New Orleans

I'm really distressed that a city in which I spent some amazing years is currently facing down a disaster-level category 5 hurricane.

New Orleans is one of a kind, with some of the best people, food, music, and architecture I've yet to come across.

Best hopes and prayers to anyone who might be in this monster's path.

new orleans is one of the most fascinating cities in the US and is almost a separate country it's so unique. it's also one of our country's most historic cities. there's nothing like hanging out in the french quarter listening to jazz--especially at preservation hall. the best jazz i've ever heard was a three-piece which set up outside and just started playing--a woman with a great, booming voice, a trumpet player and a drummer. i'm not a great fan of jazz, but you can't help but fall in love with it in new orleans.

the main problem facing new orleans is that the majority of it lies underwater, much like parts of holland, and it is protected by levees. with the expected 25-foot storm surge, who knows what's going to be left of the city. let's hope for the best.

I'm hoping it will turn right and take out Florida instead.

twist wrote: I'm hoping it will turn right and take out Florida instead.

what have you got against those people way up there in the panhandle?

There's really no good place for a hurricane to strike...except France. Watch them try to surrender to that :p

(waits for overwhelming French backlash)

Okay then, back to topic: I've always wanted to see Mardi Gras up close and personal, so New Orleans is high on my priorities. They say Katrina is supposed to be getting stronger as it approaches, so hopefully there aren't a lot of idiots trying to "ride out the storm".

Taboo # 7 wrote: Okay then, back to topic: I've always wanted to see Mardi Gras up close and personal, so New Orleans is high on my priorities.

Picked up a truckload of beads, did we?

Quite sobering to see the "worst case scenario" results of this event, such as the city being immersed in a bowl of toxic water filled with chemicals, coffins from the funerals, etc. Can't imagine what it'd be like in the SuperDome, now an evacuation center, after the power and air-conditioning go out. Good luck to all of those who'll be directly affected by this tonight and in the coming days.

Let me clarify, avoid the panhandle but head straight to the southern part and roll over Cuba on the way out.

Turning on the news this morning, on CNN, it looks like a fairly sizable bit of the Superdome's roof, estimated by the reporter about 1/12 of the total area, had been leaking and is now blown clear off. No panic inside from his report, but that's gotta be alarming.

I guess the Tragically Hip were right "New Orleans is sinking and I don't wanna swim"

twist wrote: Let me clarify, avoid the panhandle but head straight to the southern part and roll over Cuba on the way out.

good thing i don't live in south florida. what do you have against those poor people who live way down there?

The irony, of course, is that if the hurricane were to hit Cuba, the Cuban people would be better taken care of by their government than Floridians would be if the hurricane were to hit Florida.

Anyone else think there's something fishy about all these hurricanes hitting Florida? I mean, is this another Bush conspiracy to take money out of the hands of the government for "rebuilding" a state run by his brother?

Maybe I'm just being paranoid...

THIS LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR NEW ORDER!!!

AgentWood wrote:

twist wrote: Let me clarify, avoid the panhandle but head straight to the southern part and roll over Cuba on the way out.

good thing i don't live in south florida. what do you have against those poor people who live way down there?

Would've been nice if it'd washed out that lousy video music awards show on eMpTV Sunday night, tuned in briefly from a respite from the hurricane coverage to see R. Kelley onstage.

no but seriously i hope that new orleans get through this.

For all you considering giving donations, make sure you do a checkup on the organizations that you plan to give $$$ to. There's a lot of shady people in the world.

Use the better business bureau to check the organizations rating. Red Cross may be the best bet.

the following is a good site:

charitynavigator.org

it gives a breakdown of what percentage of funds different organizations actually spend on relief.

Looks like things are going from bad to worse down there. Avoid the full impact of the hurricane only to be submerged by the lake And Mississippi a complete disaster as well, we're still waiting to hear from some family friends in the central part who weren't doing to well in the storm.

I'm worried about the long-term effects of this on the city. They're talking that whole neighbourhoods will have to be demolished and rebuilt, but with what? New Orleans isn't the richest city, and many of these people who've been washed out are very poor themselves. Federal funding will only go so far. Some of those areas were in desperate need of renewal, but I hope the city doesn't decide to put up more of those God-awful projects in place of historic neighbourhoods where families have lived for generations.

I gave some money to the Red Cross as well, put my credit card debt to good use for a change!

Those pictures on the TV are horrific..It looks like a third world country there,I hope the emergencey services can cope.Is this USA's biggest single natural disaster? Its terrible,people are losing everthing down there,looting has begun,Mayor says thousands could be dead,many more are cut off....

know new orleans are expecting thousands of deaths. It getting worse.

They are saying its the worse natural disaster in united states' short history. I havent even bother to get in touch with friends in that area. I know i wont reach them.

