Skip to content

Christopher Hitchens kicks Jabba The Movie Maker right square in the balls :rofl:

Archived

49 replies · 920 views

This is an archived legacy thread. Replies are closed, but the discussion is preserved.

Unfairenheit 9/11 The lies of Michael Moore. By Christopher Hitchens Posted Monday, June 21, 2004, at 12:26 PM PT

One of the many problems with the American left, and indeed of the American left, has been its image and self-image as something rather too solemn, mirthless, herbivorous, dull, monochrome, righteous, and boring. How many times, in my old days at The Nation magazine, did I hear wistful and semienvious ruminations? Where was the radical Firing Line show? Who will be our Rush Limbaugh? I used privately to hope that the emphasis, if the comrades ever got around to it, would be on the first of those and not the second. But the meetings themselves were so mind-numbing and lugubrious that I thought the danger of success on either front was infinitely slight.

Nonetheless, it seems that an answer to this long-felt need is finally beginning to emerge. I exempt Al Franken's unintentionally funny Air America network, to which I gave a couple of interviews in its early days. There, one could hear the reassuring noise of collapsing scenery and tripped-over wires and be reminded once again that correct politics and smooth media presentation are not even distant cousins. With Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, however, an entirely new note has been struck. Here we glimpse a possible fusion between the turgid routines of MoveOn.org and the filmic standards, if not exactly the filmic skills, of Sergei Eisenstein or Leni Riefenstahl.

To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery.

In late 2002, almost a year after the al-Qaida assault on American society, I had an onstage debate with Michael Moore at the Telluride Film Festival. In the course of this exchange, he stated his view that Osama Bin Laden should be considered innocent until proven guilty. This was, he said, the American way. The intervention in Afghanistan, he maintained, had been at least to that extent unjustified. Something—I cannot guess what, since we knew as much then as we do now—has since apparently persuaded Moore that Osama Bin Laden is as guilty as hell. Indeed, Osama is suddenly so guilty and so all-powerful that any other discussion of any other topic is a dangerous "distraction" from the fight against him. I believe that I understand the convenience of this late conversion.

Fahrenheit 9/11 makes the following points about Bin Laden and about Afghanistan, and makes them in this order:

  1. The Bin Laden family (if not exactly Osama himself) had a close if convoluted business relationship with the Bush family, through the Carlyle Group.

  2. Saudi capital in general is a very large element of foreign investment in the United States.

  3. The Unocal company in Texas had been willing to discuss a gas pipeline across Afghanistan with the Taliban, as had other vested interests.

  4. The Bush administration sent far too few ground troops to Afghanistan and thus allowed far too many Taliban and al-Qaida members to escape.

  5. The Afghan government, in supporting the coalition in Iraq, was purely risible in that its non-army was purely American.

  6. The American lives lost in Afghanistan have been wasted. (This I divine from the fact that this supposedly "antiwar" film is dedicated ruefully to all those killed there, as well as in Iraq.)

It must be evident to anyone, despite the rapid-fire way in which Moore's direction eases the audience hastily past the contradictions, that these discrepant scatter shots do not cohere at any point. Either the Saudis run U.S. policy (through family ties or overwhelming economic interest), or they do not. As allies and patrons of the Taliban regime, they either opposed Bush's removal of it, or they did not. (They opposed the removal, all right: They wouldn't even let Tony Blair land his own plane on their soil at the time of the operation.) Either we sent too many troops, or were wrong to send any at all—the latter was Moore's view as late as 2002—or we sent too few. If we were going to make sure no Taliban or al-Qaida forces survived or escaped, we would have had to be more ruthless than I suspect that Mr. Moore is really recommending. And these are simply observations on what is "in" the film. If we turn to the facts that are deliberately left out, we discover that there is an emerging Afghan army, that the country is now a joint NATO responsibility and thus under the protection of the broadest military alliance in history, that it has a new constitution and is preparing against hellish odds to hold a general election, and that at least a million and a half of its former refugees have opted to return. I don't think a pipeline is being constructed yet, not that Afghanistan couldn't do with a pipeline. But a highway from Kabul to Kandahar—an insurance against warlordism and a condition of nation-building—is nearing completion with infinite labor and risk. We also discover that the parties of the Afghan secular left—like the parties of the Iraqi secular left—are strongly in favor of the regime change. But this is not the sort of irony in which Moore chooses to deal.

He prefers leaden sarcasm to irony and, indeed, may not appreciate the distinction. In a long and paranoid (and tedious) section at the opening of the film, he makes heavy innuendoes about the flights that took members of the Bin Laden family out of the country after Sept. 11. I banged on about this myself at the time and wrote a Nation column drawing attention to the groveling Larry King interview with the insufferable Prince Bandar, which Moore excerpts. However, recent developments have not been kind to our Mike. In the interval between Moore's triumph at Cannes and the release of the film in the United States, the 9/11 commission has found nothing to complain of in the timing or arrangement of the flights. And Richard Clarke, Bush's former chief of counterterrorism, has come forward to say that he, and he alone, took the responsibility for authorizing those Saudi departures. This might not matter so much to the ethos of Fahrenheit 9/11, except that—as you might expect—Clarke is presented throughout as the brow-furrowed ethical hero of the entire post-9/11 moment. And it does not seem very likely that, in his open admission about the Bin Laden family evacuation, Clarke is taking a fall, or a spear in the chest, for the Bush administration. So, that's another bust for this windy and bloated cinematic "key to all mythologies."

A film that bases itself on a big lie and a big misrepresentation can only sustain itself by a dizzying succession of smaller falsehoods, beefed up by wilder and (if possible) yet more-contradictory claims. President Bush is accused of taking too many lazy vacations. (What is that about, by the way? Isn't he supposed to be an unceasing planner for future aggressive wars?) But the shot of him "relaxing at Camp David" shows him side by side with Tony Blair. I say "shows," even though this photograph is on-screen so briefly that if you sneeze or blink, you won't recognize the other figure. A meeting with the prime minister of the United Kingdom, or at least with this prime minister, is not a goof-off.

