Would Bernard have become a Guitar Legend had Ian not passed away?

I often wonder how Barneys guitar playing would have turned out had he not taken over the singing. With Joy Division he created some wonderful, unique, original and haunting parts - songs such as Disorder, Transmission, Ceremony, New Dawn Fades, The Candidate, Novelty - he really did break barriers and go where no one else had been as far as sounds and atmospheres were concerned. I know technically he was not up to blues and jazz standards but I have always thought his Joy Division guitar work was far, far more powerful and inspiring than the guitar parts he has done with New Order. What does the forum think?

That is a question I always asked myself... I don't think Barney's guitar-work today is that great as it used to be... In an interview he said that they never really practiced to get better on their instruments (can we believe that?). I think because of their known laziness he wouldn't have been a real legend. Just the "guitar guy" from JD, playing for singing legend Ian Curtis.

loved the guitar sound on Transmission - a bit rough around the edges, but brilliant

guitar "Legends" Usually get that way by doing a lot of long and flashy Guitar Solos, so i dont thing the Barnster would have ever been one.

Bernard was a very under-rated guitarist in Joy Division. Unfortunately his continued inability to play and sing at the same time has meant that he has downgraded the part his guitar work plays in New Order material. All his guitar parts have been simple, with maybe only Novelty requiring anything more than the ability to play barre chords on both major and minor scales, but it was more the way the guitar was used in the song by Joy Division that made it more effective, not so much the technical quality of the playing. Simple but very very effective as JD, simpler still and not always as effective as NO.

No!!

Isn't the case that he actually only plays in the key of C?

Bere wrote: Just the "guitar guy" from JD, playing for singing legend Ian Curtis.

I imagine that you said that sarcastically?

Curtis wrote some heavy lyrics, and his genuinely emotional, pleading voice, haunting, is unique.

But 'singing legend'?

I personally love his style, and seriously respect his vocals. But most folks cringe when they hear him (or Mark E Smith, or Shawn Ryder for that matter)... he would not have become a legend! Very limited appeal. And limited range.

That, yes, we at NOOL love more than anything...

Tarbox23 wrote:

Bere wrote: Just the "guitar guy" from JD, playing for singing legend Ian Curtis.

I imagine that you said that sarcastically?

Curtis wrote some heavy lyrics, and his genuinely emotional, pleading voice, haunting, is unique.

But 'singing legend'?

I personally love his style, and seriously respect his vocals. But most folks cringe when they hear him (or Mark E Smith, or Shawn Ryder for that matter)... he would not have become a legend! Very limited appeal. And limited range.

That, yes, we at NOOL love more than anything...

My second name is "sarcasm"... ;)

It IS sad that Sumner does not write the classic postpunk guitar parts, shards of busted angular chords, that he wrote from 1978-1982...

Hook and Morris continue to excel at their crafts...

I can agree that it is harder to write as much now that he sings. BUT, you would think he could still come up with SOME new envelope pushing guitar work...

I personally like Sumner's disco guitar work, and some of his recent Marr-ish guitar, but I do miss the JD fractured tensions.....

I guess he is happier these days and no longer is guided by the darker muses....

wouldn't Bernard have to LEARN how to play the guitar first?

i always thought that was one thing that made JD/ NO unique was the post punk/anti-rock attitude, simple and straightforward as being more effective over complex bullshit (Steve Albini certainly embraced this style)certainly the oppossite of "guitar god" territory. most of the JD guitar are pretty much crude Stooges' rift knockoffs. in the hardest JD song, "The Sound of Music", the guitar was suppossedly written by Hooky. and even thou JD was getting better and better, Bernard was certainly getting more interested in the German electronic scene... if JD had continued and became mainstream stars, would Bernard have been "trapped" as the guitarist, stuck in the same style? what would ahve happened then?

If you pay attention during Taras, Bernard is clearly the group's leader even that early in their career, giving signals to Gillian, Steve, even Hooky here and there. The funny thing is, he freezes during some of his crucial parts, whether it's singing or playing guitar.

His guitar work in JD is top on the records, and sometimes excitingly aggressive live. I read somewhere that the group were displeased with Hannett's mix of Unknown Pleasures, as the guitar was mixed down. It's the kind of record that really sounds different from one set of speakers to another. In some ways the Peel Sessions are a better presentation of JD in 1979.

Not practicing is most detrimental to live work. Bernard often just bangs away on one or two chords that cover Hooky's scales. But in 511, he still shows he's a rocker on 'Transmission' and a couple of others.

Finally, unless some one can prove me wrong, his guitar playing got better on Brotherhood and Technique, and I think there's a fair amount of his guitar on WFTSC. Different chord shapes, fewer bar chords, more intricate picking.

In conclusion, he's got his own varied style, and can still be pretty good on the guitar when he makes the effort.

