The New Order cover art debate....

I have been reading these forums for a few years now, both from the point of view of a fan, and also as someone who has worked on related artwork. Clearly there is a lot of heated debate about the overall design of the bands output, as well as the content, and I can fully understand the different points of view. I am by no means an expert on it all, and I’m sure there are plenty of you guys who know more about the band and it's history than I do, but maybe I can help shed a bit of light here and there on a few things.

Unfortunately we live in a world now where, as far as the tight-as-fuck record companies are concerned, there is simply no desire to put any effort into the cover art, graphics, and packaging etc. It is the polar opposite of Factory and everything they believed in, which is why it's so heartbreaking to see bands getting hoovered up by the big players, only so they can let them rot, with no real support, simply because they are not selling albums on the scale of some shitty US R&B bollocks.

I was blown away the first time I got my hands on Unknown Pleasures, in every way. The content was totally different and engaging, as was the way it was presented, right down to the texture of the outer sleeve. It seemed that there was simply no detail that hadn't been agonised over until it was perfect, and as far as I was concerned, it set the benchmark for the way albums were presented from then on.

Skip forward 30 years, and we have entered the dark ages of how music is treated. The budgets have been slashed to such a point, that when it comes to a band like New Order, despite all the respect they have earned from the masses, the artwork etc has to be done as almost a favour.

Clearly this has an impact on the end result, and if there is no money for any kind of experimentation or development of ideas, we end up with an album being presented without the same consideration that once was the case.

Ultimately big labels only give a shit about big money, and that’s why I feel a sense of loss, when an independent label loses a band they have caringly nurtured, to one of the big fuckers.

On the one hand the Internet has meant that music has been reduced to nothing but a string of data, and a shitty little jpeg for artwork, let alone any of the other lost content. This is clearly only going to become more widespread, so that we have gone from the glorious 12" format, to the crappy little CD size, and now it looks like that too will shrink down further to nothing. I never thought I would see the day where I look back fondly at the size of a Jewel Case!

Still on the flip side, the Internet is allowing artists to reach people directly, and thus the big labels are falling over themselves to try and work out how to turn around their downslide in profits. Well I think fuck 'em, they have screwed people for so long now that they have forgotten how to take it as well as dish it out.

Hopefully it will signal the rise of the independents, which actually give a shit about the artists, and fan bases that don't number in the billions.

Just thought it would put that out there!

Well when my label is up and running in the next few months, we shall be concentrating on 12" vinyl to start with, then some CDs, so there is plenty of scope for artwork!

oldmonkey wrote: Well when my label is up and running in the next few months, we shall be concentrating on 12" vinyl to start with, then some CDs, so there is plenty of scope for artwork!

Don't forget though, that to do it properly you have to make a loss on every copy you sell!

Rubbish!

The purpose of the sleeve is to identify the record or cd and protect it from getting scratched. The 'artwork' has no value on it's own.

MP3s are the way forward - they can't get damaged by rubbing against one another and can easily be identified by the file name so no need for artwork at all. And, to the relief of Mothers everywhere, they don't need to be stored in huge bloody boxes back at your folks house.

The designers can go back to doing their art and the musicians can get on with the music.

Not surprising that Bill would have his opinion, just like a Turkey might vote for the abolition of Christmas.

If you want art, go to a gallery.

BIGINOIL wrote: Rubbish!

The purpose of the sleeve is to identify the record or cd and protect it from getting scratched. The 'artwork' has no value on it's own.

MP3s are the way forward - they can't get damaged by rubbing against one another and can easily be identified by the file name so no need for artwork at all. And, to the relief of Mothers everywhere, they don't need to be stored in huge bloody boxes back at your folks house.

The designers can go back to doing their art and the musicians can get on with the music.

Not surprising that Bill would have his opinion, just like a Turkey might vote for the abolition of Christmas.

If you want art, go to a gallery.

What is this, BIG IN DEVIL's ADVOCACY??!!

BIGINOIL wrote: Rubbish!

