New Order's Waiting For The Sirens' Call and Homer's Odyssey (Revision # 1)

The following is obviously very incomplete and accordingly a work-in-process. Updates will be posted from time to time.

Waiting for the Sirens’ Call and The Odyssey

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Introduction

The title of New Order’s album Waiting for the Sirens’ Call contains an unmistakable allusion to the best-known incident in The Odyssey, when Odysseus (“O” from now on) has himself bound to his ship’s mast and puts wax in the ears of his men so that he can safely hear the song of the sirens, which, without these precautions, would have meant certain death for all.

More generally, WFTSC and The Odyssey are both filled with numerous wondrous journeys to exotic lands.

The parallels between WFTSC and The Odyssey do not stop there.

What follows is an attempt to identify some of the additional parallels between these two illustrious works of world literature.

The best known previous “modern” work that took The Odyssey as its model was James Joyce’s novel Ulysses. One obvious parallel between WFTSC and Joyce’s Ulysses relates to the question of “styles.” In Ulysses, Joyce adopted a variety of writing styles, in an effort to make the “style” of each episode match the content of that episode. There are a variety of “styles” on WFTSC as well. The most obvious examples of stylistic variety are track 5, I Told You So, track 8, Jetstream, track 9, Guilt Is A Useless Emotion, and track 11, Working Overtime. Some listeners have found some or all of these styles on WFTSC distracting. Perhaps if they understand that there is a thematic reason for this stylistic variety, they may be more forgiving.

One final introductory note. New Order does not have the reputation of releasing “concept” albums, with the possible exception of Technique (1989). However, with the release of WFTSC and the clear parallels between WFTSC and The Odyssey, the question is retrospectively raised as to whether perhaps some or all of their previous albums may also have been concept albums. This is the band, after all, that followed the enormously successful compilation of singles and B-sides that was titled Substance (1987) with an album that they chose to call Technique (1989). One would not expect a band as subtle and intelligent as New Order to do a concept album in an obvious way.

Track 1 (Who’s Joe):

Since this is the opening track of the album, it would be expected that this track would be important for any thematic interpretation of the album. That expectation is amply fulfilled.

a. The initial click.

Many listeners hear what sounds like a click at the beginning of track 1. Among those who hear this click, most probably consider it to be an unfortunate production error. An alternative interpretation has been proposed by the NewOrderOnLine.com member who calls himself BIGINOIL, also known as Big, who is responsible for many of the insights we will be discussing here. Big proposes that the click is intended, and has thematic meaning. He suggests various possible meanings for this click: a light being switched on, fingers being snapped, a twig snapping in a forest. A light being switched on or fingers being snapped would be conventional signifiers of a starting moment. A twig snapping in a forest is not such a conventional signifier of a beginning, but in light of the convention in ancient epic poems of beginning the story “in medias res,” in the middle of things, that view as well would be very apt.

b. The bell.

This track begins (0:15 to 0:45) with the sound of a bell. An initial possible interpretation was that this was a funeral bell, announcing the funeral of the hero, and I continue to believe this aspect is one element of the bell. However, it was at this point that Big made the invaluable contribution of suggesting that this bell was in fact a ship’s bell. This was obviously an earthshaking insight and revelation on the part of Big, for which he is deserving of the warmest thanks and gratitude from us all. How could one dispute the proposition that a poem about voyaging would begin with a ship’s bell? Then H suggested that the ship’s bell was summoning O and his men from on-shore carousing to the start of their long journeying. Likely correct, I’d say. In addition, of course, this bell summons all of the rest of us to the start of the journey all of us enjoy in listening to WFTSC.

c. Who IS Joe? And who is speaking to him on this track?

“I’ll look for you” “I’ll get you home” “I’ve got to find you” “I’ll take you there”

At least one review has noted a possible homoerotic aspect to this track, in light of the fact that the male singer addresses a male character with love and a caring, protective attitude. Although New Order’s many gay fans would undoubtedly be pleased with such an interpretation, it is probably not correct. The more genuinely gay moments on the album come on later tracks.

At the start of The Odyssey, O’s son Telemachus goes in search of his long-absent father. The most likely speaker on this track is thus Telemachus, addressing the father that he is searching for.

Another possibility is that the speaker is Athena, O’s protector among the gods. If Athena is the speaker on this track, this would not be the first time that Bernard Sumner has adopted a female persona in a New Order track; the other obvious example is 1963.

“You’ve got eyes like an old wounded soldier”

Bernard Sumner has made the statement that Who’s Joe is about a tramp. O in fact repeatedly disguises himself as an aged beggar.

“They say you don’t care any more”

For those in O’s homeland, if they are not in the group that believes he must be dead, surely there are some who believe, and even say, that, having been gone this long, he doesn’t “care any more.”

d. The sound of a sea-monster breathing.

[Still to come: the sea-monster at the end of track 1.]

Track 2: (Hey Now What You Doing)

“You’ve gotta get back in control”

During O’s long absence from home, his home in Ithaca has effectively been taken over by suitors seeking to marry O’s wife Penelope, in the belief that O must be dead. When O eventually makes his way back home, it is necessary for him to “get back in control,” by getting rid of the suitors.

“Banging on an open gate”

This is one of the most memorable lines on the album, but so far I have not been able to assign an Odyssey parallel to this line. Any assistance on this point would be most appreciated.

