Skip to content

Fahrenheit 9/11

Archived

84 replies · 1,397 views

This is an archived legacy thread. Replies are closed, but the discussion is preserved.

White House 'tried to ban film' By Ian Youngs BBC News Online entertainment staff in Cannes

The White House tried to halt the making and release of Michael Moore's new film Fahrenheit 9/11, the film-maker alleged in Cannes on Sunday. The director told a Cannes audience that the Bush administration wanted to keep the film off screen in the run-up to November's US election.

The film examines the Iraq war and alleges connections between the Bush family and Osama Bin Laden.

Fahrenheit 9/11 is to get its world premiere in Cannes on Monday.

The film studio Disney had backed out of a deal to distribute the film in the US for political reasons, Moore says.

He has given no evidence to substantiate his allegations, but he said that "someone connected to the White House" and a "top Republican" had put pressure on film companies not to release the film.

Moore said the few who had seen the film had told him "the potential for this film to have an impact on the election was much larger than they thought".

Undercover in Iraq

The film was originally scheduled to be released through Disney-backed independent studio Miramax, before Disney blocked it.

It is now being released through a third party.

Disney accused Moore of engineering a dispute about the film's release to gain maximum publicity. It said it had blocked the film because it wanted to be impartial during the election, but strongly denied coming under any outside pressure.

The director has already shown the film at test screenings in the Midwest of the US.

"The reaction was overwhelming," he said. "People who were on the fence - undecided voters - suddenly weren't on the fence."

Moore has revealed that he had three undercover film crews embedded with US troops in Iraq.

"I was able to sneak three different freelance crews into Iraq," he said on Saturday.

The soldiers had "expressed disillusionment that they had been lied to", said Moore.

The film from Iraq was a "very important" part of the documentary, he added.

"It is certainly something the Bush administration does not want people to see," said Moore.

Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/entertainment/3719261.stm

Published: 2004/05/16 15:13:22 GMT

© BBC MMIV

0 likes

Disney chose to try to thwart its release because they wanted FL tax breaks from Jeb. Miramax who is under Disney will release it through a third party. Anyways this film will be more baseless propaganda by Moore, the proud member of the NRA.

0 likes

How will Bush ever get the truth out?

Oh wait, he can't get the truth out, he's a lying sack of shite. :evil4:

0 likes

Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr How will Bush ever get the truth out?Oh wait, he can't get the truth out, he's a lying sack of shite. :evil4:

Not as much as Kerry :p

0 likes

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr> How will Bush ever get the truth out?> > > > > > > > > > Oh wait, he can't get the truth out, he's a lying sack of shite. :evil4:

Not as much as Kerry :p

All politicians are scum...that's why we need a King of America

:thumb: I'd vote for him!

0 likes

Originally posted by Taboo # 7 > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol> > > > Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr> > How will Bush ever get the truth out?> > > > Oh wait, he can't get the truth out, he's a lying sack of shite. :evil4:>

Not as much as Kerry :p

All politicians are scum...that's why we need a King of America

:thumb: I'd vote for him! :laugh: :laugh: Me too! Kaiser Costello!

0 likes

Now I understand why they called Elvis "the King."

0 likes

Just saw a clip where people where coming out of the first projection of the movie in Cannes and an American said that, after seeing what this movie shows, he was ashamed to be American and that he was ashamed of his president and that he hoped that the american people would "take that bandit out of the white house".

:laugh:

0 likes

I wonder if Mr. Moore applied the same journalistic integrity to F911 that he did to BFC?

Do you think Webster's will have to redefine the word "documentary" just for him? :rofl:

0 likes

Originally posted by Michael McDermott I wonder if Mr. Moore applied the same journalistic integrity to F911 that he did to BFC?Do you think Webster's will have to redefine the word "documentary" just for him? :rofl:

I think the Academy has to be reminded :nonono:

0 likes

Originally posted by Take My Hand (And Don't Let Go) Just saw a clip where people where coming out of the first projection of the movie in Cannes and an American said that, after seeing what this movie shows, he was ashamed to be American and that he was ashamed of his president and that he hoped that the american people would "take that bandit out of the white house".:laugh:

First of all, who the hell uses the word "bandit" in that context? Kim Jong Ill? Uncle Ho? The Dixie Chicks?

As for the "American" who felt such shame, I guess self-hate is in this year.......

0 likes

Look, it's quite simple. You just stay here, and make sure 'e doesn't leave the room....

No, no, that's not it. Try again...

Look, it's quite simple. A documentarian is not a journalist.

Yeah, that's it. :thumb:

0 likes

Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr Look, it's quite simple. You just stay here, and make sure 'e doesn't leave the room....No, no, that's not it. Try again...Look, it's quite simple. A documentarian is not a journalist.Yeah, that's it. :thumb:

......I may not understand your "cell phones" or "dental floss". But what I do know is that my client's injury is worth $500K in compensatory damages and $2.5 million dollars in punative damages....

0 likes

:rofl::thumb::clap::clap::clap:

0 likes

Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes Elvis Costello? Really? You old fuckers

Hum, out of curiousity, have you read our Terms of Use ? :confused2:

I've seen several message where you are broking the ethical code of this website.

0 likes

Originally posted by Spotnick > Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes> Elvis Costello? Really? You old fuckers

Hum, out of curiousity, have you read our Terms of Use ? :confused2:

I've seen several message where you are broking the ethical code of this website. Just several?

0 likes

Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope > Originally posted by Spotnick> > > > Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes> > Elvis Costello? Really? You old fuckers>

Hum, out of curiousity, have you read our Terms of Use ? :confused2:

I've seen several message where you are broking the ethical code of this website. Just several?

:laugh: I don't think he's the only one though.:uhoh:

0 likes

Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope > Originally posted by Spotnick> > > > Originally posted by James Stephen Barnes> > Elvis Costello? Really? You old fuckers>

Hum, out of curiousity, have you read our Terms of Use ? :confused2:

I've seen several message where you are broking the ethical code of this website. Just several?

Well, I still have boxes everywhere, so I don't have time to check everything just yet ;)

Move isn't all finished!

0 likes

I think this is all a publicity drive by Moore. The film was deemed "unsuitable" by Disney a year ago, he got an independent film distributor to distribute it, and it will be shown in Europe and the states anyhow. everyone at Cannes, and around the world is talking about how terrible bush and Disney tried to quash poor mikey, and his film will proberbaly rocket. its just good old disinformation publicity.

Although Moore doesn’t really back up his arguments in the most achedemic fashion, but I admire his sentiment. The fact that tens of thousands of workers are laid off indiscriminately ruining lives etc , is wrong, and he does give a nice broadly leftist analysis of US internal and foreign policy.

0 likes

i guess michael moore doesn't have as much money as mel gibson!

0 likes

8º Celsius here.

0 likes

'Fahrenheit 9/11' Takes Top Award at Cannes Michael Moore's controversial film is the first documentary to win the Palme d'Or since 1956. From The Associated Press

12:34 PM PDT, May 22, 2004

CANNES, France — American filmmaker Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11," a scathing indictment of White House actions after the Sept. 11 attacks, won the top prize Saturday at the Cannes Film Festival.

"Fahrenheit 9/11" was the first documentary to win Cannes' prestigious Palme d'Or since Jacques Cousteau's "The Silent World" in 1956.

"What have you done? I'm completely overwhelmed by this. Merci," Moore said after getting a standing ovation from the Cannes crowd.

The grand prize, the festival's second-place honor, went to South Korean filmmaker Park Chan-wook's "Old Boy," a blood-soaked thriller about a man out for revenge after years of inexplicable imprisonment.

Moore was momentarily flabbergasted when he took the stage to accept the award, a big difference from his fiery speech against President Bush after winning the best-documentary Academy Award for 2002's "Bowling for Columbine."

"You have to understand, the last time I was on an awards stage, in Hollywood, all hell broke loose," Moore said.

The best-actress award went to Maggie Cheung for her role in "Clean" as a junkie trying to straighten out her life and regain custody of her young son after her rock-star boyfriend dies of a drug overdose.

Fourteen-year-old Yagira Yuuya was named best actor for the Japanese film "Nobody Knows," in which he plays the eldest of four sibling raised in isolation, who must take charge of the family when their mother leaves.

The directing and writing prizes went to French filmmakers. Tony Gatlif won the directing honor for "Exiles," his road-trip about a couple on a sensual journey from France to Algeria.

Agnes Jaoui and her romantic partner, Jean-Pierre Bacri, won the screenplay award for "Look at Me," their study in self-image centering on an overweight young woman who feels neglected by loved ones. Jaoui and Bacri also co-star.

"Fahrenheit 9/11" won the top award from sharply divided Cannes moviegoers, who found a solid crop of good movies among the 19 entries in the festival's main competition but no great ones that rose to front-runner status.

While "Fahrenheit 9/11" was well-received by Cannes audiences, many critics felt it was inferior to Moore's Academy Award-winning documentary "Bowling for Columbine," which earned him a special prize at Cannes in 2002.

Some critics speculated that if "Fahrenheit 9/11" won the top prize, it would be more for the film's politics than its cinematic value.