The purpose of the sleeve is to identify the record or cd and protect it from getting scratched. The 'artwork' has no value on it's own.

MP3s are the way forward - they can't get damaged by rubbing against one another and can easily be identified by the file name so no need for artwork at all. And, to the relief of Mothers everywhere, they don't need to be stored in huge bloody boxes back at your folks house.

The designers can go back to doing their art and the musicians can get on with the music.

Not surprising that Bill would have his opinion, just like a Turkey might vote for the abolition of Christmas.

If you want art, go to a gallery.

If i based my livelihood on earnings from album artwork (especially with P.S. !) i would have died of malnutrition ages ago.

MP3's can get damaged, epspecially if your hard drive fails and you lose 20 thousand mp3's (i should know!), but at least i had all the records & CD's to re-rip.

i don't rub my records together, there are easier ways to start a fire.

I have nothing against MP3's, it's there ONLY being mp3's that i don't like the idea of. I don't listen to CD's on the move or at work, because MP3's are so much more practical, but then a volvo estate is more practical than my current car, but it doesn't mean i want one. I would never by music in MP3 form either, unless i had to, i would always buy the CD or Vinyl and rip it to that format.

Ultimately most of what surrounds us could be accused of involving unnecessary artwork, but it would be a very bland world without it.

Still, this is a debate, so thanks for your wise words!

The 'artwork' of New Order has steadily been on the decline for a long time. I personally im fed up with these white sleeves, i think Saville has lost his touch and has nothing left to offer.

The last decent sleeve was for the single Regret, but the last great NO sleeve belongs to True Faith or TBTHOG (both of which are now 20 years ago).

He was a creative genius, who created record sleeves that were unique to New Order and could stand as 'art' on their own.

Those days are long gone.

If there is another album, single of compilation i hope they look elsewhere.

Sorry this is a repost from the other thread, but realized afterwords that this is the proper thread for this....

Actually, i think the cover art for mp3s just hasn't been tapped yet. With the video iPod out, I think this gives unlimited potential. First it can display album art while the song plays (and I for one will track down album art to put on the iPod, as without it it feels wrong). Currently all album art tends to be scanned versions of paper covers, but realistically it could be much more than that. It could possibly hold a GIF image, and add movement and possible 3D aspect to the artwork. Also with the video aspect of the iPod, each could hold its own music video, per say, possibly something like screen savers? Imagine the inside of the republic sleeve sliding across the screen, with the cowboys, crashing car, etc. punched out from the backdrop while Regret is playing. That would be really cool. Of course there would be a possible mb size issue, but with the 80 GB ipod at a reasonable price, I think it is very possible.

EdelBrock wrote: Sorry this is a repost from the other thread, but realized afterwords that this is the proper thread for this....

Actually, i think the cover art for mp3s just hasn't been tapped yet. With the video iPod out, I think this gives unlimited potential. First it can display album art while the song plays (and I for one will track down album art to put on the iPod, as without it it feels wrong). Currently all album art tends to be scanned versions of paper covers, but realistically it could be much more than that. It could possibly hold a GIF image, and add movement and possible 3D aspect to the artwork. Also with the video aspect of the iPod, each could hold its own music video, per say, possibly something like screen savers? Imagine the inside of the republic sleeve sliding across the screen, with the cowboys, crashing car, etc. punched out from the backdrop while Regret is playing. That would be really cool. Of course there would be a possible mb size issue, but with the 80 GB ipod at a reasonable price, I think it is very possible.

That's an interesting idea, and I'm sure Bill and others are looking into stuff like that.

Personally i love the artwork, I've always been interested in graphic design and typography. For me savilles work has always defined a new order product (other than sub culture, but that defined what a bland re-mix the single was).

As for the next NO offerings, I think it is about time NO moved on from saville, and saville would more than likely agree, I'd love to see something purely from bill without any guidence from saville.

i've always appreciated the artwork that goes with good music, like the triangular orange vinyl of jonny clarke (!) or pil's metal box or yes the heavy texture of unknown pleasures and the glossy thick inner sleeve that reprints didn't offer. the hessian cover of still. it's tactile, multi sensory stuff.

