Martin Hannett

well, i'm split on this. Closer has a great sound, while some of the other tracks seem marred or poorly mixed. even Atmosphere has always seemed marred in production and mix. These Days sounds crappy, Unknown Pleasure seems full of bizarre sounding drum and bass experiments that have not held up very well over the years. while that said, Love Will Tear Us Apart (2nd version) sounds fantastic, Closer is full of great moments, brilliant.

Then with New Order, Everything's Gone Green sounds great, but Movement seems marred, hardly brings the best out of the songs.

I think he's helped New Order, but that it was good that their collaboration ended before PCL.

I don't think any of us would have heard of them without Hannett.

what a stupid question... Atmosphere is Martin Hannett.

yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah....

fucks sake grrrrrrrrrr

JD owed a lot to martin cuz of his vision and the way he could influence them into doing more atmospheric and eerie stuff that JD is known for. who knows, the guys in JD were still young, so they probably had to have someone take control a bit.

but by the time new order came around, i think they had a different vision of what they wanted their band to be and had enough experience to trust their own judgement a bit more. it's just speculation...but i think it worked both ways.

Originally posted by shaun carruthers yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah....fucks sake grrrrrrrrrr

Is this the only thing you can say?

actually I don't understand the blah blah blah stuff either...

come on then shaun explain yourself?

There are times to be creative in the studio, and times to be traditional. A majority of the time Hannett and JD/NO got it right, but there are a few instances of going overboard. But if Hannett did not allow/push the bands to stretch their sound, where would they have ended up? just another brit pop band of the 80's? Possibly, but luckily we will never have to know.

Originally posted by Tout est devenu vert > Originally posted by shaun carruthers> yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah....> > fucks sake grrrrrrrrrr

Is this the only thing you can say?

He's like Muttley, ain't he?

Anyway, back on topic, yeah a lot of the distictive sound of JD was due to Hannett's input. While some of Closer can sound indistinct and murky (I'm mainly thinking AE here) that was cos they recorded some of it being played back through the studio monitors for a more "live" sounding result. I think he held back NO though, and IIRC Hannet himself felt all along that NO were better off producing themselves. So I picked the "sit on the fence" option.

PS: Yer getting near 1000 here EGG...!!!

Originally posted by tooth ache actually I don't understand the blah blah blah stuff either...come on then shaun explain yourself?

OK, here's the explanation of Mr. Carruthers:

Try here and here and finally here

He did a better job producing JD's Closer than he did New Order's first album Movement. That one was a bit too flat in my opinion.

I also have "Bummed" by Happy Mondays which he also produced, but I heard a rumour that he tends to record the drum kits in toilet cubicles - hence all the reverb. Is this true?

I hope not...I loved "Bummed" until you said that.

i say he helped them greatly , yes some of their experimental stuff didnt turn out so good, but they learned how to be efficient in the studio and it helped them in years to come and in some ways he taught them to refuse to be like everybody else and to look at things from different angles

Compare the lack of quality of the production for the unreleased RCA album, including tracks such as "Transmission", "Novelty" and "Shadowplay" with the later re-recorded versions under the production and direction of Martin Hannett. Bear in mind that these recordings were barely a year apart. I admit that the songs might also sound better as the band got better musically, but I think that MH deserves maximum credit for his contribution.

Then also compare the RCA album with A Factory Sample, although obviously the songs themselves were different, "Digital" and "Glass" which were recorded and produced by Hannett six months after the RCA sessions have a far superior sound quality.

In my opinion Martin Hannett was crucial to the success of Joy Division, as he introduced the band to synths, which they had previously rejected a year earlier when they thought they were (just) a punk band. Had he not done this JD could have fallen by the wayside by the end of 1979, and its doubtful whether New Order would ever have existed.

As regards his work with New Order, both sides of their first two singles, and the extended "Everything's Gone Green" are absolutely fantastic songs with an equally excellent production.

Apparantly stories abound from the group that Martin made Bernard sing "Procession" or "Chosen Time" or whichever version of the story you've heard, MANY times before he was happy with it. This was in the days when Mr Sumner wasn't so much of a diva concerning his singing voice.

