Had a heated debate many years ago about who copied who, did 'New Order' copy 'The Cure' or was it the other way around. I like to think that The Cure copied New Order, especially the guitar playing of Bernhard and Peter. Could be wrong, anybody else have a view on this?
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Who copied Who?
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Are you referring specifically to Inbetween Days and Dreams Never End? I belive that Robert thought NO had ripped off the bassline from A Forest and used it on Sunrise, so he felt obliged to rip off Dreams Never End to create Inbetween Days. Correct?
Hooky's kind of watery bass sound heavily influenced The Cure and it shows up on tracks like Just Like Heaven off of KISS ME KISS ME KISS ME. But both bands have had an influence on each other.
Conduct wrote: Are you referring specifically to Inbetween Days and Dreams Never End? I belive that Robert thought NO had ripped off the bassline from A Forest and used it on Sunrise, so he felt obliged to rip off Dreams Never End to create Inbetween Days. Correct?
I'd say The Cure rips off NO - Hooky's kind of watery bass sound heavily influenced The Cure and it shows up on tracks like Just Like Heaven off of KISS ME KISS ME KISS ME.
You mean "All The Way" off Kiss Me x3 ???? ;)
The bands moved in similar circles in the late 70s and early 80s. JD opened for The Cure a couple of times. Both bands undoubtedly influenced each other to a degree, as did a whole range of other bands around the same time who were making similar records. I cannot hear the A Forest bass in Sunrise at all, and In Between Days just sounds like New Order rather than any specific track. I think when Simon Gallup commissioned a bespoke bass the same as Hooky's Eccleshalls, then the accusations and counter-accusations started gathering some momentum.
At the end of the day though, nobody gives a fuck. New Order don't, a couple of barbed quotes in interviews don't amount to much, and The Cure are just glad to be mentioned in the same breath as godlike geniuses. It's only the fans who care!
According to Mojo article on Joy Division, the reason why Hooky's bass sounds the way it does is because his original bass guitar was a cheapy and wasn't working right. And the only way you could hear it was to play the higher notes. It was a happy accident.
oldmonkey wrote:
Conduct wrote: Are you referring specifically to Inbetween Days and Dreams Never End? I belive that Robert thought NO had ripped off the bassline from A Forest and used it on Sunrise, so he felt obliged to rip off Dreams Never End to create Inbetween Days. Correct?
I'd say The Cure rips off NO - Hooky's kind of watery bass sound heavily influenced The Cure and it shows up on tracks like Just Like Heaven off of KISS ME KISS ME KISS ME.
You mean "All The Way" off Kiss Me x3 ???? ;)
The bands moved in similar circles in the late 70s and early 80s. JD opened for The Cure a couple of times. Both bands undoubtedly influenced each other to a degree, as did a whole range of other bands around the same time who were making similar records. I cannot hear the A Forest bass in Sunrise at all, and In Between Days just sounds like New Order rather than any specific track. I think when Simon Gallup commissioned a bespoke bass the same as Hooky's Eccleshalls, then the accusations and counter-accusations started gathering some momentum.
At the end of the day though, nobody gives a fuck. New Order don't, a couple of barbed quotes in interviews don't amount to much, and The Cure are just glad to be mentioned in the same breath as godlike geniuses. It's only the fans who care!
Yeah, it's true. As Ian said anyway, "You tend to be influenced by everything you hear." And yes - it doesn't matter. It's not as if either band ripped off the other to the extent that it becomes deplorable and really tasteless. They are both their own bands (although I obviously think one is a heck of a lot better;)) with their own music and their own sound. I didn't mean to sound like I have it in for The Cure or something or that I really care very much at all, because I don't!
Dima wrote: According to Mojo article on Joy Division, the reason why Hooky's bass sounds the way it does is because his original bass guitar was a cheapy and wasn't working right. And the only way you could hear it was to play the higher notes. It was a happy accident.
A nice story, but I'm not sure how true it was! There wasn't a lot of high bass for a long time when they were writing songs, can't really think of it arriving before She's Lost Control in January 1979. They'd written 20 songs before that!
Think about it. A bunch of young punks... at that age, nothing but accidents happen. Especially when you take into consideration that they barely knew how to play their instruments in the first place.
Dima wrote: According to Mojo article on Joy Division, the reason why Hooky's bass sounds the way it does is because his original bass guitar was a cheapy and wasn't working right. And the only way you could hear it was to play the higher notes. It was a happy accident.
A Gibson EB0 is a cheapie? 