Some really good constructive comments here again. And yes, I'm of the old school whereby I consider the record packaging as important as the contents themselves in many ways. :)

In the past I also used to pick up records or albums because I thought the sleeves looked pretty interesting.

But returning to the New Order output, it appears that many others too share my disillusionment of all the "white" sleeves and the same choice of typographic font/style, citing the Republic era artwork as being the last of the truly "gallery-esque" sleeve concepts for the band. However, even with the Republic cover, not all the formats featured the whole range of juxtaposed imagery that became so definitive for that time - only the CD and cassette (was there a mini disc version?). The vinyl album version was very disappointing - plain black back and inner sleeve (with white text). I felt really cheated when I first bought that album and then slipped the inner sleeve out to be confronted with a black inner bag on thin-graded paper.

Even worse happened with Get Ready - the CD featured the black and white photos of the scruffy beatnik girl, the vinyl version didn't even have a proper inner sleeve - just plain white PAPER sleeve. What was the reasoning behind this dreadful lack of quality control (bearing in mind WFTSC was a gatefolded cover with two 12"s in glossy inner picture sleeves each)? That really spoiled it for me.....probably the nadir of all the album covers by that point.

I can understand completely the criticisms where some of the later album covers are concerned, and all i can say is that money (or lack of), and perhaps a certain degree of interference probably play a part in the presentation of albums not being as they should or could have been.

I think the original idea for the single crystal was great, but again the record company comes in and say no, or there isn't time etc, and so it goes to plan B, or C etc, and before you know it the spark has been lost. Crystal was originally planned to be a CD in a completely clear case, with a completely clear full size CD, apart from where the actual information is printed (see Peter's book). The only addition was the red bar running across the front of the jewel case (as per the album), which was in reference to the strips you get on clear doors in airports etc, to stop you walking into them. I thought that was a great idea for a single called Crystal, but it never saw the light of day. OK that’s probably too minimal for most people, but in it's context it worked a treat.

Yes i can see why the white covers with a nothing but text can seem lacking for people, and i would be lying if i said that i preferred the later releases to the early ones. Maybe this was down to the fact that they were never realised, as they should have been. For example, the re-released non-factory versions of the back catalogue have i felt, lost a lot, simply by being printed on a crappy low quality paper stock etc, which played such an important part originally.

As far as the next New Order album goes, i have absolutely no idea of how, or by who, it will be done, i just hope it signals some kind of revival of those early statements.

Bill any thoughts on the idea I posted a bit earlier in this thread?

Everytime I listen to vintage New Order the artwork automatically visualises in my head. The colours and classical majesty of the sleeve of PCL perfectly reflects the depth, colour and almost classical sound in that album, the micro dots on the cover of Temptation 12" totally reflect the sequencer bouncing all over the place etc etc. Ok, I know that sounds bollocks, but artwork is vital.

EdelBrock wrote: It could possibly hold a GIF image, and add movement and possible 3D aspect to the artwork. Also with the video aspect of the iPod, each could hold its own music video, per say, possibly something like screen savers? Imagine the inside of the republic sleeve sliding across the screen, with the cowboys, crashing car, etc. punched out from the backdrop while Regret is playing.

According to Bernard, Saville did plan to put some moving graphics on the original CD of Republic (it was somewhat hip in the early '90s), but it never came to be. What you're suggesting would be a nice way to present the original idea.

Agree completely & utterly with Bill.As for the much maligned sleeve for WFTSC,I like it.To me,it says 'Fook off,we're New Order,this is the sleeve.If you don't like it,so what'.It's got typical N.O. attitude all over it.It stands out,it provokes comment,& it encapsulates the spirit & essence of what Factory was about.That's the point,it's not necessarily about whether you like it or not.It has been mentioned many times on NOOL about 'old vs new' etc.,& sure,classic '80's N.O. is much more preferable to later N.O. to me & IMO,but to disregard the later artwork as opposed to the Factory era stuff in the same way,is ludicrous.That's suggesting that the two are connected.Saville never even listened to the music.As he said,it was a glorious accident.I've mentioned before,there's not really one piece of N.O./JD artwork that I think is crap.Not even anywhere near.Even if I've not been bowled over by it,I tend to see thru' it & think of what it's representing.Spirit,attitude,originality & fooking great music.

