Mesh

Is it true that Mesh is only available on CD on the Factus 8 import? (The track credited as Mesh on Substance is, in fact, Cries & Whispers). Any idea how to get hold of Factus 8 on CD? Thanks

You can still pick up the FBN 8 cd single, the one made in Austria, quite easily on ebay. Mesh runs at 3:25 while Cries and Whispers is only 3 mins long..

Steve Lea wrote: You can still pick up the FBN 8 cd single, the one made in Austria, quite easily on ebay. Mesh runs at 3:25 while Cries and Whispers is only 3 mins long..

Can you? Seems to go for quite a bit when I've been watching them! :)

It's also on the (equally rare) '1981-82' Canadian CD EP (Polygram; 830 408-2)

But, yeah, "Mesh" is only available on those 2 CD's...

Nick King wrote:

Steve Lea wrote: You can still pick up the FBN 8 cd single, the one made in Austria, quite easily on ebay. Mesh runs at 3:25 while Cries and Whispers is only 3 mins long..

Can you? Seems to go for quite a bit when I've been watching them! :)

It's also on the (equally rare) '1981-82' Canadian CD EP (Polygram; 830 408-2) - one on ebay now here

But, yeah, "Mesh" is only available on those 2 CD's...

Well there's easily and then there's cheaply I guess! Sore point right now....

Steve Lea wrote: You can still pick up the FBN 8 cd single, the one made in Austria, quite easily on ebay. Mesh runs at 3:25 while Cries and Whispers is only 3 mins long..

i get Cries and Whispers running at 3:25, with Mesh at 3 minutes. and that Canadian EP on ebay, the seller says it is Cries and Whispers on the disk.

im very confused

Nick King wrote:

Steve Lea wrote: You can still pick up the FBN 8 cd single, the one made in Austria, quite easily on ebay. Mesh runs at 3:25 while Cries and Whispers is only 3 mins long..

Can you? Seems to go for quite a bit when I've been watching them! :)

It's also on the (equally rare) '1981-82' Canadian CD EP (Polygram; 830 408-2) - one on ebay now here

But, yeah, "Mesh" is only available on those 2 CD's...

The song we all (now) know as Mesh is only on the EGG CD single - the 'Mesh' on 1981-1982 is actually 'Cries And Whispers' (i.e. what is also mistakenly called 'Mesh' on 'Substance').

Andy

Mr Discography wrote:

Nick King wrote:

Steve Lea wrote: You can still pick up the FBN 8 cd single, the one made in Austria, quite easily on ebay. Mesh runs at 3:25 while Cries and Whispers is only 3 mins long..

Can you? Seems to go for quite a bit when I've been watching them! :)

It's also on the (equally rare) '1981-82' Canadian CD EP (Polygram; 830 408-2)

But, yeah, "Mesh" is only available on those 2 CD's...

The song we all (now) know as Mesh is only on the EGG CD single - the 'Mesh' on 1981-1982 is actually 'Cries And Whispers' (i.e. what is also mistakenly called 'Mesh' on 'Substance').

Andy

Not on my copy of the "1981-1982" CD single - it's definitely "Mesh", which is a completely different song to the one on "Substance".

Mesh lyrics:

"Hope and desire The antique sea Hopes and fears are All we ever see We made a contract In a field of snow"

Cries & Whispers lyrics:

"Below the surface this day I need it light Inside dimension lies another sacrifice Once out of reach, we never speak, we never compromise As they turned to gold the edges froze and seemed to turn to ice"

"Mesh" is on the "Everything's Gone Green" CD single and the Canadian CD single of "1981-1982".

"Cries And Whispers" is on CD2 of "Substance", CD2 of "Retro", and also on the "Everything's Gone Green" CD single.

same as NK. Mesh 3:25 Retro . London Records ltd. 09-09-2002. edit:liner notes from Retro given by Stephen Morris. Cries and Whispers is a great revelation because everybody thinks it's called Mesh. But it isn't. It was mislabelled in 1987 and nobody noticed.

Anyone know why these CD's were released? I have both, EGG I bought from a collector and 1981-1982 I got off eBay, but I simply can't imagine going into a music store around the time they were released and seeing these next to what was probably the latest New Edition CD single or something.