The president is also captured in a well-worn TV news clip, on a golf course, making a boilerplate response to a question on terrorism and then asking the reporters to watch his drive. Well, that's what you get if you catch the president on a golf course. If Eisenhower had done this, as he often did, it would have been presented as calm statesmanship. If Clinton had done it, as he often did, it would have shown his charm. More interesting is the moment where Bush is shown frozen on his chair at the infant school in Florida, looking stunned and useless for seven whole minutes after the news of the second plane on 9/11. Many are those who say that he should have leaped from his stool, adopted a Russell Crowe stance, and gone to work. I could even wish that myself. But if he had done any such thing then (as he did with his "Let's roll" and "dead or alive" remarks a month later), half the Michael Moore community would now be calling him a man who went to war on a hectic, crazed impulse. The other half would be saying what they already say—that he knew the attack was coming, was using it to cement himself in power, and couldn't wait to get on with his coup. This is the line taken by Gore Vidal and by a scandalous recent book that also revives the charge of FDR's collusion over Pearl Harbor. At least Moore's film should put the shameful purveyors of that last theory back in their paranoid box.

But it won't because it encourages their half-baked fantasies in so many other ways. We are introduced to Iraq, "a sovereign nation." (In fact, Iraq's "sovereignty" was heavily qualified by international sanctions, however questionable, which reflected its noncompliance with important U.N. resolutions.) In this peaceable kingdom, according to Moore's flabbergasting choice of film shots, children are flying little kites, shoppers are smiling in the sunshine, and the gentle rhythms of life are undisturbed. Then—wham! From the night sky come the terror weapons of American imperialism. Watching the clips Moore uses, and recalling them well, I can recognize various Saddam palaces and military and police centers getting the treatment. But these sites are not identified as such. In fact, I don't think Al Jazeera would, on a bad day, have transmitted anything so utterly propagandistic. You would also be led to think that the term "civilian casualty" had not even been in the Iraqi vocabulary until March 2003. I remember asking Moore at Telluride if he was or was not a pacifist. He would not give a straight answer then, and he doesn't now, either. I'll just say that the "insurgent" side is presented in this film as justifiably outraged, whereas the 30-year record of Baathist war crimes and repression and aggression is not mentioned once. (Actually, that's not quite right. It is briefly mentioned but only, and smarmily, because of the bad period when Washington preferred Saddam to the likewise unmentioned Ayatollah Khomeini.)

That this—his pro-American moment—was the worst Moore could possibly say of Saddam's depravity is further suggested by some astonishing falsifications. Moore asserts that Iraq under Saddam had never attacked or killed or even threatened (his words) any American. I never quite know whether Moore is as ignorant as he looks, or even if that would be humanly possible. Baghdad was for years the official, undisguised home address of Abu Nidal, then the most-wanted gangster in the world, who had been sentenced to death even by the PLO and had blown up airports in Vienna* and Rome. Baghdad was the safe house for the man whose "operation" murdered Leon Klinghoffer. Saddam boasted publicly of his financial sponsorship of suicide bombers in Israel. (Quite a few Americans of all denominations walk the streets of Jerusalem.) In 1991, a large number of Western hostages were taken by the hideous Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and held in terrible conditions for a long time. After that same invasion was repelled—Saddam having killed quite a few Americans and Egyptians and Syrians and Brits in the meantime and having threatened to kill many more—the Iraqi secret police were caught trying to murder former President Bush during his visit to Kuwait. Never mind whether his son should take that personally. (Though why should he not?) Should you and I not resent any foreign dictatorship that attempts to kill one of our retired chief executives? (President Clinton certainly took it that way: He ordered the destruction by cruise missiles of the Baathist "security" headquarters.) Iraqi forces fired, every day, for 10 years, on the aircraft that patrolled the no-fly zones and staved off further genocide in the north and south of the country. In 1993, a certain Mr. Yasin helped mix the chemicals for the bomb at the World Trade Center and then skipped to Iraq, where he remained a guest of the state until the overthrow of Saddam. In 2001, Saddam's regime was the only one in the region that openly celebrated the attacks on New York and Washington and described them as just the beginning of a larger revenge. Its official media regularly spewed out a stream of anti-Semitic incitement. I think one might describe that as "threatening," even if one was narrow enough to think that anti-Semitism only menaces Jews. And it was after, and not before, the 9/11 attacks that Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi moved from Afghanistan to Baghdad and began to plan his now very open and lethal design for a holy and ethnic civil war. On Dec. 1, 2003, the New York Times reported—and the David Kay report had established—that Saddam had been secretly negotiating with the "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-il in a series of secret meetings in Syria, as late as the spring of 2003, to buy a North Korean missile system, and missile-production system, right off the shelf. (This attempt was not uncovered until after the fall of Baghdad, the coalition's presence having meanwhile put an end to the negotiations.)

Thus, in spite of the film's loaded bias against the work of the mind, you can grasp even while watching it that Michael Moore has just said, in so many words, the one thing that no reflective or informed person can possibly believe: that Saddam Hussein was no problem. No problem at all. Now look again at the facts I have cited above. If these things had been allowed to happen under any other administration, you can be sure that Moore and others would now glibly be accusing the president of ignoring, or of having ignored, some fairly unmistakable "warnings."

