Cool NO docu featuring some Vikings! and some music equip. questions

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9110241382207123839&q=new+order+documentary&hl=en

Enjoy!!!

Also, a question. At the end, when they're playing "Heart and Soul", who's playing the extra rhythm bass? Barn's playing the guitar, Hook's playing his usual bass and Gill's at the keys. Is that somehow actually coming from the synth? If so, what kinda synth is that anyway?

Though, earlier on they have Barn on the 2nd bass on Confusion. LOL Not sure what kind that one is. Its awesome tho!

Also, and off-topic here... when the band is playing "Sirens" live, do they have a backing track for the chorus part "I wont desert you.." etc? On like for example, the Jools Holland show, when they did it, there's just the one female backup singer, but its like also Barney singing over himself. LOL

Thats excellent.. top banana..

Nice to see Mr J making a TV appearance too

They use some vocal backing tracks for the songs with the 'big choruses'. Was watching a bit of Reading '98 last night, and it's definitely true Bernard had a backing track of his guitar on 'Regret'...his fingers don't move enough on the C and F chords to show he's doing the main riff. (However, I think he does play it live in 511.)

JV wrote: They use some vocal backing tracks for the songs with the 'big choruses'. Was watching a bit of Reading '98 last night, and it's definitely true Bernard had a backing track of his guitar on 'Regret'...his fingers don't move enough on the C and F chords to show he's doing the main riff. (However, I think he does play it live in 511.)

You sure maybe it wasn't an out of sync video part? Regret's a pretty easy song to play with the parts Barn plays. LOL. Then again, he said in interviews how much he has problems playing and singing at the same time.

Granted, I don't have the Reading '98 video and haven't sen it, so I'd have no idea. LOL

But do they use those vocal tracks for Sirens? It sounds way more fuller in the clip from the Jools Holland show, than just Barn and the woman singer.

Here it is: http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?p=new+order&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&b=19&oid=e9892576ce06e208&rurl=www.neworderonline.com&vdone=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.yahoo.com%2Fvideo%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dnew%2Border%26toggle%3D1%26cop%3Dmss%26ei%3DUTF-8%26b%3D11

Really awesome live version though. :p :D

Thanks!

I've always thought Regret used a sequenced guitar intro, perhaps back as far as Reading '93. Certainly they were using it on the recent tour.

And backing vocals are clearly audible in many live versions of Crystal, when Ms Zee is not present.

The debate starts up again

And i cant get that last link to work

Burt Reynolds wrote: And i cant get that last link to work

Hmm ok.. try this:

live at Jools Holland show

LOL Maybe that will work.

Burt Reynolds wrote: I've always thought Regret used a sequenced guitar intro, perhaps back as far as Reading '93. Certainly they were using it on the recent tour.

And backing vocals are clearly audible in many live versions of Crystal, when Ms Zee is not present.

The debate starts up again

Yeah, I noticed that on bootlegs of some Crystals.

Does Barn ever use his own vocals as backing tracks?

I heard someone say that the entire "Temptation" performance they did at the Manchester Commonwealth games in '98 was all mimed. Now THAT I cannot believe. It was obvious Steve was playing the drums (along with extra drum effect, though that isnt miming), dunno about Gillian.. and Hooky seemed to really be playing bass live and Barney was singing live. Though others say that wasnt the case about all the above. What the deal with that? I got to see it on Google video, actually. Really cool performance, I'd say.

Oh its from Jools.

Yup it has a backing track, and they were using the same at Wemberlee, mind you i cant recall them playing WFTSC without it.

PetShopQueen wrote:

I heard someone say that the entire "Temptation" performance they did at the Manchester Commonwealth games in '98 was all mimed. Now THAT I cannot believe. It was obvious Steve was playing the drums (along with extra drum effect, though that isnt miming), dunno about Gillian.. and Hooky seemed to really be playing bass live and Barney was singing live. Though others say that wasnt the case about all the above. What the deal with that? I got to see it on Google video, actually. Really cool performance, I'd say.

You mean this one?

NO, Manchester, Commonwealth Games

I just watched it again, and it does look slightly suspect, but probably more cos the sound is off sync with the pictures. Also it may have been heavily through the mixing desk, I dunno.

If they mimed it, it was to a live version of the song, but i doubt it very much.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

PetShopQueen wrote:

I heard someone say that the entire "Temptation" performance they did at the Manchester Commonwealth games in '98 was all mimed. Now THAT I cannot believe. It was obvious Steve was playing the drums (along with extra drum effect, though that isnt miming), dunno about Gillian.. and Hooky seemed to really be playing bass live and Barney was singing live. Though others say that wasnt the case about all the above. What the deal with that? I got to see it on Google video, actually. Really cool performance, I'd say.

You mean this one?

NO, Manchester, Commonwealth Games

I just watched it again, and it does look slightly suspect, but probably more cos the sound is off sync with the pictures. Also it may have been heavily through the mixing desk, I dunno.

If they mimed it, it was to a live version of the song, but i doubt it very much.

