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The question was asked to the french forum, and I felt like it should have been posted here too.
On 5 11, between the 3rd and 4th minute of Regret, you can clearly see Peter Hook going to the left side of the stage, take off his bass, doesn't touch it, but the bass is still playing....
Playback? Post production?
Anyone can tell us what is all this 
Originally posted by Spotnick The question was asked to the french forum, and I felt like it should have been posted here too.On 5 11, between the 3rd and 4th minute of Regret, you can clearly see Peter Hook going to the left side of the stage, take off his bass, doesn't touch it, but the bass is still playing....
Playback? Post production?
Anyone can tell us what is all this
I'm probably the only one on this forum who's never been fortunate enough to attend a live NO gig, but I'd be pretty dissapointed if that were true. I have pumped full of drugs on dvd and they appear to be playing live and the sound on most songs sound nowhere near their studio counterparts so yeah I think they do(most of the time)
It's no surprise for me. I remember that Barney got a broken string in his guitar when they were playing "Regret" in the second night at Brixton last year. A roadie rushed to the stage to replace his Gibson SG guitar for a different one, with no interruption in the guitar sound! Phil was playing a guitar too, but it was very strange. Everything sounds perfect in the audience recording of this song as well.
It was like when one those guys from Milli Vanilli dropped his microphone on the stage and the vocals keep coming from the speakers. Oh God, what the hell am I doing? Comparing New Order to Milli Vanilli! 
FourFortyFive has denied the use of "taped" recordings at NewOrder shows but i suspect they do use about 25% preprogrammed, "taped" music. I don't necessarily think it's bad although the metronome sound in the beginning of Regret is a little annoying.
Well, they have done it (said many people) for the Manchester 1998 Commonwealth Games promotion...
But sure Barney is live.. as for the rest, well, why would they do that!! would be stupid to do it..
Let's hope that JS can give us some calming words on this topic.
NO has always been so very against "miming/lip-synching." We all know that in the 80's their setlists varied from night to night without regard to the resulting consequences on the quality of the performance (which is one of the many things that makes them so great). However, they now seem to care about delivering a quality performance with a certain degree of professionalism. The last thing I want to find out is that their desire for perfection in concert has lead them down that dark path of miming to pre-recorded tracks. To find this to be the case would be such a let down. I hate that we even have to discuss/debate the subject.
Well, we have proofs that they don't do this when they started Rock The Shack in Glasgow (I think) and stopped suddenly because Bernard tought it was too hard..
I don't know what to think actually ;)
But on the other hand.. TOTP apperances.. 
Originally posted by Spotnick Well, we have proofs that they don't do this when they started Rock The Shack in Glasgow (I think) and stopped suddenly because Bernard tought it was too hard..I don't know what to think actually ;)But on the other hand.. TOTP apperances..
you'll notice on that recording, they abruptly stop RTS and Barney calls for Blue Monday to start and seconds later the preprogrammed kick drums start (i don't have a problem with the programmed drums on BM just making a point)...if the recording proves anything, it's that playing a song that doesn't have it's foundation in preprogrammed drums + sequences is more difficult than something that does ...BLT, TF, BM, Tempt., Regret, YSF...actually i think every song may feature a bit of prerecorded music. It may be sequences running off a ProTools set up or it could be DAT or something else but there is definitely a concrete structure that each song strictly adheres to on the Get Ready tour recordings
it´s difficult because they always kind of fought against mimming or taping. I remember one of the things that made me like new order was that they didn´t sound like erasure or depeche mode live. I always thought "good, dance music done by real people, they´re actually PLAYING their instruments". over the years I started to feel they were using too much "technology" to cover their own (and fantastic) mistakes. when I first listened to reading 1993 I thought "it sounds just like the record, what a crap". I guess they found out they could do it and get away with it. maybe stephen hague had to do with it or even quincy jones and his "vision of the music market" and the impossibility of playing bad gigs when you perform, say, in montreaux jazz festival.... maybe. and I don´t buy the "there´s so much going on in every song that is necessary" excuse. because TPK might be the most "full" song in terms of sounds, textures, rythms, instruments they probably ever did. and you listen to it live and it just doesn´t sound like taped. even though 17 years have passed since that song and the technology got better and better over the years. what I mean is there were rumours about the rolling stones or U2 taping for the shows. because they sound so damn perfect that makes you doubt. maybe this is the case too. I don´t know that much of live sound technology. what I do know is that all that tachnology is making the shows pretty bored and predictable. and that´s a shame...