The same "let's have it both ways" opportunism infects his treatment of another very serious subject, namely domestic counterterrorist policy. From being accused of overlooking too many warnings—not exactly an original point—the administration is now lavishly taunted for issuing too many. (Would there not have been "fear" if the harbingers of 9/11 had been taken seriously?) We are shown some American civilians who have had absurd encounters with idiotic "security" staff. (Have you ever met anyone who can't tell such a story?) Then we are immediately shown underfunded police departments that don't have the means or the manpower to do any stop-and-search: a power suddenly demanded by Moore on their behalf that we know by definition would at least lead to some ridiculous interrogations. Finally, Moore complains that there isn't enough intrusion and confiscation at airports and says that it is appalling that every air traveler is not forcibly relieved of all matches and lighters. (Cue mood music for sinister influence of Big Tobacco.) So—he wants even more pocket-rummaging by airport officials? Uh, no, not exactly. But by this stage, who's counting? Moore is having it three ways and asserting everything and nothing. Again—simply not serious.

Circling back to where we began, why did Moore's evil Saudis not join "the Coalition of the Willing"? Why instead did they force the United States to switch its regional military headquarters to Qatar? If the Bush family and the al-Saud dynasty live in each other's pockets, as is alleged in a sort of vulgar sub-Brechtian scene with Arab headdresses replacing top hats, then how come the most reactionary regime in the region has been powerless to stop Bush from demolishing its clone in Kabul and its buffer regime in Baghdad? The Saudis hate, as they did in 1991, the idea that Iraq's recuperated oil industry might challenge their near-monopoly. They fear the liberation of the Shiite Muslims they so despise. To make these elementary points is to collapse the whole pathetic edifice of the film's "theory." Perhaps Moore prefers the pro-Saudi Kissinger/Scowcroft plan for the Middle East, where stability trumps every other consideration and where one dare not upset the local house of cards, or killing-field of Kurds? This would be a strange position for a purported radical. Then again, perhaps he does not take this conservative line because his real pitch is not to any audience member with a serious interest in foreign policy. It is to the provincial isolationist.

I have already said that Moore's film has the staunch courage to mock Bush for his verbal infelicity. Yet it's much, much braver than that. From Fahrenheit 9/11 you can glean even more astounding and hidden disclosures, such as the capitalist nature of American society, the existence of Eisenhower's "military-industrial complex," and the use of "spin" in the presentation of our politicians. It's high time someone had the nerve to point this out. There's more. Poor people often volunteer to join the army, and some of them are duskier than others. Betcha didn't know that. Back in Flint, Mich., Moore feels on safe ground. There are no martyred rabbits this time. Instead, it's the poor and black who shoulder the packs and rifles and march away. I won't dwell on the fact that black Americans have fought for almost a century and a half, from insisting on their right to join the U.S. Army and fight in the Civil War to the right to have a desegregated Army that set the pace for post-1945 civil rights. I'll merely ask this: In the film, Moore says loudly and repeatedly that not enough troops were sent to garrison Afghanistan and Iraq. (This is now a favorite cleverness of those who were, in the first place, against sending any soldiers at all.) Well, where does he think those needful heroes and heroines would have come from? Does he favor a draft—the most statist and oppressive solution? Does he think that only hapless and gullible proles sign up for the Marines? Does he think—as he seems to suggest—that parents can "send" their children, as he stupidly asks elected members of Congress to do? Would he have abandoned Gettysburg because the Union allowed civilians to pay proxies to serve in their place? Would he have supported the antidraft (and very antiblack) riots against Lincoln in New York? After a point, one realizes that it's a waste of time asking him questions of this sort. It would be too much like taking him seriously. He'll just try anything once and see if it floats or flies or gets a cheer.

Indeed, Moore's affected and ostentatious concern for black America is one of the most suspect ingredients of his pitch package. In a recent interview, he yelled that if the hijacked civilians of 9/11 had been black, they would have fought back, unlike the stupid and presumably cowardly white men and women (and children). Never mind for now how many black passengers were on those planes—we happen to know what Moore does not care to mention: that Todd Beamer and a few of his co-passengers, shouting "Let's roll," rammed the hijackers with a trolley, fought them tooth and nail, and helped bring down a United Airlines plane, in Pennsylvania, that was speeding toward either the White House or the Capitol. There are no words for real, impromptu bravery like that, which helped save our republic from worse than actually befell. The Pennsylvania drama also reminds one of the self-evident fact that this war is not fought only "overseas" or in uniform, but is being brought to our cities. Yet Moore is a silly and shady man who does not recognize courage of any sort even when he sees it because he cannot summon it in himself. To him, easy applause, in front of credulous audiences, is everything.

Moore has announced that he won't even appear on TV shows where he might face hostile questioning. I notice from the New York Times of June 20 that he has pompously established a rapid response team, and a fact-checking staff, and some tough lawyers, to bulwark himself against attack. He'll sue, Moore says, if anyone insults him or his pet. Some right-wing hack groups, I gather, are planning to bring pressure on their local movie theaters to drop the film. How dumb or thuggish do you have to be in order to counter one form of stupidity and cowardice with another? By all means go and see this terrible film, and take your friends, and if the fools in the audience strike up one cry, in favor of surrender or defeat, feel free to join in the conversation.

However, I think we can agree that the film is so flat-out phony that "fact-checking" is beside the point. And as for the scary lawyers—get a life, or maybe see me in court. But I offer this, to Moore and to his rapid response rabble. Any time, Michael my boy. Let's redo Telluride. Any show. Any place. Any platform. Let's see what you're made of.