LOL! I just watched it again, too. LOL

I dunno, I didn't even think twice about it until I saw something someone was saying on another board, and I was like wtf? LOL

But after watching it with that in mind, it does sound like its almost too in tune, and constructed to be fully 'live'. Sounds almost like the one on Trainspotting. Even Barney's on tune. Not accusing anything! Just I could see maybe why now. I didnt before, but who knows.

But with shows like that, a lot of times they want he performer to mime, or mime certain things. (Like superbowl and TOTP's which I STILL don't understand why. Programming timing or content control?)

Burt Reynolds wrote: Oh its from Jools.

Yup it has a backing track, and they were using the same at Wemberlee, mind you i cant recall them playing WFTSC without it.

The part right at the first "I wont desert you"? This was the video that started the whole thing, and the documentary on another music forum (non-New Order related), and was posted and I thought I'd bring it here. Its cool and interesting anyway. All the tech stuff and how the band does this or that. Just wanted to make it clear I wasnt trying to start any shit-stirring or whatever.

Jeffari-al-Texani wrote: ahh...I thought we would have ALL seen that by now...

Seen what? lol

"Though, earlier on they have Barn on the 2nd bass on Confusion. LOL Not sure what kind that one is. Its awesome tho!"

I believe it's a Music Man Stingray... It is strange to see Barney playing bass... esp. one of those.

Nice bit of lobbying for Ceremony to return Al Should never have been left off of any setlist IMO.

Quite possibly the best song ever

The version of Regret from Retro disc 4 is definitely live guitar all the way through, 'cause the intro sounds a bit different from the studio version.

In the case of Reading '98, there's never a clear shot of Bernard playing the riff to Regret. He's just strumming along. Of course, then he plays a bit of extra guitar during the bridge. Typical mucking about.

Also, his vocals in 511 are way superior to Reading '98. And some of the live stuff I've heard from 2006 sounds way better than the audio from the first few performances in support of WFTSC. Perhaps Bernard is focusing again on his vocals?

Spot backing vox are FAr more likely to be dropped in from a sampler than off a backing track....leaves more room for the arrangement to go wrong ;) The moment you go to a linear backing track you impose all sorts of contraints on yourself with all sorts of embarrassing conseqences of running foul of them.

H+S is a synth with a big fat organ patch playing the "bass bass", it's hardly the heaviest use of a sequencer they've ever made though i it.

Round and round also features B-vox (or maybe a harmonizer) live.

Does anyone have the audio to that version of "Confusion" or any like that? I REALLY love that bass he uses in it. It sounds fucking amazing.

Doctor? wrote: Spot backing vox are FAr more likely to be dropped in from a sampler than off a backing track....leaves more room for the arrangement to go wrong ;) The moment you go to a linear backing track you impose all sorts of contraints on yourself with all sorts of embarrassing conseqences of running foul of them.

H+S is a synth with a big fat organ patch playing the "bass bass", it's hardly the heaviest use of a sequencer they've ever made though i it.

Round and round also features B-vox (or maybe a harmonizer) live.

Like with the WFTSC clip, it sounds REAL, and not like a sampler/backing track. Its amazing how they do that. But also kinda freaky. Like there were two Barney's there.

The singer herself sounded perfectly live too.. but.. I have no idea now. LOL!!!!!

Any sampler built after about 1988 can do 44.1KHz @ 16bit, the exact same as audio CD (and veru often MUCH higher qualities are available....96Khz @24 bit is common), the 44.1Khz, by way of Nyquist theory, gives a theoretical highest recordable pitch of 22.05Khz, which is as high, or higher than medically perfect human hearing can detect (the vague whine, the sort of "aura more than sound" that a CRT television makes....you know the one that lets you tell it's switched on even with a black screen and the sound down, is 16Khz (erm on a PAL TV in the UK anyway), to give you some idea of how high that is). And 16bit gives you 65536 graduations in volume from silence to loudest, and provides a signal to noise ratio of 96dB (which is LOADS)

The best way to get it to sound "live-ish" is to bring the vocal output of the sampler in to the mixer on it's own, and treat it with the same effects being used on the "real" vocals.

I am undecided as to where the various "multi-barney" noises come from, it COULD be ADT ( automatic double tracking, using tiny delays to make it appear there are multiple tracks of vocals playing) however, this tends to sound chorussy and can be a real kamikaze move to use live.

Don;t get me wrong, on some tracks, where other "tape" parts are needed, I have no ddoubt the backing vox live on the tape, but when it's live band and sequencers ( not so much if at all nowdays), the sampler is defo the way to go. Any time the SNSS have done vocals live, that's how we have done it too...tho maily so we could goon around with the sampled vocals in the improv bits ;)

i think i have all these on dvd.