With Moore's customary blend of humor and horror, "Fahrenheit 9/11" accuses the Bush camp of stealing the 2000 election, overlooking terrorism warnings before Sept. 11 and fanning fears of more attacks to secure Americans' support for the Iraq war.

Moore appears on-screen far less in "Fahrenheit 9/11" than in "Bowling for Columbine" or his other documentaries. The film relies largely on interviews, footage of U.S. soldiers and war victims in Iraq, and archival footage of Bush.

Just back in Cannes after his daughter's college graduation in the United States, Moore dedicated the award to "my daughter and to all the children in America and Iraq and throughout the world who suffered through our actions."

"Fahrenheit 9/11" made waves in the weeks leading up to Cannes after the Walt Disney Co. refused to let subsidiary Miramax release the film in the United States because of its political content. Miramax bosses Harvey and Bob Weinstein are negotiating to buy back the film and find another distributor, with hopes of landing it in theaters by Fourth of July weekend.

Quentin Tarantino headed the nine-member jury that handed out prizes in Cannes' main competition. The other jurors included actresses Kathleen Turner, Tilda Swinton and Emmanuelle Beart.

Thai director Apichatpong Weerasethakul's "Tropical Malady" -- widely regarded by Cannes audiences as a snoozer for its elongated scenes of a man wandering a jungle alone, with no dialogue -- won the festival's third-place jury prize.

Another jury prize went to Irma P. Hall for her role as an elderly Southern woman who foils a casino robbery in the Coen brothers' crime comedy "The Ladykillers," starring Tom Hanks as the heist's ringleader.

Keren Yedaya's "Or," about a Tel Aviv prostitute in failing health and her teenage daughter, won the Golden Camera award for best film by a first-time director. The U.S.-born Yedaya, who grew up in Israel, gives lectures about the problems of prostitution for government officials and mental-health professionals.

Earlier Saturday, Senegalese filmmaker Ousmane Sembene's "Moolaade," an examination of the ritual of female circumcision that earned rave reviews, won the top prize in a secondary Cannes competition called "Un Certain Regard."

The 12-day festival's closing film -- "De-Lovely," Kevin Kline's musical biography of Cole Porter -- screened immediately after the awards. Kline and co-star Ashley Judd then hosted a beach concert featuring Sheryl Crow, Alanis Morissette, Natalie Cole and other singers from "De-Lovely" performing Porter tunes.

The festival was to wrap up Sunday with encore screenings of award winners and other key movies that played the festival, including a combined, four-hour version of Tarantino's two "Kill Bill" installments.

0 likes

Another non-documentary film getting awards? :nonono: Big fat fuck liberal who likes to open his mouth.

0 likes

Moore's more of an entertainer than a "serious film-maker", anyone who remembers TV Nation knows that. But he does have genuine passion for his causes, which is more than I can say for a lot of the people decrying what he does.

The fact is, the Bush Administration fucked up. That's not a debatable point. We were supposed to go after Al Qaeda, but we decided to take out Saddam instead. Big fucking mistake, because Bin Laden (or the actor portraying him, as I'd like to think the real deal is eight feet under a pile of rubble) is way more credible in the Arab world than he was before. Whether Moore actually seeks the truth or is just using the oppertunity to push his agenda, it sickens me that a lot of the same Repubs who dived nose-first into Bill Clinton's personal affairs are "shocked" that Bush is being called to task on charges far more serious than a goddam blowjob. Ann Coulter and Fox News are just as deserving of the "radical" label Moore often gets, those motherfuckers can all go fuck themselves.

It's an insane world we're living in. Back to the good old days of the Cold War, I say. Those Russians sure knew when to give and when to take...:nuts:

0 likes

Ann Coulter is hot! :love2:

0 likes

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol Ann Coulter is hot! :love2:

If you like a woman with the face of Skeletor, from the old "He-Man" cartoon

0 likes

The devil's spawn has to be hot; c'mon the guy lives in Hell, so his daughter, Ann Coulter, is a hottie. :evil4:

0 likes

I just like the way he's holding that stick :evil4:

0 likes

this war is arrogant racism, Iraqis are non-Christian non-white... so they don't count as real people... and most Americans don't care all that much as long as the consumer economy stays status quo... and the US can't remove a military presence, especially now, become if crude oil doubles or triples in price, the US economy will be in chaos, the rich will be fcuk'd... and just about everyones profit margin is based on cheap petroleum... all food (pesticides, fertilizers, transportation, packaging), clothes, packaging and all plastic products in everything...

...but oil will become much more expensive, the gov't will be in massive debt from war, the economy will collapse like the Soviet Union in 15 to 20 years. the US will invade Canada, to create a "gated community" for the remaining rich. Canadians will invade Greenland ...just remember, you have been warned :nuts:

so it don't matter who wins the election.

0 likes

Originally posted by pumped full of drugs this war is arrogant racsism, Iraqis are non-Christian non-white... so they don't count as real people... and most Americans don't care all that much as long as the consumer economy stays status quo... and the US can't remove a military presence, especially now, become if crude oil doubles or triples in price, the US economy will be in chaos, the rich will be fcuk'd... and just about everyones profit margin is based on cheap petroleum... all food (pesticides, fertilizers, transportation, packaging), clothes, packaging and all plastic products in everything... ...but oil will become much more expensive, the gov't will be in massive debt from war, the economy will collapse like the Soviet Union in 15 to 20 years. the US will invade Canada, to create a "gated community" for the remaining rich. Canadians will invade Greenland ...just remember, you have been warned :nuts:so it don't matter who wins the election.

Damn you are on some good acid.

0 likes

uhm...he's on something...the Arabs can't afford to let the US economy collapse...that's why the Saudi's are already talking about getting OPEC to raise the amounts of oil available...but I'm not going to get into a political discussion at this time of night...I'm going to have another beer!!!:thumb:

0 likes

Originally posted by #41 uhm...he's on something...the Arabs can't afford to let the US economy collapse...that's why the Saudi's are already talking about getting OPEC to raise the amounts of oil available...but I'm not going to get into a political discussion at this time of night...I'm going to have another beer!!!:thumb:

They better do it, gaz price has never been so high over here... 1$ per litre, it used to be in the 60-70 cents!!

0 likes

Frankly I hope the gas prices stay high. Maybe this will motivate more R&D for non fossil fuel systems.

0 likes

Originally posted by #41 uhm...he's on something...the Arabs can't afford to let the US economy collapse...that's why the Saudi's are already talking about getting OPEC to raise the amounts of oil available...but I'm not going to get into a political discussion at this time of night...I'm going to have another beer!!!:thumb:

US economy collapse? We may be having a little bit of a hard time now, but we are hardly anywhere close to a collapse. The Saudis are in our pockets because of Papa Bush; so if we want something, usually the Saudis help us.

0 likes

the "Peak Oil Theory" and the end of the petroleum age in the next 50 years.... very scary even if only some if it comes true... sounds like a conspiracy theory but it is hard to really completely disprove it, other than just pretending it will not happen.

the theory which has been around for 30 years is that oil demand keeps growing yearly but cheap supply cannot keep growing to meet the demand. the demand outgrowing supply is suppossed to happen this decade or next. developing countries needs for petroleum are growing pretty much everywhere. economic demand will drive the price of oil higher and higher. the US wants a military presence in the middle east to help ease and avoid any major spikes in oil production which would be catastrophic to the economy. the world is heavily dependant on petroleum for consumer goods and agriculture, both in production and transportation, not just in fueling autos. the US economy is the most dependant, with potential for massive changes in our consumer society. reportedly billions could starve or die from disease in developing countries, and the world population will have a 90% reduction by the end of the century.... really wild stuff, hope that its all exaggerated, but things might be dramatic change in our lifetime, and in the US having such an aging population and building such debt, it may not be pretty. or maybe everything will turn out in the end, but the end of the fast food and Walmart culture may be ending (which might be good thing)

0 likes

We may be oil dependent now, but faced with a serious crisis we will step our R&D for alternate fuel sources to power cars, etc. The one fossil fuel that does scare me is coal, and I worry about the day when it runs out because our power system depends on it so much, but faced with that crisis our government would use deficit spending to build nuclear plants or more hydroelectric systems. In the end I don't think this country has anything serious to worry about as long as research on hydrogen fuel cells and other ethanol systems continue to be researched.

0 likes

I look forward to the day when we use urine as a fuel source...I have plenty saved away already :D

:nonono: :rolleyes:

0 likes

He won the palm d'or. As anyone who has read my other posts (not many!) around here may have figured, im on the left myself, but I still dont think moores film could even feature in the same division as almodovar.

this must be a political decision.

the anti bush industry continues. its a joke at this stage. when will people concentrate on the why rather than the who ???

i just dont dig moores style.

0 likes

Clockwork, you commie arse! :p :wink:

0 likes

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol Clockwork, you commie arse! :p:wink:

ha ha - what kind of commie sides with michael mc dermott on the immense scale of the other world famous american michael?

did anyone read the observer about moore yesterday? it was like A MICHAEL MOORE PEICE. like "moore on moore, selectively".

ah jaysus!