Track 3: (Waiting for the Sirens’ Call)

This is the album’s title track, and is also considered by many to be one of the two most successful tracks on the album (along with track 10, Turn). Accordingly, one would expect this track to be particularly resonant to any thematic interpretation of the album.

“Gotta catch the midnight train”

Of course there are no railroad trains in The Odyssey, but the reference to a “midnight train” suggests dangerous and surreptitious journeys, of which there are many in The Odyssey.

“Travel with a document/ All across the continent”

I have not so far identified a precise parallel in the Odyssey for these lines, but the general notion of a messenger carrying an important document on a long and dangerous journey is certainly not foreign to the body of literature of which The Odyssey is a part.

“How many times must I lose my way”

Another one of Big’s many contributions is to identify this line as being important, a reference to the tasks or labors that are typically set for epic heroes to perform. This line is certainly descriptive of O’s lengthy wanderings.

Track 4 (Krafty):

“Looking at the stars from underneath a tree.”

In the Nausicaa episode, O spends a night sleeping in a tree. Thus, one can imagine O “looking at the stars from underneath a tree” during this experience.

O is commonly referred to as “wily,” in other words “crafty” or “krafty.” The Trojan horse was his idea, for example.

Track 5 (I Told You So):

“It’s been ten long years since I’ve been home”

This line is one of the more strikingly clear allusions to The Odyssey on WFTSC. The reference is to the length of time O has been away from home, first, because of the Trojan war, and after that because of journeys and extended involuntary stays, such as a seven-year stay on Calypso’s island. Surely it is no coincidence that the style of I Told You So is a style that every listener would associate with “the islands.”

“You conned me with your feline tricks”

A reference to Calypso and/or Circe.

Track 6 (Morning Night and Day):

Lotus-eaters. Details to follow.

Track 7 (Dracula's Castle):

Despite the surprising and almost embarrassing title of this track, this is one of the better tracks on the album.

Dracula’s Castle may be a reference to Cyclops’ cave. Cyclops is in fact a man-eater. He devours several of O’s comrades.

Track 8 (Jetstream):

“I need that engine’s push/ It’s gonna take me home to you” “Home with me”

The Odyssey is all about O trying to get home to his wife.

H has suggested that Jetstream alludes to the Aeolus episode in The Odyssey, in which O is blown back and forth by strong winds.

It has been suggested that tracks 7 and 8, Jetstream and Guilt Is A Useless Emotion, represent the Scylla and Charibdis that a listener must get past in order to reach the reward of track 10, Turn. This suggestion was obviously presented by one of those listeners who does not care for the style of these two tracks.

Track 9 (Guilt Is A Useless Emotion):

“Thinking of the joy you bring when you do that thing to me/ You sure know a lot for a girl”

This track is obviously the gay moment on the album. I’m not yet sure what that has to do with The Odyssey, but I’m sure it will become clear in time.

“Maybe I’m losing my mind”

One of many Pet Shop Boys allusions (their brilliant cover of Stephen Sondheim’s Losing My Mind). Again, the Odyssey tie-in remains to be determined.

Track 10 (Turn):

“It’s a hard way to come home”

The track’s first line refers to coming home. As noted above, The Odyssey is about O’s attempts to come home.

Many listeners feel that this track bears a strong resemblance to Leave Me Alone, the last track on Power, Corruption & Lies (1983).

Track 11 (Working Overtime):

Many listeners feel that this track reminds them of hell. I believe that reaction was intended. In The Odyssey, O visits the underworld, the home of the dead.

I still fail to see what it's all got to do with this:

Patsy's obviously a deeper thinker than me.

:\pimp3:

I'm relieved to see that you're still in the land of the living, DC. I was beginning to worry about you.

And don't think that you've fooled me with that "deep thinker" comment, DC. I know that the real reason you don't want to get into a detailed discussion is that it would reveal too many personal details about you.

Come on Pats, you have enough dirt on me for a decent novel these days.

Disappointed to see that you didn't comprehend my 'DC Pulls Pin' thread (now relocated to the 'daft side').

Perhaps your PC wasn't equipped to experience the trickery.

:\pimp3:

I thought it was a good, powerful gag, I was going to add to it but I could see that Pastie was having trouble coming to terms with the pitch of it all so I didn't contribute in fear of upsetting the world's most potent theory writer of our time.

Under the advice of the immeasurably experienced art house critics, we sought out the Rules of Attrition over the week ending.

depthcharge wrote: Come on Pats, you have enough dirt on me for a decent novel these days.

Disappointed to see that you didn't comprehend my 'DC Pulls Pin' thread (now relocated to the 'daft side').

Perhaps your PC wasn't equipped to experience the trickery.

:\pimp3:

I'm afraid I didn't understand, and still don't, DC. It seemed to be a link to the Joe's bells thread, which was still there, although damaged.

Huntsman wrote: I thought it was a good, powerful gag, I was going to add to it but I could see that Pastie was having trouble coming to terms with the pitch of it all so I didn't contribute in fear of upsetting the world's most potent theory writer of our time.

Under the advice of the immeasurably experienced art house critics, we sought out the Rules of Attrition over the week ending.

Well, perhaps you could give me some clue to understanding, H.

Did you like ROA more than I liked The Ring, H?

A possible interpretation of the name of Who's Joe has just occurred to me as I ate my lunchtime yogurt.