I love 1987 wrote:

It just makes you stop and think about all the things we take for granted. Running out to the store and picking up a loaf of bread, a gallon of milk, water, and then paying for it with your credit card or debit card. The communications systems are so screwed up that some of the stores can only accept cash. Personally, I'd be in all sorts of trouble, since I don't normally keep cash on me.

I reckon it's time for me to go visit the red cross website and donate a wee bit of cash.

Very good point there Jeff, I'm sure there are a lot of people down there being forced to do things they wouldn't normally think of doing (i.e. looting a supermarket for food) just to survive. If I was in the same situation, I can't say that I wouldn't do the same.

I hear many people condemn the looters. I know a lot them have went crazy like a cop got shot, but if i was in the same position i would be taking what i needed to survive.Fookin wal-mart can deal with it.

I would definitly do the same..with 3 hungry kids to feed it would be all about survival..Good luck to, and god bless everyone of them..People gotta eat,and it looks like this crisis is deepening...

My father always tried to poud into my head the difference between "what I want" and "what I need." People need food for survival; I doubt if flat screen TVs are "needed" for survival. I guess it all depends on what they're taking, doesn't it?

I think its safe to say this one is about survival

bLuE oRdEr wrote: My father always tried to poud into my head the difference between "what I want" and "what I need." People need food for survival; I doubt if flat screen TVs are "needed" for survival. I guess it all depends on what they're taking, doesn't it?

Yes, I meant to add that point to my post. Where in the hell are they gonna take a freakin' flat screen TV to if they're gonna evacuate everyone out of NO, I don't think the authorities are gonna let everyone pack something like that along with them.

From what I've seen on TV, New Orleans is basically underwater now. That is a shame...a historic city with so much beauty rendered helpless by nature's cruelty. My sympathies to all down that way (and in Mississippi and Alabama and whereever else Katrina has wrecked her path).

About the looting, I think it's awfully tempting to condemn the folks who take those flatscreen TVs and other "non-essential" items, but put yourself in their shoes. You've just lost everything you ever owned, all through no fault of your own, and there's nothing to keep you from going ahead and taking that TV or DVD player along with the canned food or blankets that you need. Sure, it's a criminal act, and I think they should be held accountable in due time. But for now, I'm willing to give them the benefit of not holding it against them.

Just replacing what they lost, eh?

A friend just emailed this to me:

White people "find" their food in New Orleans

Black people "loot" their food in New Orleans

I report, you decide. ;)

Taboo # 7 wrote: From what I've seen on TV, New Orleans is basically underwater now. That is a shame...a historic city with so much beauty rendered helpless by nature's cruelty.

Nature's cruelty? Au contraire, mon ami. It's Global Climate Change-- something that doesn't exists here in Jesusland.

"A synthesis report,published in April 2004, based on previous studies pinpoints the Southeast U.S. as the most vulnerable to climate change. The report cited the region's heavily populated, low-lying coast, which is susceptible to rising sea levels—a risk that is made worse by more intense, and perhaps more frequent, storms."

[darkgreen]Green[/darkgreen] wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote: My father always tried to poud into my head the difference between "what I want" and "what I need." People need food for survival; I doubt if flat screen TVs are "needed" for survival. I guess it all depends on what they're taking, doesn't it?

Yes, I meant to add that point to my post. Where in the hell are they gonna take a freakin' flat screen TV to if they're gonna evacuate everyone out of NO, I don't think the authorities are gonna let everyone pack something like that along with them.

i couldn't agree with you gents more. i was having this conversation with some friends at dinner tonight. if i were in new orleans with no food or clean drinking water, and had no idea if and when relief was coming, i would resort to stealing food and drink from a supermarket to insure my survival and my family's survival. it's easy to take the moral high ground when you take basic necessities for granted.

but as far as electronics, appliances, etc.: how are you going to watch a big screen TV or use a DVD player in a house with no power, flooded with several feet (if you're lucky) of water? that's just criminal.

Taboo # 7 wrote: There's really no good place for a hurricane to strike...except France. Watch them try to surrender to that :p

(waits for overwhelming French backlash)

We've got also a lot of troubles here… don't need no hurricane.

The last news from New Orleans are very bad : seems it's going to take years to rebuild the city… and so much peoples died. Really sad.

Maybe Bush will reconsider his attitude to global warming now. They say it'll take years to sort NOrleans out; you can bet they'll get hit by another hurricane before then.

As regards 'looting'; if it's food and water to enable survival then you don't deserve a bullet in the head from some tooled up neanderthal... you don't deserve a bullet in the head if you're nicking an ipod either, but those sorts of things are obviously not critical to survival, so they should be handled differently.

Best wishes to the New Orleans dudes and dudettes, although it's not as if any of them will be able to read this...

Best wishes from old europe to all the victims and their relatives. Hope you get everything OK soon.