The major disappointment for me concerning "Movement" is that Peter Hook's voice is so poor on "Dreams Never End", now this is because either;

Peter can't sing; or

Peter deliberately sang that badly to avoid comparison with Ian; or

Bernard didn't want to sing the first track on the album.

Its not down to Hannett as had the band or Factory been unhappy with the production on the album or any one song on it, they could have rerecorded it (like "Ceremony"). I think Hannett gets wrongly accused regarding "Movement". The album is not an easy going one, it never was going to be in the circumstances but it is an important document as it marks most of the songs written in the immediate aftermath of Ian's death.

For me though Hannets work with New Order in 1981 was when the band were at their consistent peak, although there were other returns to form in the intervening 20 years.

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I don´t know,but every band he has woked with had the drums mixed in the same style.If you hear the durutti column´s albums like LC,you`ll realize It souds just like joy division.

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Originally posted by Dave_Barrie He did a better job producing JD's Closer than he did New Order's first album Movement. That one was a bit too flat in my opinion.I also have "Bummed" by Happy Mondays which he also produced, but I heard a rumour that he tends to record the drum kits in toilet cubicles - hence all the reverb. Is this true?

I thought I heard that about Steve Albini. I dunno, all the talk about production goes over my head. What exactly does a producer do thats distinct from mixing? I ticked the third option to sound as if I knew about this stuff, but really I haven't a clue. Except even I can tell there's something not quite right about Republic (what have you done with Hooky!)

I don´t know,but every band he has worked with had the drums mixed in the same way.If you hear a durutti column album like LC,you`ll realize It sounds just like joy division

a pretty good martin hannett story was told by the new fast automatic daffodils - when they worked with him he'd become that fat that when he leaned over the mixing desk his gut pushed all the faders etc up in the shape of his stomach. Apparantly rather than admit he's fucked up he said he'd just invented the 'martin hannett sound curve'!!

top man.

on the subject of the thread if it wasn't for him then unknown pleasures would have been a rock album. can't imagine it any other way.

404 error wrote "What exactly does a producer do thats distinct from mixing?"

An awful lot. It does depend on the project and the producer's style and what the artist wants, but typically it is along these lines:

1. listening to pre production demos and identifying problems and assigning 'homework' to the band to fix problems before recording starts, also suggesting changes to the arrangements, more radical rewrites, or cutting songs altogether may happen at this point
2. when basic tracks are recorded, the producer has the final say in everything regarding equipment selection (instruments and amps, mics, mic preamps, etc), microphone placement, which is critical, and other technical matters related to how many tracks are to be recorded and in what order, etc
3. during the recording, the producer will usually call the shots as to whether a take is good enough to keep in the 'keeper' or 'maybe' category and sort of coach the whole group along, like 'that was great but the bass slows down in the second verse, and we need less low end in the guitar'
4. the producer is responsible for the various settings as the tracks are recorded; usually an engineer is actually rolling the tape or running the software while the producer takes care of the signal levels for everything that is being recorded (very important); some engineers take care of that instead of the producer though. An assistant takes care of labeling everything and documenting what was done in case a redo is needed later
5. the producer does more of the same kind of thing as overdubs are completed on single instruments or vocal tracks, and might decide which parts need overdubs or what additional sounds or parts need to be added after listening to the basic tracks and trying a rough mix
6. effects and processing of various kinds may take place before mixing; Hannett did a lot of stuff like making multiple copies of drum tracks and sending them through different effects, back into other, new tracks which would be the only ones to be used in the final mix; at this point, Ian's voice would have been processed heavily, with tape speed change and reverb and probably EQ, which would have taken time to get right; also small problems like little extraneous noises in individual tracks are taken care of
7. the final mix is done, which can take a long time; not only are the individual tracks from the tape passed through faders to control volume, but also effects (compression, EQ, reverb, delays, etc) are added both to individual tracks and to the whole mix; edits are made, using a razor blade on the actual working 2 track master tape, until each song is finished; then the complete album master (well, usually two, one for each side of the LP in those days) is compiled on a 2 track tape. The producer has input on the order of songs for the album (along with the band) and usually does the fade ins and outs.

the above would mainly apply to UP and the singles other than Atmosphere and LWTUA on the technical matters; Atmosphere and IIRC Closer were done on an early generation of digital recorders, so there would have been no tape to splice and a more limited number of tracks due to the limitations of the Sony PCM machines. I'd love to see the original working 24 and 2 track master tapes for Unknown Pleasures just to see how many splices there are. From the sound of it, there must have been at least a couple hundred cuts.