Seeing how only New Order fanatics would be the one's buying these and none of the songs were on radio during the time they were pressed to disc, it makes you wonder why these were even made.

Nevertheless, I'm still envious of Depeche Mode fans with their singles box sets, which were not only released once, but TWICE. Meanwhile, we're stuck with Retro and a million CD-R mixes of songs ripped from vinyl.

If only New Order got signed to Mute. We'd probably be seeing reissued albums complete with bonus tracks by now.

The C&W/Mesh debate continues - will it ever end.

The snow one is Mesh

Nick King wrote:

Steve Lea wrote: You can still pick up the FBN 8 cd single, the one made in Austria, quite easily on ebay.

It's also on the (equally rare) '1981-82' Canadian CD EP (Polygram; 830 408-2)

But, yeah, "Mesh" is only available on those 2 CD's...

Thanks everyone. I presume the Canadian EP CD has the same track listing as the vinyl Factus 8 (1981-82) EP? What is on the FBN 8 single?!

Cries & Whispers is the superior track of the two IMHO, tho I'd like Mesh on CD as my vinyl copy of Factus 8 is getting a bit battered these days!

Incidentally, I might be wrong, but I think the track was labelled correctly on the audio cassette version of Substance.

(I know I'm confirming my reputation as one of the "po-faced librarians" here, but I was hoping Dave Thompson's 'Armchair Guide to New Order' might help me out here, but it seems to be lacking in that kind of detail. It doesn't fully explain the difference between the two 12" versions of Ceremony either!)

Kevo

Re-Member wrote: Anyone know why these CD's were released? I have both, EGG I bought from a collector and 1981-1982 I got off eBay, but I simply can't imagine going into a music store around the time they were released and seeing these next to what was probably the latest New Edition CD single or something.

Seeing how only New Order fanatics would be the one's buying these and none of the songs were on radio during the time they were pressed to disc, it makes you wonder why these were even made.

Good question - I did actually buy both of these at the time, but can't for the life of me remember why they were released?

Re-Member wrote: Nevertheless, I'm still envious of Depeche Mode fans with their singles box sets, which were not only released once, but TWICE. Meanwhile, we're stuck with Retro and a million CD-R mixes of songs ripped from vinyl.

If only New Order got signed to Mute. We'd probably be seeing reissued albums complete with bonus tracks by now.

There is still time - I would bet quite a bit of money that Warners do exactly that in the next year or so - another way of making more money out of back catalogue items!

Safesurfer wrote:

(I know I'm confirming my reputation as one of the "po-faced librarians" here, but I was hoping Dave Thompson's 'Armchair Guide to New Order' might help me out here, but it seems to be lacking in that kind of detail. It doesn't fully explain the difference between the two 12" versions of Ceremony either!)

Kevo

But does joining the Viking hoards promote you from po-faced librarian to "cunt"!? :D Welcome, by the way...

Ceremony - not sure what your confusion is, but basically the version on "Singles" is the 'original' (recorded as a 3 piece) and the one on Substance is the 're-recorded' version (they went back into the studio and did it again when Gillian Gilbert joined).

If it's the 12" sleeve that's bothering you, then in general (but not always!) the green sleeve is the original version and the cream / blue sleeve is the re-recorded one.

Old Blue wrote:

Safesurfer wrote:

(I know I'm confirming my reputation as one of the "po-faced librarians" here, but I was hoping Dave Thompson's 'Armchair Guide to New Order' might help me out here, but it seems to be lacking in that kind of detail. It doesn't fully explain the difference between the two 12" versions of Ceremony either!)

Kevo

But does joining the Viking hoards promote you from po-faced librarian to "cunt"!? :D Welcome, by the way...

Ceremony - not sure what your confusion is, but basically the version on "Singles" is the 'original' (recorded as a 3 piece) and the one on Substance is the 're-recorded' version (they went back into the studio and did it again when Gillian Gilbert joined).

If it's the 12" sleeve that's bothering you, then in general (but not always!) the green sleeve is the original version and the cream / blue sleeve is the re-recorded one.