Some people soothingly say that one should relax about all this. It's only a movie. No biggie. It's no worse than the tomfoolery of Oliver Stone. It's kick-ass entertainment. It might even help get out "the youth vote." Yeah, well, I have myself written and presented about a dozen low-budget made-for-TV documentaries, on subjects as various as Mother Teresa and Bill Clinton and the Cyprus crisis, and I also helped produce a slightly more polished one on Henry Kissinger that was shown in movie theaters. So I know, thanks, before you tell me, that a documentary must have a "POV" or point of view and that it must also impose a narrative line. But if you leave out absolutely everything that might give your "narrative" a problem and throw in any old rubbish that might support it, and you don't even care that one bit of that rubbish flatly contradicts the next bit, and you give no chance to those who might differ, then you have betrayed your craft. If you flatter and fawn upon your potential audience, I might add, you are patronizing them and insulting them. By the same token, if I write an article and I quote somebody and for space reasons put in an ellipsis like this (…), I swear on my children that I am not leaving out anything that, if quoted in full, would alter the original meaning or its significance. Those who violate this pact with readers or viewers are to be despised. At no point does Michael Moore make the smallest effort to be objective. At no moment does he pass up the chance of a cheap sneer or a jeer. He pitilessly focuses his camera, for minutes after he should have turned it off, on a distraught and bereaved mother whose grief we have already shared. (But then, this is the guy who thought it so clever and amusing to catch Charlton Heston, in Bowling for Columbine, at the onset of his senile dementia.) Such courage.

Perhaps vaguely aware that his movie so completely lacks gravitas, Moore concludes with a sonorous reading of some words from George Orwell. The words are taken from 1984 and consist of a third-person analysis of a hypothetical, endless, and contrived war between three superpowers. The clear intention, as clumsily excerpted like this (...) is to suggest that there is no moral distinction between the United States, the Taliban, and the Baath Party and that the war against jihad is about nothing. If Moore had studied a bit more, or at all, he could have read Orwell really saying, and in his own voice, the following:

The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States …

And that's just from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism in May 1945. A short word of advice: In general, it's highly unwise to quote Orwell if you are already way out of your depth on the question of moral equivalence. It's also incautious to remind people of Orwell if you are engaged in a sophomoric celluloid rewriting of recent history.

If Michael Moore had had his way, Slobodan Milosevic would still be the big man in a starved and tyrannical Serbia. Bosnia and Kosovo would have been cleansed and annexed. If Michael Moore had been listened to, Afghanistan would still be under Taliban rule, and Kuwait would have remained part of Iraq. And Iraq itself would still be the personal property of a psychopathic crime family, bargaining covertly with the slave state of North Korea for WMD. You might hope that a retrospective awareness of this kind would induce a little modesty. To the contrary, it is employed to pump air into one of the great sagging blimps of our sorry, mediocre, celeb-rotten culture. Rock the vote, indeed.

Correction, June 22, 2004: This piece originally referred to terrorist attacks by Abu Nidal's group on the Munich and Rome airports. The 1985 attacks occurred at the Rome and Vienna airports. (Return to the corrected sentence.)

Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair. His latest book, Blood, Class and Empire: The Enduring Anglo-American Relationship, is out in paperback. Photograph of Michael Moore by Pascal Guyot/Agence France-Presse. Stills from Fahrenheit 9/11 © 2004 Lions Gate Films. All Rights Reserved.Photograph of Michael Moore on the Slate home page by Eric Gaillard/Reuters.

0 likes

Great article. I'll send it to certain friends of mine who say (to my great astoundment) that Michael Moore does not have an agenda. I appreciate what he's trying to do, but he is very manipulative. My reaction on the film to follow seeing it soon....

0 likes

Moore's manipulation vs. Bush/Cheney/Rice/Rumsfeld manipulation....

No contest...the lesser of two evils.

0 likes

mm rears up again for no particular reason. i'll make up my mind when i see the movie. my bet is mm hasn't seen it and will not see it. you know, you're right. Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft have been right on track all along. I really feel safer now and very proud to be an American. Thank you Michael for helping me see the light. Republicans are honest, well meaning folks and Democrats are all lying, manipulative low-life scumbags who are trying to ruin life for the rest of us. Now i can see the light. Thank you. Thank You. I feel liberated.

0 likes

Last week I read an interview with Moore's ex-manager, who basically said that the guy's the biggest charlatan going and that all he cares about is money. Looks like he's getting a kicking from all sides now.

0 likes

Don't you just love a cranky Brit? Here's another piece he wrote....

Not Even a Hedgehog The stupidity of Ronald Reagan. By Christopher Hitchens Posted Monday, June 7, 2004, at 10:03 AM PT

Not long ago, I was invited to be the specter at the feast during "Ronald Reagan Appreciation Week" at Wabash College in Indiana. One of my opponents was Dinesh D'Souza: He wasn't the only one who maintained that Reagan had been historically vindicated by the wreckage of the Soviet Union. Some of us on the left had also been very glad indeed to see the end of the Russian empire and the Cold War. But nothing could make me forget what the Reagan years had actually been like.

Ronald Reagan claimed that the Russian language had no word for "freedom." (The word is "svoboda"; it's quite well attested in Russian literature.) Ronald Reagan said that intercontinental ballistic missiles (not that there are any non-ballistic missiles—a corruption of language that isn't his fault) could be recalled once launched. Ronald Reagan said that he sought a "Star Wars" defense only in order to share the technology with the tyrants of the U.S.S.R. Ronald Reagan professed to be annoyed when people called it "Star Wars," even though he had ended his speech on the subject with the lame quip, "May the force be with you." Ronald Reagan used to alarm his Soviet counterparts by saying that surely they'd both unite against an invasion from Mars. Ronald Reagan used to alarm other constituencies by speaking freely about the "End Times" foreshadowed in the Bible. In the Oval Office, Ronald Reagan told Yitzhak Shamir and Simon Wiesenthal, on two separate occasions, that he himself had assisted personally at the liberation of the Nazi death camps.