0 likes

My favorite paragraph from the Observer article: Last week on the baking Côte d'Azur, there was no one hotter than the big fellow from Michigan. Among the stylish hordes of the Croisette, there was no greater attraction than this ursine fig ure in his ill-fitting suit. Everyone wanted a piece of him, and there is a lot of him to go around, but after months of requests, I had the only one-on-one interview. Michael and Me, we had a real meeting arranged.

0 likes

yeha, wasnt it like michael moore writing an anti michael moore piece? i thought i was half baked when i read it, really creepy. like someone writing about bernard sumner in a sort of childlike nonsense prose! :laugh:

0 likes

It was just like i was reading Michael Moore; I stopped at a third way through the column.

0 likes

Originally posted by Taboo # 7 Moore's more of an entertainer than a "serious film-maker", anyone who remembers TV Nation knows that. But he does have genuine passion for his causes, which is more than I can say for a lot of the people decrying what he does.The fact is, the Bush Administration fucked up. That's not a debatable point. We were supposed to go after Al Qaeda, but we decided to take out Saddam instead. Big fucking mistake, because Bin Laden (or the actor portraying him, as I'd like to think the real deal is eight feet under a pile of rubble) is way more credible in the Arab world than he was before. Whether Moore actually seeks the truth or is just using the oppertunity to push his agenda, it sickens me that a lot of the same Repubs who dived nose-first into Bill Clinton's personal affairs are "shocked" that Bush is being called to task on charges far more serious than a goddam blowjob. Ann Coulter and Fox News are just as deserving of the "radical" label Moore often gets, those motherfuckers can all go fuck themselves. It's an insane world we're living in. Back to the good old days of the Cold War, I say. Those Russians sure knew when to give and when to take...:nuts:

Finally! Reason in a howling wind of garbage!

No one ever talks about Bin Laden anymore...just Iraq. I'm all for the military kicking a** and getting the f**kers who bombed us...but lets at least put some resources into getting the right guys who are in Afganistan/pakistan and in Saudi Arabia (interesting that noone ever mentions them either). The $400 billion being spent in Iraq would have been much better spent getting Bin Laden and his crew first.

Oh and does anyone else believe that we couldn't have found another way to take out Saddam for less than $400billion...I mean how much does that work out to be for every Iraqi? Couldn't we just have spent $20 billion in bribes...thats how we got Saddam's sons and prolly him as well....

At the beginning we had the world with us in Afganistan and Al Qaida on the run...now we are on the run out of Iraq with our tail between our legs...totally bass ackwards.

Oh yeah...gotta love those "principled" "integrity" and "honesty" pounding right wingers who were so worried about Clinton getting some on the side (stupid and wrong to be sure) but they call it treason to question why there aren't weapons of mass destruction...or terrorists in Iraq.

0 likes

The Fahrenheit 9/11 trailer

0 likes

Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr The Fahrenheit 9/11 trailer

does anyone really give a flying fook for that fat fook of a fake documentarian?

0 likes

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr> The Fahrenheit 9/11 trailer

does anyone really give a flying fook for that fat fook of a fake documentarian?

Disney sure does, they didn't want to lose those tax breaks :nonono:

I think the film needs to be seen, even if it is complete and utter horseshit. After all, that's what Hollywood is known for. :D

0 likes

Originally posted by Taboo # 7 > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol> > > > Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr> > The Fahrenheit 9/11 trailer>

does anyone really give a flying fook for that fat fook of a fake documentarian?

Disney sure does, they didn't want to lose those tax breaks :nonono:

I think the film needs to be seen, even if it is complete and utter horseshit. After all, that's what Hollywood is known for. :D It's gotten so much press (mostly due to Moore's complaining and bitching) that it could make lots of money potentially. Hopefully it flops.

0 likes

Is there anything so sweet in this world as watching a Bush go down in flames?

0 likes

Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr Is there anything so sweet in this world as watching a Bush go down in flames?

Bush won't go down just yet. Wait until gas prices go down and after June 30th. July will be Bush's month to beat Kerry down. Anyways there will still be a Republican Congress, and a majority of Republican governors.

0 likes

Oh yeah...gotta love those "principled" "integrity" and "honesty" pounding right wingers who were so worried about Clinton getting some on the side (stupid and wrong to be sure) but they call it treason to question why there aren't weapons of mass destruction...or terrorists in Iraq.

there are plenty of terrorists NOW in Iraq... and plenty mass violence and destruction NOW.... see, they knew Iraq's true potential and fulfilled it...

and they are going to start drafting poor young males after the election to keep fighting these terrorists, instead of throwing younger men into jails at a record rate, they are going to send them to do something productive and carry weapons in Iraq.

0 likes

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr> Is there anything so sweet in this world as watching a Bush go down in flames?

Bush won't go down just yet. Wait until gas prices go down and after June 30th. July will be Bush's month to beat Kerry down. Anyways there will still be a Republican Congress, and a majority of Republican governors.

this election year should be extremely entertaining and scary.... The Bush group has no shame whatsover, but they will have to at least make the Middle East look stable for a few months so oil prices can stop being so nervous. At the smae time they have to make people worried about terrorism in the USA but also think that the Middle East is settling down at the same time, and find more excuses for the validity of the war. US can't pull out now, even if Kerry can win despite Bush's cheating.

0 likes

You should watch 911-The Road to Tyranny, by Alex Jones. It gave Michael Moore all the ammunition.

infowars.com prisonplanet.com propagandamatrix.com

0 likes

June 20, 2004

Will Michael Moore's Facts Check Out? By PHILIP SHENON

HOLLYWOOD, Calif.

MICHAEL MOORE is not coy about his hopes for "Fahrenheit 9/11," his blistering documentary attack on President Bush and the war in Iraq. He wants it to be remembered as the first big-audience, election-year film that helped unseat a president.

"And it's not just a hope," the Oscar-winning filmmaker said in a phone interview last week, describing focus groups in Michigan in April at which, after seeing the movie, previously undecided voters expressed eagerness to defeat Mr. Bush. "We found that if you entered the theater on the fence, you fell off it somewhere during those two hours," he said. "It ignites a fire in people who had given up."

The movie's indictment of the president is nothing if not sprawling. Mr. Moore suggests that Mr. Bush and his administration jeopardized national security in an effort to placate Bush family cronies in Saudi Arabia, that the White House helped members of Mr. bin Laden's family to flee the United States after Sept. 11 and that the administration manipulated terrorism alert levels in order to scare Americans into supporting the invasion of Iraq.

Mr. Moore's previous films generated a cottage industry of conservative commentators eager to prove sloppiness and exaggeration in his films; a handful of mainstream critics have also found flaws. But if "Fahrenheit 9/11" attracts the audience Mr. Moore and his distributors are predicting, Mr. Moore may face an onslaught of fact-checking unlike anything he — or any other documentary filmmaker — has ever experienced. After all, White House officials and the Bush family began impugning the film even before any of them had seen it.

"Outrageously false," said Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director, last month when told about the film's assertion of a sinister connection between Mr. Bush and the family of Osama bin Laden. The former president George H. W. Bush was quoted in The New York Daily News calling Mr. Moore a "slime ball" and describing the documentary as "a vicious personal attack on our son."

So how will Mr. Moore's movie stand up under close examination? Is the film's depiction of Mr. Bush as a lazy and duplicitous leader, blinded by his family's financial ties to Arab moneymen and the Saudi Arabian royal family, true to fact?

Mr. Moore and his distributors have refused to circulate copies of the film and its script before the film's release this Friday; his production team said that as of last Wednesday, there was no final script because the film was still undergoing minor editing — for clarity, they said, not accuracy.

After a year spent covering the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, I was recently allowed to attend a Hollywood screening. Based on that single viewing, and after separating out what is clearly presented as Mr. Moore's opinion from what is stated as fact, it seems safe to say that central assertions of fact in "Fahrenheit 9/11" are supported by the public record (indeed, many of them will be familiar to those who have closely followed Mr. Bush's political career).

Mr. Moore is on firm ground in arguing that the Bushes, like many prominent Texas families with oil interests, have profited handsomely from their relationships with prominent Saudis, including members of the royal family and of the large and fabulously wealthy bin Laden clan, which has insisted it long ago disowned Osama. Mr. Moore spends several minutes in the film documenting ties between the president and James R. Bath, a financial advisor to a prominent member of the bin Laden family who was an original investor in Mr. Bush's Arbusto energy company and who served with the future president in the Air National Guard in the early 1970's. The Bath friendship, which indirectly links Mr. Bush to the family of the world's most notorious terrorist, has received less attention from national news organization than it has from reporters in Texas, but it has been well documented.

Mr. Moore charges that President Bush and his aides paid too little attention to warnings in the summer of 2001 that Al Qaeda was about to attack, including a detailed Aug. 6, 2001, C.I.A. briefing that warned of terrorism within the country's borders. In its final report next month, the Sept. 11 commission can be expected to offer support to this assertion. Mr. Moore says that instead of focusing on Al Qaeda, the president spent 42 percent of his first eight months in office on vacation; the figure came not from a conspiracy-hungry Web site but from a calculation by The Washington Post.