Thanks for the welcome. Both Mr Jarvis and Johnny Giles have presented me with Vikings badges - tho I'm not sure I deserve them (would give you all BSP badges in return but we've only got crappy tin ones - and we're put of stock of 'Third Battalion' ones completely. Oh well)

Yes, I knew that about Ceremony. I have the original version in the cream/blue sleeve! Apparently the reason for that is they still had some of the old sleeves left over when they re-recorded it. There's a web page that explains it all in fantastic detail somewhere....

Is the version on Retro the re-recorded one? If so, Singles must be the only place the original (and I think, better) version appears on CD.

Another question for you all...

Safesurfer wrote: Is the version on Retro the re-recorded one? If so, Singles must be the only place the original (and I think, better) version appears on CD.

Another question for you all...

Yup, on both accounts - the only place to obtain the original version on CD is via Singles. :)

Safesurfer wrote:

I have the original version in the cream/blue sleeve.

Me too. And a green one with the re-recorded version. Had me confused for years as to which was which.

Nick King wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

Nick King wrote:

Steve Lea wrote: You can still pick up the FBN 8 cd single, the one made in Austria, quite easily on ebay. Mesh runs at 3:25 while Cries and Whispers is only 3 mins long..

Can you? Seems to go for quite a bit when I've been watching them! :)

It's also on the (equally rare) '1981-82' Canadian CD EP (Polygram; 830 408-2)

But, yeah, "Mesh" is only available on those 2 CD's...

The song we all (now) know as Mesh is only on the EGG CD single - the 'Mesh' on 1981-1982 is actually 'Cries And Whispers' (i.e. what is also mistakenly called 'Mesh' on 'Substance').

Andy

Not on my copy of the "1981-1982" CD single - it's definitely "Mesh", which is a completely different song to the one on "Substance".

Mesh lyrics:

"Hope and desire The antique sea Hopes and fears are All we ever see We made a contract In a field of snow"

Cries & Whispers lyrics:

"Below the surface this day I need it light Inside dimension lies another sacrifice Once out of reach, we never speak, we never compromise As they turned to gold the edges froze and seemed to turn to ice"

"Mesh" is on the "Everything's Gone Green" CD single and the Canadian CD single of "1981-1982".

"Cries And Whispers" is on CD2 of "Substance", CD2 of "Retro", and also on the "Everything's Gone Green" CD single.

Oh yeah, my mistake... Just checked the 1981-82 CD EP, and Mesh it is (the "real" Mesh, that is)... Funny, I always thought is was 'Cries and Whispers' on there, as it was (correctly) labelled 'Mesh' on this release!

Nightmare!

Andy

The cassett of Substance had both Mesh and Cries & Whispers, but with the titles the wrong way around!

Andy

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/6337/dreamsneverend15qf.jpg" class="max-w-full" alt="" loading="lazy" /> added in as messed up the post.

Old Blue wrote:

Safesurfer wrote: have the original version in the cream/blue sleeve.

And a green one with the re-recorded version.

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/782/ep13by.jpg" class="max-w-full" alt="" loading="lazy" />

if not known, gems also at www.enkiri.com-Joy Division-Eternal.

-to host a picture w/out the (X)box

Mr Discography wrote:

Nick King wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

Nick King wrote:

Steve Lea wrote: You can still pick up the FBN 8 cd single, the one made in Austria, quite easily on ebay. Mesh runs at 3:25 while Cries and Whispers is only 3 mins long..

Can you? Seems to go for quite a bit when I've been watching them! :)

It's also on the (equally rare) '1981-82' Canadian CD EP (Polygram; 830 408-2)

But, yeah, "Mesh" is only available on those 2 CD's...

The song we all (now) know as Mesh is only on the EGG CD single - the 'Mesh' on 1981-1982 is actually 'Cries And Whispers' (i.e. what is also mistakenly called 'Mesh' on 'Substance').

Andy

Not on my copy of the "1981-1982" CD single - it's definitely "Mesh", which is a completely different song to the one on "Substance".

Mesh lyrics:

"Hope and desire The antique sea Hopes and fears are All we ever see We made a contract In a field of snow"

Cries & Whispers lyrics:

"Below the surface this day I need it light Inside dimension lies another sacrifice Once out of reach, we never speak, we never compromise As they turned to gold the edges froze and seemed to turn to ice"

"Mesh" is on the "Everything's Gone Green" CD single and the Canadian CD single of "1981-1982".

