Special offer to the members of NewOrderOnline.com from Razormaid

Response from RAZORMAID... Makes me think twice.... I went ahead and opted for all of the cds, 5 for $47 (with shipping) but I wanted to give the Depeche Mode cd's away as gifts to my friends... Doesn't look like I have the option, unless I want to take a chance and go to jail?

I guess I have some time to think about it...

RAZORMAID WROTE::: You are solely responsible for this product. If it is duplicated, resold,auctioned or handled illegally in any way (including file sharing on the Internet), the electronic "watermark" which we have designated on each track of each disc made, will be traced back to you and you will be held legally responsible.

For the curious... compression and re-encodeing do not affect the "watermark",as we are literally removing "slices" of music which although can not be heard,but can be seen when downloading the track and viewing it through Sound Designer; matching the millisecond removal against what the ID# listed for tha removal point.

As you can imagine, this "watermarking" procedure is extremely time consuming,but 100% affective in pinpointing down the owner of the disc. For this reason,PLEASE be careful and do not leave it laying aroundwhere a friend could get their hands on it, without your knowledge. If you need ANY clarification abouthow the fingerprinting (watermark) technique can be legally used to prosecute you for misuse, it's better you ask now, then find out later.

Should any misuse arise, Razormaid Records will be forced to legally prosecute,if the record label who owns the rights, demands action be taken. This is inaccordance with the contracts we have signed and agreed to with the artists'record label, in order to produce and distribute this disc to registered members of Razormaid Productions.

Attached to this E-mail is the release form for all "watermarked" discs, which you will need to print out and mail it back to us, before any product can be shipped out to you. Sorry, no FAXes. We need the original copy you signed,legally. Don't forget to fill in everything it asks for, including the ID#, as it will be required before we can ship any product out to you. No ID# will be required for the other 3 discs listed on the order form, as they were originally produced, prior to the "watermarking" technique was created.

*** P.S. No credit cards will be debited until after the relase form arrives. If afer reading all of this, you decide you would rather not take part, please let us know. We're sorry for all mumbo jumbo, but we need to protect ourselves, and going through all of this is the only way that we can release this product. To date, 5 people have been arrested,3 Internationally and 2 in the USA, so please use caution after the disc arrives.

WOW, Im sorry that they have my credit card number now...

Read the response(s) I received from ONE QUESTION I had and you will be SHOCKED, just as I am...

I sent the following question, just because I wanted to know.

QUESTION FOR RAZORMAID: Joseph,

Thank you for the email!

I was hoping to give all of the Depeche Mode cds as GIFTS to my friends.. Is this out of the question?

Please let me know.

Thank you.

PEACE Steven

RESPONSE #1

Yes, absolutely out of the question.

Please... re-read that message VERY carefully. You and only you are responsible for any misuse of the "watermarked" discs. That means when your "good friend" loads them up to Kaaza or some other file sharing web site, we come arrest you, because YOU signed for them anbd agreed to being arrested if they were made available to anyone other than you..

Was this not made clear enough in that message?

We tried to convey the seriousness of what we would be forced to do in a situation like that, but obviously our message is not scary enough. We did not want it to sound too threatening, but if you did not understand that you would be arrested not your friend, then maybe we need to reword it. We were going to actually list the 5 people we had arrested in the last 16 months, when 3 individuals tried to upload it to several "file exchange" web sites and 2 others tried to sell their copies on Ebay. We were considering even listing their arrest so that people could check it out to prove we were telling the truth, but that seemed to scary to put in a, "Hi - hey how's it going - welcome to Razormaid" letter.

Would that help if we listed that info too?

Let me know, because we want to make sure the working is such that no one will do something that they will ultimately be responsible for.

Let your friend buy it if he wants them and then he will be responsible for the legal ramifications.

jw

RESPONSE #2

After speaking to Joseph just now, we have decided to pull your order and cancel your request, based on the information that you gave us. We are not punishing you, it's just that the subscribers in Florida have caused us more grief, than all the other US States and Countries around the world - combined.