BIGINOIL wrote: Rubbish!

The purpose of the sleeve is to identify the record or cd and protect it from getting scratched. The 'artwork' has no value on it's own.

MP3s are the way forward - they can't get damaged by rubbing against one another and can easily be identified by the file name so no need for artwork at all. And, to the relief of Mothers everywhere, they don't need to be stored in huge bloody boxes back at your folks house.

The designers can go back to doing their art and the musicians can get on with the music.

Not surprising that Bill would have his opinion, just like a Turkey might vote for the abolition of Christmas.

If you want art, go to a gallery.

As I've just posted,I don't agree at all. True,the artwork has no monetary value,but it has definately got value.Do you honestly think that the N.O./JD respected legacy would be as great if it wasn't for the artwork? Factory/The Hac' too? Not a chance.It's part of the package,& that's how they will always be remembered,& that's as valuable as it can get.

EdelBrock wrote: Bill any thoughts on the idea I posted a bit earlier in this thread?

i think you have certainly highlighted something that will without a doubt be the next stage in the evolution of how albums are going to evolve in their electronic form. Like you say, now that video iPods etc have started to embrace the fact that there have always been images which acompany the music, it should signal the start of people being more creative with how that is used. Hopefully it will mean that all the sleevenotes etc will also start to see the light of day on this format.

I do think though that this is really a case of making the best of a different situation, because i don't think there is any substitute for something you can actually physically hold, which yuo can always easily convert to the more practical MP3 format.

I am far from anti-technology, and am always interested in seeing where it is going. It's these advances in technology that allow me to explore new ideas with the work i do, so i certainly have respect for it, but at the same time i have a lot of respect for what has gone before it, and i jsut feel that it's easy to not realise what you had until it's gone. It's all about balance in my book.

at least one thing is for sure, judging by the responses to the New Order covers, they never fail to stir some debate, so i guess there has to be some artistic integrity to all of them.

Bill Holding wrote: at least one thing is for sure, judging by the responses to the New Order covers, they never fail to stir some debate, so i guess there has to be some artistic integrity to all of them.

apart from sub culture

Jed Stephens wrote:

Bill Holding wrote: at least one thing is for sure, judging by the responses to the New Order covers, they never fail to stir some debate, so i guess there has to be some artistic integrity to all of them.

apart from sub culture

But....but.....in case you've overlooked it, there IS artistic integrity even in the CrudCulture sleeve....!!!!! Even if it is very subtle.

And that is, it's fully sympathetic and representative of the single itself:

"CRAP SLEEVE, CRAP RECORD !!!!"

Doctor Clayhead wrote:

What is this, BIG IN DEVIL's ADVOCACY??!!

BOLLOCKS!

I just wrote a lovely reply to this, but I took too long to post it and now it's lost.

It went something like:

Devils advocacy, isn't that where you argue against a point of view or put forward opinions that you do not nessesarily hold simply for the sake of argument or to promote debate?

It worked quite well, didn't it? Do I win £40?

I then rambled on for several pages about the experience of buying vinyl and how much of the quality went from the experience of buying music when the brittle jewel cases and flimsy booklets of the cd era started to dominate.

As we move further towards a mostly all-download market, the prize will be there for someone who can succesfully enhance the experience further than paying 79p, instantly receiving your file and only listening to half of it.

Someone (I'm sure it was Morrissey) said that a true music fanatic will love the crackle on the intro track as much as the music itself. Would today's equivalent of Morrissey (if that isn't an oxymoron) be able to say the same about the wirr of a cd player warming up, or the Windows welcome tone? Probably not.