The Odyssey, as we all know, is an epic tale of one man's struggle against some of the most powerful forces on heaven and earth.

The hero, however, is not himself a god or a force of nature. Although undoubtedly he is a brave and intelligent man, he is just that – a man like the rest of us.

He's just an ordinary Joe.

Unfortunately our copy of ROA kept running backwards so I doubt we're best suited to dispense a proper judgment. I tried cleaning the disc but it just ran the same, even at the end when the credits scrolled upwards.

It was a surprise that Ted Danson from Danson's Creek was hired for the lead role, we hadn't been expecting that from an art house film. There was a high degree of unnecessary cursing which also came as a bit of a shock.

If I was 10, I might have liked it, but it wasn't as advanced a picture as The Ringpuller. We wondered if the actors weren't desperately attempting to out-act each other in some kind of 'act-off' reminiscent of the heady days of Fame in the 80's where spandex and leg warmers fought in the corridors to outdo each other for popularity.

To summarize, it was a bit like Daniel Darkwind and Pretty in Spandex combined. Now I like both these films, but entwined maybe they cancelled each other out.

6/10 Fair

BIGINOIL wrote: A possible interpretation of the name of Who's Joe has just occurred to me as I ate my lunchtime yogurt.

The Odyssey, as we all know, is an epic tale of one man's struggle against some of the most powerful forces on heaven and earth.

The hero, however, is not himself a god or a force of nature. Although undoubtedly he is a brave and intelligent man, he is just that – a man like the rest of us.

He's just an ordinary Joe.

There is nothing ordinary about Joe, have you not read Charles Worthington and his Fabulous Chocolate Refinery? ... was it not Grandpa Joseph who first appreciated the power of the Charles Worthington's chocolate bar? Without Grandpa Joe, there would be no enormous, jet propelled elevator, and certainly no Umpa Lumpa people to run the bus service in Swansea.

Huntsman wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote: A possible interpretation of the name of Who's Joe has just occurred to me as I ate my lunchtime yogurt.

The Odyssey, as we all know, is an epic tale of one man's struggle against some of the most powerful forces on heaven and earth.

The hero, however, is not himself a god or a force of nature. Although undoubtedly he is a brave and intelligent man, he is just that – a man like the rest of us.

He's just an ordinary Joe.

There is nothing ordinary about Joe, have you not read Charles Worthington and his Fabulous Chocolate Refinery? ... was it not Grandpa Joseph who first appreciated the power of the Charles Worthington's chocolate bar? Without Grandpa Joe, there would be no enormous, jet propelled elevator, and certainly no Umpa Lumpa people to run the bus service in Swansea.

Another fine example of an ordinary man who achieves extraordinary things.

BIGINOIL wrote: A possible interpretation of the name of Who's Joe has just occurred to me as I ate my lunchtime yogurt.

The Odyssey, as we all know, is an epic tale of one man's struggle against some of the most powerful forces on heaven and earth.

The hero, however, is not himself a god or a force of nature. Although undoubtedly he is a brave and intelligent man, he is just that – a man like the rest of us.

He's just an ordinary Joe.

As usual, Big, you've put your finger on it. I had been having vague, inarticulate musings that might eventually have led me there, but you have saved me all that labor.

Once again, thank you, Big.

The sky is high, the road is long.

Huntsman wrote: Unfortunately our copy of ROA kept running backwards so I doubt we're best suited to dispense a proper judgment. I tried cleaning the disc but it just ran the same, even at the end when the credits scrolled upwards.

It was a surprise that Ted Danson from Danson's Creek was hired for the lead role, we hadn't been expecting that from an art house film. There was a high degree of unnecessary cursing which also came as a bit of a shock.

If I was 10, I might have liked it, but it wasn't as advanced a picture as The Ringpuller. We wondered if the actors weren't desperately attempting to out-act each other in some kind of 'act-off' reminiscent of the heady days of Fame in the 80's where spandex and leg warmers fought in the corridors to outdo each other for popularity.

To summarize, it was a bit like Daniel Darkwind and Pretty in Spandex combined. Now I like both these films, but entwined maybe they cancelled each other out.

6/10 Fair

I'm very sorry you didn't like it, H. Perhaps we should stop recommending films to each other.

I think the film probably destroyed Danson's career. He's done nothing since.

Huntsman wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote: He's just an ordinary Joe.

There is nothing ordinary about Joe.

Sorry to quote you twice, Whattock, I have taken the liberty to edit your post in order to minimise the offence caused.

I wanted to point out that my reference to "ordianry Joe" was based on my belief that this is a common expression amongst our American cousins. Can anyone confirm this is the case? It would be very damaging to my reputation if I was wrong.

I understood all, Mr Norman, and I can concur that the 'average Joe' is representative of a nondescript, United States Burger King dweller; point clarified.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Huntsman wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote: He's just an ordinary Joe.

There is nothing ordinary about Joe.

Sorry to quote you twice, Whattock, I have taken the liberty to edit your post in order to minimise the offence caused.

I wanted to point out that my reference to "ordianry Joe" was based on my belief that this is a common expression amongst our American cousins. Can anyone confirm this is the case? It would be very damaging to my reputation if I was wrong.

There's also G.I. Joe.

In other words, a soldier, like O.