The most valid criticisms of the film are likely to involve the artful way that Mr. Moore connects the facts, and whether he has left out others that might undermine his scalding attack. A great many statistics fly by in the movie — such as assertions that 6 percent to 7 percent of the United States is owned by Saudi Arabians, and that Saudi companies have paid more than $1.4 billion to Bush family interests. But Mr. Moore doesn't explain how he arrived at them, or what these vague interests comprise. Mr. Moore and his team say they have news reports and other evidence to back up the numbers and that it will be posted on his Web site (www.michaelmoore.com) after the film's release.

Mr. Moore may also be criticized for the way he portrays the evacuation of the extended bin Laden family from the United States after Sept. 11. As the Sept. 11 commission has found, the Saudi government was able to pull strings at senior levels of the Bush administration to help the bin Ladens leave the United States. But while the film clearly suggests that the flights occurred at a time when all air traffic was grounded immediately after the attacks ("Even Ricky Martin couldn't fly," Mr. Moore says over video of the singer wandering in an airport lobby), the Sept. 11 commission said in a report this April that there was "no credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi Arabian nationals departed the United States before the reopening of national airspace" and that the F.B.I. had concluded that no one aboard the flights was involved in Sept. 11.

In conversation, Mr. Moore defended the scene, saying his goal was to show how the White House was eager to bend and break the rules for Saudi friends — in this case, the extended family of the terrorist who had just brought down the twin towers and attacked the Pentagon. And as reporters have found, the White House still refuses to document fully how the flights were arranged.

"I don't want to get lost in the forest because of a single tree," Mr. Moore said. "The main point I want people to go away with is that these people got special treatment because they were bin Ladens or Saudi royals, and you and I would never have been given that treatment."

Mr. Moore may also have to defend his portrayal of Mr. Bush's presidency as sinking prior to Sept. 11, citing an inability to win support for his legislation. But he fails to mention that in May, Congress agreed to Mr. Bush's $1.35 trillion tax cut, the centerpiece of his legislative agenda. Mr. Moore said that his review of news coverage before Sept. 11 shows that, with or without the tax cut, the Bush presidency was floundering before the terrorist attacks. Mr. Moore said, "I've read what other people wrote and said at the time, and he was definitely on the ropes."

MR. MOORE usually revels in his role as the target of conservative attacks, and his delight in playing the mischievous, little-guy bomb-thrower has brought him fame, wealth and the devotion of fans more interested in rhetorical force than precision. But with "Fahrenheit" he has taken on his biggest and best-defended target yet, and his production staff says that on his orders they have taken no chances in checking and double-checking the film, knowing Bush supporters would pounce on factual mistakes.

Mr. Moore is readying for a conservative counterattack, saying he has created a political-style "war room" to offer an instant response to any assault on the film's credibility. He has retained Chris Lehane, a Democratic Party strategist known as a master of the black art of "oppo," or opposition research, used to discredit detractors. He also hired outside fact-checkers, led by a former general counsel of The New Yorker and a veteran member of that magazine's legendary fact-checking team, to vet the film. And he is threatening to go one step further, saying he has consulted with lawyers who can bring defamation suits against anyone who maligns the film or damages his reputation.

"We want the word out," says Mr. Moore, who says he should have responded more quickly to allegations of inaccuracy in his Oscar-winning 2002 anti-gun documentary, "Bowling for Columbine." "Any attempts to libel me will be met by force," he said, not an ounce of humor in his familiar voice. "The most important thing we have is truth on our side. If they persist in telling lies, knowingly telling a lie with malice, then I'll take them to court."

As proof of its scrupulousness, the Moore team cites adjustments it made to the film's portrayal of Attorney General John Ashcroft. The film is brutal to Mr. Ashcroft, depicting him as a glassy-eyed architect of efforts to shred the Constitution, who became Attorney General only after he proved himself so unpopular in his home state of Missouri that he lost a Senate race to a former Democratic governor who died in a plane crash a month before election day. "Voters preferred the dead guy," Mr. Moore deadpans in the film, a line that drew belly laughs at recent preview screenings. (In reality, voters knew they were in effect casting ballots for the governor's widow).

An earlier version of the film, however, included a reference to a widely circulated charge, broadcast by CBS News in July 2001, that Mr. Ashcroft had received warning of threats and stopped flying on commercial airlines. Tia Lessin, supervising producer of "Fahrenheit 9/11," said the reference to the CBS report was cut after Mr. Moore's fact-checking team found evidence that Mr. Ashcroft had flown commercially at least twice that summer.

"We have gone through every single word of this film — literally every word — and verified its accuracy," said Joanne Doroshow, a public interest lawyer and filmmaker who shared in a 1993 Oscar for documentaries and who joined the fact-checking effort last month. Ms. Doroshow is responsible for preparing what she calls a "fact-checking bible," with material ranging from newspaper and magazine articles to copies of the Federal Register, that will allow the film's lawyers and publicists to provide backup for its allegations.

That said, Mr. Moore's fact-checkers do not view the film as straight reportage. "This is an Op-Ed piece, it's not a news report," said Dev Chatillon, the former general counsel for The New Yorker. "This is not The New York Times, it's not a network news report. The facts have to be right, yes, but this is an individual's view of current events. And I'm a very firm believer that it is within everybody's right to examine the actions of their government."

Besides, it may turn out that the most talked-about moments in the film are the least impeachable. Mr. Moore makes extensive use of obscure footage from White House and network-news video archives, including long scenes that capture President Bush at his least articulate. For the White House, the most devastating segment of "Fahrenheit 9/11" may be the video of a befuddled-looking President Bush staying put for nearly seven minutes at a Florida elementary school on the morning of Sept. 11, continuing to read a copy of "My Pet Goat" to schoolchildren even after an aide has told him that a second plane has struck the twin towers. Mr. Bush's slow, hesitant reaction to the disastrous news has never been a secret. But seeing the actual footage, with the minutes ticking by, may prove more damaging to the White House than all the statistics in the world.

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

Here's another film with the Bush footage: Bush Knew

0 likes

Group Asks FEC About 'Fahrenheit' Ads

By SHARON THEIMER, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - A conservative group asked federal election officials on Thursday to investigate whether television ads for director Michael Moore (news)'s anti-Bush documentary "Fahrenheit 9/11" violate campaign finance law regulating when commercials may feature a presidential candidate.

The Federal Election Commission might take months to issue a ruling on the complaint, making it unlikely the commission would act in time to affect the film's ad campaign. The two-hour documentary, which depicts President Bush as lazy and oblivious to warnings in summer 2001 that al-Qaida was poised to strike, opens nationwide on Friday.

The group Citizens United contended that commercials for "Fahrenheit 9/11" fall under federal campaign finance law. Regulations prohibit the use of corporate money to air ads identifying a presidential candidate in the 30 days before his party's nominating convention and the 60 days before the Nov. 2 election.

Bush will be nominated by the GOP during its New York convention Aug. 30-Sept. 2. Citizens United argued that "Fahrenheit 9/11" ads that identify Bush and are paid for with corporate money should be banned after July 31.

Moore called the complaint "a blatant attempt on the part of a right-wing, Republican-sponsored group to stop people from seeing my movie." He said he would fight the complaint, and members of the Congressional Black Caucus appearing with him at a news conference near the Capitol promised to help.

"It's a violation of my First Amendment rights that I cannot advertise my movie. It's a movie," Moore said. "I have not publicly endorsed John Kerry. I am an independent, I am not a member of the Democratic Party."

An exemption to the law frees a wide array of media organizations from the ban on the use of corporate money for ads identifying federal candidates close to elections. Moore, an Oscar-winning documentary filmmaker, and the film might be covered by the media exemption.

Citizens United contends that "Fahrenheit 9/11" is propaganda and doesn't qualify for the media exemption. It is among conservative groups that have tried to mobilize the public against the film, arguing that Moore's portrayal of the Bush administration is inaccurate.

The group's complaint names Moore; companies involved in the film's marketing and distribution, including Lions Gate Entertainment Corp., Cablevision Systems Corp., Viacom International; and brothers Harvey and Bob Weinstein, executives at the film company Miramax who formed a separate company to find a way to distribute Moore's film.

The complaint also contends that because Lions Gate is foreign-owned, the ads are subject to a ban on the use of foreign money for ads identifying presidential candidates close to elections.

"Fahrenheit 9/11" won the top honor at last month's Cannes Film Festival. Moore and his distributors lost their appeal Tuesday to lower its rating from R to PG-13.

The FEC issued a decision Thursday on ads involving another film, but commissioners said it doesn't address Moore or ads promoting "Fahrenheit 9/11." In that ruling, the FEC told an Arizona man he couldn't use corporate money to run ads promoting his documentary film and identifying Bush and congressional candidates close to the election.

David Hardy, president of the Bill of Rights Educational Foundation in Tucson, Ariz., had asked the commission for its advice on whether he could use foundation money for the ads. Hardy didn't ask the commission whether his ads would qualify for the media exemption.

___

Associated Press Writer Aparna Kumar contributed to this report.

0 likes

If it's legal, let the FEC do what it wants, but for fuck's sak the best thing to do is to ignore Moore or just bash him on the points of his substance-lacking films. If this happens, then Moore will scream conspiracy and get more attention. He's already heavy enough to create a gravitational field to force empty-minded lib.s to revolve around him, and the FEC acting against him would only add to this gluttonous idiot's fire.