There was more to Ronald Reagan than that. Reagan announced that apartheid South Africa had "stood beside us in every war we've ever fought," when the South African leadership had been on the other side in the most recent world war. Reagan allowed Alexander Haig to greenlight the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, fired him when that went too far and led to mayhem in Beirut, then ran away from Lebanon altogether when the Marine barracks were bombed, and then unbelievably accused Tip O'Neill and the Democrats of "scuttling." Reagan sold heavy weapons to the Iranian mullahs and lied about it, saying that all the weapons he hadn't sold them (and hadn't traded for hostages in any case) would, all the same, have fit on a small truck. Reagan then diverted the profits of this criminal trade to an illegal war in Nicaragua and lied unceasingly about that, too. Reagan then modestly let his underlings maintain that he was too dense to understand the connection between the two impeachable crimes. He then switched without any apparent strain to a policy of backing Saddam Hussein against Iran. (If Margaret Thatcher's intelligence services had not bugged Oliver North in London and become infuriated because all European nations were boycotting Iran at Reagan's request, we might still not know about this.)

One could go on. I only saw him once up close, which happened to be when he got a question he didn't like. Was it true that his staff in the 1980 debates had stolen President Carter's briefing book? (They had.) The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard. His reply was that maybe his staff had, and maybe they hadn't, but what about the leak of the Pentagon Papers? Thus, a secret theft of presidential documents was equated with the public disclosure of needful information. This was a man never short of a cheap jibe or the sort of falsehood that would, however laughable, buy him some time.

The fox, as has been pointed out by more than one philosopher, knows many small things, whereas the hedgehog knows one big thing. Ronald Reagan was neither a fox nor a hedgehog. He was as dumb as a stump. He could have had anyone in the world to dinner, any night of the week, but took most of his meals on a White House TV tray. He had no friends, only cronies. His children didn't like him all that much. He met his second wife—the one that you remember—because she needed to get off a Hollywood blacklist and he was the man to see. Year in and year out in Washington, I could not believe that such a man had even been a poor governor of California in a bad year, let alone that such a smart country would put up with such an obvious phony and loon.

However, there came a day when Mikhail Gorbachev visited Washington and when the Marriott Hotel—host of the summit press conferences—turned its restaurant into the "Glasnost Cafe." On the sidewalk, LaRouche supporters wearing Reagan masks paraded with umbrellas, in mimicry of Neville Chamberlain. I huddled from dawn to dusk with friends, wondering if it could be real. Many of those friends had twice my IQ, or let's say six times that of the then-chief executive. These friends had all deeply wanted either Jimmy Carter or Walter Mondale to be, presumably successively, the president instead of Reagan. They would go on to put Michael Dukakis and Lloyd Bentsen bumper stickers on their vehicles. No doubt they wish that Mondale had been in the White House when the U.S.S.R. threw in the towel, just as they presumably yearn to have had Dukakis on watch when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. I have been wondering ever since not just about the stupidity of American politics, but about the need of so many American intellectuals to prove themselves clever by showing that they are smarter than the latest idiot in power, or the latest Republican at any rate.

******

Sen. John Kerry waited until the first week of June 2004 to tell us that he met Ahmad Chalabi in London in 1998 and that he didn't care for him then. That makes six intervening years in which the senator could have alerted us to this lurking danger to national security. But something kept him quiet. One must hope that that something wasn't the tendency to pile on. Cheer up, though. At least this shows that Kerry has no pre-emptive capacity.

Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair. His latest book, Blood, Class and Empire, is out in paperback.

0 likes

I'm not an unqualified fan of Michael Moore (he's sort of a left-wing Rush Limbaugh), but I can't take Christopher Hitchens seriously. He is an upper class public-school-boy who, like his more pompous brother, seems to have given up his youthful Trot rebellion and returned to siding with his fellow members of the rich white guy elite, which is where he always belonged. I read his book supporting the invasion of Iraq (as it was the only such book I could find in my local lefty-staffed bookshop, and I genuinely wanted to hear the pro- case) and it seemed almost entirely content-free (as well as being £6 for a book scarcely bigger than a pamphlet). Since the war he seems to have gotten ever more bombastic and deranged in trying to justify his position (he now seems to take the bizarre line that anyone in Iraq who opposes the occupation is by definition 'Al Qieda').

That said, Christopher H still isn't quite as ludicrous as his brother.

0 likes

Doesn't anyone know that the government is carrying out the attacks?

0 likes

Saw it last night. Not as solid and connected as Bowling for Columbine, but picks up where that one left off in some ways (same basic structure, too). Worth seeing. Some points are a bit nebulous at best, and he throws out a lot of things that aren't followed up on later, but he does make a number of very good connections. Of course I didn't buy everything in it, as he's exaggerating quite a bit on some things, but very good overall. :thumb:

0 likes

Originally posted by Milb Stiktengorbsmantennderwer Doesn't anyone know that the government is carrying out the attacks?

nope...it's aliens...them ones that built the pyramids...Stonehenge...and those things on Easter Island...

but which government are you alleging is carrying out these attacks?!?!?!

0 likes

Originally posted by I Invented NewOrder > Originally posted by Milb Stiktengorbsmantennderwer> Doesn't anyone know that the government is carrying out the attacks?

nope...it's aliens...them ones that built the pyramids...Stonehenge...and those things on Easter Island...

but which government are you alleging is carrying out these attacks?!?!?! It's those Commie Rooshians again. They're back for more...and this time, it's personal!

0 likes

Yeah... Well, obviously I'm just a conspiracy theorist! Nice media generated buzzword to classify something so you don't have to think! So, we have all these bizarre coincidences that are just coincidences only a conspiracy theorist would believe otherwise.

