Article: Hook 'won't release lost Joy Division song'

or as GENO said JEFF

The majority of the shitty knob-head kids who download shit, probably won't give a flying fuck on Freebass.

Biznotic Love Trapezoid wrote: Which releases do Mr. Hook believe have been hurt by downloading? I'd really like to hear which of the albums and singles he's been involved with have been hurt by downloads. The die-hards are pretty much all that remains of their fan base and as we know, we buy everything. So come on Hooky, show us how your paycheck has been hurt by illegal downloads. Be specific.

Now let's list the way the New Order and Joy Division fans have been fleeced by the record companies for decades and see who has the biggest grievance.

What releases have been hurt by downloads? Well the last two NO albums sold far less than Republic, and WFTSC sold less than GetReady. Once people can get hold of stuff for free they will. Sad but true in the case of music sales, have you not noticed all the record shops disappearing over the last decade?

Also there is now no market for singles at all, and I believe JD/NO were quite the singles band.

Even Jack's bass sounded better live at The Hacienda than Hooky's on the original tape

"It's not The Hacienda for f*cks sake"

Peter Hook 2010

johnny james wrote:

Biznotic Love Trapezoid wrote: Which releases do Mr. Hook believe have been hurt by downloading? I'd really like to hear which of the albums and singles he's been involved with have been hurt by downloads. The die-hards are pretty much all that remains of their fan base and as we know, we buy everything. So come on Hooky, show us how your paycheck has been hurt by illegal downloads. Be specific.

Now let's list the way the New Order and Joy Division fans have been fleeced by the record companies for decades and see who has the biggest grievance.

What releases have been hurt by downloads? Well the last two NO albums sold far less than Republic, and WFTSC sold less than GetReady. Once people can get hold of stuff for free they will. Sad but true in the case of music sales, have you not noticed all the record shops disappearing over the last decade?

Also there is now no market for singles at all, and I believe JD/NO were quite the singles band.

You don't think the serious slide in quality accounted for a few of those lost sales? I'm pretty sure when you poll the fans, those last 3 albums end up on the bottom of the list. Call me crazy, but mediocre albums peddled by aging musicians don't typically sell as much as the albums released in their peak. That's why it's called a peak. New Order has a fan base. If Peter Hook can't figure out a way to sell unreleased Joy Division tracks to that fan base, he's got some serious issues to resolve. Do you think a cd of Freebase would sell as much as a CD of Joy Division rarities from Hooky's closet? If he can't figure out how to sell this stuff, he needs to stick to performing live.

johnny james wrote: "It's not The Hacienda for f*cks sake"

Peter Hook 2010

I prefer it to FAC251

johnny james wrote: What releases have been hurt by downloads? Well the last two NO albums sold far less than Republic, and WFTSC sold less than GetReady. Once people can get hold of stuff for free they will. Sad but true in the case of music sales, have you not noticed all the record shops disappearing over the last decade?

Also there is now no market for singles at all, and I believe JD/NO were quite the singles band.

On the other hand you have someone like myself who bought FOUR different copies of WFTSC (UK CD and 2xLP, US CD, Japan CD), as well as every associated single in both CD and vinyl formats. A quick tally says I spent $200 on that album, PLUS I flew to London to see them live, so there's a concert ticket, too. That's certainly more than $15 for a CD that the average fan would spend.

Do downloads hurt record sales? Absolutely. So how do you account for bands like Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead who have pioneered new business models and thrived? How do you account for a new pop star like Lady GaGa the bulk of whose sales comes from downloads? What about a band like The Smiths who broke up 23 years ago but can still sell out a singles box? Using the excuse that downloads hurt sales so it's not worth even trying is a LAZY answer.

My little project has proven that there's a market. If the band would get off their asses and do a properly manufactured singles box with carefully mastered audio and original artwork it would sell out.

What Hooky really means to say is that he can't be bothered.

PS: singles market is dead? iTunes just did their TEN BILLIONTH download.

£50 Note wrote:

johnny james wrote: What releases have been hurt by downloads? Well the last two NO albums sold far less than Republic, and WFTSC sold less than GetReady. Once people can get hold of stuff for free they will. Sad but true in the case of music sales, have you not noticed all the record shops disappearing over the last decade?

