Most blatant New Order rip off?

My two candidates are Mike and the Mechanics' Looking Back Over My Shoulder (drums and guitar pace Everyone Everywhere - especially the Republic tour live version!) and Lightning Seeds' Pure (guitar pace Love Vigilantes!).

Anything by RE-ORDER

Reilly's low-slung bass!!!

Depeche Modes' Enjoy the Silence & The Beloveds' If Only,2 for starters

Enjoy the silence sounds like NO? I think not.

shot bru wrote: Enjoy the silence sounds like NO? I think not.

Sounded completely like NO at the time. I remember the Chart Show airing it when it was released and making the odd sarcastic comment about Hooky rumoured to be guest playing bass on it. Its not a rip off a song though, just how NO sounded. Kon Kan did it too, about the same time with 'I Beg your Pardon'.

Blue Monday rip offs are numerous, but here goes a short list:

Kylie - Cant get you out of my head The Bravery - Honest Mistake The Cure - The Walk Divine - (cant remember the track name) Fischerspooner - Emerge

The Cure are kinda excused cos they traded rip offs in the Eighties. The scratchy acoustic guitar sound on 'In Between Days' was according to Fat Bob lifted from EGG, and in return, 'All the Way' is a direct descendant of 'Just Like Heaven'.

I think this song has come up again and again whenever a thread talking about alleged rip-offs of New Order comes up, but Peter Schilling's "A Different Story" would be my pick.

I can see the similarity in sound between the guitar part in ETS and Hooky's bass sound, but to me it takes more than that to say it's a rip-off - everything from the song structure, the melody, the vocals etc are different enough so that no-one would mistake it for NO, esp at the time it was released (ie post Technique). Anyway, DM will never have any credibility in the UK as they'll never be forgiven for their earlier TOTP appearances, dodgy fashions and woeful early videos.

shot bru wrote: I can see the similarity in sound between the guitar part in ETS and Hooky's bass sound, but to me it takes more than that to say it's a rip-off - everything from the song structure, the melody, the vocals etc are different enough so that no-one would mistake it for NO, esp at the time it was released (ie post Technique).

No its unmistakeable NO, in any NOOLers book, full stop period. Sounds more like NO than DM. If you did a poll of NOOLers what their favourite DM song it could well be Enjoy the Silence purely because it sounds like NO.

shot bru wrote:

Anyway, DM will never have any credibility in the UK as they'll never be forgiven for their earlier TOTP appearances, dodgy fashions and woeful early videos.

None of the above. I think it was the poor music and the existence of a better band from Manchester. But thats another debate entirely, for the DM Forum to sweat feverishly over whilst looking at pics of a tattoo-clad sweaty Dave Gahan.

Monaco& the other 2

"No its unmistakeable NO, in any NOOLers book, full stop period. Sounds more like NO than DM."

"None of the above. I think it was the poor music and the existence of a better band from Manchester."

Debating with an armoury of subjective absolutes disguised as common wisdom lessens the impact of one's intended point. Here ends today's lesson.

Mike and the Mechanics???

I must not have heard that song.

shot bru wrote: Enjoy the silence sounds like NO? I think not.

You wot???

I think that maybe because the vocal line of it is so strong that it easily could take you away from sounding like N.O.,but as the songs' 'hook' is based around the guitar line,which is blatant Hooky rip-off,it does by a mile.Thought so at the time,as did a huge amount of people,& I still do now,as do a huge amount of people.But...each to their own:\ohwell:

None that I can really think of except .....

I thought RHCP's "Dani California" or whatever its called is a rip off of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers' "Last Dance with Mary Jane" song... I'm not good with song titles anymore....

mark kelly wrote:

shot bru wrote: Enjoy the silence sounds like NO? I think not.

You wot???

I think that maybe because the vocal line of it is so strong that it easily could take you away from sounding like N.O.,but as the songs' 'hook' is based around the guitar line,which is blatant Hooky rip-off,it does by a mile.Thought so at the time,as did a huge amount of people,& I still do now,as do a huge amount of people.But...each to their own:\ohwell:

Ive never made the connection and I think its DM's best song.

I always thought some of The Stooges guitar and bass sounded suspiciously like Rock The Shack, Working Overtime or Joy Division.