"Cries And Whispers" is on CD2 of "Substance", CD2 of "Retro", and also on the "Everything's Gone Green" CD single.

Oh yeah, my mistake... Just checked the 1981-82 CD EP, and Mesh it is (the "real" Mesh, that is)... Funny, I always thought is was 'Cries and Whispers' on there, as it was (correctly) labelled 'Mesh' on this release!

Nightmare!

Andy

Don't worry - it's all a "mesh"!

(couldn't resist that one)! :D

Jesus! I have the EGG and 81-82 CD Singles since 1992, right after I became a fan. I had it backwards this whole time, too.

You learn something new every day, I guess.

Glad I got those CD Singles all those years ago instead of spending it on school lunches like I was supposed to!!!

So did anyone who bought these during the time they were released get them from a store or was it something you just simply had to order directly from a catalog? Seeing how the internet wasn't too big at the time, I can't imagine word of these getting out. And someone owning a music shop thinking to himself "Hmmm, I think we need to order some obscure New Order CD singles, those will sell like hot cakes" doesn't seem likely.

The origins of these releases are starting to drive me insane now, haha.

I *think* I bought them from some kind of mail-order shop (maybe Adrians Records or Key Mail Order - whichever one was advertised in the NME at the time)?

Of course, I could be completely wrong and spotted them in an HMV/Virgin shop...

Anyone have any ideas on why these where released?

Alistair wrote:

Nick King wrote: Don't worry - it's all a "mesh"!

You've gone a bit Sean Connery there Nick!

Nah, you'd be better at imitating Sean Connery (especially the accent)!

As far as the origin of a release like '1981-1982 EP' - I have the original Canadian cassette (where 'Mesh' is on the sleeve, but 'Cries & Whispers is on the tape).

My guess is that by the late-80s when the US & Canada were starting to release CD Singles, I guess they just saw fit to re-release this on CD and sell it as an EP, since it, technically, is not a single, even though the chart rules in the UK at the time, allowed EPs to chart. I'm not sure if that was the case in Canada in 1989.

I don't think there's a big mystery to it.

I bought mine in 1992 at (now-defunct) Peaches Music in Orlando, FL during a trip to Disney World. It was $10, I was so happy.

____________________________________________________

I hate to bring this up again but I just got home and listened to the EGG CD Single.

If I am not mistaken, not ONLY is 'Cries & Whispers' mistakenly labelled 'Mesh' on Disc Two of 'Substance' but on the EGG CD Single, tracks 2 and 3 are reversed.

Is that correct? It's gotta be why I was confused all these years.

Mr Discography wrote: The cassett of Substance had both Mesh and Cries & Whispers, but with the titles the wrong way around!

Andy

wow ive just discovered my dad's old substance cassette (im only a nipper) and the cassette has both those songs and Dubvulture, Shellcockand Bizzare Dub Triangle!! wow how come the CD never had those songs. luckily my new car has a tape player :)

MTO wrote: I hate to bring this up again but I just got home and listened to the EGG CD Single.

If I am not mistaken, not ONLY is 'Cries & Whispers' mistakenly labelled 'Mesh' on Disc Two of 'Substance' but on the EGG CD Single, tracks 2 and 3 are reversed.

Is that correct? It's gotta be why I was confused all these years.

Correct!

See here for EGG CD single.

"1-01 New Order Everything's Gone Green 12" Version 5:30 1-02 New Order Cries & Whispers Original Version 3:25 Mislabeled as Mesh 1-03 New Order Mesh Original Version 3:00 Mislabeled as Cries and Whispers"

See here for 1981-1982 EP.

"1-01 New Order Temptation 12" Version 8:47 1-02 New Order Hurt 12" Version 8:13 1-03 New Order Everything's Gone Green 12" Version 5:30 1-04 New Order Procession 7" Version 4:27 1-05 New Order Mesh Original Version 3:00

Song #5 has been falsly reported as Cries & Whispers for years, but it is Mesh, Stephen Morris correct this mistake in the Retro booklet."

See here for Substance.