I would have to agree with you there. NORAD stood down under Cheney's command. For an hour and a half. When they were able to surrround Payne Stewart's flight in 12 minutes with four F-16's. They were also able to fly planes into buildings at 5 and 6 G's which are uncapable of being done unless under remote control, according to top military fighting jocks. Also, no steel structures have ever been brought down by fire, yet it happened three times on 9/11/01. Buildings of that nature would not fall perfectly like they did on 9/11 when hit by planes, maybe break off, yes. If you watch the whole episode you can see popcorn explosives that were measured by seismographic readings as shapecharges destroying buildings. Then, Larry Silverstein said in a PBS documentary hosted by Kevin Spacey that building 7 was "pulled" which means that there were explosives in the building. They were apparently put in the buildings during the day when nobody was looking.

Then you get into record put options being placed on American and United and NO OTHER AIRLINES the day before 9/11. Also, you have records that were placed under the National Security Act of firefighters saying that the fires were put out. Hundreds if not thousands of people were warned of not flying or going to work on 9/11: Willie Brown, Salman Rushdie, etc.

News reports of at least 7 out of the 19 hijackers still being alive have surfaced. Bush Sr. meeting with a family member of the Bin Laden's on the morning of 9/11. Bush Jr. signing W-199-I that threatened anyone with arrest that would question members of Al-Qaeda (Al-CIAda). 160 members of the Bin Laden family being flown out while planes were being grounded on SEPTEMBER ELEVENTH!

The information is there, the revoulution will not be televised. If you're counting on corporate media to give you the answers, you never will find out the truth. If you care a little bit, check out all of the MAINSTREAM media archives that get buried on the backpages of newspapers daily at the following sites:

INFOWARS.COM PROPAGANDAMATRIX.COM PRISONPLANET.COM 911LETSROLL.COM (FOR FOOTAGE FROM THE ATTACKS THAT SHOW THE TRUTH) THEMEMORYHOLE.ORG In other words, keep calling people that have evidence "conspiracy theorists" while believing controlling entities that are meant to enslave you and keep you stupid.

Please wake up.

It's easier that way.

0 likes

whoa...let me see if I'm hearing you correctly...you are saying that the U.S. Government brought down those buildings????

That Dubya wreaked havoc on our economy just so he could send a force into Afghanistan, and eventually, Iraq???

sorry, that just sounds a wee bit too crazy for even me!!!

0 likes

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

I don't really know how much Bush even knows.

It goes very, very, very deep.

I'm serious.

0 likes

Originally posted by Milb Stiktengorbsmantennderwer The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.I don't really know how much Bush even knows.It goes very, very, very deep.I'm serious.

Man, I think someone has been watching their X-Files DVDs too much :D

"Trust No One" but "The Truth Is Out There" (way, way out there)

0 likes

Well, that's a natural response...when you haven't been paying any attention to anything. Give me one instance of anything that the globalists have brought forth that proves 911 happened like they said. It didn't. There is no concrete fact that 911 happened in the way it was said.

I've given you the evidence. Refute that. I'm sorry you're scared.

If you want to bring up the "X-Files" then look at the spinoff show that presented the same scenario months before 911.

You're just saying I'm a kook. You're not giving any kind of documentation to back it up. I am.

0 likes

Originally posted by Milb Stiktengorbsmantennderwer Well, that's a natural response...when you haven't been paying any attention to anything. Give me one instance of anything that the globalists have brought forth that proves 911 happened like they said. It didn't. There is no concrete fact that 911 happened in the way it was said.I've given you the evidence. Refute that. I'm sorry you're scared.If you want to bring up the "X-Files" then look at the spinoff show that presented the same scenario months before 911. You're just saying I'm a kook. You're not giving any kind of documentation to back it up. I am.

not saying that at all. just a bit of a joke on your comment......just so happens that I am a HUGE X-Files fan! I also undestand how things work in the government, and that is simply that we will never know the real truth. One side will say one thing while the other side denies it all. I grew up on military bases overseas that were "weather monitering facilities" and I sure saw more silos than anything else there....but to this day our government denies it. Our government has had too many years of learning how to cover their tracks.

0 likes

Well...

Please look this stuff up...

I'm not making it up...

There's tons of evidence. I'm not spewing forth handshaking Yetis and being abducted by green men! Need I go into that aspect of government? Please...

I would welcome anyone who would refute any of the things I've said. I'm totally right. It if it stirs up your belief system, good. There is a large overseeing network that controls your misguided thoughts. Do I need to spell these out for you? Do you want names? I'll give those as well.

0 likes

Originally posted by Milb Stiktengorbsmantennderwer Also, no steel structures have ever been brought down by fire, yet it happened three times on 9/11/01. Buildings of that nature would not fall perfectly like they did on 9/11 when hit by planes, maybe break off, yes.

also refer to the first two sentences of your final paragraph in the above post

i'm awfully confused; what sources do you have for your statement that the towers would 'break off'? actually, i thought the engineers on the NOVA programme 'why the towers fell' explained the process pretty well: how the redistribution of weight, due to the bending out of the girders caused by the plane's impact, and the resulting intense heat (no skyscraper's been brought down by fire because no fire ever got this intense--the extra fuel, you see), caused the towers to collapse into the hole created by the plane. in essence, once the girders snapped completely (outwards), the top of the towers came straight down. i looked at one of the sites you refer to above and it shows a picture of someone leaning out of the hole in the building as proof that there was no 'inferno.' in fact, it does no such thing. as the plane created a hole which covered several stories, and as wind conditions at the top of the towers resulted in the fire and smoke moving in one direction only, the person standing in the lower corner of the hole could easily have missed the initial heat...for a moment, at least. after a few minutes he would have been engulfed in flames--perhaps not due to the actual fire (which was pushing out the other end of the building), but due to the extreme heat. this is the same effect as found in an oven: no flames needed for someone to 'burn up,' so to speak. it also explains why one man survived the impact and managed to crawl into the stairwell and down to safety. the picture of this man is not 'evidence!' in fact, photographic evidence and eyewitness accounts are the least reliable forms of evidence out there!