Also there is now no market for singles at all, and I believe JD/NO were quite the singles band.

On the other hand you have someone like myself who bought FOUR different copies of WFTSC (UK CD and 2xLP, US CD, Japan CD), as well as every associated single in both CD and vinyl formats. A quick tally says I spent $200 on that album, PLUS I flew to London to see them live, so there's a concert ticket, too. That's certainly more than $15 for a CD that the average fan would spend.

Do downloads hurt record sales? Absolutely. So how do you account for bands like Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead who have pioneered new business models and thrived? How do you account for a new pop star like Lady GaGa the bulk of whose sales comes from downloads? What about a band like The Smiths who broke up 23 years ago but can still sell out a singles box? Using the excuse that downloads hurt sales so it's not worth even trying is a LAZY answer.

My little project has proven that there's a market. If the band would get off their asses and do a properly manufactured singles box with carefully mastered audio and original artwork it would sell out.

What Hooky really means to say is that he can't be bothered.

Spot on. There is a new market. If there was ever a time to release JD stuff it would be now. I've seen all sorts of random JD stuff around in stores, many kids today know them... who knows if that new fanbase will stick around for long... might as well rape them while the chance is still there.

Sometimes I wish NO weren't my favorite band, as their laziness and whining really do get on my nerves.

I know I never post on this board, but I've been into this band for over 20 years - and during that time it's same old shit - this band has made some of those most dedicated, creative and cerebral music I've known, and yet they seem to have never gotten their shit together. Can you imagine what more they could have accomplished if it wasn't for Hooky's borderline personality, or Bernard's insecurities? For fuck's sake...

So Hooky won't release a track from almost thirty years ago? No shit? He won't even release shit he recorded in the past year. Is it a surprise? It's the same old behavior we endured for these last twenty years. And if and when he does, what will it sound like? Probably Bad Lieutenant with bass...

Dammit.

Andrew Rice wrote: I know I never post on this board, but I've been into this band for over 20 years - and during that time it's same old shit - this band has made some of those most dedicated, creative and cerebral music I've known, and yet they seem to have never gotten their shit together. Can you imagine what more they could have accomplished if it wasn't for Hooky's borderline personality, or Bernard's insecurities? For fuck's sake...

So Hooky won't release a track from almost thirty years ago? No shit? He won't even release shit he recorded in the past year. Is it a surprise? It's the same old behavior we endured for these last twenty years. And if and when he does, what will it sound like? Probably Bad Lieutenant with bass...

Dammit.

Or Monaco on its last limbs.

£50 Note wrote:

johnny james wrote: What releases have been hurt by downloads? Well the last two NO albums sold far less than Republic, and WFTSC sold less than GetReady. Once people can get hold of stuff for free they will. Sad but true in the case of music sales, have you not noticed all the record shops disappearing over the last decade?

Also there is now no market for singles at all, and I believe JD/NO were quite the singles band.

On the other hand you have someone like myself who bought FOUR different copies of WFTSC (UK CD and 2xLP, US CD, Japan CD), as well as every associated single in both CD and vinyl formats. A quick tally says I spent $200 on that album, PLUS I flew to London to see them live, so there's a concert ticket, too. That's certainly more than $15 for a CD that the average fan would spend.

Do downloads hurt record sales? Absolutely. So how do you account for bands like Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead who have pioneered new business models and thrived? How do you account for a new pop star like Lady GaGa the bulk of whose sales comes from downloads? What about a band like The Smiths who broke up 23 years ago but can still sell out a singles box? Using the excuse that downloads hurt sales so it's not worth even trying is a LAZY answer.

My little project has proven that there's a market. If the band would get off their asses and do a properly manufactured singles box with carefully mastered audio and original artwork it would sell out.

What Hooky really means to say is that he can't be bothered.

You really said all I wanted to, and plus you gave us a quality product...which Singles clearly wasnt.

Biznotic Love Trapezoid wrote:

johnny james wrote:

Biznotic Love Trapezoid wrote: Which releases do Mr. Hook believe have been hurt by downloading? I'd really like to hear which of the albums and singles he's been involved with have been hurt by downloads. The die-hards are pretty much all that remains of their fan base and as we know, we buy everything. So come on Hooky, show us how your paycheck has been hurt by illegal downloads. Be specific.