Biggest NO ripoff ever was that John Denver shit, leaving on a jet plane indeed......

Tim wrote: Biggest NO ripoff ever was that John Denver shit, leaving on a jet plane indeed......

How ironic. Not sure it was a jet though.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

shot bru wrote: Enjoy the silence sounds like NO? I think not.

Sounded completely like NO at the time. I remember the Chart Show airing it when it was released and making the odd sarcastic comment about Hooky rumoured to be guest playing bass on it. Its not a rip off a song though, just how NO sounded. Kon Kan did it too, about the same time with 'I Beg your Pardon'.

Blue Monday rip offs are numerous, but here goes a short list:

Kylie - Cant get you out of my head The Bravery - Honest Mistake The Cure - The Walk Divine - (cant remember the track name) Fischerspooner - Emerge

The Cure are kinda excused cos they traded rip offs in the Eighties. The scratchy acoustic guitar sound on 'In Between Days' was according to Fat Bob lifted from EGG, and in return, 'All the Way' is a direct descendant of 'Just Like Heaven'.

I agree that The Walk is pretty close, but the others....REALLY? All that I can see that they have in common is a busy sequencer-driven backing track.

NO Regret wrote:

mark kelly wrote:

shot bru wrote: Enjoy the silence sounds like NO? I think not.

You wot???

I think that maybe because the vocal line of it is so strong that it easily could take you away from sounding like N.O.,but as the songs' 'hook' is based around the guitar line,which is blatant Hooky rip-off,it does by a mile.Thought so at the time,as did a huge amount of people,& I still do now,as do a huge amount of people.But...each to their own:\ohwell:

Ive never made the connection and I think its DM's best song.

I always thought some of The Stooges guitar and bass sounded suspiciously like Rock The Shack, Working Overtime or Joy Division.

Like said,it's down to the individual listeners' ear,but def' agree about Rock the Shack/Working Overtime connection to The Stooges,& not a good one at that

P.S.The story re The Walk/Blue Monday,Inbetween Days,Just Like Heaven/All The Way is well documented.As much as I like The Cure,their conscious move towards J.D.'s sound & influence is obvious...3 Imaginary Boys to Seventeen Seconds? Ahem.....

But what's wrong with moving towards someone's sound, especially when it's a good sound?

The Cure move after 3IB was more towards a similar feel than directly copping JD's sound. Just....generally gloomier and less punkish. If you actually compare the individual elements of 17secs, not much of it actually sounds like JD - Barney's guitar sound is much darker and fuller for example (Gibson/Shergold vs Fender Jazzmaster!). The drumming is very simple and not as powerful as Steve's patterns, although the Cure did take another step towards that on Faith (slightly more complex patterns and more use of toms).

The Hollow-What you give is what you get(top tune tho )

Plus the obvious Cure ones..

Edit: Also the Jacques Le Cont remix of Mr Brightside..another stormer all the same

DC wrote: But what's wrong with moving towards someone's sound, especially when it's a good sound?

The Cure move after 3IB was more towards a similar feel than directly copping JD's sound. Just....generally gloomier and less punkish. If you actually compare the individual elements of 17secs, not much of it actually sounds like JD - Barney's guitar sound is much darker and fuller for example (Gibson/Shergold vs Fender Jazzmaster!). The drumming is very simple and not as powerful as Steve's patterns, although the Cure did take another step towards that on Faith (slightly more complex patterns and more use of toms).

I do agree that 17Secs doesn't resemble J.D. to a great degree,but The Cure definately made a conscious move away from the sound of 3IB because of a direct influence from J.D.,mainly thru' J.D.supporting them numorous times during '79.Like you said,a generally darker,sparser sound than before

so many blatant rip offs. two that spring to mind are orbital's "style" off the middle of nowhere album which sounds like a pastiche of PCL era NO and the beloved's "found" off the album happiness which is a sort of brotherhood/technique style indie ballad.

captain obvious wrote: so many blatant rip offs. two that spring to mind are orbital's "style" off the middle of nowhere album which sounds like a pastiche of PCL era NO and the beloved's "found" off the album happiness which is a sort of brotherhood/technique style indie ballad.