Parts of Regret and 60mph are definitely pre-done. You can tell that not all of it is though by the mistakes, particularly in 60mph !
Of course NewOrder do play live, BUT they use some pre-recorded sequencers, drumsamples and stuff on nearly every track (except maybe on Ceremony, Atmosphere, She's Lost Control). And i also think this isn't a big secret. the problem with the 511-DVD is, i think that they did some post-production on the live-recording. i have an audience-recording of this gig and Hooky totally fucks up the beginning of "Atmosphere". On the DVD it's without any mistakes. i think they "corrected" some of the worst mistakes that weren't tolerable for a commercial release. there's another one on "Close Range" during a Hooky-solo. You can see him putting his hands off the bass, but the melody is still playing...
I think you've answered the question here Marco. Post-production. It also answers my questions as to how 60mph survived the quality control, as it was absolutely riddled with mistakes at Finsbury.
It's more a case of them enhancing the DVD sound than them pre-recording live performances - anyone who sees them live will appreciate this I'm sure.
Did anyone see Roger Waters perform the Wall live in Berlin in 1990? (I think it was broadcast all over the world). From a sound perspective the show was a mini disater with singers not being heard and all the rest. Should you see a video or DVD of that concert you find that the sound is perfect, meaning it had basically been dubbed. I presume this is what has happened with Hooky's bass at Finsbury, though I would have thought the producers could have shown the viewers some respect and cut the bass when he was obviously not playing it.
The band have mimed a few times now but up 'til the release of "Regret" it was almost unheard of - as for the live questions - Barneys guitar is live but there will be sequenced samples in use all over their live set...
i can understand that beats, loops and some ohters stuff is playback during live...but The Peter Hook's Bass Sound!!!! It's really a bad news!!!!
I have a confession... some of my cowbell parts were pre-recorded for the Homage night. I feel so ashamed.
When a concert is released there are almost always overdubs recorded to enhance the quality of the sound - none of Hooks basslines are samples with the possible exception of the "Thieves Like Us" (the low bouncing bassline at the start) which we're unlikely to see live again anyway...
As for Nics comments about Regret and Hooks bass line playing minus his touch - basically sounds like a very bad video edit by someone unfamiliar with the bands setup.
Just to make my earlier point clear - while they do use sequencers and samples the band do NOT use reel to reel or DAT tapes when playing live. This is something that Depeche do constantly and in the 80's, The Cocteau Twins relied entirely upon taped backing tracks when playing live. They even had to rewind tapes to perform encores - not good.
So the answer was.. post production :D
They should avoid this kind of things, it makes some people doubt.. ;)
I didn't notice it, but since it was asked in the french forum by someone, I translated the question here...!
When I watched the Sweden concert, which is unedited, you can see and hear their mistakes.
And I was front row at Vancouver and I watched Barney play guitar and it was real.
I'm sure 511 is just post production
Originally posted by Major Tarantino I have a confession... some of my cowbell parts were pre-recorded for the Homage night. I feel so ashamed.
You wanna sack the recorder then !
Originally posted by DoN They didnt have a choice if they performed live or not on TOTP at one time....
Not sure what point you're making here but where New Order were concerned, the decision to play live on Top of the Pops was theirs. They had already knocked back 2 chances to appear on the show prior to the release of Blue Monday as they were told that live performances were not an option. The shows producers finally caved in as there was no video for Blue Monday and the singles sales were such that taking a chance on New Orders live performance was worth the risk (?)
Originally posted by FourFortyFive > Originally posted by DoN> They didnt have a choice if they performed live or not on TOTP at one time....
Not sure what point you're making here but where New Order were concerned, the decision to play live on Top of the Pops was theirs. They had already knocked back 2 chances to appear on the show prior to the release of Blue Monday as they were told that live performances were not an option. The shows producers finally caved in as there was no video for Blue Monday and the singles sales were such that taking a chance on New Orders live performance was worth the risk (?)
Yea, thats right, I meant that the shows producers refused to let acts perform live at one stage.
I was unaware of the special circumstance for Blue Monday however. :)
But didn't they have a Blue Monday (83) video? It was in the video archives here: very early 80's, polarized shots of rockets, soldiers, intercut with cheesy computer graphics and video game screen shots....worked quite well actually 
You are referring to the Factory Shorts video that if I'm not very much mistaken contained clips from "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" (the fingers pointing to the map reference of Devils Tower which was used without permisson from the film makers) Stephen was experimenting with his video equipment at the time and I suspect that this was NOT regarded as a serious promotional video for the track - could be wrong of course.