0 likes

Originally posted by twist Mc Cain is backing Bush.

barely. he's said some pretty degrading (and funny) things about him on 'the daily show with jon stewart!' it's pretty obvious that on a personal level he thinks bush is a dumbass.

0 likes

But what prime-time interrupting news that is...a Republican backing the Republian candidate, even if only barely. What are the odds?

0 likes

BBC News World Edition Last Updated: Saturday, 26 June, 2004, 04:09 GMT 05:09

Bush film opens amid controversy

Michael Moore's documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 has opened across the US amid growing political controversy. Republicans have had few kind words to say about the anti-George Bush, anti-Iraq war documentary, though it has been largely applauded by Democrats.

A conservative group has asked federal election officials to look at whether television adverts for the film violate presidential election law.

The film opened in more than 800 cinemas in the US on Friday.

It broke single-day box-office records at two New York cinemas where it opened on Wednesday, grossing $84,000 (£46,000).

Moore's film starts by recounting Mr Bush's disputed election victory and goes on to allege connections between Mr Bush and influential Saudi families, including the Bin Ladens.

However, it is Mr Bush's response to the 11 September attacks and the subsequent war in Iraq that forms the main focus of the film.

Mr Moore builds a case that Mr Bush stoked public fears to win widespread support for a needless invasion of Iraq.

Both positive and negative reviews have described the film as "propaganda".

Mr Moore himself has said he hoped the film would encourage people to vote in November.

"The reason why I believe I've had this very fortunate success... is because I actually put the entertainment and the art before the politics," insists Mr Moore.

"It's very hard for someone on the professional left to put anything ahead of the politics, and that's why they lose out.

"If you told me this movie, Fahrenheit 9/11, 'it's just an anti-Bush movie', I don't know if I would go see it. ... Why would I waste two hours in the theatre to learn that Bush is bad if I already feel that way?"

Television adverts for the film have prompted conservative advocacy group, Citizens United, to call for a ban on the grounds they are "electioneering communications".

In its complaint to the Federal Election Commission the group said: "Moore produced the work for use as a political weapon against President Bush in the November 2004 presidential election."

Mr Moore said he would "absolutely" fight the complaint.

He said: "It is a blatant attempt on the part of a right wing, Republican-sponsored group to stop people from seeing my movie."

Meanwhile, Mr Moore's critics are fighting back with a book and documentary which question his methods.

Authors David T Hardy and Jason Clarke are set to have their book, entitled Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man, published on Tuesday.

In it, they accuse Mr Moore of "serial mendacity".

Film-maker Michael Wilson also hopes to have his documentary Michael Moore Hates America in cinemas later this year.

0 likes

i only hope citizens united will campaign for the removal of any advertising of books or videos (regnery press, stand up) in the run-up to the election which might be damaging to john kerry--and with as much tenacity as they've gone after fahrenheit 9/11!

oh, wait: they won't.

0 likes

What I dont get is how any US citizen would vote KERRY. The only logic is "bushlite is better than bush". Look at Clintons disgraceful internal/foerign policy record- he is no bush, but not too far off it.

0 likes

Originally posted by Clockwork C What I dont get is how any US citizen would vote KERRY. The only logic is "bushlite is better than bush". Look at Clintons disgraceful internal/foerign policy record- he is no bush, but not too far off it.

Because Ralph Nader doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning, even if every single American who agrees with him votes for him.

I understand what you're saying, but a Presidential election isn't just about foreign or domestic policy. It's also about how any given President shapes the future far beyond his administration. Ronald Reagan's legacy is still very much in effect, because Reagan's appointees to the federal judiciary, particularly the Supreme Court, are still in place. Reagan appointed very young, very reactionary activists to the judiciary, with the purposeful intent of keeping reactionaries in the judiciary long after he was gone. George Herbert Hoover Bush tried to do the same thing.

The Supreme Court is divided 5-4 right now, along party lines. It's no secret that Justice O'Connor, who is the swing vote on the court, wants to retire; Chief Justice Rehnquist may want to retire as well. If Presdident Fuckwit wins re-election, he will appoint the youngest, most reactionary judges he can find. You probably don't follow our Supreme Court decisions over there, but trust me, they're terrible. The court manufactures new law out of the thin air of fascist ideology. The reactionaries on the court are pro-racist, anti-working people, anti-poor, anti-women, anti-gay and anti-environment. Whatever Kerry's shortcoming's may be in foreign policy, we can't afford another Bush term.

That's why progressives are voting for Kerry. It's not because they necessarily agree with everything Kerry stands for, but it's because come November 3, we'll either have President Kerry, or President Bush. Kerry is the only candidate in the race who can beat Bush, and there's too much at stake in this election to vote for a candidate who is clearly going to come in third.

0 likes

Just in case you think there's no meaningful difference between Bush and Kerry:

Last Updated: Jun 12th, 2004 - 19:17:16 Bush Leagues

Bush's Erratic Behavior Worries White House Aides By DOUG THOMPSON & TERESA HAMPTON Jun 4, 2004, 06:15

President George W. Bush’s increasingly erratic behavior and wide mood swings has the halls of the West Wing buzzing lately as aides privately express growing concern over their leader’s state of mind.

In meetings with top aides and administration officials, the President goes from quoting the Bible in one breath to obscene tantrums against the media, Democrats and others that he classifies as “enemies of the state.”

Worried White House aides paint a portrait of a man on the edge, increasingly wary of those who disagree with him and paranoid of a public that no longer trusts his policies in Iraq or at home.

“It reminds me of the Nixon days,” says a longtime GOP political consultant with contacts in the White House. “Everybody is an enemy; everybody is out to get him. That’s the mood over there.”

In interviews with a number of White House staffers who were willing to talk off the record, a picture of an administration under siege has emerged, led by a man who declares his decisions to be “God’s will” and then tells aides to “fuck over” anyone they consider to be an opponent of the administration.

“We’re at war, there’s no doubt about it. What I don’t know anymore is just who the enemy might be,” says one troubled White House aide. “We seem to spend more time trying to destroy John Kerry than al Qaeda and our enemies list just keeps growing and growing.”

Aides say the President gets “hung up on minor details,” micromanaging to the extreme while ignoring the bigger picture. He will spend hours personally reviewing and approving every attack ad against his Democratic opponent and then kiss off a meeting on economic issues.

“This is what is killing us on Iraq,” one aide says. “We lost focus. The President got hung up on the weapons of mass destruction and an unproven link to al Qaeda. We could have found other justifiable reasons for the war but the President insisted the focus stay on those two, tenuous items.”

Aides who raise questions quickly find themselves shut out of access to the President or other top advisors. Among top officials, Bush’s inner circle is shrinking. Secretary of State Colin Powell has fallen out of favor because of his growing doubts about the administration’s war against Iraq.

The President's abrupt dismissal of CIA Directory George Tenet Wednesday night is, aides say, an example of how he works.

"Tenet wanted to quit last year but the President got his back up and wouldn't hear of it," says an aide. "That would have been the opportune time to make a change, not in the middle of an election campaign but when the director challenged the President during the meeting Wednesday, the President cut him off by saying 'that's it George. I cannot abide disloyalty. I want your resignation and I want it now."

Tenet was allowed to resign "voluntarily" and Bush informed his shocked staff of the decision Thursday morning. One aide says the President actually described the decision as "God's will."

God may also be the reason Attorney General John Ashcroft, the administration’s lightning rod because of his questionable actions that critics argue threatens freedoms granted by the Constitution, remains part of the power elite. West Wing staffers call Bush and Ashcroft “the Blues Brothers” because “they’re on a mission from God.”

“The Attorney General is tight with the President because of religion,” says one aide. “They both believe any action is justifiable in the name of God.”

But the President who says he rules at the behest of God can also tongue-lash those he perceives as disloyal, calling them “fucking assholes” in front of other staff, berating one cabinet official in front of others and labeling anyone who disagrees with him “unpatriotic” or “anti-American.”

“The mood here is that we’re under siege, there’s no doubt about it,” says one troubled aide who admits he is looking for work elsewhere. “In this administration, you don’t have to wear a turban or speak Farsi to be an enemy of the United States. All you have to do is disagree with the President.”

The White House did not respond to requests for comment on the record.

© Copyright 2004 by Capitol Hill Blue

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article\_4636.shtml

And you know it's a bad day for Bush when the CIA says he's a fuckup:

CIA insider slams Bush antiterror policies Sunday, June 27, 2004 Posted: 2:53 PM EDT (1853 GMT)

(CNN) -- A book written by a top CIA counterterrorism official alleges that the Bush administration has bungled the war on terror, and because of poor decisions the United States faces a choice in Iraq and Afghanistan "between war and endless war."

Written by a high-level counterterrorism expert and published under the name "Anonymous," the book "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror" is unique in that it was written by an official still working for the CIA.

And with the book slated to be released next week, the author has already appeared -- in shadow -- on a Sunday political talk show to defend his work.

On ABC's "This Week with George Stephanopolous," the author accused some senior officials in the U.S. intelligence community of "a great deal of moral or bureaucratic cowardice" in dealing with the war on terror.

