Ceremony 12" question

hope this help you mate

Donovan brought me a copy or the Green Sleeved Fac33. How did he know that was number one on my wants list? It sounds so good on vinyl. Absolutely beautiful - Both Sides! I feel like my life is more complete now.

Thanks DoN!

Originally posted by almanso > Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart hope this help you mate

thanks, julio! so the green one is the original and the white/blue is the reissue. that means the first one has the pre-Gillian take and the other one has the Gillian-in-the-band version. or there´re other combinations? But remember that the GILLIAN one was also put into the OTHER sleeve because they had too many of these printed at first.And to further complicate things the ORIGINAL can be found in both sleeves!The place of origin and groove size is DIFFERENT.Took me several years to get both versions in MINTY MINT condition. THE HOLY GRAIL

i have both versions but as i dont have a record player any more i can't listen to them & tell you which is which!

I bought the Green 12" and Cream 12" both in about 1985. It wasn't until a few years later that I realised the records were both the Cream/Gillian version. Bugger. Can't exactly go back with a receipt years later. I guess the Cream record in the green sleeve is worthless really. It's about time they put the Green pre-Gillian version on CD isn't it. Should have been on Retro.

Originally posted by Rocket Mick > Originally posted by almanso > Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart hope this help you mate

thanks, julio! so the green one is the original and the white/blue is the reissue. that means the first one has the pre-Gillian take and the other one has the Gillian-in-the-band version. or there´re other combinations?

.....And to further complicate things the ORIGINAL can be found in both sleeves!The place of origin and groove size is DIFFERENT......

....which is what I have *sigh* Guess I'll be on the lookout for the re-recorded 12" then.

The only thing that you can be absolutely sure about is that the 7" vinyl always has the original, pre-Gillian version!

The only other way (apart from the Groove notations and, at this point in time, I'm not sure which groove notation refers to which version - it certainly doesn't explain it very well on the Niagra discography ), is to time the record - 4:34 for the pre-Gillian version, and 4:22 for the Gillian version - i.e. use a stopwatch of some description!

l8rs,

Nick ;)

Yup - no timings on labels.

Okay, having grabbed both my Green and Blue/White copies out of my record shelf, here's the transcriptions on both of them:

Blue/White: THIS IS WHY EVENTS UNNERVE ME Green: WATCHING LOVE GROW - FOREVER

I'll let you know which is which!

l8rs,

Nick ;)

Well, having played both twelve inches, here's the results:

Green - 'WATCHING LOVE GROW - FOREVER' - original, pre-Gillian - 4:34 Blue/White - 'THIS IS WHY EVENTS UNNERVE ME' - remake, post-Gillian - 4:22

l8rs,

Nick ;)

Originally posted by Chris There's also the Italian Copper 12" sleeve, which was fairly easily obtainable in the UK at least. I've got 1 copy of the blue/cream sleeve - 2 copies of the Green one (Cream label & original) and the copper thing too. As I haven't listened to them in ages, I'm now wondering which version is on the Italian import!

The Italian copper 12" release has the trio version of Ceremony and the 7" edit of In a Lonely Place.

This discussion is confusing me I own a 12" containing Ceremony/In a lonely place. I have 3 questions about it.

First some info on this 12":

Sleeve: White with the blue ribbon, but there is the following difference: the black square on the front contains three stripes: beige, blue, beige (according to the scan of the white/blue ribbon sleeve on this site this should be white,blue,white).

Label: white with a lightly blue bar saying: 22/1/81 FAC33/12A 45 stereo

Side A: Ceremony -groove notations:Watching love grow - forever time: +/- 4.35

Side B In a lonely place: -groove notations:How I wish we were here with you now time: +/- 6.11

Questions: 1)Based on the groove notations the sleeve should be green, but it is white. How come?
2) Is this a different sleeve than the one in the discography (beige in stead of white 3)which recording is this Pre- of Post-Gillian?: It seems to be the pre-gillian recording according to the time.

Please help on this one :)

Originally posted by almanso Answers:1) it seems you can find both vinyls on both sleeves. buying a green sleeve doesn´t mean it has the first recording inside. and buying a cream/blue doesn´t mean it has the second recording inside. you have to check the groove notations to know.2) ?3) by the time and groove notations you mentioned you have the pre-Gillian recording.

Yes you are correct but this single should have been called CONFUSION.Just to add to the PLOT there are some more differences.Namely that the word TOWNHOUSE is on the REMIXED one according to my dealer...MARK of THE RECORD PEDDLER(he is the one that DID KNOW all things FACTORY). The colour is correct for the INNER box so this seems GENUINE and NOT RARE or NEW! Cheers ROCKET MICK Please note i own the TOWNHOUSE one which is scratched into the groove.EXCELLENT.I have 3 copies of all the correct ones PRE GILLIAN,POST GILLIAN,Different cover!This was a QUEST.

