certain about HTS. But then I'm the bloke who thought State of the Nation was the bee's knees from the day dot, then hasn't listened to it again for 19 years (and has no wish to!).
And to add to the noise pollution surrounding the Chemicals, I came on here three years ago slating Come With Us after picking it up on Melbourne airport during NO's tour Down Under. Didn't listen to it again for a year then caned it during a trip to Barbados and every track suddenly 'clicked'. Can stop and start the intro to the title track over and over again, just love the way that one builds. And the Golden Path was as good as any single they've ever released, truly sublime. The next album is a corker, but where I struggle to come to terms with them now is their over-use of guest vocalists. The opening four tracks on PTB use four different vocalists. Two of those tracks I think I'd prefer to hear as plain instrumentals. I think they've moved on a lot since their early days, can't really listen to their first two albums now, sounds like they were just trying to make dance muzak for students, and that's one audience that surely, in the main, never appreciated dance music in the first instance?
Originally posted by Peter Brown For the road, if New Order is still playing their songs 20 years from now, my bet for concert playlists is going to be Krafty.
They will be nearly 70..... 60 Miles An Hour will be 15 mph by then..... 
I notice the line beginning "out there the world is..." seems to be provoking a lot of debate. Written down, it doesn't look too bad, but I must admit, if the song was playing in front of my mates I would probably talk over that bit. Don't mind the song at all, but, having always stuck up for Bernard's lyrics I do find myself struggling here. Unfortunately, it sounds like the lyrics of a Cliff Richard song!
Krafty. The lyrics are too schmaltzy. The title is horrible. The musicianship is good. It grows on you after a while.
OK, HTS's intro was lifted from The Beach, but that aside, it was their best single since Regret.
Really a tough call...neither has been out long enough to make a good judgement.
When I first heard Here to Stay, was with the video clip, and made me aware of 24HPP, which was great. The music, was a great mix of electronics and guitars, Barney's lyrics were great as well. However, it's appeal has waned for me in the past couple of years.
While the lyrics for Krafty are sketchy at best, it has been a hell of a grower. Maybe it works better in the context of the entire album. I may soon dismiss it as poppy drivel like others have, but at this moment I enjoy it.
And to those who don't like the "pop" sound of New Order, ya should have tuned out starting 1985!
here to stay is one of my favourite NO songs. i absolutely love it; perhaps it's the chemical brothers influence. actually, that's a large part of it, to tell the truth. it's catchy (so is krafty, but not as much so...yet!) and perfect to dance to. the first time i heard it i was hooked immediately. it also reminds me of 24HPP every time i hear it, and i loved that film--associating songs with positive events always brings them up a level.
krafty's a great song--i liked it the first time i heard it--but it didn't grab me the same way here to stay did.
Here to Stay is the obvious choice for me. Krafty is a good pop song, and both songs are currently on my mp3 playlist, but I remember hearing HTS during the end credits of 24HrPP, and I was hooked. I remember, after hearing it, I ran into the lobby of the movie theater to wait for a friend who just went to the bathroom. When she came out, I exclaimed, "You just missed this new New Order song. It kicked ass!" or something like that. I liked Krafty, but it didn't grab me like HTS did. I went to the 24HrPP site the next day and downloaded the video and didn't stop listening to it on repeat. Now, in my opinion, the video for HTS is damn good, but it's very underrated and virtually got no airplay in the US. It's a dark track but you can still dance to it. Now, I like NO's poppish songs and Krafty just follows in the shoes of BLT, Regret, Round&Round, and Mr. Disco, but it's not my favorite track, like HTS.
At least with HERE TO STAY they kept their PROMISE.Hope they are not being CRAFTY now and DOING ONE!Hang around lads we STILL need you.
CLOSER TO THE EGDE -Rocket Mick and his UNKNOWN PLEASURES
Incredibly tough choice for me actually...I love HTS, love it. One of their best, but I have always been a sucker for the album tracks, and that's what Krafty is. It's All the Way, Broken Promise, etc. It clearly should not be single, but it is a damn good song....I'd be ten times better if it were a track hidden on the album for fans...love the synth line a lot....voted for Krafty
Oh, come on, comparing Krafty to Here To Stay is like comparing Run to Vanishing Point... they're all great tracks but we all know New Order give their best on those huge pumped up electro/dance tunes. We can compare Krafty to Regret and Crystal, for example. And we can compare Here To Stay to Perfect Kiss or True Faith. Of course the most recent ones aren't the winners, but that is obvious as muscicians get old and this doesn't mean those are absolutely great songs too..
I like Krafty and all. I do. It's good to listen to when you're feeling happy. But Here To Stay you can listen to whatever your mood is and love it each time. I tend to stop playing Krafty about halfway through if I'm in a mood other than happy. Sometimes I skip it all together. Krafty seems to be trying for a mix of Such A Good Thing and.. I donno what. Your Silent Face, Regret? Something. But SAGT is so cheerful it works every time. Krafty, I donno. The tune of the lyrics is too basic I guess. Yet I still like the thing. Maybe I should just shut up?
Originally posted by Razed In A New Division Of Agony I like Krafty and all. I do. It's good to listen to when you're feeling happy. But Here To Stay you can listen to whatever your mood is and love it each time. I tend to stop playing Krafty about halfway through if I'm in a mood other than happy. Sometimes I skip it all together. Krafty seems to be trying for a mix of Such A Good Thing and.. I donno what. Your Silent Face, Regret? Something. But SAGT is so cheerful it works every time. Krafty, I donno. The tune of the lyrics is too basic I guess. Yet I still like the thing. Maybe I should just shut up?
Oi! Did you ever get those Cure albums I sent you?
Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope > Originally posted by Razed In A New Division Of Agony> I like Krafty and all. I do. It's good to listen to when you're feeling happy. But Here To Stay you can listen to whatever your mood is and love it each time. I tend to stop playing Krafty about halfway through if I'm in a mood other than happy. Sometimes I skip it all together. Krafty seems to be trying for a mix of Such A Good Thing and.. I donno what. Your Silent Face, Regret? Something. But SAGT is so cheerful it works every time. Krafty, I donno. The tune of the lyrics is too basic I guess. Yet I still like the thing. Maybe I should just shut up?
Oi! Did you ever get those Cure albums I sent you?
I did actually, thank you. They aren't as bad as I had thought.
bizarre...
the huge Here To Stay preference...
i guess people are saying they like "Here to Stay" because it sound more like an 80s dance song single to them. IMO "Here to Stay" is a watered down, rather boring track. I like the B-side "Player in the League" better (even if it goes on too long), and the Felix Da Housecat remix is much more interesting than the original (always a bad signal)...
"Krafty" doesnt sound like one of NO's 80s "dance" singles, but does have all the elements of classic New order. its a nice produced track, maybe the chorus could be nicer, but it shows that the guys still have a little "life" left in the group, a unique band for over 25 years, and being a band is their strength at this point. I think "Krafty" is the cooler track, the fresher track