Although he was relatively muted on the topic of George Tenet, the outgoing director of the CIA, the author was unsparing in his criticism of the Bush administration's decision to wait a month after the September 11, 2001, attacks before going to war in Afghanistan.

"We were facing a government, the Taliban, which was basically a rural insurgency trying to govern cities, and al Qaeda, which is a 20-year-old insurgency. If you were going to hit them, sir, you had to hit them on the 11th or the 12th or the 13th."

"By the time the 7th of October rolled along, most of those forces had been dispersed into the countryside, into Pakistan, into Iran, overseas to other countries. There was no 'there' left when we went there," he said.

In his book, the author labeled the invasion of Iraq a "Christmas gift" to Osama bin Laden and said the country has become a "Mujahadeen magnet" attracting Muslims from around the world to fight the occupying U.S. forces.

In an interview on CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer," Secretary of State Colin Powell refused to comment on the author, but said that while there is an insurgency in Iraq, "I think what we are also seeing is that the world is coming together" and developing an "understanding that we have to deal with these kinds of terrorist organizations and not just write it all off to Muslim extremism."

Also appearing on "This Week," national security advisor Condoleezza Rice refused to comment specifically on "Anonymous" because, "I don't know who Anonymous is."

However Rice offered a defense of Bush administration policies in the war on terror and in Iraq.

"What I can say is that a free Iraq, an Iraq in which these killers realize that we're moving toward a democratic future for Iraq which can be the linchpin for a different kind of Middle East, is going to frustrate, not improve, their plans."

The book charges that Saddam Hussein posed no immediate threat to the United States; that the war in Iraq undermined the overall war against terror and actually played into bin Laden's hands; and that the United States is losing that war on terror.

The author also predicts al Qaeda will again attack the continental United States and that it will be even more damaging than the September 11, 2001, terror attacks.

The author says the biggest mistake made after 9/11 was that top intelligence community leaders were not fired.

Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Florida, who serves on the Armed Services and Foreign Relations committees, agreed.

"As we try to prepare ourselves in this new era of terrorism, we have to just assume that we're going to have an attack," Nelson said. "And the only way that we prevent it is to have accurate and timely intelligence."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/27/cia.book/index.html

0 likes

Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr > Originally posted by Clockwork C> What I dont get is how any US citizen would vote KERRY. The only logic is "bushlite is better than bush". Look at Clintons disgraceful internal/foerign policy record- he is no bush, but not too far off it.

Because Ralph Nader doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning, even if every single American who agrees with him votes for him.

I understand what you're saying, but a Presidential election isn't just about foreign or domestic policy. It's also about how any given President shapes the future far beyond his administration. Ronald Reagan's legacy is still very much in effect, because Reagan's appointees to the federal judiciary, particularly the Supreme Court, are still in place. Reagan appointed very young, very reactionary activists to the judiciary, with the purposeful intent of keeping reactionaries in the judiciary long after he was gone. George Herbert Hoover Bush tried to do the same thing.

The Supreme Court is divided 5-4 right now, along party lines. It's no secret that Justice O'Connor, who is the swing vote on the court, wants to retire; Chief Justice Rehnquist may want to retire as well. If Presdident Fuckwit wins re-election, he will appoint the youngest, most reactionary judges he can find. You probably don't follow our Supreme Court decisions over there, but trust me, they're terrible. The court manufactures new law out of the thin air of fascist ideology. The reactionaries on the court are pro-racist, anti-working people, anti-poor, anti-women, anti-gay and anti-environment. Whatever Kerry's shortcoming's may be in foreign policy, we can't afford another Bush term.

That's why progressives are voting for Kerry. It's not because they necessarily agree with everything Kerry stands for, but it's because come November 3, we'll either have President Kerry, or President Bush. Kerry is the only candidate in the race who can beat Bush, and there's too much at stake in this election to vote for a candidate who is clearly going to come in third.

Im sure any decisions along any lines (including appointment of judges, etc) would be better under Naider than Kerry.

I always thought that in a "democracy" you voted for who you WANTED to win an election, not who you thought would win, or stand a chance.

kerry and bush represent the same interests-and those are not the working mans.

Clinton was as good a fascist as bush. NO "progressive" would have voted for the man who murdered Rickey Ray Rector, but they did.

Clintons legacy is not far off regans, Kerrys wont be far off bush.

America doesnt deserve Ralph Naider, the rest of the world does.

0 likes

Originally posted by Clockwork C > Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr> > > > Originally posted by Clockwork C> > What I dont get is how any US citizen would vote KERRY. The only logic is "bushlite is better than bush". Look at Clintons disgraceful internal/foerign policy record- he is no bush, but not too far off it.>

Because Ralph Nader doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of winning, even if every single American who agrees with him votes for him.

I understand what you're saying, but a Presidential election isn't just about foreign or domestic policy. It's also about how any given President shapes the future far beyond his administration. Ronald Reagan's legacy is still very much in effect, because Reagan's appointees to the federal judiciary, particularly the Supreme Court, are still in place. Reagan appointed very young, very reactionary activists to the judiciary, with the purposeful intent of keeping reactionaries in the judiciary long after he was gone. George Herbert Hoover Bush tried to do the same thing.

The Supreme Court is divided 5-4 right now, along party lines. It's no secret that Justice O'Connor, who is the swing vote on the court, wants to retire; Chief Justice Rehnquist may want to retire as well. If Presdident Fuckwit wins re-election, he will appoint the youngest, most reactionary judges he can find. You probably don't follow our Supreme Court decisions over there, but trust me, they're terrible. The court manufactures new law out of the thin air of fascist ideology. The reactionaries on the court are pro-racist, anti-working people, anti-poor, anti-women, anti-gay and anti-environment. Whatever Kerry's shortcoming's may be in foreign policy, we can't afford another Bush term.

That's why progressives are voting for Kerry. It's not because they necessarily agree with everything Kerry stands for, but it's because come November 3, we'll either have President Kerry, or President Bush. Kerry is the only candidate in the race who can beat Bush, and there's too much at stake in this election to vote for a candidate who is clearly going to come in third.

Im sure any decisions along any lines (including appointment of judges, etc) would be better under Naider than Kerry.

I always thought that in a "democracy" you voted for who you WANTED to win an election, not who you thought would win, or stand a chance.

kerry and bush represent the same interests-and those are not the working mans.

Clinton was as good a fascist as bush. NO "progressive" would have voted for the man who murdered Rickey Ray Rector, but they did.

Clintons legacy is not far off regans, Kerrys wont be far off bush.

America doesnt deserve Ralph Naider, the rest of the world does.

True, more or less.

But Ralph Nader will never be President.

Unlike Europe's parliamentary democracies, we have a two-party system; winner takes all. The next President will either be a Democrat, or a Republican.

In the 2000 election, Nader pulled 2.74% of the vote, and that was when he was running as the Green Party candidate. This time around, the Greens have refused to endorse Nader, and are staying out of the race in competitive states (and by the way, I'm a Green, not a Democrat, and I would vote for Kerry even if Nader was running as a Green). So what chance does Nader have of winning? None. What if Nader had the complete, undivided support of every liberal voter in this country? He'd still lose. That's why the Democrats and Republicans both run to the center; they both need the swing voters at the center to win an election. It's how Reagan managed to win-- the "Reagan Democrats." It's how Clnton won. Nader's appeal is to the left, and only the left, and neither the left nor the right are large enough to win an election in a winner-take-all system. Nader will never be President.

And he knows it. Contrary to his bullshit "reason" for running-- that he wants to tilt the election to Kerry by drawing Bush supporters-- his real reason for running is to pull Kerry to the left. So Nader pulls Kerry to the left, and the center goes to Bush, and we have a fascist in the White House for another four years. And fascists running the judiciary for another 40 years. And fascists in the legislature giving Bush whatever fascist legislation he wants. All for what-- so the left can say that it voted for someone who had no chance of winning?

Kerry's run to the center does indeed have him sounding like Bush-- just like Gore's run in 2000 did. It's why Democrats talk about fiscal responsibility and a strong defense, and a cold heartless bastard like Bush runs as a "compassionate conservative." But they're not the same. One issue: Kerry is against gay marriage, but for civil unions. Bush will push for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. So Kerry's stand isn't the best possible stand, but it's a hell of a lot better than Bush's. It will be like that across the board. The time to pull Kerry to the left isn't now, before the election. Now is the time for the left to support Kerry. And to let him know where his support lies. After the election, if President Kerry strays to the right, is when the left has the duty to pull him left.

0 likes

in a perfect world id be able to vote for nader, i agree with him more than kerry.....its just a shame that a two party system is forcing us to have to choose between the "lesser of two evils"..that cliched phrase...i think the presence of a third party is crucial, but i think its even more crucial that this year bush be removed from office..

0 likes

agreed. i'm a green, as well, but it's more important to me to get bush out of office. i'll vote for nader if kerry has a nice lead in florida. considering what happened in florida in 2000, and who our governor is, i don't see that happening. so kerry it is (most likely).

if hell froze over and nader became president he'd be pretty ineffective, mind you. he's a good advocate, but to lead a country (any country) you have to have more balls, and being a bit of a wanker or wankette doesn't hurt, either. and what's he going to do: ride his bicycle to meetings in europe or asia?