Now let's list the way the New Order and Joy Division fans have been fleeced by the record companies for decades and see who has the biggest grievance.

What releases have been hurt by downloads? Well the last two NO albums sold far less than Republic, and WFTSC sold less than GetReady. Once people can get hold of stuff for free they will. Sad but true in the case of music sales, have you not noticed all the record shops disappearing over the last decade?

Also there is now no market for singles at all, and I believe JD/NO were quite the singles band.

You don't think the serious slide in quality accounted for a few of those lost sales? I'm pretty sure when you poll the fans, those last 3 albums end up on the bottom of the list. Call me crazy, but mediocre albums peddled by aging musicians don't typically sell as much as the albums released in their peak. That's why it's called a peak. New Order has a fan base. If Peter Hook can't figure out a way to sell unreleased Joy Division tracks to that fan base, he's got some serious issues to resolve. Do you think a cd of Freebase would sell as much as a CD of Joy Division rarities from Hooky's closet? If he can't figure out how to sell this stuff, he needs to stick to performing live.

You say the hardcore fans will buy everything regardless, yet then go on about a slide in quality as the reason they're not. I think 'Republic', 'GetReady' and 'WFTSC' are pretty even in quality.

Hooky hasn't got the new music business model figured out yet, but neither has the whole industry. The downloading revolution has butchered sales of albums and the labels don't know what to do about it. They now sell far less albums than any equivalent released in the 70s-80s-90s and this affects many things, like whether to even release albums.

EdelBrock wrote:

£50 Note wrote:

johnny james wrote: What releases have been hurt by downloads? Well the last two NO albums sold far less than Republic, and WFTSC sold less than GetReady. Once people can get hold of stuff for free they will. Sad but true in the case of music sales, have you not noticed all the record shops disappearing over the last decade?

Also there is now no market for singles at all, and I believe JD/NO were quite the singles band.

On the other hand you have someone like myself who bought FOUR different copies of WFTSC (UK CD and 2xLP, US CD, Japan CD), as well as every associated single in both CD and vinyl formats. A quick tally says I spent $200 on that album, PLUS I flew to London to see them live, so there's a concert ticket, too. That's certainly more than $15 for a CD that the average fan would spend.

Do downloads hurt record sales? Absolutely. So how do you account for bands like Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead who have pioneered new business models and thrived? How do you account for a new pop star like Lady GaGa the bulk of whose sales comes from downloads? What about a band like The Smiths who broke up 23 years ago but can still sell out a singles box? Using the excuse that downloads hurt sales so it's not worth even trying is a LAZY answer.

My little project has proven that there's a market. If the band would get off their asses and do a properly manufactured singles box with carefully mastered audio and original artwork it would sell out.

What Hooky really means to say is that he can't be bothered.

Spot on. There is a new market. If there was ever a time to release JD stuff it would be now. I've seen all sorts of random JD stuff around in stores, many kids today know them... who knows if that new fanbase will stick around for long... might as well rape them while the chance is still there.

Sometimes I wish NO weren't my favorite band, as their laziness and whining really do get on my nerves.

There is no market, at least not like there used to be. The money is in playing live and there'll be no JD shows any time soon.

The JD archive has been packaged and sold now, nothing really left except rehashes and the odd track like 'Pictures'.

What Hooky seems to have been asked about is releasing his new version of 'Pictures' (rather than the old rehearsal), and his answer is it's not worth the effort. He'll spend loads on recording it then get about £50 back from selling it on iTunes, in this wonderful new singles market where the distributor (Apple) keep all the money. That is what I mean when I say there's no market for singles, there's no money for the artist anymore, just for Apple.

Quote ""There is no market, at least not like there used to be. The money is in playing live and there'll be no JD shows any time soon.

The JD archive has been packaged and sold now, nothing really left except rehashes and the odd track like 'Pictures'.

What Hooky seems to have been asked about is releasing his new version of 'Pictures' (rather than the old rehearsal), and his answer is it's not worth the effort. He'll spend loads on recording it then get about £50 back from selling it on iTunes, in this wonderful new singles market where the distributor (Apple) keep all the money. That is what I mean when I say there's no market for singles, there's no money for the artist anymore, just for Apple"".