On UP Martin added the analog synth and weird sound effects, for example the sounds at the beginning of 'New Dawn Fades' and the end of 'I Remember Nothing'. The 'guitar' on Candidate is also really more Martin than Barney because it is so heavily processed.

Hannett's drum sounds are legendary and widely admired and imitated in the industry to this day. He probably spent about as much time on them as he did on everything else in the pre mix editing/processing stage.

Ok, thanks to telly (may I call you telly?) for the explanation. While I'm on the subject of my crass ignorance, what exactly is an 'arrangement' (in this context)?

When Movement was recorded, it was time to radically move on to something new because of Ian's death, and I don't think Martin handled the situation well. Apart from that, he did miracles.

The arrangement is basically the way the individual parts are designed so that they add up to the complete song, and the structure of the song, which generally means the order in which the various sections of the song are played for the final version that you are working toward. You might change an arrangement by adding, taking away or changing a part, an instrument playing that part, or rearranging the order of section or adding or taking away a section.

Martins jd stuff is great but lost it with MOVEMENT .He was back to form on the Happy mondays BUMMED. R.I.P

Why with Movement? It's not him. Listen to the 1981 Peel sessions. There's another sound producer. Would it be better? But all Joy Division tracks are superb, thanks to Hannett.

Martin Hannett is the man! Everything he put his hands sounded good for me. Joy Division, New Order, Happy Mondays, Stone Roses, Section 25, etc.: when he produced these bands, those recordings are very better. His "hobbled" way of mixing (mainly the drums) is remarkable and unconfoundable! About Section 25 w/ Hannett, some people used to say that he was repeating, in "Always Now", the "Joy Division formula". They really don't know that formula is about his own person, not along the bands he produced. He was great, and, so, I think Joy Division helped him, allowing his production, while he helped them, making them sound brilliant!

Martin Hannett was absolutely fucking essential to the JD/NO sound (and I'm really pissed off that my much longer post was destroyed! )

i agree, Martin Hannet was very much essential to the success of Joy Division. where the band was messy and umm... ametuerish in stage, Martin hones their strenghts and strengthens their weaknesses. there's no doubt that Peter hook is an excellent bassist, and Stephen Morris is a great drummer, and both elements are emphasized on "Unknown Pleasures." he also introduces the synth to the band, not as a main instrument but as something that can successfully add another element to their sound. However, if you listen to a lot of Martin Hannet's production, you can tell he follows a basic formula; the way he mixes the drums. they all have that sparse, slightly echoed reverb to it. Happy Monday's "Bummed" has it, and so does the Hannet produced version of Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark's "Electricity," which I maintain is the best version of the song, no matter how unhappy Andy McCluskey and Paul Humphreys may feel with the end result.

Perhaps New Order wanted to start something new after 1981. I don't think Martin would've been very happy with the harsh drum sounds of "Temptation" and "Hurt." that said, "Everything's Gone Green" and "Procession" has some of the best production i've heard, and "Movement" remains one of the cleanest and warmest sounding albums in New Order's catalog.

cheers.

Just been listening to the 81 Peel sesh. I think the versions from that are probably more honest sounding.

No-one's mentioned Jilted John yet, have they?

I think he was more positive than negative, great for Joy Division but for Movement not so great. Yes it was difficult and all the rest, but as I read once in an interview that Bernard and Hooky wanted it more rockier while Martin went for the more goth wimp out, in their words.