as for tipping over, this is an engineering impossibility in a skyscraper of that size. to paraphrase MIT engineer dr. thomas eagar, the towers would have had to bend over 100 feet to move the centre of gravity out from under the towers' bases. there's nothing that can exert that much energy on the building to make it tip that far--not even a commercial airliner. skyscrapers are designed to be flexible--one of the four survivors who was above the point of impact in tower one reported that the building only swayed seven to ten feet after the plane hit. how, then, could the building 'break off'?

and boy do skyscrapers sway! i used to get almost seasick at the top of tower one, and i was even unnerved when the walls would creak during high winds in the building i worked in in midtown!

in essence, buildings of that nature would fall perfectly downwards. they have no other way to fall!

i'm not sure why you condemn 'mainstream' media so heartily yet put total confidence in internet sources. the internet has an illustrious history of producing hoaxes and embellished material. not that it's always nonsense, mind you, and not that the mainstream media's always correct, but i've seen far too much crap on the internet regarding terrorism, the middle east and the like; it makes me wonder if jayson blair hasn't offered his services to some of these websites.

as for this system that 'misguides our thoughts' or whatever you call it, i'm perfectly capable of deciphering fact from fiction, filtering out reliable sources, and checking citations (i did quite a bit of this while writing my masters degree on middle eastern terrorism back in 1998). i'm sure i'm not the only person on the board who can do this, either!

0 likes

yeah...what Christy said!!!

I would have typed the stuff from that NOVA show...but I'm too lazy!!!

And even if the fighters had been scrambled...who is to say that the pilots could have brought themselves to down a plane with many of their compatriots on board...

I went to a couple of the websites you mentioned...and one only wanted to sell me t-shirts...what kind of "FACTS" am I supposed to gleem from that site???

I'm not going to say you are a kook, but I do think you are taking what some people have written way too far...there is so much disinformation out there, that it's hard to know what to believe...

and you say the revolution won't be televised...hell, shows how much you know about television in the United States...if it will bring in the ratings, they'll show it...

0 likes

You're worried about T-Shirt sales? It's not like McDonalds is going to support the site. I was asking you to look at the archives of news. Look at the archives!

0 likes

Originally posted by AgentWood > Originally posted by Milb Stiktengorbsmantennderwer> Also, no steel structures have ever been brought down by fire, yet it happened three times on 9/11/01. Buildings of that nature would not fall perfectly like they did on 9/11 when hit by planes, maybe break off, yes.

also refer to the first two sentences of your final paragraph in the above post

i'm awfully confused; what sources do you have for your statement that the towers would 'break off'? actually, i thought the engineers on the NOVA programme 'why the towers fell' explained the process pretty well: how the redistribution of weight, due to the bending out of the girders caused by the plane's impact, and the resulting intense heat (no skyscraper's been brought down by fire because no fire ever got this intense--the extra fuel, you see), caused the towers to collapse into the hole created by the plane. in essence, once the girders snapped completely (outwards), the top of the towers came straight down. i looked at one of the sites you refer to above and it shows a picture of someone leaning out of the hole in the building as proof that there was no 'inferno.' in fact, it does no such thing. as the plane created a hole which covered several stories, and as wind conditions at the top of the towers resulted in the fire and smoke moving in one direction only, the person standing in the lower corner of the hole could easily have missed the initial heat...for a moment, at least. after a few minutes he would have been engulfed in flames--perhaps not due to the actual fire (which was pushing out the other end of the building), but due to the extreme heat. this is the same effect as found in an oven: no flames needed for someone to 'burn up,' so to speak. it also explains why one man survived the impact and managed to crawl into the stairwell and down to safety. the picture of this man is not 'evidence!' in fact, photographic evidence and eyewitness accounts are the least reliable forms of evidence out there!

as for tipping over, this is an engineering impossibility in a skyscraper of that size. to paraphrase MIT engineer dr. thomas eagar, the towers would have had to bend over 100 feet to move the centre of gravity out from under the towers' bases. there's nothing that can exert that much energy on the building to make it tip that far--not even a commercial airliner. skyscrapers are designed to be flexible--one of the four survivors who was above the point of impact in tower one reported that the building only swayed seven to ten feet after the plane hit. how, then, could the building 'break off'?

and boy do skyscrapers sway! i used to get almost seasick at the top of tower one, and i was even unnerved when the walls would creak during high winds in the building i worked in in midtown!

in essence, buildings of that nature would fall perfectly downwards. they have no other way to fall!

i'm not sure why you condemn 'mainstream' media so heartily yet put total confidence in internet sources. the internet has an illustrious history of producing hoaxes and embellished material. not that it's always nonsense, mind you, and not that the mainstream media's always correct, but i've seen far too much crap on the internet regarding terrorism, the middle east and the like; it makes me wonder if jayson blair hasn't offered his services to some of these websites.

as for this system that 'misguides our thoughts' or whatever you call it, i'm perfectly capable of deciphering fact from fiction, filtering out reliable sources, and checking citations (i did quite a bit of this while writing my masters degree on middle eastern terrorism back in 1998). i'm sure i'm not the only person on the board who can do this, either!

Look...

Jet Fuel burns at 1100-1200 degrees fahrenheit maximum. It would take up to 1800 degrees, maybe 1900 to start melting steel. That doesn't make it shatter and disintegrate. Not perfectly, popcorn explosive-style which is what happened. It's important to realize that everything I'm saying has been DOCUMENTED. If you go to these websites and can't figure that out, sorry...

They need sources to keep giving you good data. If that's selling a t-shirt, I'm sorry.

The government has funded and controlled the terrorists. The terrorists are CIA operatives. In PNAC documents Cheney has said that they need this kind of attack to advance with their agenda.