Originally posted by Rocket Mick > Originally posted by almanso Answers:1) it seems you can find both vinyls on both sleeves. buying a green sleeve doesn´t mean it has the first recording inside. and buying a cream/blue doesn´t mean it has the second recording inside. you have to check the groove notations to know.2) ?3) by the time and groove notations you mentioned you have the pre-Gillian recording.

Yes you are correct but this single should have been called CONFUSION.Just to add to the PLOT there are some more differences.Namely that the word TOWNHOUSE is on the REMIXED one according to my dealer...MARK of THE RECORD PEDDLER(he is the one that DID KNOW all things FACTORY). The colour is correct for the INNER box so this seems GENUINE and NOT RARE or NEW! Cheers ROCKET MICK Please note i own the TOWNHOUSE one which is scratched into the groove.EXCELLENT.I have 3 copies of all the correct ones PRE GILLIAN,POST GILLIAN,Different cover!This was a QUEST.

hahaha Confusion this is. I forgot to mention that there are more groove notations on my copy:

TOWNHOUSE FAC33A EC

Originally posted by almanso Answers:1) it seems you can find both vinyls on both sleeves. buying a green sleeve doesn´t mean it has the first recording inside. and buying a cream/blue doesn´t mean it has the second recording inside. you have to check the groove notations to know.2) ?3) by the time and groove notations you mentioned you have the pre-Gillian recording.

thanx.

about question number 2: the colours on the sleeve i own are different from the one you can find in discography. There you have a white sleeve with a blue ribbon. My copy is only white on the outside of the black square. On the inside there's beige or something like that.

Originally posted by Nanne a.k.a. SkullCrusher > Originally posted by almanso Answers:1) it seems you can find both vinyls on both sleeves. buying a green sleeve doesn´t mean it has the first recording inside. and buying a cream/blue doesn´t mean it has the second recording inside. you have to check the groove notations to know.2) ?3) by the time and groove notations you mentioned you have the pre-Gillian recording.

thanx.

about question number 2: the colours on the sleeve i own are different from the one you can find in discography. There you have a white sleeve with a blue ribbon. My copy is only white on the outside of the black square. On the inside there's beige or something like that. Interesting.Mine are different to yours so i will check out this sites ones now.

Indeed then yours are DIFFERENT.The colours in the middle of mine are BEIGE/BLUE/BEIGE but there is a ribbon.I am going out today but may pop in a MANCHESTER record shop that will clear up this problem for me.You seem to have a genuine copy due to the ENGINEERING marks.But where did you get this copy from?Off the top of my head i thought only the ITALIAN one was different.But nothing evere surprises me with FACTORY!

Originally posted by Rocket Mick Indeed then yours are DIFFERENT.The colours in the middle of mine are BEIGE/BLUE/BEIGE but there is a ribbon.I am going out today but may pop in a MANCHESTER record shop that will clear up this problem for me.You seem to have a genuine copy due to the ENGINEERING marks.But where did you get this copy from?Off the top of my head i thought only the ITALIAN one was different.But nothing evere surprises me with FACTORY!

sorry, we have a little misunderstanding. In my original post i write the following about the sleeve: "Sleeve: White with the blue ribbon, but there is the following difference: the black square on the front contains three stripes: beige, blue, beige (according to the scan of the white/blue ribbon sleeve on this site this should be white,blue,white)."

So my conclusion is we have the same copy. Why is this sleeve not mentioned in the discography?

Maybe they are CONFUSED!Maybe(oh NO) they have a different one?:D

I've bought mine in 84 in England (reissue?) It 's the green sleeve whith the original version (whithout Gillian) Label is white whith a light blue ribbon dated 22/1/81 Groove notations: A side: Watching Love Grow - Forever Fac 33 A! TOWNHOUSE E?(EC or EG) MVS (hard to find, near the recorded part) B side: How I Whish We Were Here Whith You Now Fac 33 B! TOWNHOUSE E?(EC or EG) MVS (hard to find, near the recorded part)

Anyone knows more about this item? Year of printing or anything else. Do factory have sold both versions intentionnaly after the rerecorded version? Note that this 12" sound powerfully great!

Originally posted by Nanne a.k.a. SkullCrusher "Sleeve: White with the blue ribbon, but there is the following difference: the black square on the front contains three stripes: beige, blue, beige (according to the scan of the white/blue ribbon sleeve on this site this should be white,blue,white)."So my conclusion is we have the same copy. Why is this sleeve not mentioned in the discography?

That's because those morons updating the Discography can't get their lazy butts up and actually hunt down every single pressing and sleeve in the entire world... :moon:

If you sent me a scan of the sleeve, that would help. Chances are that it is a non-UK pressings. In some cases pressings in other countries mixed up the colors of the sleeve somewhat (e.g., white -> cream -> beige). Don't always trust the color-representation of a scanned sleeve though...