I disagree. The JD archive has not been packaged and sold now; there is more material that has never been released. Hooky has all kinds of rarities that he is sitting on; including gigs from 1977 and 1978, and more rehearsal material And what about those complete takes of "In A Lonely Place"? JD could release all kinds a rarities on a website, of their making, and not have to pay Apple a thing. The fan would log onto the website, pay their money and download the rarities. I think "50 Pound Note" is right, it seems the band doesn't want to be bothered with it. The sad thing is, there is market! The true fans would buy these rarities. But since the band is doing nothing, the rarities that do slip through the cracks are being uploaded onto blog.spots and shared for free; when they could of been sold for a profit..............

It's not as if the official releases are being shared on blog.spots. You don't come across "Unknown Pleasures", "Closer", "Preston" "Les Bains Douches","The complete BBC Recordings" and "Still" avilable for download; so if they made these rarities an official release and released them on a website, people would be forced to buy them. And of coruse, some people would buy them and share them with their friends, and it's better then giving them away for free, right????????????????

Really, why bother releasing anything then. For fun. For promotion. For honoring the past. For the heck of it. Whatever, it's his time.

Probably why he has not been in hurry to release stuff, feels like he is just giving it away. But then back when they self released their first EP over 30 years ago, they didn't think they would make money from it either.

TheVisitors wrote:

You don't come across "Unknown Pleasures", "Closer", "Preston" "Les Bains Douches","The complete BBC Recordings" and "Still" avilable for download

Are you sure?

what would ian say :evil:

I stand corrected. That's fucking sad, that even the box-set is avilable as a free download............

BillONdollar wrote: what would ian say :evil:

"For feck's sake, do shut up"

leave joy divisoin songs as they should be no need to be release now after many years. people buy them but not so many time to say goodbyes so long after.

Do you know looking at that "Ian" picture for all these years never realised that its peter hook in the background

pictures in my.............

Remember the two "new" Beatles songs that came out years ago, with the remaining members playing over a Lennon vocal track?

Yeah. Let it rest.

It really is a serious debate regarding the release of material from the JD vault that is of substandard quality. Now, I collect bootlegs and appreciate the obscure tracks and crappy live recordings, but a majority of fans don't. Another collection of officially released JD live/rehearsals type of CD, honestly is only going to harm their reputation and be seen as penny pinching, scraping the barrel.

The solution? A lot of bands do very well selling exclusive products direct from their website/fan club to the fans who are intersting in buying it. Sure, 10 mintues after the first person has it, it's up on file sharing blogs etc on the net. This is the way of the music World now, cannot be avoided. Selling a book for 600 quid is not the right way to make a dollar, when everyone has the book already!

i dont THINK anyone has actually mentioned which song ? what we all (the real j.d fans) is when is in a lonely place coming out in all its superior quality glory ? i know it exists cus ive got a 30 sec clip of it at reduced quality. if its for sale whats the price? try youtube joy division 'in a lonely place contains missing verse'.

casio smith wrote: i dont THINK anyone has actually mentioned which song ? what we all (the real j.d fans) is when is in a lonely place coming out in all its superior quality glory ? i know it exists cus ive got a 30 sec clip of it at reduced quality. if its for sale whats the price? try youtube joy division 'in a lonely place contains missing verse'.

casio smith wrote: i dont THINK anyone has actually mentioned which song ? what we all (the real j.d fans) is when is in a lonely place coming out in all its superior quality glory ? i know it exists cus ive got a 30 sec clip of it at reduced quality. if its for sale whats the price? try youtube joy division 'in a lonely place contains missing verse'.

Are you kidding mate? Did you read the article? It's a rare Joy Division song called Pictures In My Mind. By the way mate, we already know about the In A Lonely Place sample, it was posted here months ago. We KNOW a full version of In A Lonely Place exsits; now that I think of it, there is suppose to be 5 full versions. This is old news from late last year...

yes Darkman (now TheVisitors), mainly thanks to you

johnny james wrote: yes Darkman (now TheVisitors), mainly thanks to you

I wish I was Darkman, because I would have those Rehearsal takes. But I don't, but I did read all about those takes last year.