Cheers ALEX

while Movement is worth the effort, you must admit that most listeners are very disappointed and underwhelmed by Movement on first listen... and Movement was made following the incredible Closer and the beautiful singles Ceremony and LWTUA, and made by basically the same group of people on either side of the studio, in their prime...

Martin Hannet was an eccentric and a genius and everyone around at the time said he transformed Joy Division from a meandering bunch of scallies to this powerhouse full of laser guided intentionality and purpose. Plus his work on Bummed is fantastic, a flawed classic.

I wish he would have produced a few more name bands. U2 would have been a more interesting band for instance. Smiths? Imagine him tackling Metallica? It boggles the mind.

Everything I'm doing these days aspires to the Martin Hannett sound.

"This is Nazi Punks fuk off, over-produced by Martin Hannett take 4" - fantastic

Sismundi - Hannett did indeed produce U2, on one single early on.

Yeah, I've heard that. Pedantics of the world unite and take over.

Sorry, that came over very condescending, but your pedantics missed my wider point...I just meant produced them in a real way. Take them somewhere new like he did with JD. I can't remember the details surounding U2 and Hannett, but I seem to recall something prevented them working together in a real way (drugs, other commitments?). Then U2 became huge and Edge established his sound et voila.

I cannot imagine Unknown Pleasures sounding one note differently. The reason it made such an impact was precisely because it sounded like nothing else at that time. If it had the same sound as the earlier, rockier JD tracks, it wouldn't have been the groundbreaking album that it is. With regards to Movement, it might sound quite primitive in comparison to the other NO albums, but to me it has that haunting, metallic, lost sound of a band in an intense, uncertain headspace. Sure, it doesn't have the classic singles and the uplifting, dancey stuff of later years, but to me it's their most honest album and it just speaks to something inside me.

Hannett was a rubbish producer. Joy Division weren`t that good, the Happy Mondays were pants, & 'Movement' was, on the whole, awful

Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes Hannett was a rubbish producer. Joy Division weren`t that good, the Happy Mondays were pants, & 'Movement' was, on the whole, awful

don't think I've seen you make a positive comment yet anywhere ... apart from the fact that you rate Vietnam very highly. You seem to be on a different wavelength to most of us.

Originally posted by Geri > Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes> Hannett was a rubbish producer. Joy Division weren`t that good, the Happy Mondays were pants, & 'Movement' was, on the whole, awful

don't think I've seen you make a positive comment yet anywhere ... apart from the fact that you rate Vietnam very highly. You seem to be on a different wavelength to most of us.

Or perhaps someone in disguise!Your having a laugh aren't you MISTER or MISSES?:D

Originally posted by Geri

---

don't think I've seen you make a positive comment yet anywhere ... apart from the fact that you rate Vietnam very highly. You seem to be on a different wavelength to most of us.

Its just my opinion, sorry if you dont concur, but tough titty! Noones gonna give you a hard time just cos you dont like 'Vietnam', so get off my case: if I think Hannett was a rubbish producer, then that`s my choice & my business.

If you care to search out most of my other posts here, youll find I have PLENTY of positive comments to make about my favourite band New Order & other related issues. Or cant you be arsed?...

Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes > Originally posted by Geri> > >

don't think I've seen you make a positive comment yet anywhere ... apart from the fact that you rate Vietnam very highly. You seem to be on a different wavelength to most of us.

Its just my opinion, sorry if you dont concur, but tough titty! Noones gonna give you a hard time just cos you dont like 'Vietnam', so get off my case: if I think Hannett was a rubbish producer, then that`s my choice & my business.

If you care to search out most of my other posts here, youll find I have PLENTY of positive comments to make about my favourite band New Order & other related issues. Or cant you be arsed?...

Sorry but I disagree with you too.

Martin rubbish ?

Stupid comment really.

Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes If you care to search out most of my other posts here, youll find I have PLENTY of positive comments to make about my favourite band New Order & other related issues. Or cant you be arsed?..

I have taken the time to check you out, and sorry, can't agree with the use of PLENTY ......

You dont have to apologise for disagreeing with me. If everyone in the world thought the same, itd be a boring planet!