0 likes

Originally posted by AgentWood and what's he going to do: ride his bicycle to meetings in europe or asia?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

0 likes

I wont bother.

Democracy my arse.

0 likes

I went to see this film, and it was as i expected. More of a "vote democrat" campaign video than "this is what is fucked up with your psuedo democracy". he is very selective with the truth (not a patch on most reactionaries mind!). the best parts are when he follows army recruiters around a shopping centre, it shows the perversity of militarism up really well. He is at his best with "the man on the street", chatting with families of dead soldiers,doing "vox pops" . His other strengths are editing and splicing in old "lets smoke him out" cop bmovie footage for comedic effect.

His weakness is writing.the film comes off as a collection of thoughts on neocons rather than an articulate counteract tot their rethoric. He also descends to NeoCons levels of selective reportage - for instance , the coalition of the willing is shown as a collection of south pacific islands, complete with images of ridicule, rather than saying “heres Britain, Poland, Spain, Australia, Japan” listing their respective motivations for going to war, showing the 90%disapproval in Spain prior to the war, the actual percentage of nato states willing to commit troops, etc.

Blair is continently let off too. I figure all this is an effort to concentrate on the USA war effort and US soldiers rather than blair&other NeoCons, but this sequence summed up the selective nature of the Film.

Nothing about Bushs disastrous economic policy either. The part about him being on holiday 40%of the time and missing intelligence briefings as a result prior to September 11 was interesting. There could have been a better follow up to the relationship between the Saudis and US Republicans too by pointing out what a brutal country it really is.

The truth is on the side of the anti war/leftist movement. The facts, the figures, and the anecdotes too, theres no need to delve into the bullshit negative campaigning that the right wing have perfected down through the decades.

It’s a pity to see Moore back Kerry and not Naider. Its good to see John Edwards picked as his running mate – best of a bad bunch.

0 likes

There was a hilarious send-up of "Fahrenheit" on Conan last night, about "the worst Bush of them all".......Billy Bush, from Access Hollywood. (MM was even in it, apologizing that he didn't recognize Billy was the real threat of the family).

Apparently the Bushes' ties to the Saudi Royal Family mean that Access, and all other entertainment-news shows, are owned by the Saudis, meaning that Billy was able to get a job there. I'm not doing it justice, but it was funny as hell (The weird gunplay during the Will Ferrell interview had me in fits as well) :rofl:

Almost makes me forget the absence of the "Walker Texas Ranger" lever....almost :cry:

0 likes

i saw the movie on monday, and im planning to go see it again, it was great:thumb: , but my seats werent that great and there was a little bit i missed, i was in the front section of seats, to read something on the screen you really had to turn your head:thumb:

0 likes

Originally posted by Clockwork C I wont bother.Democracy my arse.

July 2, 2004

Suicide Right on the Stage The Demise of the Green Party By JEFFREY ST. CLAIR

"Ignorance of remote causes disposeth men to attribute all events to the causes immediate and instrumental: for these are all the causes they perceive."

Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan (1651)

So this is what alternative politics in America has degenerated to: Pat LaMarche, the newly minted vice-presidential candidate of the Green Party, has announced that she might not even vote for herself in the fall elections. The Greens, always a skittish bunch, are so traumatized by the specter of Bush and Cheney that they've offered up their own party-born out of rage at decades of betrayal by Democrats from Carter to Clinton-as a kind of private contractor for the benefit of those very same Democratic Party power brokers.

Take a close look at what LaMarche, a not-ready-for-primetime radio "personality", had to say to say to her hometown newspaper in Maine only days after winning the nomination in Milwaukee.

"If the race is tight, I'll vote for Kerry," LaMarche said. "I love my country. But we should ask them that, because if Dick Cheney loved his country, he wouldn't be voting for himself."

This is the sound a political party makes as it commits suicide.

LaMarche's running mate, David Cobb, is no better. The obscure lawyer from Texas is a dull and spiritless candidate, handled by some truly unsavory advisors (more on them in future columns). In action, he functions as a kind of bland political zombie from a Roger Corman flick, lumbering across the progressive landscape from Oregon to Wisconsin and back again, to the tune of his liberal political masters. The tune? The familiar refrain of "Anybody But Bush."

Bland, yes, but it worked, thanks to the likes of Medea Benjamin and the pompous Ted Glick. At their recent convention in Milwaukee, the Green Party, heavily infiltrated by Democratic Party operatives, rejected the ticket of Ralph Nader and Peter Camejo in favor of the sour campaign of Cobb and LaMarche.

This won't harm Nader much. Indeed, it may liberate him. Free of the Green Party's encyclopedic platform, Nader can now distill the themes of his campaign to the most potent elements (war, jobs, corruption and the environment) and, unburdened by the concern of party building, Nader can, if he chooses (and he should), focus his efforts only on the battleground states, where Kerry must either confront Nader's issues or lose the election. It's as simple as that.

The fatal damage in Milwaukee was done to the Green Party itself, where Cobb and his cohort sabotaged the aspirations of thousands of Greens who had labored for more than a decade to build their party into a national political force, capable of winning a few seats here and there and, even more importantly, defeating Democrats who behave like Republicans (cf: Al Gore). The fruits of all that intense grassroots organizing were destroyed in an instant.

But behold: the rebuffed Nader continues to poll nearly 6 percent without the Green Party behind him. Yet, you can't discern Cobb's numbers with an electron microscope. Of course, the pungent irony is that's precisely the way Cobb and his backers want it.

So, the Greens have succeeded in doing what seemed impossible only months ago: they've made the quixotic campaign of Dennis Kucinich, which still chugs along claiming micro-victory after micro-victory long after the close of the primaries (indeed there have been more victories after the polls closed than before), seem like a credible political endeavor. Of course, Cobb and Kucinich share the same objective function: to lure progressives away from Nader and back into the plantation house of the Democratic Party.

But at least Kucinich remained a Democrat. Cobb and LaMarche were supposedly leaders of a political party that formed not in opposition to Republicans, but from outrage at the rightward and irredeemable drift of the Democratic Party. Apparently, the Green Party has not only lost its mind, it's lost its entire central nervous system, including the spine--especially its spine. They've surrendered to the politics of fear. And once the white flag is raised there's little chance of recovering the ground you've given up.

Always nearly immobilized by an asphyxiating devotion to political correctness, the Green Party has now taken this obsession to its logical extreme by nominating a pair of political cretins at the top of its ticket. Under the false banner of the Cobb/Lamarche campaign, the Green Party is instructing its members to vote for its candidates only in states where their vote doesn't matter. This is the so-called safe state strategy.

Safe? Safe for whom? Not for Afghan or Iraqi citizens. Not for US troops. Not for the detainees at Gitmo, Bagram or Abu Ghraib. Not for migrant farm laborers or steelworkers. Not for the welfare mother or the 2 million souls rotting in American prisons. Not for the spotted owl, the streams of Appalachia or the rainforests of Alaska. Not for the residents of Cancer Alley or the peasants of Colombia or teen age girls slaving away in Nike's toxic Indonesia sneaker mills. Not for the Palestinians, the Lakota of Pine Ridge or elementary school students from the hard streets of Oakland. Not for the hopeless denizens of death row or three strikers in for life for a gram of crack or gays hoping to unite in marriage or even cancer patients seeking simple herbal relief from excruciating pain.

A crucial player in this unsavory affair was Medea Benjamin, the diva of Global Exchange. In rationalizing her decisive vote backing the Cobb/Lamarche ticket, Benjamin emitted this profundity: "John Kerry is not George Bush." Apparently, that tiny sliver of genetic variation is all it comes down to these days.

Yes, Medea, you're right. Kerry is simply Kerry, a bona fide war criminal, with a record of political infamy that is just as malodorous as that of George Bush-only it's longer. Over the past four years, Kerry has been complicit in the enactment of some of Bush's most disgusting policies. Indeed, these days Kerry offers himself up mainly as a more competent manager of the Bush agenda, a steadier hand on the helm of the Empire.

Kerry stands unapologetically for nearly every issue that caused the Greens to bolt the Democratic Party. He was present at the founding of the Democratic Leadership Council, the claque of neo-liberals that seeks to purge the Democratic Party of every last vestige of progressivism and reshape it as a hawkish and pro-business party with a soft spot for abortion-essentially a stingier version of the Rockefeller Republicans.

Kerry enthusiastically backed both of Bush's wars and now, at the very moment Bush is signaling a desire to retreat, the senator is calling for 25,000 new troops to be sent to Iraq, where under his plan the US military will remain entrenched for at least the next four years.

Kerry supported the Patriot Act without reservation or even much contemplation. Lest you conclude that this was a momentary aberration sparked by the post-9/11 hysteria, consider the fact that Kerry also voted for the two Clinton-era predecessors to the Patriot Act, the 1994 Crime Bill and the 1996 CounterTerrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act, which were just as bad if not worse.