"2-01 New Order In A Lonely Place 12" Version 6:16 2-02 New Order Procession 7" Version 4:27 2-03 New Order Cries & Whispers Original Version 3:25 Mislabeled as "Mesh"
2-04 New Order Hurt 12" Version Edit 6:59 2-05 New Order Blue Monday The Beach 7:19 2-06 New Order Confusion Confused Instrumental 7:38 2-07 New Order Lonesome Tonight Original Version 5:11 2-08 New Order Murder Original Version 3:55
2-09 New Order Thieves Like Us Instrumental 6:57 2-10 New Order The Perfect Kiss Kiss of Death 7:02 2-11 New Order State of the Nation Shame of the Nation 7:54
2-12 New Order 1963 Original Version 5:35"

As I say, a complete "mesh"!

joe Gill wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: The cassett of Substance had both Mesh and Cries & Whispers, but with the titles the wrong way around!

Andy

wow ive just discovered my dad's old substance cassette (im only a nipper) and the cassette has both those songs and Dubvulture, Shellcockand Bizzare Dub Triangle!! wow how come the CD never had those songs. luckily my new car has a tape player :)

Simply because they couldn't fit on the 2xCD set, but they could fit on the cassette! :)

"Dubvulture" and "Shellcock" remain unreleased on CD - "Bizarre Dub Triangle" finally made it onto the US CD single (sometimes called "I Don't Care", for some very strange reason)!

Nick King wrote:

"Bizarre Dub Triangle" finally made it onto the US CD single (sometimes called "I Don't Care", for some very strange reason)!

Wasn't it because when Quest wanted to know what 4 tracks to put out on the US 12", someone from either the band or Factory said "remix, album version, State Of The Nation and something else, I don't care..."

Safesurfer wrote: Yes, I knew that about Ceremony. I have the original version in the cream/blue sleeve! Apparently the reason for that is they still had some of the old sleeves left over when they re-recorded it. There's a web page that explains it all in fantastic detail somewhere...

And here it is

In case anyone hasn't come across it before, this discography is superbly comprehensive. It points out, incidentally, that even on the Austrian FBN 8 CD single, Mesh and Cries and Whispers were labelled the wrong way round!

That is a very nice discography.

Gosh, I thought my New Order collection was pretty thorough, but there are quite a few things, I ought to look out for.

What would really be nice is if these guys updated it with the new releases since the last album. I need help in sorting out all these new CD-R's and promos.

well the EGG 12" and the compilation EP were vinyl only releases initially that were retrospectively put out on CD single/EP. I must admit that I was unaware that the CDs existed for a time as they came out well after the records.

Ok, now I got it. The Canadian cassette of 1981-1982 WAS right all along. I'm totally straight now, I got it. Thanks to the almighty Nick King for straightening me out.

____________________

One thing I was gonna say was that Polygram in 1989 was probably realizing that CD sales were up and that they should have more of their backcatalogue on CD and 1981-1982 EP was one of the releases they did on CD.

Hey Nick, accordin to that Discography page posted a few messages back, 'Shellcock' is indeed on CD.

Look under albums, then Reprise In-House CDR Pack, or something like that. It's on the second disc listed, I believe.

Damn the CD-r's, man.

MTO wrote: Hey Nick, accordin to that Discography page posted a few messages back, 'Shellcock' is indeed on CD.

Look under albums, then Reprise In-House CDR Pack, or something like that. It's on the second disc listed, I believe.

Damn the CD-r's, man.

Ah, yeah, the infamous "In-House" CDR's... :)

Essentially, made by Warner employees (and not from masters, apparently - some from vinyl) - very few have escaped outside of Warners... I believe that the story goes that these were compiled when a box set was mooted (i.e. to collate the tracks)...

I have one of them, "1995 Remixes" (which includes the Advent mixes of "Everything's Gone Green", Temptation 98, Salvation Soundtrack, both Pump Panel remixes of "Confusion", "World In Motion 96", and "Ruined In A Day (K-Klass 1993 Edit)") - so nothing really exclusive, there... There was another, similarly titled one called (confusingly enough), "1995 Remixes" which had a lot more, including the "1963 (Lionrock remixes)" - some of which only appeared on vinyl, and some mixes of "True Faith"...

And, yeah, the owner of the Niagara site is TLV (who hasn't posted on here for a while, if memory serves me correctly)? Come on, TLV, update that site! :p

Mesh is the good one. Cries & Whispers is the boring repetitive one.