Can't hear that one at all. Its supposed to be a mish mash of Devil Gate Drive by Suzi Quatro, Oh L'Amour by Dollar, and Rolf Harris playing the stylophone.

mark kelly wrote:

DC wrote: But what's wrong with moving towards someone's sound, especially when it's a good sound?

The Cure move after 3IB was more towards a similar feel than directly copping JD's sound. Just....generally gloomier and less punkish. If you actually compare the individual elements of 17secs, not much of it actually sounds like JD - Barney's guitar sound is much darker and fuller for example (Gibson/Shergold vs Fender Jazzmaster!). The drumming is very simple and not as powerful as Steve's patterns, although the Cure did take another step towards that on Faith (slightly more complex patterns and more use of toms).

I do agree that 17Secs doesn't resemble J.D. to a great degree,but The Cure definately made a conscious move away from the sound of 3IB because of a direct influence from J.D.,mainly thru' J.D.supporting them numorous times during '79.Like you said,a generally darker,sparser sound than before

Robert Smith said at the time : "everything changed after we heard Joy Division".

The Secret Machines - The Road Leads where its Lead

At the start totally rips off a NO song, I cant remember which one it was though! So aye, pretty pointless post from myself!!

So, Mozza, tricky nick, eh?

Thats gone straight over my head!!

Aye but its Close Range the song is. Daylight robbery by the Secret Machines.

Here's a recent one to add to the list. I suspect Muse have been listening to Low-Life recently. "Map of the Problematique" sounds just like a speeded up "This Time of Night" with "World (Price of Love)" bits added on top.

It's great, but still rips off New Order.

I love the PetShopboys, and I am sure they are on good terms with NO, but at the end of Minimal (An awesome song, by the way...)...there is a baseline that is distinctly neworder and Peter Hook...it makes the song all the more cooler!!!

Re-Order and Digital :D

Burt Reynolds wrote:

shot bru wrote: I can see the similarity in sound between the guitar part in ETS and Hooky's bass sound, but to me it takes more than that to say it's a rip-off - everything from the song structure, the melody, the vocals etc are different enough so that no-one would mistake it for NO, esp at the time it was released (ie post Technique).

No its unmistakeable NO, in any NOOLers book, full stop period. Sounds more like NO than DM. If you did a poll of NOOLers what their favourite DM song it could well be Enjoy the Silence purely because it sounds like NO.

shot bru wrote:

Anyway, DM will never have any credibility in the UK as they'll never be forgiven for their earlier TOTP appearances, dodgy fashions and woeful early videos.

None of the above. I think it was the poor music and the existence of a better band from Manchester. But thats another debate entirely, for the DM Forum to sweat feverishly over whilst looking at pics of a tattoo-clad sweaty Dave Gahan.

Until I saw this post I didn't make the connection between Depeche Mode's Enjoy The Silence and New Order. IMO although the bass in ETS has a similar sound to Hooky I think its played (probably by Martin Gore) at a slightly higher pitch to what Hooky normally does and the song was originally intended to be a slower 'ballad' type song with Martin Gore rather than Dave Gahan doing the singing. When it got produced by Flood and became more of a dance/techno song. I don't think the intention was to rip-off New Order as ETS also has some House and Detroit Techno influences running through it. Agreed I like New Order more and think their New York/Hacienda/Ibiza/Technique era's had more influence on modern dance culture I also like Depeche and think ETS is one of their best songs. Interestingly Hooky's bass does feature on the Jacques Lu Cont (aka Stuart Price who produced Guilt Is A Useless Emotion) remix of A Pain That I'm Used Too with interesting results. Cheers!

enjoy the silence stands on its own. it doesn't sound like a ripoff.

Divine recorded the obvious BM rip-off 'Love Reaction', although 'The Walk' has more than a passing resemblance. It's that damned good early eighties octaving bass and hi-NRG sound folks!

No-one has mentioned Furniture's 'Brilliant Mind' which is probably the greatest song the Order didn't write, right down to the drums and twangy bass. It's ironic that John Denver sued the Order over 'Run' (he's postumously named as a co-writer on the Singles inlay) as the Order should've sued Furniture for copying every element of their sound and several of their songs for 'Brilliant Mind'!