Although he regularly hams it up in photo-ops with the barons of big labor, Kerry voted for NAFTA, the WTO and virtually every other job-slashing trade pact that has come before the senate. Kerry, who has courted and won the endorsement of nearly every police association in the nation, regularly calls for putting another 100,000 cops on the streets and even tougher criminal sanctions against victimless crimes. He refused to reconsider his fervid support for the insane war on drug users, which has destroyed families and clogged our prisons with more than 2 million people, many of them young black men, whom the draconian drug laws specifically target without mercy. Kerry backs the racist death penalty and minimum mandatory sentences.

A couple of weeks ago the Congressional Black Caucus jeered Ralph Nader when he spoke to them about his campaign, a bizarre reception for a man who has been a tireless advocate for civil rights and poor people. If this group of legislators actually cared about the welfare of their constituents, instead of merely their sinecure within the party, they would hire the twin Dominatrixes of Abu Ghraib, Lynddie England and Sabrina Harman, to clip a dogleash on Kerry (who disgustingly said he'd like to become the second black president) to interrogate him about his dreadful record on civil rights when he comes calling seeking their support. Of course, they won't. The Congressional Black Caucus is perhaps the only political conclave with clout as vaporous as the Greens.

Kerry, and his top advisor Rand Beers (a veteran of the Clinton and Bush National Security Council), crafted Plan Colombia, the brutal and toxic war on Andean peasants, waged for the benefit of oil companies under the phoney rubric of drug eradication. His scrawny energy plan, devoid of any real emphasis on conservation or solar power, calls for more off-shore oil leasing, widespread natural gas drilling, transcontinental pipelines and strip-mining for coal. His deficit-fixated economic policy, scripted by Wall Street bond tycoon Robert Rubin, is even more austere than Clinton's.

Like Joe Lieberman, Kerry markets himself as a cultural prude, regularly chiding teens about the kind of clothes they wear, the music they listen to and the movies they watch. But even Lieberman didn't go so far as to support the censorious Communications Decency Act. Kerry did. Fortunately, even this Supreme Court had the sense to strike the law down, ruling that it trampled across the First Amendment.

All of this is standard fare for contemporary Democrats. But Kerry always goes the extra mile. The senator cast a crucial vote for Clinton's wretched bill to dismantle welfare for poor mothers and their children and, despite mounting evidence to the contrary, he continues to hail the mean-spirited measure as a tremendous success.

This is merely a precis of the grim resumé of the man the Green Party now supports through the proxy candidacy of David Cobb. The message of the Cobb campaign is: a vote for Cobb is a vote for Kerry. Translation: a vote for Cobb is a vote for war, and everything that goes along with it.

It's also a vote for political self-annihilation. David Cobb is the Jim Jones of the Green Party. Form a line and pass the Kool-Aid.

Risk free voting? I wouldn't bet your life on it.

**************************** and for a differing viewpoint from the Greens... ****************************

IN MY OPINION Xander Patterson Tuesday, July 06, 2004 Greens chose pragmatism over protest

At the national Green Convention in June, I joined the majority of Greens in Oregon and nationally in choosing to nominate David Cobb for president rather than endorse Ralph Nader. I did so not for lack of appreciation for what Nader has done for the country over decades or what he has done to grow the Green Party in 1996 and 2000.

I and many Greens chose David Cobb because we and Nader have very different visions of the role of minor parties in our political system, especially in this crucial election year.

That differences would arise is not surprising because our antiquated electoral system puts minor parties in a very difficult position: It renders them either irrelevant or spoilers. It is very difficult for minor parties to grow into winners because the more votes they get, the more they alienate their most likely supporters.

This system has given two parties, no matter how grossly inadequate they may be, a lock on power for 150 years. The positive role that minor parties have played is to introduce new ideas and to pressure a major party to adopt them. For example, much of the New Deal was dreamed up by the Socialists and appropriated by Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Nader's potential to follow this model is very appealing to many Greens. He has the unrivaled stature to get the progressive agenda into the debate and the threat of spoiling to pressure the Democrats into adopting portions of it.

Cobb supporters have a different goal for the Green Party, however. We aren't simply trying to make the Democrats more progressive. We are trying to release America from the two-party headlock on power and to open a political free market in which any party with popular support may meaningfully participate.

To grow as a party and achieve this goal, Greens need to be a pragmatic choice, not merely a symbolic protest vote. We need to show that we care about the real-world consequences of our actions.

For this presidential election, that means we must acknowledge that, as much as we deplore Kerry Democrats' stance on many fundamental issues (Iraq, the Patriot Act, the World Trade Organization, to name a few), Bush is not some Tweedledee. By choosing Cobb over Nader, Greens planted themselves firmly in the Anybody But Bush coalition, for the good of the country -- and the party.

In 2000, Greens hoped to get 5 percent of the vote in order to get federal campaign funds in 2004. This year, Cobb will concentrate on building the party and supporting local candidates in the 35 to 40 states where the convolutions of our system make a vote for him "safe." Most importantly, Cobb will aggressively promote electoral reforms such as Instant Runoff Voting (see fairvote.org) that allow voters to rank their preferences, to vote their consciences without throwing their votes away or inadvertently supporting candidates they view as the greater of two evils.

Each of the past three election cycles Greens have doubled the number of states with party organizations (now 44), with ballot access (now 22) and elected officials (now more than 200). Even in this difficult election year we continue to be Green and growing.

Xander Patterson of Portland served as an Oregon state delegate to the Green Party convention in Milwaukee, Wis.

0 likes

I have seen the movie last night, well, let's say that when you see it, you seriously wonder what the hell are the american troops doing in Iraq.

It's a little embarassing to note that all the 9/11 events actually profit to Mr Bush... he's doing a pipeline in Afganistan and he's part owner of a weapon builder company... :scratch:

Sure, movie is anti-bush, nobody can claim that it's showing both sides of the story, but damn it, they tried to destitute Clinton because he didn't want to admit he got a blow-job from Monica Lewinski, and now, you tell me what Bush did is ok?

0 likes

well can anyone whos seen this docu/film ,hand on heart say that they was shocked or suprised at what was/is going on. i personally think that voting for any politician in any country is bordering upon a futile act,yes the faces and the names may change but in reality nothing does,the same market forces that drive the world we live in are ever present no matter what. and it is that alone that governs world politics,if people get killed in the process then tough shit thats the politician way of thinking. i could rant on all night about politicians ect but im tired and will rise to the fighjt in the morn.

0 likes

I enjoyed the film. Yes, it is "selective" but if it wasn't the film would be about 6 hours long.

It just confirmed everything I thought about Bush - a complete idiot with a lot of power... scary...

0 likes

Yeah, we all know that staying in front of kids for 7 mins after your cheif of staff just told you that the country is under attack is always a good thing ;)

This prooves something, anybody can be president, anyways, like in all government, most decisions are taken by non-elected civil servant...

0 likes

i dunno if any of yall are reading the 9/11 report but but bush is quoted in it saying something like all the sudden he noticed all the photographers and reporters beepers and phones lighting up and going off and he wanted to project an image of calmness to them:rolleyes: ....

in the dallas morning news they had a thing on fahrenheit 9/11, and it said the footage shown of him in the film while recieving word of the attack in the classroom was slowed down for dramatic effect in the editing room:confused2: dunno if thats true, again, i need to see the movie again..

my uncle is in the film industry, and when we went to see it he told me about this one movie that everyones expecting to bring up just as much controversy(if not more) than fahrenheit 9/11, i cant remember the title of the movie, but its about the republican party turning a complete idiot into a candidate for governor of texas and then going on to the big election for president... we saw a trailer for it before fahrenheit 9/11, you guys may have seen it... but the talk within the industry is that its going to be really controversial when its released before the actual election..

0 likes

so...they are already filming Dubya's biography?!?!?!:eek3::p

0 likes

its not necessarily a biography, but its not hard to tell what real-life politician's career the story is playing off of when you see the trailer:laugh:

well i finally found the title and some info on the movie.. its called silver city, and its not in texas and previously recalled, its in colorado..

the actor playing the dubya-esque character is chris cooper..

this is the description of the plot on IMDB.com

"The discovery of a corpse threatens to unravel a bumbling local politician's campaign for governor of Colorado."

0 likes

Originally posted by mike powell well can anyone whos seen this docu/film ,hand on heart say that they was shocked or suprised at what was/is going on.i personally think that voting for any politician in any country is bordering upon a futile act,yes the faces and the names may change but in reality nothing does,the same market forces that drive the world we live in are ever present no matter what.and it is that alone that governs world politics,if people get killed in the process then tough shit thats the politician way of thinking.i could rant on all night about politicians ect but im tired and will rise to the fighjt in the morn.

if you don't vote for somebody, then those you disagree with will, and then what right have you to complain? if you don't stand up for what you believe in, you can't expect anyone to listen to and act on your wants and needs.

also, if nobody votes, we might as well live in a dictatorship or oligarchy. remember how south african blacks stood in line for up to four days when they were given the right to vote? we complain how there's no one to vote for; how there's no point in voting. yet people in some countries would literally die for this right. it upsets me when people take the right to vote for granted.

0 likes

You're leaving NewOrderOnline

This link goes to an external website we don't operate, which has its own privacy policy and terms.

Destination:
Continue ↗