Razed In A New Division Of Agony wrote: Mesh is the good one. Cries & Whispers is the boring repetitive one.

Ah, but they're both good, hence the confusion...

Snorri xxx

Razed In A New Division Of Agony wrote: Mesh is the good one. Cries & Whispers is the boring repetitive one.

Balderdash. How can anyone not love Barney's child-like delivery of the chorus in "Cries and Whisers" starting at around 2:05?

"One day it came to mind we even leave the rest behind Some day, I know, you get where you should go There's hope, you've heard there's life in another world Sometimes we'll find that truth is never kind One day it came to mind we even leave the rest behind Some day, I know, we even get where we used to go There's hope, you've heard there's life in another world"

He sings it so playfully too.

I see the Cerysmatic Fac site have got on our little 'put it right' debate about Mesh, sorry Cries & Whispers, no sorry Mesh ahh! Dont know i would say as some bloke has 'their rarest song' (Mesh that is)

Canadian CD 1981-1982 wasn't all that hard to find in the USA (sound quality is questionable thou) back in the 90s, a semi- common import

Re-Member wrote:

Razed In A New Division Of Agony wrote: Mesh is the good one. Cries & Whispers is the boring repetitive one.

Balderdash. How can anyone not love Barney's child-like delivery of the chorus in "Cries and Whisers" starting at around 2:05?

"One day it came to mind we even leave the rest behind Some day, I know, you get where you should go There's hope, you've heard there's life in another world Sometimes we'll find that truth is never kind One day it came to mind we even leave the rest behind Some day, I know, we even get where we used to go There's hope, you've heard there's life in another world"

He sings it so playfully too.

that song you quote is actually named "Mesh" and the other Mesh is actually called "Cries and Whispers"... that is what the thread is trying to say is the confusion...

pumped full of drugs wrote:

Re-Member wrote:

Razed In A New Division Of Agony wrote: Mesh is the good one. Cries & Whispers is the boring repetitive one.

Balderdash. How can anyone not love Barney's child-like delivery of the chorus in "Cries and Whisers" starting at around 2:05?

"One day it came to mind we even leave the rest behind Some day, I know, you get where you should go There's hope, you've heard there's life in another world Sometimes we'll find that truth is never kind One day it came to mind we even leave the rest behind Some day, I know, we even get where we used to go There's hope, you've heard there's life in another world"

He sings it so playfully too.

that song you quote is actually named "Mesh" and the other Mesh is actually called "Cries and Whispers"... that is what the thread is trying to say is the confusion...

Sure about that? Cries and Whispers lyrics.

And I'm looking at my copy of Retro right now; Steve's saying I'm right.

Re-Member wrote:

pumped full of drugs wrote:

Re-Member wrote:

Razed In A New Division Of Agony wrote: Mesh is the good one. Cries & Whispers is the boring repetitive one.

Balderdash. How can anyone not love Barney's child-like delivery of the chorus in "Cries and Whisers" starting at around 2:05?

"One day it came to mind we even leave the rest behind Some day, I know, you get where you should go There's hope, you've heard there's life in another world Sometimes we'll find that truth is never kind One day it came to mind we even leave the rest behind Some day, I know, we even get where we used to go There's hope, you've heard there's life in another world"

He sings it so playfully too.

that song you quote is actually named "Mesh" and the other Mesh is actually called "Cries and Whispers"... that is what the thread is trying to say is the confusion...

Sure about that? Cries and Whispers lyrics.

And I'm looking at my copy of Retro right now; Steve's saying I'm right.

Right - that's it - let's stop referring to these two by name and just quote the lyrics or something - from now on it's "Hope and Desire" and "Below The Surface" - agreed?

Snorri xxx

I found the 1981-82 EP cd in 1990 approx, purely by luck in HMV in edinburgh the branch at St James centre... pounced on it immediately. same with video 586 - that was later, 1997 approx i think. In the olden days, mid 80s - 90s there was a lot more cd singles not just the latest ones on the shelves. I dont have the EGG cd but I have a 12" single with EGG, Mesh and Cries & Whispers, never played for years. I also came across the Republic remixes in virgin by pure chance. Snapped em up of course... I thought are there no NO fans in edinburgh? It was only a day trip.