Doctor? wrote: Any sampler built after about 1988 can do 44.1KHz @ 16bit, the exact same as audio CD (and veru often MUCH higher qualities are available....96Khz @24 bit is common), the 44.1Khz, by way of Nyquist theory, gives a theoretical highest recordable pitch of 22.05Khz, which is as high, or higher than medically perfect human hearing can detect (the vague whine, the sort of "aura more than sound" that a CRT television makes....you know the one that lets you tell it's switched on even with a black screen and the sound down, is 16Khz (erm on a PAL TV in the UK anyway), to give you some idea of how high that is). And 16bit gives you 65536 graduations in volume from silence to loudest, and provides a signal to noise ratio of 96dB (which is LOADS)

The best way to get it to sound "live-ish" is to bring the vocal output of the sampler in to the mixer on it's own, and treat it with the same effects being used on the "real" vocals.

I am undecided as to where the various "multi-barney" noises come from, it COULD be ADT ( automatic double tracking, using tiny delays to make it appear there are multiple tracks of vocals playing) however, this tends to sound chorussy and can be a real kamikaze move to use live.

Don;t get me wrong, on some tracks, where other "tape" parts are needed, I have no ddoubt the backing vox live on the tape, but when it's live band and sequencers ( not so much if at all nowdays), the sampler is defo the way to go. Any time the SNSS have done vocals live, that's how we have done it too...tho maily so we could goon around with the sampled vocals in the improv bits ;)

Wow!! How the heck do you know all this stuff???! I assume you work in the field? It all goes over my head, (all this tech stuff, lol) LOL .. but I think I get what you're saying. Its way more complicated and involved than I ever imagined. Gives me a hell of a lot more appreciation for it all.

As far as regular live concerts go, has Barney (or even Hook) ever lip-synched (or instrumentally mimed) a whole song/show?

Which songs do they usually use the backing choruses for live? like including Barney singing over pre-recorded Barneys. LOL

Also, in the beginning of the album version of EGG.. what kind of synth/effect is that? Is there a website anywhere that lists like what kinda synths and other devices were used on each song?

PetShopQueen wrote: Which songs do they usually use the backing choruses for live? like including Barney singing over pre-recorded Barneys. LOL

Also, in the beginning of the album version of EGG.. what kind of synth/effect is that? Is there a website anywhere that lists like what kinda synths and other devices were used on each song?

I think you have LOL more in this thread than Barney has ever lip-synched. At first it nagged me, but as I write this, your consistent usage is almost endearing. Perhaps it's the Beck's and that bed beckons me (what an awful pun).

Schring schring schring.

JV wrote:

PetShopQueen wrote: Which songs do they usually use the backing choruses for live? like including Barney singing over pre-recorded Barneys. LOL

Also, in the beginning of the album version of EGG.. what kind of synth/effect is that? Is there a website anywhere that lists like what kinda synths and other devices were used on each song?

I think you have LOL more in this thread than Barney has ever lip-synched. At first it nagged me, but as I write this, your consistent usage is almost endearing. Perhaps it's the Beck's and that bed beckons me (what an awful pun).

Schring schring schring.

:p

Doctor? wrote:

Round and round also features B-vox (or maybe a harmonizer) live.

Round and round was Backing vox, there are some live recordings where the Backing vocals are playing away nicely and Barney's off somewhere else completely!

I think they are used on Turn as well - I seem to remember when Turn made an early live appearance this year (in Manc?)Baney missed the cue for the final chorus and was out of sync to a more tuneful-sounding version of himself. weird. I agree with Steve, it's more likely to be sampled and linked to the click track than an actual backing tape CTB

CTB wrote: Baney missed the cue for the final chorus and was out of sync to a more tuneful-sounding version of himself. weird.

That short "documentary" was filmed by uber-Viking Mr. Jonathan Scott whom many of you know and who was last spotted at the Glasgow Academy shows last month. You can see his reflection in Barney's sunglasses during the interview at Move.

Trivia/Weird Coincidence Time : Before I ever met Jonathan I caught two dudes trying to burgle his house. He lived next door to my ex and was only ever refered to as "that grumpy bastard from accross the way". It was to be a few years before we were introduced and I realised who he was. And he still hasn't thanked me!

Roger Lyons mentions in the SOS article on Blue Monday that they used the recorded vocoder vocals as backing tracks (as opposed to using a vocoder live). So I'm sure they use regular recorded backing vocals elsewhere. Triggering samples makes a lot of sense - they don't need to be tied to the click track - but I've read that they're using Akai DR16 hard disk recorders for the backing tracks, not sequencers. Understandable, I guess - bookers like reliability - but a shame.

Their early equipment is pretty well known (Prophet 5, Moog Source, DMX, Voyetra 8, etc.), and they're using mostly Doepfer and Nord modular stuff these days, along with a lot of software. I'd like to hear more about their late-80's gear, though, like where they got that kick drum sample in Vanishing Point...

so is that a different version of the little doco on the 511 dvd? I think it's 511 anyway. It's a little bit different but it has those same interviews on it. I'm positive i've seen bits of that somewhere.

Ta very much for posting, I always love seeing confusion done live, although fottage is rare. Ta muchly!

Someone referred to the 511 video having "in-tune" vocals.

As Doctor will comply, it is very easy these days to retrospectively retune vocals using a sampler when mixing.

Simply sample the vocal track and it does not take long to alter the pitch on "bum notes" until they are right.

I noticed it immediately when I watched it and it ruined it for me. I want the real thing!