Surely the same is true of much of the experience of buying music on vinyl. Getting the bus into town, dodging the muggers, trawling the shops for the tracks you want then the agonising wait during the journey home, during which each detail of the cover, label and any scratched messages in the run-off could be studied in detail. The very act of playing vinyl was an experience in itself - not touching any part of the playing surface or label, placing the arm without scratching the disk, hiding the records from younger siblings so that they didn't borrow them and return them scratched.

Hands up anyone who used to buy two copies of records: one to play and one to keep in perfect condition

Hands up who used to make 12" sleeves (all white!) from A3 paper nicked from the school photocopier so that the real sleeves could be stuck on your bedroom wall

And hands up anyone who's spent hundreds of pounds on vinyl to replace lost records, fill gaps in a collection or merely to obtain better-preserved copies, even though they don't have a record player, and have no intention of buying one

I finished by saying that no wonder today's kids are youtubing themselves being thrown into hedges - all the quality has gone out of their lives.

And now it's gone, forever. Well I can't be arsed to type it all in again.

Bill Holding wrote: I can understand completely the criticisms where some of the later album covers are concerned, and all i can say is that money (or lack of), and perhaps a certain degree of interference probably play a part in the presentation of albums not being as they should or could have been.

I think the original idea for the single crystal was great, but again the record company comes in and say no, or there isn't time etc, and so it goes to plan B, or C etc, and before you know it the spark has been lost. Crystal was originally planned to be a CD in a completely clear case, with a completely clear full size CD, apart from where the actual information is printed (see Peter's book). The only addition was the red bar running across the front of the jewel case (as per the album), which was in reference to the strips you get on clear doors in airports etc,

Chalk another line for the multi- sensory, old- skool appeal of music. That the Cover art is a !big part of the Disc. Vinyl has the temperature. Cool only- touch the edges. The tactile part of it all, that Digitally released (only) lines of data will never match. Fail to accept that most any recording Artist will include the seconds found on Records as the needle runs. Before the start, between tunes and at the ends. Or the etched promises, lines in the Centre. Old Blue. Secrets if you will made public only if you've bought the record. That's all part of the Deal. The current Future direction of instant upload Downloads to listen has the convenience though a seperate topic- issue entirely.

The time spent between the shop the Record player, true is time spent lost in- exploring the details. Factory, or other Labels that paid attention to detail, held the attention. For specifically JD- and New Order not having each song listed gets you thinking. Genius can at times be random when instincts just work. Plain. Then the notion that Saville had meticulously thought each Fine part though. Were the different Vinyl disc colours Random. Then some of the Facts that came out in various Design books. Makes it all that much more Special. Wishes that others will continue that style and scene. As this thread addresses the perceived quality missed in the later Editions NO releases s'ppose the Let Down to many might not have been that the Buck was passed, wasn't there or the interference of the Major Labels.. but that there was an Indifference. Maybe that's why it hurt. Also one who bought a Record just because it had an excellent Cover or had never heard the mix but was on a certain label. Catching Cover sold just on the strength of being simple Eye Candy. Like the risk of the beautiful stranger. The Clear Crystal CD w/ the shaded stripe.. That's !Dream Candy.

mark kelly wrote: Agree completely & utterly with Bill.As for the much maligned sleeve for WFTSC,I like it.To me,it says 'Fook off,we're New Order,this is the sleeve.If you don't like it,so what'.It's got typical N.O. attitude all over it.It stands out,it provokes comment,& it encapsulates the spirit & essence of what Factory was about.That's the point,it's not necessarily about whether you like it or not.It has been mentioned many times on NOOL about 'old vs new' etc.,& sure,classic '80's N.O. is much more preferable to later N.O. to me & IMO,but to disregard the later artwork as opposed to the Factory era stuff in the same way,is ludicrous.That's suggesting that the two are connected.Saville never even listened to the music.As he said,it was a glorious accident.I've mentioned before,there's not really one piece of N.O./JD artwork that I think is crap.Not even anywhere near.Even if I've not been bowled over by it,I tend to see thru' it & think of what it's representing.Spirit,attitude,originality & fooking great music.

as has been pointed out mark - the popular story is that he definitely listened to sub culture & because he didn't like it he didn't do the sleeve

EdelBrock wrote: Sorry this is a repost from the other thread, but realized afterwords that this is the proper thread for this....