I have my opinion, you have yours. Let`s just agree to differ, yes?

Originally posted by Geri > > > I have taken the time to check you out, and sorry, can't agree with the use of PLENTY ......

You REALLY spent time just hunting out my past messages? My my, I`m flattered!

But what a boring thing to do! D'oh!

I think Martin Hannett was the 5th member of the band.

Originally posted by Carlos I think Martin Hannett was the 5th member of the band.

Hi Carlos

Long time we don´t talk each other.

I agree with you.

Originally posted by Carlos I think Martin Hannett was the 5th member of the band.

Saying that is a cliche derived from people in the 1960s calling George Martin the "5th Beatle". THAT is more likely a case than Hannett being the 5th New Order member, as at least George Martin produced nearly all of the Fab Fours recordings. Hannett only produced 'Movement' for New Order, & on the merits of that, he doesnt deserve the much-bandied "5th Member" tag.

Two people who MIGHT deserve it, tho`: the late, great Rob Gretton & Peter Saville

Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes > Originally posted by Carlos> I think Martin Hannett was the 5th member of the band.

Saying that is a cliche derived from people in the 1960s calling George Martin the "5th Beatle". THAT is more likely a case than Hannett being the 5th New Order member, as at least George Martin produced nearly all of the Fab Fours recordings. Hannett only produced 'Movement' for New Order, & on the merits of that, he doesnt deserve the much-bandied "5th Member" tag.

Two people who MIGHT deserve it, tho`: the late, great Rob Gretton & Peter Saville

I agree that Gretton might deserve the "5th New Order member" more than Hannett, but if anything Hannett put them on the path they needed to go. Without him, Joy Division would've been just another punk band trying to ape the Pistols with a little Ziggy-era Bowie thrown in for good measure. (The scene where Ian says he hates Bowie in 24HPP always rung untrue for me, considering his earlier fandom. I suppose it was trying to show the divide between the old and the new, but Bowie had a big influence on JD's sound).

I think really you can't talk about Hannett's importance to the band without talking about Gretton, Saville, Erasmus, and (yes, really) Wilson. Without those five to back up the band and others on the Factory label, there would be no Manchester music scene, plain and simple.

I agree that Gretton might deserve the "5th New Order member" more than Hannett, but if anything Hannett put them on the path they needed to go. Without him, Joy Division would've been just another punk band trying to ape the Pistols with a little Ziggy-era Bowie thrown in for good measure. (The scene where Ian says he hates Bowie in 24HPP always rung untrue for me, considering his earlier fandom. I suppose it was trying to show the divide between the old and the new, but Bowie had a big influence on JD's sound).

I think really you can't talk about Hannett's importance to the band without talking about Gretton, Saville, Erasmus, and (yes, really) Wilson. Without those five to back up the band and others on the Factory label, there would be no Manchester music scene, plain and simple.

Too right! THIS guy talks sense

Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes

I agree that Gretton might deserve the "5th New Order member" more than Hannett, but if anything Hannett put them on the path they needed to go. Without him, Joy Division would've been just another punk band trying to ape the Pistols with a little Ziggy-era Bowie thrown in for good measure. (The scene where Ian says he hates Bowie in 24HPP always rung untrue for me, considering his earlier fandom. I suppose it was trying to show the divide between the old and the new, but Bowie had a big influence on JD's sound).

I think really you can't talk about Hannett's importance to the band without talking about Gretton, Saville, Erasmus, and (yes, really) Wilson. Without those five to back up the band and others on the Factory label, there would be no Manchester music scene, plain and simple.

Too right! THIS guy talks sense

Me? Make sense? That's unpossible!

Taboo, you`re too hard on yourself!

Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes > Originally posted by Geri> > > > > > > > I have taken the time to check you out, and sorry, can't agree with the use of PLENTY ......>

You REALLY spent time just hunting out my past messages? My my, I`m flattered!

But what a boring thing to do! D'oh!

I like a challenge now and then. It was boring, yes, 'cos you really haven't got much to say. However, a good bottle of wine and some JD made it bearable.