For some reason, the people in Florida feel that they are not obliged to our rules and statements they are forced to sign, costing us thousands of $$ in lawyer fees, to help them understand, when we have them arrested. In 18 years of operating, we have had 11 people in Florida alone - arrested for bootlegging and other criminal misuse of Razormaid product.

Quite frankly, we do not need the headache and certainly don't want to wipe out or $1.87 profit for each New Order Fan Club order we get, just to arrest a few Florida people. It just isn't worth the risk or the loss. We're already releasing this nearly at our cost - seriously..

I appreciate your candid honestly, (although we're perplexed why you would want to risk going to jail for a friend - that logic escapes us), but your failure to comprehend what you were signing, was obviously following the same logic as past subscribers from Florida. Our subscribers in Floirda either can't read, won't read, or just think they are "above" the rules laid down by the record labels who make us sign contracts that state we will control each release, and the actions of the people that purchase them. This is not Hot Tracks or Ultimix. We actually DO get signatures from therecord labels that hold the rights of the artist and the signature of the artist as well, for each track we work on. We know most of these artist personally and meet with them at least once a year. We can't afford to just "release it" without a series of approvals.

Please consider this canceled at this time.

I'm very sorry, but their no guarantee that some day you get tired of your New Order discs and simply hand them to someone wolaking donw the street, or a "good friend",

Yale Patton Razormaid Productions Owner

Razormaid take themselves much too seriously. If their product was truly legitimate, the record labels wouldn't restrict their distribution to this extent.

I was wondering whether Mr. Patton realizes that the wording of his second response to Steven leaves him open to litigation on the basis of their not wanting to sell to Florida people just because they are from Florida.

"Our subscribers in Floirda (sic)either can't read, won't read, or just think they are "above" the rules laid down by the record labels"

I think Razormaid have proved once and for all that they are paranoid pricks.

A quick search on Kazaa just found 357 razormaid files, including 14 New Order & 24 Depeche Mode. I guess someone's in big trouble!

I didn't download any, of course.

why not?

This 'watermarking' business seems well over the top. Just out of curiousity, could such a thing possibly be enforced? It sounds rather ludicrous to me. It would imply you'd have to gaurd your disk carefully for the rest of your life - don't let anyone borrow it or leave it alone with someone in case they rip mp3s or copy it, don't lose it or be burgled...

I'd be interested if it were easier to buy it from overseas, but as it is, forget it.

There's absolutely no way that they have access to master tapes when their product is so poor. Essentially, they re-edit, repeat, speed up or slow down existing parts of songs. The most impressive thing about Razormaid is that they've managed to survive for so long peddling this crap.

I received my discs in the mail today after picking them up at the post office. Each cd is housed in a platic PVC wallet (nice size). And I have just started to listen to the 1st CD. So far so good.

I have been impressed with it. I guess there are two perspectives to have.

1. I don't care about the watermarking, I plan to keep these CDs in my collection and have them buried with me when I die.
2. I don't want watermarking, because I wanted to put them on my computer/put it on CD-R for a friend/put it on Ebay and I don't want to sign a release form saying Razormaid can prosecute me, because I want to rip off someone.

It is all perspective. I happen to be in category 1. Many other are apparently too if over 75 people have ordered the discs from Razormaid.....

I'm just saying that I'm happy with what I got and didn't care with the upfront means they went through to protect themselves.

Hi i recieve this email form Razormaid (joseph Watt). I am a lot deceived. Someone is able to he help me? The shipping price now is very expensive for me: 16.85 USdollars before :5,00 US dolars.

I always buying a lot of cds of the USA and not have problem. I pay 5 - 7 us dollars for 2 or 3 cds.

De: Joseph watt Bloquear endereço Para: Mokrabe , Elázaro Data: 28/02/2003 15:19 Assunto: Registered mail fee

We have just returned from the bank with your package. We did not ship it because we need to have you resubmit your request for this, if you still want it, with the correct shipping charges applied.

In your country, they will not allow us to ship it with Global Priority, due to the high crime and theft in your country. Therefore, the package must be sent "Registered mail" = "Signature Required" + Proof of Delivery" + "Insured parcel".