Patrick wrote: I'm afraid I didn't understand, and still don't, DC. It seemed to be a link to the Joe's bells thread, which was still there, although damaged.

Perhaps if I change targets it will elicit a smile.

I shall attempt to summon the Zoltarian fleet to attack Hucklebutt:

We Come in Peace!

:\pimp3:

You guys need to get out more - computers have fried your brains

It was only a matter of time.

depthcharge wrote:

Patrick wrote: I'm afraid I didn't understand, and still don't, DC. It seemed to be a link to the Joe's bells thread, which was still there, although damaged.

Perhaps if I change targets it will elicit a smile.

I shall attempt to summon the Zoltarian fleet to attack Hucklebutt:

We Come in Peace!

:\pimp3:

Did you have those thingies on the other one, DC?

Somehow I failed to notice them. Must have been a weekend.

I'm glad to see you're in an apparently friendly mood today, DC.

You could have made more use of Homeric metre and similar lyrical construction made by B.Sumner esq I suppose, but besides that and the blatant attempt to appeal to the film-watching nouveau-Trojan aficionados as opposed to the classical Greek scholar, this was quite an interesting attempt. What next though? Power, Corruption and Lies seen through the blurred vision of Thucydides, the original brainwashed Attic cyclops?

oldmonkey wrote: You could have made more use of Homeric metre and similar lyrical construction made by B.Sumner esq I suppose, but besides that and the blatant attempt to appeal to the film-watching nouveau-Trojan aficionados as opposed to the classical Greek scholar, this was quite an interesting attempt. What next though? Power, Corruption and Lies seen through the blurred vision of Thucydides, the original brainwashed Attic cyclops?

This one is far from finished. Can't think beyond the current task.

I'm certainly not qualified to do it from the perspective of a classical Greek scholar. If there are any of those in the room, raise your hands.

Patrick wrote:

depthcharge wrote:

Patrick wrote: I'm afraid I didn't understand, and still don't, DC. It seemed to be a link to the Joe's bells thread, which was still there, although damaged.

Perhaps if I change targets it will elicit a smile.

I shall attempt to summon the Zoltarian fleet to attack Hucklebutt:

We Come in Peace!

:\pimp3:

Did you have those thingies on the other one, DC?

Somehow I failed to notice them. Must have been a weekend.

I'm glad to see you're in an apparently friendly mood today, DC.

All I could see was an ocean full of fish.

Patrick wrote:

oldmonkey wrote: You could have made more use of Homeric metre and similar lyrical construction made by B.Sumner esq I suppose, but besides that and the blatant attempt to appeal to the film-watching nouveau-Trojan aficionados as opposed to the classical Greek scholar, this was quite an interesting attempt. What next though? Power, Corruption and Lies seen through the blurred vision of Thucydides, the original brainwashed Attic cyclops?

This one is far from finished. Can't think beyond the current task.

I'm certainly not qualified to do it from the perspective of a classical Greek scholar. If there are any of those in the room, raise your hands.

You'll not find many schooled in the ways of the ancient Greek raising their hands - a surefire way to part with one's talents. In any case, we haven't appointed the archons yet.

How can I be of assistance?

Huntsman wrote: Unfortunately our copy of ROA kept running backwards so I doubt we're best suited to dispense a proper judgment. I tried cleaning the disc but it just ran the same, even at the end when the credits scrolled upwards.

It was a surprise that Ted Danson from Danson's Creek was hired for the lead role, we hadn't been expecting that from an art house film. There was a high degree of unnecessary cursing which also came as a bit of a shock.

If I was 10, I might have liked it, but it wasn't as advanced a picture as The Ringpuller. We wondered if the actors weren't desperately attempting to out-act each other in some kind of 'act-off' reminiscent of the heady days of Fame in the 80's where spandex and leg warmers fought in the corridors to outdo each other for popularity.

To summarize, it was a bit like Daniel Darkwind and Pretty in Spandex combined. Now I like both these films, but entwined maybe they cancelled each other out.

6/10 Fair

By the way, H, do you recall which particular actors you felt were overdoing it?

Or is it just too painful to think about?

oldmonkey wrote:

Patrick wrote:

oldmonkey wrote: You could have made more use of Homeric metre and similar lyrical construction made by B.Sumner esq I suppose, but besides that and the blatant attempt to appeal to the film-watching nouveau-Trojan aficionados as opposed to the classical Greek scholar, this was quite an interesting attempt. What next though? Power, Corruption and Lies seen through the blurred vision of Thucydides, the original brainwashed Attic cyclops?

This one is far from finished. Can't think beyond the current task.

I'm certainly not qualified to do it from the perspective of a classical Greek scholar. If there are any of those in the room, raise your hands.

You'll not find many schooled in the ways of the ancient Greek raising their hands - a surefire way to part with one's talents. In any case, we haven't appointed the archons yet.

How can I be of assistance?

In any way that strikes your fancy, sir.

It's hard for those who are totally ignorant to know which questions are the right ones to ask.

If any other parallels occur to you based on a possibly greater familiarity with the original work, feel free to bring them up.

Or anything else.

Patrick wrote: Or is it just too painful to think about?

We quite enjoyed it P to be honest, it was just a slow starter which isn't a bad thing.

The two freshman ladies who shared a dorm. seemed to be perpetually at odds with each other jostling for the camera. Van der Beak was better than in Cheers, and if we hadn't seen Cheers we wouldn't have any pre-amble to wade through. Did the director hand him an instruction of how to look most menacing?