Actually, i think the cover art for mp3s just hasn't been tapped yet. With the video iPod out, I think this gives unlimited potential. First it can display album art while the song plays (and I for one will track down album art to put on the iPod, as without it it feels wrong). Currently all album art tends to be scanned versions of paper covers, but realistically it could be much more than that. It could possibly hold a GIF image, and add movement and possible 3D aspect to the artwork. Also with the video aspect of the iPod, each could hold its own music video, per say, possibly something like screen savers? Imagine the inside of the republic sleeve sliding across the screen, with the cowboys, crashing car, etc. punched out from the backdrop while Regret is playing. That would be really cool. Of course there would be a possible mb size issue, but with the 80 GB ipod at a reasonable price, I think it is very possible.

whilst i'm the same in terms of getting the sleeve pictures on the ipod, i never watch it whilst listening to it to conserve battery life!

/delurk

about what you could do with MP3s, somebody was saying add gifs etc, this is coming as audio slideshows. At the moment they are being used as a tool by photographers and reporters, but there is nothing to stop them being used as vids in a some kind of distribution format. don't know any music ones but check out this BBC article on a day at a Lido to get a feel about what you can achieve

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4785767.stm

the interesting part about this is not every photo has to be superb, you are telling a story in pictures and its the audio that carries you through. the picture is there long enough for you to fully appreciate it though, not like music vids aimed at people with ADHD

i believe its a great vehicle for music (though not something you'd play on mtv perhaps) and just being a bunch of stills you get smaller downloads than video.

it is ridicoulsly easy to create one of these (into html/flash), check out http://www.soundslides.com/ a free demo going on there that just says "free demo" at the start, rest works the same. and unlike youtube its pictures and audio are in sync!

creating good looking, interesting video and editing it together takes a lot of equipment, time, money, talent. lack any of these and the output is dull (youtube anybody?). Its far easier to tell a story in a bunch of stills and get meaning into each frame.

yeah i'd love to do a JD/NO audio slideshow (im just branching into audio slideshows with my photography from a journalistic stance, just got a Zoom H4 for portable audio recording) but don't want/need the legal hassle of sticking a full song on the web. If the record label is out there and doesnt mind me having a go then well ok.

the sleeve is as much art as the music. you can't dance to sleeve art, and you can't look at a synth line.

hibster wrote:

mark kelly wrote: Agree completely & utterly with Bill.As for the much maligned sleeve for WFTSC,I like it.To me,it says 'Fook off,we're New Order,this is the sleeve.If you don't like it,so what'.It's got typical N.O. attitude all over it.It stands out,it provokes comment,& it encapsulates the spirit & essence of what Factory was about.That's the point,it's not necessarily about whether you like it or not.It has been mentioned many times on NOOL about 'old vs new' etc.,& sure,classic '80's N.O. is much more preferable to later N.O. to me & IMO,but to disregard the later artwork as opposed to the Factory era stuff in the same way,is ludicrous.That's suggesting that the two are connected.Saville never even listened to the music.As he said,it was a glorious accident.I've mentioned before,there's not really one piece of N.O./JD artwork that I think is crap.Not even anywhere near.Even if I've not been bowled over by it,I tend to see thru' it & think of what it's representing.Spirit,attitude,originality & fooking great music.

as has been pointed out mark - the popular story is that he definitely listened to sub culture & because he didn't like it he didn't do the sleeve

Yeh,I give you that one.Kind of blocked that one from my memory:(

I only BOUGHT anyof their RECORDS so i had something to DUST.Beats listening to the dross MUSIC!

ROCKET MICK wrote: I only BOUGHT anyof their RECORDS so i had something to DUST.Beats listening to the dross MUSIC!