I recall Johnny Marr saying something along the lines of Bernard being a really underrated guitarist. He found it frustrating because he said he could be really good if he wanted too, he just tended to be lazy. I think it was during the Twisted Tenderness sessions he forced him to strap the guitar back on.

I love his stuff when he is on. I love the solos in Angel Dust, State of the Nation and Sunrise. Not technically perfect, but you can feel the emotion.

For me, its not about technical ability - its about feeling. While Bernard (et al) may not be technically brilliant, his (/ their) feel for the right sound is what has always made JD & NO brilliant. So, in my eyes(to my ears?) he IS a guitar legend!

CuanaD wrote: For me, its not about technical ability - its about feeling. While Bernard (et al) may not be technically brilliant, his (/ their) feel for the right sound is what has always made JD & NO brilliant. So, in my eyes(to my ears?) he IS a guitar legend!

i agree totally, barney has the knack to place a little simple piece in the right spot and makes it sound like it was meant to be there. but you will not find an article on barney in guitar world magazine or anything like that, maybe if he starts setting his guitar on fire during the set or something.

he has to be lazy letting phil take as much as a lead role as he does on WFTSC. theres a serious lack of quality control going on.

I was not aware that he is a Guitar legend

I forgot to mention the opening bars of Dead Souls -be it guitarist / engineer / producer who suggested that sound and simple style was well on top of their game. Its funny how they never sounded as good or as on the edge with New Order...

FC Can Can Man wrote: I recall Johnny Marr saying something along the lines of Bernard being a really underrated guitarist. He found it frustrating because he said he could be really good if he wanted too, he just tended to be lazy. I think it was during the Twisted Tenderness sessions he forced him to strap the guitar back on.

I love his stuff when he is on. I love the solos in Angel Dust, State of the Nation and Sunrise. Not technically perfect, but you can feel the emotion.

I read the same thing. The funny thing is, Marr is a guitar god without getting into all that guitar wanking - but when he joined Electronic I think he put alot of that guitar genius in the background while he was fooling with sampling and whatnot, which is a shame. Barney had the same fate - amazing in his first band, then the Roland ate his soul.

Its playing and singing at the same time thats difficult for him is'nt it (I'm not going to get banned for saying that am I )im paranoid now

I've been saying this for ages gentlemen. Barney is one of the most talented musicians ever made.

His guitar playing on Love Viginatles is fucking RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!

i don't know why there's so much against Barney's voice. I think you don't need to have a great range, or power in your voice. The tone and key is at least for me, more important than everything else. I love for example Sarah Cracknell's voice on Saint Etienne.

Same thing happen with your guitar skills. If what if you can play a solo, or if you are a virtuoso!, you can be a regular (technicaly) player, but play something unique, and that be great too.

CuanaD wrote: For me, its not about technical ability - its about feeling. While Bernard (et al) may not be technically brilliant, his (/ their) feel for the right sound is what has always made JD & NO brilliant.

Exactly! I agree that being able to play with feeling's more important than being good technically. Same goes for Barney's voice: he may not be the best in the world technically but he can always put across the emotion that he wants to and that's why I always enjoy hearing him sing.

Try to imagine Eric Clapton or Mark Knopfler playing guitar for N.O...

Is that what their sound needs?

remember kids- in the beginning, punk rock was not about knowing your instruments. Emotions involved in music what makes it artistic. Clapton is a brilliant guitartist put he bores me to death.

Same with a lot of Guitar 'legends' Look at all the hair metal bands of the 1980's.

Most definately. He was already pretty good and getting better. I always said that if Ian Curtis hadn't died he would have been very good. Don't know about great but people would have taken notice. He had other things to worry about once Ian died and so we'll never know what could have been. I show my brother who play guitar pretty damn good live New Order videos of Bernard playing and you can tell the more time passes the less he has, though he still has some licks. Don't take me wrong I love the guy and what he has done in New Order, but his guitar playing is breaking ground the way Hook's bass has. Anyway I show my brother the New Order videos and he knows what he sees then I show him some live Joy Division footage and point out the difference. He can see it like we all can. Great question, finally one that has some substance.

Guitar should be like meat in Chinese food, something to add flavor not the main course. I love to watch PFD to see Barney on his knees hitting the high notes on AISWIW, or waiting for his guitar to break in after the lyrics on TPK. JD/NO were never about who plays what, who has a solo, what does their hair look like or who they even are. It is about the music, not individuals.*

Hooky's bass is so goddamn important

Barney has a great scratchy guitar style, and weaves his sound around,most of the time, Hookys more dominant Bass.The effect is magic.Together the are collective genius for real.New order is well known and unique,for the big horny,beautiful ubelievabe power bass the guitar work gets underrated a little sometimes

Must be frustrating when the bass player plays superior to oneself...

Would Bernard have become a Guitar Legend had Ian not passed away?

absolutely