Well, Hooky himself sells that story (of having to play up the neck due to a crap bass guitar and noisy studio neighbors) in multiple interviews, as do the other factory fellas over the years....
so if it ain't true, it is a good story. and one they have been sticking with for decades.
and, high bass lines WERE a Joy Division signature prior to She's Lost Control... especially when one listens in the context of other bands of the time... lead bass was not very common as it is today...
Digital was recorded for the Factory Sampler in October 78, and shows the first hints of the upper bass notes. Glass, recorded at the same session, has similar upper registers being hit by the young Hookster in a spidery line... these songs must have been written in Summer 1978. This was FAC 2, hard to get much earlier with Joy Division!
So, yeah, Warsaw material (their tunes prior to 1978) did not have too much upper bass notes, but this was Hook still finding his sound, the band still finding their sound, and I am pretty sure they were not in the Davidson rehearsal studios yet, where Hook said he had to turn up and play high due to loud bands rehearsing next door...
And, Hook has claimed that much himself. Makes sense to me...
Didn't understand the deal with the bass. Who plays bass like Hooky? Gallup. Gallup was not The Cure original bass player - Michael Dempsey. No doubt Hooky stile is Hooky creation. Even the guy from OMD played bass louder earlier The Cure 
Here's the rub, as suggested by the missus:
Basically all of the songs that The Cure are accused of ripping off from our boys were from the period when Lol Tolhurst was in the band, and since he was the least talented of the bunch, we can all blame him for everything. After all, it was just him and Robert in the band when they did The Walk....
As for Bono, he's just a mouth-breathing cunt.
Does it really matter? Sure, they have similar elements but they haven't copied much off each other, really. I happen to like both bands - NO makes better dance music, the Cure is much stronger live - and see similarities but they aren't carbon-copies of each other. Now, if it were the Killers in place of the Cure, however, this argument would be different.
This blue-eyed boy that wants to be wrote: Does it really matter? Sure, they have similar elements but they haven't copied much off each other, really. I happen to like both bands - NO makes better dance music, the Cure is much stronger live - and see similarities but they aren't carbon-copies of each other. Now, if it were the Killers in place of the Cure, however, this argument would be different.
You think The Cure is better live? Why? I actually completely disagree - one of the reasons I'm not as into The Cure is because I think they are a boring live band, whereas I find New Order to be more exciting. Granted, I haven't actually SEEN New Order live, but the live shows I've heard and the videos I've seen definitely sway me that way.
So why do you think The Cure is better live?
-Ben
Similiar elements, oh i see Barney is a big nancy boy, who wear's lipstick and has a big girls hairstyle. I can see it now.
Wipe yer face clean, comb yer hair, stop eating the pies and shut up ROBERT
Complement of my early bright thought (as they always are)
Electricity was recorded in early 79. And that's for sure a loud bass, almost a lead bass. And they released through Factory. So Hooky's history might be true.
Conduct wrote: Are you referring specifically to Inbetween Days and Dreams Never End? I belive that Robert thought NO had ripped off the bassline from A Forest and used it on Sunrise, so he felt obliged to rip off Dreams Never End to create Inbetween Days. Correct?
I seem to remember in the mid eighties there was a bit of catty bitching going on between New Order and The Cure in interviews I read. To be honest I think it was journalists stirring it up. First someone told Robert Smith he'd ripped off "Dreams Never End" for "Inbetween Days" then he retorted that NO had ripped off "A Forest" for "This Time Of Night" (not "Sunrise"). Funny thing is they did it again for "Crystal". But the Forest chords are probably in a lot of songs if you've got the time to look. I'd say The Cure have pretty much developed in their own direction but they got heavily influenced by JD for ages after between "3 Imaginary Boys" and "17 Seconds" when they got Gallup as the new bass player.
I think that it would be interesting to ask Richard X's opinion for tis question! take care all!!!
I always thought Age Of Consent sounded Cure-ish then again I don't listen to The Cure much.
HaciendaThat wrote:
Conduct wrote: Are you referring specifically to Inbetween Days and Dreams Never End? I belive that Robert thought NO had ripped off the bassline from A Forest and used it on Sunrise, so he felt obliged to rip off Dreams Never End to create Inbetween Days. Correct?
I seem to remember in the mid eighties there was a bit of catty bitching going on between New Order and The Cure in interviews I read. To be honest I think it was journalists stirring it up. First someone told Robert Smith he'd ripped off "Dreams Never End" for "Inbetween Days" then he retorted that NO had ripped off "A Forest" for "This Time Of Night" (not "Sunrise"). Funny thing is they did it again for "Crystal". But the Forest chords are probably in a lot of songs if you've got the time to look. I'd say The Cure have pretty much developed in their own direction but they got heavily influenced by JD for ages after between "3 Imaginary Boys" and "17 Seconds" when they got Gallup as the new bass player.