The fella that popped up with his shades on was a revelation.

I have to tell you though, that we witnessed The Ring-pull 2 last week ... I was too scared to mention it then though.

Huntsman wrote:

Patrick wrote: Or is it just too painful to think about?

We quite enjoyed it P to be honest, it was just a slow starter which isn't a bad thing.

The two freshman ladies who shared a dorm. seemed to be perpetually at odds with each other jostling for the camera. Van der Beak was better than in Cheers, and if we hadn't seen Cheers we wouldn't have any pre-amble to wade through. Did the director hand him an instruction of how to look most menacing?

The fella that popped up with his shades on was a revelation.

I have to tell you though, that we witnessed The Ring-pull 2 last week ... I was too scared to mention it then though.

I'm glad it wasn't a total waste of time for you. Are you referring to "Dick"? Most viewers consider him to be the high point of the film, rightly so, I believe.

But you thought it was slow in starting? You didn't like the scenes with the reversed film?

I don't suppose you're interested in discussing the potential intepretation of that device?

Was there anything about Lady of the Rings 2 that would make me like it better than the first one?

Track 2: (Hey Now What You Doing) “Banging on an open gate”This is one of the most memorable lines on the album, but so far I have not been able to assign an Odyssey parallel to this line. Any assistance on this point would be most appreciated.

Cursory inspection (if indeed the marriage of two such words is not oxymoronic) would place Troy close to the neck of the Bosphorus, the gate to the east. The Trojan Horse opened that gate.

Track 3: (Waiting for the Sirens’ Call) “Gotta catch the midnight train” Of course there are no railroad trains in The Odyssey, but the reference to a “midnight train” suggests dangerous and surreptitious journeys, of which there are many in The Odyssey.

Not all trains are motorised, wagon trains typified Eastwood's millions, and convoy would be required to cross from Hellenic mainland to the foothills of the Dardanelles.

“Travel with a document/ All across the continent”I have not so far identified a precise parallel in the Odyssey for these lines, but the general notion of a messenger carrying an important document on a long and dangerous journey is certainly not foreign to the body of literature of which The Odyssey is a part.

With or without document? Without may be a better fit in the lyrical scheme of things. Stone tablets were transportable, but only in smaller size.

RE: P's earlier question:

The only thing you may find interesting is that the ring is actually the top of the well (the shape of the well) where the girl was imprisoned.

I took the film reversal effect as a metaphor for how lives are a series of events based on coincidence. If life were reversed, would different events have taken place.

oldmonkey wrote: Track 2: (Hey Now What You Doing) “Banging on an open gate”This is one of the most memorable lines on the album, but so far I have not been able to assign an Odyssey parallel to this line. Any assistance on this point would be most appreciated.

Cursory inspection (if indeed the marriage of two such words is not oxymoronic) would place Troy close to the neck of the Bosphorus, the gate to the east. The Trojan Horse opened that gate ...

... cue the greek aficionado, hair windswept, walking into the fray from the forest.

oldmonkey wrote: Track 2: (Hey Now What You Doing) “Banging on an open gate”This is one of the most memorable lines on the album, but so far I have not been able to assign an Odyssey parallel to this line. Any assistance on this point would be most appreciated.

Cursory inspection (if indeed the marriage of two such words is not oxymoronic) would place Troy close to the neck of the Bosphorus, the gate to the east. The Trojan Horse opened that gate.

Track 3: (Waiting for the Sirens’ Call) “Gotta catch the midnight train” Of course there are no railroad trains in The Odyssey, but the reference to a “midnight train” suggests dangerous and surreptitious journeys, of which there are many in The Odyssey.

Not all trains are motorised, wagon trains typified Eastwood's millions, and convoy would be required to cross from Hellenic mainland to the foothills of the Dardanelles.

“Travel with a document/ All across the continent”I have not so far identified a precise parallel in the Odyssey for these lines, but the general notion of a messenger carrying an important document on a long and dangerous journey is certainly not foreign to the body of literature of which The Odyssey is a part.

With or without document? Without may be a better fit in the lyrical scheme of things. Stone tablets were transportable, but only in smaller size.

I'm glad to see you are entering into the spirit of things, OM. If you're not careful, you may start revealing personal details.

I feel that these responses will require careful study on my part before being incorporated, probably inaccurately, in my little piece.

I thank you most warmly for your expert contribution, kind sir.

Feel free to continue, or not, as you choose.

Huntsman wrote: RE: P's earlier question:

The only thing you may find interesting is that the ring is actually the top of the well (the shape of the well) where the girl was imprisoned.

I took the film reversal effect as a metaphor for how lives are a series of events based on coincidence. If life were reversed, would different events have taken place.

It took me about twelve viewings to arrive at the understanding you achieved with one, H.

Pastry, I've had a response on the lotus eaters section - has that been resolved yet?

Huntsman wrote: Pastry, I've had a response on the lotus eaters section - has that been resolved yet?

Only that it's probably track 6. That's as far as we've gotten.

Huntsman wrote: RE: P's earlier question:

The only thing you may find interesting is that the ring is actually the top of the well (the shape of the well) where the girl was imprisoned.

I took the film reversal effect as a metaphor for how lives are a series of events based on coincidence. If life were reversed, would different events have taken place.