I don't condemn mainstream sources heartily, as you said. I just wonder why the important stuff gets shoved into the back pages daily, then deleted, while unimportant stuff is shoved into your face regularly. I'm telling you, search the archives. This is nothing new. It's problem/reaction/solution a.k.a. the Hegelian dialect. Blow things up and blame it on the enemy. It's the oldest trick in the book.

0 likes

Originally posted by Milb Stiktengorbsmantennderwer Look...Jet Fuel burns at 1100-1200 degrees fahrenheit maximum. It would take up to 1800 degrees, maybe 1900 to start melting steel. That doesn't make it shatter and disintegrate. Not perfectly, popcorn explosive-style which is what happened. It's important to realize that everything I'm saying has been DOCUMENTED. If you go to these websites and can't figure that out, sorry...They need sources to keep giving you good data. If that's selling a t-shirt, I'm sorry.The government has funded and controlled the terrorists. The terrorists are CIA operatives. In PNAC documents Cheney has said that they need this kind of attack to advance with their agenda. I don't condemn mainstream sources heartily, as you said. I just wonder why the important stuff gets shoved into the back pages daily, then deleted, while unimportant stuff is shoved into your face regularly. I'm telling you, search the archives. This is nothing new. It's problem/reaction/solution a.k.a. the Hegelian dialect. Blow things up and blame it on the enemy. It's the oldest trick in the book.

first: the steel didn't shatter and disintegrate. the fire, which, as you said, burned at a maximum 1200F weakened the beams, which were already bent sideways due to the impact. it's a combination of the fire and the bending which caused the structure to collapse. the fire caused the steel to lose more strength (80%, approximately), which caused the angle clips to give way; once several angle clips gave way it caused a ripple effect. in other words, the steel which burned wasn't 'normal' steel--it was already deformed and weakened by trauma and didn't have it's maximum strength to begin with. therefore, it couldn't carry the load as well as it might have if there was only a fire and no previous damage to the steel.

second: i looked at some of the 'alternative news' sites on the news sources page on propagandamatrix. they included:

--last trumpet ministries, which believes that we are living in the end times and nearing armageddon.

--the american patriot friends' network, which includes a supposed expose about what 'really happened' in the columbine massacre. in fact the story is a re-hash of the more-than-two-shooters story which was reported in the mainstream media immediately after the shooting. in fact, where did the APFN get their sources from? CNN, the associated press, ABC, and the rocky mountain news! shocking undercover work, there. seen it already, folks!

--paranoia magazine. great title! 'nuff said.

--the fluoride action network. dr. strangelove, here we come...

interesting 'sources' there!

oh, and on the 'mainstream' side, the guardian newspaper is listed as left-leaning, while the observer isn't. odd, considering that they're the same damn paper! (the observer is the sunday guardian.) and wait! al-jazeera is listed as both 'alternative' and 'mainstream'. huh? and why are the UN, the WTO and the IMF listed under 'alternative' sources? :confused2:

i especially like the ad on the main page for the 'smartroom', which purports to protect families from, amongst other things, terrorist threats (including bio-chemical and nuclear). let's see, 'duck and cover' was futile, nuclear bunkers were nothing more than glorified ovens which would have cooked their occupants inside in the event of a nuclear attack.... so much for the 'smartroom', then! talk about paranoia!

i agree with you that there are many things we don't know about the inner workings of government, but i find this brand of 'out-to-get-us-ness' hard to swallow. and by the way, it's hegelian dialectic, not dialect. ;)

0 likes

Wow I got to this thread way too late; too much to read :crazy:

0 likes

Well, I'm sorry.

I meant to say Hegelian Dialectic, not Hegelian Dialect.

That's the one thing you called me on?

Sorry about that.

I apologize for being so misinformed!

0 likes

Originally posted by Tristan Wow I got to this thread way too late; too much to read :crazy:

Not much more than blind right-wing "God Bless America (And no one else)" and some conspiracy theories..

:evil4:

0 likes

Attention Moderators:

I think that a forum is a place for discussion opinions, facts, experiences, views, etc. Not a place for copying and pasting 1000s of words of articles.

I like to post opinions and responses myself, and would love to have a decent discussion with Michael McDermott. The easiest tinng in the world for me to do would be copy and paste articles and opinion pieces from the guardian website, but figure that this isnt the space for doing that.

What are the moderators views?

Im sick of posting replies, looking forward to a response , and seeing "LA TIMES, 19/06/04, article by Mr X" it just makes me want to not bother posting.

Just for the record:

Moore is a charlatan, a 3rd rate comedian, and a poor filmmaker. Moore is on the left, and antiwar.

This doesnt ditract in any way from the objective argument against war - an argument based on critical analysis, factual dialects and objective thought. The objective arguments for war are Scattered,dubious, selective ,and their implementation rely on misplaced pride and trust in a state.

Cmon now michael, lets have more discussion, facts, and personal analysis of the case against the US state, and less attempts to casually discredit the entire left and anti war movement by drawing attention to the personality, motives, and methods of one stupid white man.

Also, if you want a more (still not entierly convincing) argument for war, try David AAronovich.

0 likes

I'd much rather read a personal take on any given subject , with a link posted if needed .

0 likes

Well...it's like this...there was a time when I used to shut down these political threads when the discussion went from good intelligent debate into outright name calling and just talking a bunch of SHITE!!! Then somebody wondered why I was shutting these threads down. So I thought about it. Hey this is the off topic section, so as long as it isn't particlarly ugly, just about ANYTHING goes...

Well, that and the fact that I have learned quite a bit by reading some of the posts in these threads.

That being said, if you really want to see some intelligent discussion, click on just about any of the replies to any story posted in Yahoo news...

0 likes

Originally posted by Clockwork C Just for the record: Moore is a charlatan

No wonder their latest album is crap :evil4:

0 likes

You're leaving NewOrderOnline

This link goes to an external website we don't operate, which has its own privacy policy and terms.

Destination:
Continue ↗