And they offer a decent starting platform from which to skin up,which seems to have been completley ommitted from the debate,bewilderingly.

Never had much success with that, in fact.

I think I press down to hard at certain critical points.

Prefer a good hardback, personally.

CD cases are just the thing for lines though

BIGINOIL wrote: Never had much success with that, in fact.

I think I press down to hard at certain critical points.

Prefer a good hardback, personally.

CD cases are just the thing for lines though

I have a mate who has more or less the same issues with it as yerself Biggy..He blames it on big thumbs Some of the more skeptical amongst us reckon he just does'nt want to put in the graft

Are you biginthumbs Biggy? If you were to say great big daft thumbs are a handicap aswell,then perhaps my mucker would have a point..Until then he remains an idle cunt.

Edit: Having said that,if you were stuck at sea with a broken motor on your boat and no oars you'd want this fella there to row you to safety with his thumbs..His thumbs are OARSOME!

I had one piano lesson when I was a kid.

The teacher said I had fingers like pigs tits.

Great for blaming your shocking guitar ability on, but not much else.

Better than fingers like pigs cocks though eh B. I don't mind a tinkle on the ivories,as it goes..I recently learned the keyboard bit of Krafty.My favourite bit of the tune aswell.. Can't tell you how chuffin chuffed I was..One to put in me locker along with KW1 and Love Vigilantes.

Boatraceface wrote: Better than fingers like pigs cocks though eh B. I don't mind a tinkle on the ivories,as it goes..I recently learned the keyboard bit of Krafty.My favourite bit of the tune aswell.. Can't tell you how chuffin chuffed I was..One to put in me locker along with KW1 and Love Vigilantes.

At least thats better than learning to play it with your tongue!

But you now need to start working on the keyboard line to Jizzstream mate.

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Boatraceface wrote: Better than fingers like pigs cocks though eh B. I don't mind a tinkle on the ivories,as it goes..I recently learned the keyboard bit of Krafty.My favourite bit of the tune aswell.. Can't tell you how chuffin chuffed I was..One to put in me locker along with KW1 and Love Vigilantes.

At least thats better than learning to play it with your tongue!

Wow! Do you play with your tongue?

(inbetween washing windows with it )

I typed out a nice well thought-out response and had it disappear right before I posted it ... . . really fucking annoying.

I've seen that original design for the cd single Crystal and it was PERFECT! Anyone that saw it would be like 'What IS this??' and pick it up - which is what record companies want isn't it??

What's Peter Saville been doing lately anyway? Last I heard he designed a park in London and he's done sleeves for 2 obscure bands - Lotterboys and Lorraine. But that was about a year ago??

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: I typed out a nice well thought-out response and had it disappear right before I posted it ... . . really fucking annoying.

I've seen that original design for the cd single Crystal and it was PERFECT! Anyone that saw it would be like 'What IS this??' and pick it up - which is what record companies want isn't it??

What's Peter Saville been doing lately anyway? Last I heard he designed a park in London and he's done sleeves for 2 obscure bands - Lotterboys and Lorraine. But that was about a year ago??

He seems pretty busy, and we've been working with him on a few projects over the last few months, all of which are at an early stage, and still under wraps. I think he is also still busy with the whole art directing of Manchester thing as well. I'll let you know more when i can. Put it this way, i don't think he's working on a NEW New Order album cover right now.

FtotheDoubleOff wrote:

What's Peter Saville been doing lately anyway?

Six months in Pentonville, for plagarism.

is there anywhere on the net that you can find a comprehensive list (with quality jpegs) of all their cover arts for their albums/singles/12 inches??? I would love to find a quality image of the World single.

Rob Revilo wrote: is there anywhere on the net that you can find a comprehensive list (with quality jpegs) of all their cover arts for their albums/singles/12 inches??? I would love to find a quality image of the World single.

http://www.niagara.edu/neworder/

rob CHECK OUT THE SINGLES COS THE covers are scanned in.Hope this HELPS!

the above REPLY is important!