Is this the subtitled original or the remake?

Two films in discussion today Hanksford; The Hollywood Rings and Rules of Attractiveness.

If there are any horror-genre poseurs ... ?

Lotus-eaters, H?

I'm currently clarifying P - I haven't forgotten.

Huntsman wrote: Two films in discussion today Hanksford; The Hollywood Rings and Rules of Attractiveness.

If there are any horror-genre poseurs ... ?

Am I right in thinking The Ring and it's sequel were originally Japanese but remade in English?

I fell asleep half way through each one last week. Managed to piece together what happened in the 1st one from the start of the 2nd. Are they planning a 3rd?

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Huntsman wrote: Two films in discussion today Hanksford; The Hollywood Rings and Rules of Attractiveness.

If there are any horror-genre poseurs ... ?

Am I right in thinking The Ring and it's sequel were originally Japanese but remade in English?

I fell asleep half way through each one last week. Managed to piece together what happened in the 1st one from the start of the 2nd. Are they planning a 3rd?

I hope not.

There are, I think, '3' Japanese 'Ring' movies. Hollywood re-made a combination of two of them and then released Ring 2 which comprised elements of the Japanese Ring which was released during their first effort.

Are you following this?

The Japanese versions are perceived to be scarier, but I thoroughly enjoyed the Hollywood re-makes.

Patrick really enjoyed The Ring movies and I'm certain will be delighting in his thread being an open forum for discussions about them.

Huntsman wrote: Patrick really enjoyed The Ring movies and I'm certain will be delighting in his thread being an open forum for discussions about them.

You're quite right, H, Peter Jackson's trilogy are among my favorite films, along with ROA of course.

Patrick wrote: Lotus-eaters, H?

I'm going out on a limb here with appropriations of text and interpretations from the expert but here goes ...

The Ciconians populated an island which offered hospitality to Homer's homeys. After crash landing their sea vessel H and the gang proceeded to scoff pigs, sup tea, slaughter geese and be downright nasty to the Ciconians.

When the C's asked the homeys to get stuffed, the stubborn homeys ate and drank even more, and even used the tennis courts when the sign clearly stated that they were being refurbished.

After a while the Cpeople got some of their own neighboring crew on board and took vengeance on most of the homeys - although some made it back to the wagon.

The 'lotus-eater' motif is something to do with eating / drinking and never coming back ... a bit like visiting a McDonald's for the first time.

Huntsman wrote:

Patrick wrote: Lotus-eaters, H?

I'm going out on a limb here with appropriations of text and interpretations from the expert but here goes ...

The Ciconians populated an island which offered hospitality to Homer's homeys. After crash landing their sea vessel H and the gang proceeded to scoff pigs, sup tea, slaughter geese and be downright nasty to the Ciconians.

When the C's asked the homeys to get stuffed, the stubborn homeys ate and drank even more, and even used the tennis courts when the sign clearly stated that they were being refurbished.

After a while the Cpeople got some of their own neighboring crew on board and took vengeance on most of the homeys - although some made it back to the wagon.

The 'lotus-eater' motif is something to do with eating / drinking and never coming back ... a bit like visiting a McDonald's for the first time.

That was a delight to read, H, as your compositions always are. Could you point out a little more clearly the lines in track 6 or elsewhere on WFTSC that reference these incidents?

Patrick wrote:

Huntsman wrote:

Patrick wrote: Lotus-eaters, H?

I'm going out on a limb here with appropriations of text and interpretations from the expert but here goes ...

The Ciconians populated an island which offered hospitality to Homer's homeys. After crash landing their sea vessel H and the gang proceeded to scoff pigs, sup tea, slaughter geese and be downright nasty to the Ciconians.

When the C's asked the homeys to get stuffed, the stubborn homeys ate and drank even more, and even used the tennis courts when the sign clearly stated that they were being refurbished.

After a while the Cpeople got some of their own neighboring crew on board and took vengeance on most of the homeys - although some made it back to the wagon.

The 'lotus-eater' motif is something to do with eating / drinking and never coming back ... a bit like visiting a McDonald's for the first time.

That was a delight to read, H, as your compositions always are. Could you point out a little more clearly the lines in track 6 or elsewhere on WFTSC that reference these incidents?

Who cares? It's a cracking story!

I've had an update, I'll recompile.

Patrick wrote: Did you have those thingies on the other one, DC?

Somehow I failed to notice them. Must have been a weekend.

I'm glad to see you're in an apparently friendly mood today, DC.

By "thingies" I assume you refer to the UFO gunships?

No, there were no UFOs in the other thread, it was a disaster far more topical. You need to re-check it and wait for the doom to unfold before your eyes Pats.

:\pimp3:

Again, this is a paraphrase / text acquisition / limbo dance routine ...

Homeboy's arrival at the Ciconian gig marked a low point in his career. He had become lazy on vast profits gained from record sales on his new label. Having also been recently featured on Cribs all of the homey's wanted to laze around with Homer-boy and they didn't realise that the 'lotus-fruit' or blow was making them even more placid. As they 'hung-out' they forgot their families back in the hood and all the while rivaling gangs were brandishing their weaponry. With record sales sliding, the C's released a Euro-pop anthem that just about obliterated H and the Homey's ... who duly scarp-erred back to their ride.