Well, Here To Stay it's obvious.. but I don't thin Fine Time was pre-recorded...!!
Maybe the music is not real, but Barney is... for sure..
Anyways, anyone has that Here To Stay TOTP video in full? Kind of looks great... 
Originally posted by Spotnick Well, Here To Stay it's obvious.. but I don't thin Fine Time was pre-recorded...!!Maybe the music is not real, but Barney is... for sure..Anyways, anyone has that Here To Stay TOTP video in full? Kind of looks great...
Its on the video me and Shugz compiled which i belive he sent you.
Finishes painfully abruptly but worth it alone just to see how close Hooky gets to death when bashing them 'bluemonday' drums! 
Originally posted by Spotnick Maybe the music is not real, but Barney is... for sure
Everything except the low growly vocals were live - Barney mimed that bit - the rest of the band were playing live too.
This has always seemed like a hot debate in many of my earlier college courses in electronic music.
This one shmuck---who wasn't even in the class, but would hang out there, just because---commented that they should hire a musician to play every single keyboard part there was because he didn't think a machine should do it. Incidentally, it was a comment he made after I had a little presentation on modern music, and played many different samples of music including NO's "Liar" (from Republic, in case you didn't know). Then again, he was just one of those older wankers who thinks that a band shouldn't play on electronic or "artificial" instruments, just "traditional rock-and-roll" instruments. HELLO!!!! An electric guitar and an electric bass have wiring!
But back to the topic. With bands like NO, it's necessary to have some pre-programmed stuff. It adds to the sound. It would be extremely silly and complicated to have an individual musician playing out on all those repetitive sequences. Have you ever tried it? It gets tiring to play a simple arpeggiation over and over again.
Lip-synching, on the other hand, bugs the hell out of me. It's one thing when a popular band DANCES and sings at the same time, but even then...if they ARE a musical group, they should focus on their singing! It would suck if NO was doing that with some of their peformances, since they have gained the notoriety to really play their music live. I was kind of sad when I watched the stream of their "performance" of Temptation 98 at Commonwealth as well as their appearance on TOTP for "Here To Stay". Maybe those producers (i.e. London Records) who had them filmed for their performances just wanted to synch them up to the actual tracks themselves and that NO had no say in it...?
What takes the piss is when u see performances where the keyboard aint even plugged in!!!!!!!!!!
PSB were guilty of this quite a lot on TOTP
Well, even though I like a lot of the music that PSB have released, apparently they started the band more as a business venture and not a musical one! At least that's what I've heard. :(
Originally posted by M. Domingo Well, even though I like a lot of the music that PSB have released, apparently they started the band more as a business venture and not a musical one! At least that's what I've heard. :(
Can't agree with that at all, like most bands the reason they started a band was to make the kind of music that they wanted to hear. We're talking about a band who lost almost £1M on a tour because they wanted to put on an extravagant show and who have never given their music for advertising. They might not be everyones cup of tea but I don't think you can fault them for integrity or doing it for the love of the music maaaaan.
M. Domingo wrote : "HELLO!!!! An electric guitar and an electric bass have wiring!"
true, but they don't have MIDI ports or memory banks
"But back to the topic. With bands like NO, it's necessary to have some pre-programmed stuff. It adds to the sound. It would be extremely silly and complicated to have an individual musician playing out on all those repetitive sequences. Have you ever tried it? It gets tiring to play a simple arpeggiation over and over again."
I agree it makes sense for NO to use sequencers, but there is nothing 'silly' about having real musicians play parts. Actual live playing also 'adds to the sound', more so than a sequencer chewing away forever at a riff. I think NOs music would be better if they would get away from sequencers, at least for their studio recordings when they can try as many times as they like to get it right. Digital edits on their newer material have the same effect, like Hooky's melody on 'Vicious Streak', you can hear that it is the same recording pasted onto the song multiple times. If they would have recorded him playing the riff several different times with the subtle differences that go hand in hand with human effort, I think it would sound a lot better and the song would be more impressive (I like it but it sounds a bit like a demonstration of digital editing software). Personally I think sequencers and drum machines are partly to blame for NOs declining musical competence since they started using them heavily in '81-82.