Then you have the situations, in Sweden and some NZ releases, where they imported the vinyl but slapped on their own labels and put it in their own sleeves.

Originally posted by almanso groove notation:12" Green sleeveA: "Watching love grow forever"B: "How I wish we were here with you now"12" Cream/blue sleeveA: "This is why events unnerve me"B: "How I wish we were here with you now"alright, then... this is not necessarlly true, isn´t it? which one is the original and which one the reissue?

Well, I guess the Discography (at niagara.edu) tries to make the entry as easily understandable as possible, and then add additional information in the form of user comments. Note that the user comment in this case is a direct quote from a respectable source. Granted, it could benefit from some further clarification...

When I read the Discography entry, it is clear to me what it means. In a simplified way, the green sleeve is the original version, and the cream/blue sleeve is the re-recorded one. Though the linkage (original vs. re-recorded) is through the sleeves, the real link should probably be through the groove notations. However, the Discography is aimed towards collectors, and when browsing the stores, the first thing one sees is the sleeve...

As far as I can interpret things, the green sleeve comes in two flavours:

G1: Original recording, groove: "Watching..", matrix# FAC33A1 G2: Re-recorded, groove: "This..", matrix# FAC33A1 (possibly)

The reason for G2 was that they had too many green sleeves left over once the re-recorded the version (recycling is good). I'm pretty sure that G2 contains is the FAC33A1 and not the FAC33A2 - though some may exists.

The cream/blue sleeve comes in three flavours:

CB1: Re-recorded, groove: "This..", matrix# FAC33A1, the track fills the side CB2: Original recording, groove: "Watching..", matrix# FAC33A1 CB3: Re-recorded, groove: "This..", matrix# FAC33A2, the track is smaller

Why CB1 was withdrawn and replaced with CB2 beats me. So, the trick is really to check the groove notation to see what version you have.

If anyone can confirm or correct the above summary by looking at the records you actually own, I would greatly appreciate it. My collection is too far away...

Over and out.

NB: I guess this answers the question you had to me alejo?

/TLV

To further complicate things: mine is the green sleeve version... on a spanish release (Nuevos Medios, SA). No groove notations. Wich version is it? Anyone knows?

Well I've just double-checked the groove notation on both my green 12" and cream 12" and the a-side quote is "This is why events..." on both copies. So obviously I got ripped off with having the Gillian version in both my 12" sleeves. The groove notations are the only difference, ignore the sleeves.

It's all so easy now with t'internet getting the facts straight. Back in 85 I had to wait until NME or Record Collector did a New Order discography page before I knew all I needed to trace & buy. I can remember when I was first trying to buy everything in about 1985. I got hold of the Cream 12" first then found out that was the remix and the green one was a pre-Gillian mix. Bought the green one, played it and thought that sounds identical to the cream one! What's the difference?, decided that it must be my untrained ears not picking up some subtle difference. Forgot all about it for a bit, then I heard Ceremony on the Annie Nightingale request show (aah memories) with the drums played in a different pattern. Eh ? So I concluded I'd heard the pre-Gillian one and I'd been ripped off by the record shop. At least now I know I was ripped off by Factory instead. 17 years of being slightly annoyed and then I go and find the original pre-Gillian Ceremony as an MP3 on the net in less than 30 minutes. Why Factory couldn't put both versions of Ceremony on the cream remix release I'll never know - after all they did put 2 versions of Love Will Tear Us Apart on it's 12" plus a b-side !?!?! But I think we all know Factory wasn't always sensible......

mmmmmm......I am comforted by that. Bought a copy of the cream/blue sleeve yesterday and its got the original version inside...NICE:D Back in 84 I had the two versions and couldn't figure out the difference it perplexed me and like you Hacienda, thought there must be subltle differences only intelligible to someone with the hearing of a dog.

Typical Factory......

I just wish they would release a CD single with both covers on it and both versions of both songs on it and make everyone happy

Originally posted by five hates six mmmmmm......I am comforted by that. Bought a copy of the cream/blue sleeve yesterday and its got the original version inside...NICE:D

You lucky sod, that's the combination I need. To make my 2 copies legitimate I now need another cream sleeve but with a pre-Gillian record in it to cancel out the green sleeve with the remix record! I bet there's about 50 people on here with record & sleeves the wrong way round. Hey, let's have a Ceremony Swap Shop page! Trouble is when you add them all up I suspect there's probably about 50/50 split on the sleeve colour but considerably more copies of the remix record than the original pre-Gillian version. To be honest, I'm blowed if I'm going to traipse round dozens of record shops looking for the right (or wrong as it turns out) combination, too old for all that nonsense now. I've filled in all the gaps this year using the magic of MP3 and filesharing. Just wish the band would put out an official rarities CD and be done with it.

Originally posted by Kevin Smith I just wish they would release a CD single with both covers on it and both versions of both songs on it and make everyone happy

That'll do me fine