The postscript to this is that H and the gang then took it upon themselves to visit the Cyclops wedging a piece of wood in his one good eye.

Huntsman wrote: Again, this is a paraphrase / text acquisition / limbo dance routine ...

Homeboy's arrival at the Ciconian gig marked a low point in his career. He had become lazy on vast profits gained from record sales on his new label. Having also been recently featured on Cribs all of the homey's wanted to laze around with Homer-boy and they didn't realise that the 'lotus-fruit' or blow was making them even more placid. As they 'hung-out' they forgot their families back in the hood and all the while rivaling gangs were brandishing their weaponry. With record sales sliding, the C's released a Euro-pop anthem that just about obliterated H and the Homey's ... who duly scarp-erred back to their ride.

The postscript to this is that H and the gang then took it upon themselves to visit the Cyclops wedging a piece of wood in his one good eye.

It's beginning to sound like the Biggy and Tupac story, with a guest appearence by that Gabrielle woman.

Is there a rap album entitled 'Homey's Odyssey'?

The English equivalent may be 'Benjamin's Quest for Lightly Buttered Scones'

Norman, have you ever seen the hit film; 'Ghost Rig'?

Huntsman wrote: Is there a rap album entitled 'Homey's Odyssey'?

The English equivalent may be 'Benjamin's Quest for Lightly Buttered Scones'

Pat is phat, Whattock is nasty, DJ DC's buying, A mother f*****g pastie.

Peace out!

Huntsman wrote: Norman, have you ever seen the hit film; 'Ghost Rig'?

My wife saw it. She says it's shit.

It's time for me to eat my lunch.

What's gotten into DC?

He's so mild today.

Do you suppose he's ill?

His posting has been erratic at the extreme. When he ventures back to comment on a back catalogue number of almost no consequence I might ask him if he has seen Ghost Rig, the hit movie.

Patrick wrote: It's time for me to eat my lunch.

What's gotten into DC?

He's so mild today.

Do you suppose he's ill?

What are you having for lunch?

I had a yogurt and then thought of the answer to Who's Joe.

Certainly the best things to happen since I put my underpants on this morning.

Huntsman wrote: His posting has been erratic at the extreme. When he ventures back to comment on a back catalogue number of almost no consequence I might ask him if he has seen Ghost Rig, the hit movie.

Missing S there, Whatty.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Huntsman wrote: His posting has been erratic at the extreme. When he ventures back to comment on a back catalogue number of almost no consequence I might ask him if he has seen Ghost Rig, the hit movie.

Missing S there, Whatty.

I can't comment, I haven't seen it.

BIGINOIL wrote:

Patrick wrote: It's time for me to eat my lunch.

What's gotten into DC?

He's so mild today.

Do you suppose he's ill?

What are you having for lunch?

I had a yogurt and then thought of the answer to Who's Joe.

Certainly the best things to happen since I put my underpants on this morning.

The same as always lately: baked fish, tomatoes, and cucumbers (sliced).

In light of your answer, and OM's contribution, I have my work cut out on the next revision.

And I need to put in something about Barney and boats.

Lunch did not produce any revelations for me I'm afraid.

Huntsman wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Huntsman wrote: His posting has been erratic at the extreme. When he ventures back to comment on a back catalogue number of almost no consequence I might ask him if he has seen Ghost Rig, the hit movie.

Missing S there, Whatty.

I can't comment, I haven't seen it.

This is getting a bit silly. Posting about a film you have not seen, especially one which has no relevance to the legends of the Greek Gods, is not appropriate on this thread.

Look chaps, it’s obvious that you’re not taking the Odyssey theory at all seriously. Please address the subject with a little more deference or move to a different thread. It’s getting really hard to sort out the serious ideas from the silly chatter. Patrick is working very hard, and don’t forget he has to pretend to do his real job as well. Let’s try and support him as much as we can.

What was that British Drama series about an oil rig called? That was shocking.

Would a thread named 'Friends of Ghost Rig' be more appropriate?

Although I did declare that I hadn't seen it, I actually had.

Now who's the silly one.

I shall retire from ever posting anything for evermore, right now.

Whip off your loincloths fettlers and feed them to the Cyclops - I've finally found me old tapdancing crew!

Did someone say lunch? Who's up for pickle and Leicester on rye? Who ordered lotus? I'm buying!

BIGINOIL wrote:

Huntsman wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote:

Huntsman wrote: His posting has been erratic at the extreme. When he ventures back to comment on a back catalogue number of almost no consequence I might ask him if he has seen Ghost Rig, the hit movie.

Missing S there, Whatty.

I can't comment, I haven't seen it.

This is getting a bit silly. Posting about a film you have not seen, especially one which has no relevance to the legends of the Greek Gods, is not appropriate on this thread.

Look chaps, it’s obvious that you’re not taking the Odyssey theory at all seriously. Please address the subject with a little more deference or move to a different thread. It’s getting really hard to sort out the serious ideas from the silly chatter. Patrick is working very hard, and don’t forget he has to pretend to do his real job as well. Let’s try and support him as much as we can.

What was that British Drama series about an oil rig called? That was shocking.

Thanks very much for your assistance, Big.

I'm beginning to think it's a lost cause in some quarters.

The True Huntsman wrote: Whip off your loincloths fettlers and feed them to the Cyclops - I've finally found me old tapdancing crew!