Originally posted by Taboo # 7 > Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes> > > > Originally posted by Carlos> > I think Martin Hannett was the 5th member of the band.>

Saying that is a cliche derived from people in the 1960s calling George Martin the "5th Beatle". THAT is more likely a case than Hannett being the 5th New Order member, as at least George Martin produced nearly all of the Fab Fours recordings. Hannett only produced 'Movement' for New Order, & on the merits of that, he doesnt deserve the much-bandied "5th Member" tag.

Two people who MIGHT deserve it, tho`: the late, great Rob Gretton & Peter Saville

I agree that Gretton might deserve the "5th New Order member" more than Hannett, but if anything Hannett put them on the path they needed to go. Without him, Joy Division would've been just another punk band trying to ape the Pistols with a little Ziggy-era Bowie thrown in for good measure. (The scene where Ian says he hates Bowie in 24HPP always rung untrue for me, considering his earlier fandom. I suppose it was trying to show the divide between the old and the new, but Bowie had a big influence on JD's sound).

I think really you can't talk about Hannett's importance to the band without talking about Gretton, Saville, Erasmus, and (yes, really) Wilson. Without those five to back up the band and others on the Factory label, there would be no Manchester music scene, plain and simple.

Let´s not confound production with management

Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart > Originally posted by Taboo # 7> > > > Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes> > > > > > > Originally posted by Carlos> > > I think Martin Hannett was the 5th member of the band.> > >

Saying that is a cliche derived from people in the 1960s calling George Martin the "5th Beatle". THAT is more likely a case than Hannett being the 5th New Order member, as at least George Martin produced nearly all of the Fab Fours recordings. Hannett only produced 'Movement' for New Order, & on the merits of that, he doesnt deserve the much-bandied "5th Member" tag.

Two people who MIGHT deserve it, tho`: the late, great Rob Gretton & Peter Saville

I agree that Gretton might deserve the "5th New Order member" more than Hannett, but if anything Hannett put them on the path they needed to go. Without him, Joy Division would've been just another punk band trying to ape the Pistols with a little Ziggy-era Bowie thrown in for good measure. (The scene where Ian says he hates Bowie in 24HPP always rung untrue for me, considering his earlier fandom. I suppose it was trying to show the divide between the old and the new, but Bowie had a big influence on JD's sound).

I think really you can't talk about Hannett's importance to the band without talking about Gretton, Saville, Erasmus, and (yes, really) Wilson. Without those five to back up the band and others on the Factory label, there would be no Manchester music scene, plain and simple.

Let´s not confound production with management

Noones confusing management & production, but Gretton was around most of Joy Divsion/New Order`s career until his untimely death. Hannett was an over-rated smackhead who rightly got his marching orders after the foul-up that is "Movement'.

To even suggest that Hannett comes even close to being as important to N.O as the legendary Rob Gretton is just being downright disrespectful to the man who lived & breathed the band he managed every day

Hannett was the Loony Wizzard of Sound, but most things he touched where like New Order sang: touched by the hand of God. Remember Basement 5 and The Buzzcocks. He made punk sounded deep by the turn of a knob, it seems. His production renders so much depth and space to the music... Very sad he died in such sorrowful circumstances. Dope really sucks sometimes!

Hannett I believe was a real guiding light for Joy Division, because he brought refined elements out of a rough-edged, inexperienced band. This translated in their ability to maintain a direction of self which reflected in their self-production of PCL, a clear groundbreaking album of the '80s.

Martin was basically the fith member of Joy Division, his work on "Closer" makes it sound like it was recorded yesterday.

I think the only issue with the production of Movement is that of the vocals. The band had its voice ripped out and replaced by those that never wanted to sing. No one was prepared. Instrumentally, NO was in top form, especially Steve. They were also experimenting, as usual. But the vocals were going to be the thing that everyone was was going to scrutinize. And in the shadow of one of the most dominating and distinct voices this effort was going to be rough. They were not ready but it had to be done. And a great sigh of relief when it was over. Movement is, nonetheless, a great album.