I never really was reminded of New Order when "Enjoy the Silence" came out, nor did i really like the song either. Depeche Mode was working similar territory at the time, older techno mixed with newer house/acid influences while adding some some guitar and bass in a vague New Order style without New Order's rock band background. Violator's songs are actually much better produced than Technique from a mainstream standpoint, but I found it to be hollow and cynically shallow lacking New Order's unique personality. I always kinda thought "Everything Counts" was a Depeche Mode attempt at making a New Order 12" style epic.

in the 80s, The Cure were definitely peers of New Order, as well as The Fall... it is easy to find similar ideas even if the end results were usually different

NEW ORDER - 'True Faith ===> original

KON KAN - 'I Peg Your Pardon' ===> rip off (bad one !)

|cv|

Chemical wrote: Divine recorded the obvious BM rip-off 'Love Reaction', although 'The Walk' has more than a passing resemblance. It's that damned good early eighties octaving bass and hi-NRG sound folks!

No-one has mentioned Furniture's 'Brilliant Mind' which is probably the greatest song the Order didn't write, right down to the drums and twangy bass. It's ironic that John Denver sued the Order over 'Run' (he's postumously named as a co-writer on the Singles inlay) as the Order should've sued Furniture for copying every element of their sound and several of their songs for 'Brilliant Mind'!

Brillant Mind is a fantastic song and should have had much more success than the lower reaches of the Top 40 in 1987/88(?). I dont think it sounds like NO apart from that top E string riff thing. The B-side is great too. Forgotten its title but its got some amusing lyrics.

Ill tell you a riff off though. Rebellion by The Arcade Fire. Its got Hookys low bass part from Crystal and that sustained repetive piano note from the same song. Its as bad as that Secret Machines intro thats already been mentioned.

NO Regret wrote: Ill tell you a riff off though. Rebellion by The Arcade Fire. Its got Hookys low bass part from Crystal and that sustained repetive piano note from the same song. Its as bad as that Secret Machines intro thats already been mentioned.

It's a good song thou... nothing wrong with paying homage to your inspirations, you would lose thousands of classic songs if you used that criteria. New Order/ Joy Division have lifted things from the Stooges, Can, Velvet Underground, german electronic music so it goes...

Does anyone remember Boxcar? I only ever heard their 1st album and accompanying singles but they wanted to be New Order so bad.

Were their subsequent releases any good?

Andy wrote: Does anyone remember Boxcar? I only ever heard their 1st album and accompanying singles but they wanted to be New Order so bad.

Were their subsequent releases any good?

...down to being three lads and a lass! Their Freemason is so dead-on NO it's scary - even the vocals.

The remix album and subsequent albums aren't as good and sound very dated now. There was a change in the lineup and the songwriting moved toward that early 90s techno/house sound.

Another ripoff that springs to mind is The Different Story by Peter Schilling, which uses all the same sounds and chords as True Faith, just rearranged a bit.

i reckon 'a hundred words' by the beloved has nailed it when it comes to a classic early order sounding rip off. not a bad song though.

the killers, editors, wedding present

Thea Gilmore's 'Heartstring Blues' sounds rather like Love Vigilantes to me.

And I suspect Hitler's favourite composer Wagner of ripping off 'all day long'.

Andy wrote: Does anyone remember Boxcar? I only ever heard their 1st album and accompanying singles but they wanted to be New Order so bad.

Were their subsequent releases any good?

boxcar - freemason (you broke the promise) was so close to the new order sound, i thought it was actually them..

it turns out robert racic (who did the 'paradise' remix for them, did some of the mixes and worked them on singles/album), so thats why that sounded so similar..

they had a few other singles, insect, hit and run, and gas stop..but freemason was the biggest i think.. go back and listen to the bass/guitar tracks, it sounds like hooky...

i don't know how their other material sounded, but i read it was more techno/electronic..and pretty good if you liked that style.

later -1

Whatever I Do (Wherever I Go) - Hazell Dean.

If anyone else remembers this try telling me that she's not lifted Blue Monday lock stock and barrel.

Eric Wang wrote: enjoy the silence stands on its own. it doesn't sound like a ripoff.

Totally agree.

And though I am a HUGE DM fan I have to admit Suffer Well's bassline sounds way too much like New Order.

But I love it anyway, though every time I listen to it I imagine Peter playing the bass on that one.