Did someone say lunch? Who's up for pickle and Leicester on rye? Who ordered lotus? I'm buying!

That sound just a tiny bit forced, DC.

I've decided to post again, just to make sure that there is no uncertainty over the hit film Ghost Rig, I definitely have seen it.

Now, as you were, I'll not interfere anymore with pertinent details which would help complete a theory I'm slowly being written out of.

Huntsman wrote: I've decided to post again, just to make sure that there is no uncertainty over the hit film Ghost Rig, I definitely have seen it.

Any Odyssey references in the film, What?

Patrick wrote:

The True Huntsman wrote: Whip off your loincloths fettlers and feed them to the Cyclops - I've finally found me old tapdancing crew!

Did someone say lunch? Who's up for pickle and Leicester on rye? Who ordered lotus? I'm buying!

That sound just a tiny bit forced, DC.

I really do think he must be ill.

Have you been to the doctor, DC?

Think you're tapping at the wrong birdcage, Pastie...

Ain't seen DC here for nuts.

Anyone remember OneLoveStory??

The True Huntsman wrote: Think you're tapping at the wrong birdcage, Pastie...

Ain't seen DC here for nuts.

Have a mirror handy?

Nope. But I'm keen.

Here we go... Holding it up... Now...

The True Huntsman wrote: Here we go... Holding it up... Now...

Do I detect a goatee on one of those smilies?

Do I detect flounder on that breath?

As usual, the question is, what was there before the edit.

Patrick wrote: As usual, the question is, what was there before the edit.

More importantly, it's good to see that the thread is back on track following my little pep talk!

Patrick wrote: As usual, the question is, what was there before the edit.

A: Un-edited material.

Still think it's Muffy.

:\pimp3:

depthcharge wrote: Still think it's Muffy.

:\pimp3:

Aye, Muffy used to say fettlers.

I don't think it's Muffy.

Wasn't there two fake me's kicking around? - I always thought that was quite oddball.

Muffball always signs-off with the red smoking legend, perhaps the use of 'fettler' is a red herring bone? - I used fettler myself in a past life, which could dispel the presence of Muffin still furthermore.

I wouldn't rule out that it's 'not' DC though, having been certain I'm starting to have some doubts. It isn't me though, I recently had trouble enough trying to alter 'H' untsman to 'h' untsman and finally gave up.

Are you still peeved with me, H?

Never sir, never. In fact, I spent a great deal of time pondering a baked fish joke just after clarifying the use of the tearful smiley but I wasn't happy with the material and decided to have a cup of tea instead.

I'm currently running through a serious attempt to create one definitive compact disc of my favourite NO moments (which is why I'm on a computing device with access to discography's and the like) and it dawned on me that I hadn't heard 'Spanish Heart' in so long. Too long I'd say, plus Bernard's collaboration with Sub-Sub from not so long ago.

Have you heard "The Heart of the Spaniard' P? - it's very much in that special insular euphoric zonal district where LMA, DA etc. hold tight. A Right 808 State crafted the song specifically for Mr. Summersby during the summer of, hmmmm ... well, it was about 1989.

Never heard it, never heard of it before, H.

I was greatly surprised by your interest in remixes. My recollection is the SLY ones were even worse than most.

Well P, back in the day, I made it my mission to track down every alternate version of anything NO ever committed to I was that besotted by their music. Until I'd traipsed through hail and thunder to plunder the many recording fates in order to extend my bounty to a full collection I wouldn't rest.

The Republican put pay to that though, the dip in quality too much to stomach.

After their recent revival I decided to formulate a definitive disc, which I figured must include at least some of the early re-mixes, which I obviously consider an integral part of their total output.

I have mentioned this in passing, but discussions are usually on new material and thus my remarks are mostly unpleasing to the eye.

Well, as I said, if my recollection can be trusted, you can safely skip the SLY remixes.

Are you on the lookout for Jetstream promos?

Patrick wrote: Well, as I said, if my recollection can be trusted, you can safely skip the SLY remixes.

Are you on the lookout for Jetstream promos?

Not keen on James Holden's Heavy Dub mix?

RE: P.

Not particularly, in light of the above commentary. As I admitted recently though, I enjoyed the Richard X new incarnation, but I can wait until my local grocery store has it.

The SLY mixes - I still like to hear them all, even if they're begrudgingly dismissed. I'll not have the best expectations though, tip received.

But P, if we agree on LMA, TMW, T, WFTSC, AOC ... then I cannot see a reason not to agree on Spanish Heart. It's not NO, so there's no Hooky, Steve or Gillian, but what you have is a desperately beautiful melody created of course by Bernard, parried with a wonderfully atmospheric lyric. The music is like Electronic, except good (808 State having an impeccable record for cutting edge sounds back when MJ was Bad).

I've just checked and it would seem the CD became available again in 1996 ...

Also, it's on the fabulous ZTT label - home of the Art of Noise (nostalgia, pure nostalgia).http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000250EV/qid=1113253112/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-3302501-4475808

I'm going to edit that god damn post until the internet things working properly.

Well I will have to keep it in mind, H.

HW, my recollection of the SLY remixes doesn't extend to distinguishing one from another. I do recall that I probably paid eil too much money for them.

Huntsman wrote: I'm going to edit that god damn post until the internet things working properly.

I have never been able to make them work because the feature box covers the edit key.