Ah! Sorry about that mistake! Thanks for clearing that up (about THIS TIME OF NIGHT)!
Does it really matter if somebody borrows a bass line? If Hooky or Gallup come up with something interesting, why should it matter if the other band recognizes that and uses it as INSPIRATION for their own take on what they would do with it?
Conduct wrote:
This blue-eyed boy that wants to be wrote: Does it really matter? Sure, they have similar elements but they haven't copied much off each other, really. I happen to like both bands - NO makes better dance music, the Cure is much stronger live - and see similarities but they aren't carbon-copies of each other. Now, if it were the Killers in place of the Cure, however, this argument would be different.
You think The Cure is better live? Why? I actually completely disagree - one of the reasons I'm not as into The Cure is because I think they are a boring live band, whereas I find New Order to be more exciting. Granted, I haven't actually SEEN New Order live, but the live shows I've heard and the videos I've seen definitely sway me that way.
So why do you think The Cure is better live?
-Ben
I personally like a band that plays together live and is somewhat in tune. New Order can be good live but they can also be dreadful. I've seen the Cure live twice, never NO, but I've heard live clips of NO and they're very inconsistant. Plus, many of the Cure's songs sound better live, usually bringing out a part that is obscured by production. For example, the whole last album sounds better live and "Homesick" off Disintegration has a more prominent keyboard solo line live.
You forgot that The Cure rock a lot harder live. Hard to rock hard to preprogrammed synth parts and drum machines. Almost no one (except maybe Steve) in New Order has the technical abilities that most people in The Cure have. Poofy hair aside, The Cure is simply much more of a ROCK band in my mind than New Order...and those who say otherwise are just in denial.
The song that always got me was 'The Walk' - released shortly after Blue Monday, it sounds like a DIRECT rip-off to me. There's loads more similarities between their sounds BUT that's the one where the Cure directly changed everything to sound like NewOrder.
Still, I dont care - I like some Cure songs a lot - & everybody deserves to make a living, right?
The bassline on 'A Forest' and 'This Time Of Night' are identical, although I think the key is different ('A Forest' maybe in a minor key). They undoubtedly influenced each other but I'd say that the Order are the more creative.
I can't imagine Fat Bob and his mates writing songs like Ruined In A Day or Mr. Disco for a kick-off!
Almost no one (except maybe Steve) in New Order has the technical abilities that most people in The Cure have.
I beg to differ here. Bernard has a long track record of working with technology and certainly knew his onions as far back as Closer as he built one of the synths used on it from a kit. Likewise the infamous 'Mickey Mouse' sequencer used on some of the early Order stuff that got superceded by the Prophet 5/Polysequencer setup they used right up to and including Low Life.
He also did a fair bit of the drum and synth programming during Electronic's lifetime and Hooky was also involved with doing similar work in both Revenge and Monaco. I think they're all-rounders by now.
I haven't seen New order live, so I'll refrain from saying which band is better live. However, I've seen The Cure 3 times, and two of those shows are in my top three shows of all time. The last time I saw them was on the Bloodflowers tour, and they had to contend with playing most of Bloodflowers, plus the absence of Porl, so they weren't at their best.
Nevertheless, The Cure are one of the best, perhaps even the best, live bands, period. People here can hate Robert Smith all they want, but it's obvious from the effort they make in their live shows, in the regular release of material, etc., that The Cure really love their fans. From what I've read on NOOL, that isn't always apparent with New Order.
But, having said all that, I should also take this opportunity to thank New Order for heeding their fans' call for a proper tour this time around. They deserve the thanks of everyone on NOOL for listening and following through like that.
Chemical wrote:
Almost no one (except maybe Steve) in New Order has the technical abilities that most people in The Cure have.
I beg to differ here. Bernard has a long track record of working with technology and certainly knew his onions as far back as Closer as he built one of the synths used on it from a kit.
No, he was referring to the band members' [lack of] ability to actually sing the right tune and play the right notes, not whether Barney could build a 'Speak and Spell' Airfix kit. It's got to be said, the Cure do sound a wholelot more polished live. New order, on the other hand, always sound like they could do with a bit more practice. I know it's not the easiest thing in the world to sing and play an instrument at the same time, but has Bernard ever managed to play Temptation (the 'up, down, turn around' bit) live yet without flunking a chord or two on his guitar!
But then, who wants to listen to a studio CD playing over the PA when they go to see their fav band live? Oh...hang on a minute, don't New Order do that too? :\ohwell:
Neil