This shipping fee comes to $16.85

If you still want this order, please submit it again and change the shipping rate to $16.85 and we can then charge your account and ship it out to you. Because of the "watermarking" on the disc, we can not allow the disc to fall into the hands of anyone, other than you, or you will be charged for any crime resulting from it's misuse, as you were assigned the ID# for the one disc.

This is why it must be sent in such a way that it is placed into your hands, guaranteed.

We will wait for the new Online order form from you with this change in the $$ amount and the new shipping charges added to that.

Thanks,

Joseph

Has anyone really been jailed for copying one of these Razormaid tracks? At the end of the day, a big record company like Warner, Sony, etc. rarely secure these things through the courts, so how can they?

Andy

I got my disc yesterday and it's actually kind of okay. No big deal though. But okay. The sound is way better than the ones i have been downloading on Kazaa. I am quite happy to have them.
Oh and I paid only 5 bucks for the shipping to France. Just so u know. No "signature required" for me.
The thing is... I was expecting something that would look more professionnal, you know? Not a coloured CD-R w/a sticker on it... I was kind of disappointed. BUT... Can someone explain me what a water mark is??? :)

Originally posted by Spotnick You'd have to compare with JC Pacaud to see if it's the exact same thing (or check the discography)..I'm expecting this:[/ That's what i got but there is a sticker on the CD... Deception.

I am quite ashamed of yourself. Afdter listening quite a few times to In Hindsight II, I actually do like this PK Razormaid Mix...

I contacted them regarding secure ordering. This is what they suggested...

You can go to this link and print out our Membership Form. This will supply us with the information requested, regarding payment info, etc. This is how we register our members so they can place order with us, without giving personal information online, ever. Here is that link:

http://www.razormaid.com/html/forms/uup/uupchoice.htm

When you mail in the Membership Form, please include a message that you are not a Razormaid member, but using the form to register for the New Order Special. That way we will not place you in our Data Base, by mistake. The reason I am telling you this is because the prices to our members for the same product is this:

In Hindsight II - $35.00 In Hindsight (Part 1) - $25.00 Reflections - $40.00 Refractions (part 1) - $25.00 Refractions (part 2) - $25.00

Quite a bit different, huh? So make sure you add that message when you submit the form to us. There are instructions on how to calculate the Membership ID#, which you will need to go ahead and do, for the form to be validated - that prints with the Membership Form.

In addition, there is a "release form" which is mandatory as well. If you tell me what you are purchasing, I can assign "watermark" ID#'s for those and send that so that both forms can be sent together, at the same time.

I got my cd's today. Its ok. I like the mixes on the first cd better, the second kinda sounds like a cut and paste job.

Since Razormaid is not a law enforcement organization, to have someone arrested, they would need to alert law enforcement agencies to the presence of copyrighted material online. It is up to the FBI (or INTERPOL or whatever) to conduct the investigation. Razormaid would have to submit mountains of computer data, and proof that their "watermarking" system is secure and reliable. Hate to think that they accidentally recorded several versions of someone else's sig, or that it was possible for some offender to remove the watermark on his CD and replace it with another's at random.

See, for a prosecution and an "arrest" to move forward, the prosecution would need to prove that the end user was the party responsible for the content's distribution. As others have mentioned, being burgled, is a potential no person can guard against. Just because Razormaid has you sign a contract doesn't mean that you can be JAILED at the first appearance of impropriety. Has anyone even considered that this contract can be ruled invalid on the grounds of "first sale"? You certainly are within your rights in the US to re-sell, lend, or THROW AWAY property you have legally purchased (although shrink-wrap licenses give the false impression this is not legal). Imagine if Microsoft imprisoned anyone who re-sold a legitimate copy of Windows... hell, this case argues that Microsoft JAIL any company found to have "let" their corporate serial number leak onto the internet.

Scare tactics at best or delusions of aegis at worst.

Basically if everyone who has bought these Razormaid mixes decided to copy them, encode them to MP3 or whatever, they wouldn't be able to do very much about it - almost makes it worth doing just to stick two fingers up at their attitude ! I have never come across such paranoia in the music business - makes you wonder as though they have something to hide !