It's time to "flood" the White House (with letters or else) if Bush still denies to sign "the contract". (Reminds me of the film "Eric the Viking"... While Atlantis West is sinking the people are singing: "We don't sink, we don't sink." )

hopefully this will install some modesty in americans, now you can see that were the same as a third world country. We are at the mercy of the earth.

Agent Wood--Florida and Cuba handle hurricanes much better. New Orleans has had the worst case scenario brought to life. That city looks like it got niuked by God.

Looting I can understand for necessities but what is going on is criminal. The police had to stop looking and rescuing people so they could focus on criminals. Looting is costing lives. We need the military to intervene and rescue those people stranded. Too many lives and the destruction of a beautiful city.

bLuE oRdEr wrote: My father always tried to poud into my head the difference between "what I want" and "what I need." People need food for survival; I doubt if flat screen TVs are "needed" for survival. I guess it all depends on what they're taking, doesn't it?

Any boat showrooms downtown?

Are they looting stores or the homes of evacuees? The latter would be more despicable I think.

Is there any information anywhere on the web about which parts of NO (er...New Orleans, not New Order) are under water and by how much? I know some people in the western suburbs, they've left town and don't know what they will be coming back to. Information seems very hard to come by, but surely there must be detailed satellite pictures of the area?

404 error wrote: Is there any information anywhere on the web about which parts of NO (er...New Orleans, not New Order) are under water and by how much? I know some people in the western suburbs, they've left town and don't know what they will be coming back to. Information seems very hard to come by, but surely there must be detailed satellite pictures of the area?

there are satellite images on...i think it was bbc.co.uk. almost all of the streets are now rivers. about 80% of the city is underwater, and the parts that aren't are becoming increasingly unmanageable as rescue workers have been fired upon. new orleans is essentially in a state of anarchy as people have begun brandishing weapons at the superdome and news reporters are being told to pull out of the city for their own safety.

twist: i see what you mean now about florida. at first i thought perhaps you had a personal dislike for the state. not that i'd blame you. and i was directing you away from orlando (in the middle) as i sure didn't want to be hit! ;) however, having gone through three hurricanes in two months last year it's hard for any place to weather a hurricane (no pun intended). but you are right--because of its location, new orleans simply couldn't handle something of this magnitude the same way florida or cuba could.

I'd be stealing a boat as well...except for that whole gas thing.

Nice one on that "finding" vs. "looting" thing, Blue.

So much for me going to New Orleans for my hypothetical future honeymoon.

I can imagine there are a lot of frat boys and sorority girls from the Midwest and West Coast who are far too ignorant to realize the extent of what's happened down there. They'll have quite a surprise when they go down for Mardi Gras next year!

bLuE oRdEr wrote: A friend just emailed this to me:

White people "find" their food in New Orleans

Black people "loot" their food in New Orleans

I report, you decide. ;)

Brilliant. More motivation for me to go gonzo.

My sister inlaw and her family live in or near Orlando. Really super people. My brother inlaw is stationed in Florida with the army.

Snipers shooting helicopters rescuing people from a hospital. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?????!!!!!??????

* So we'll build the city under the water.

• Won't everyone get wet? * No, we'll pump all the water out
• Will that be safe? * Hell yes, so long as we keep maintaining the drainage systems properly
• But what if a future administration wastes all our money on a stupid war and cuts the budget for the flood defences? * We're a democracy! A stupid administration like that would never get elected!
• Of course, how silly of me! * One more thing: we'll let everyone have guns, just in case things do go wrong!
• Well that's only common sense * I'm glad you agree

Why is it the Federal government's responsibility to maintain the levees of New Orleans? When the Mississippi River flooded some cities in my State the Feds denied rebuiding money unless the city built proper flood protection. Insurance companies refuse to insure homes built in flood plains and on seaside cliffs. New Orleans knew that there was a possibility of this disaster but did not prepare for it. They should have had aplan on how to get everyone out.

The real tragedy is not the destruction caused by the water, that can be rebuilt. Rather, the issue is the failure of the evacuation and the animal like behavior of those preventing the rescue of innocent people.

bLuE oRdEr wrote: A friend just emailed this to me:

White people "find" their food in New Orleans

Black people "loot" their food in New Orleans

I report, you decide. ;)

This report reeks of racism. Now can they prove that the whiteys purchase the groceries. The whites find food, and the blacks loot the food.Bullshit. Im sorry to say that i would loot if i needed the food. If i owe a store i would give away shit.

BIGINOIL wrote: * So we'll build the city under the water.

• Won't everyone get wet? * No, we'll pump all the water out
• Will that be safe? * Hell yes, so long as we keep maintaining the drainage systems properly
• But what if a future administration wastes all our money on a stupid war and cuts the budget for the flood defences? * We're a democracy! A stupid administration like that would never get elected!
• Of course, how silly of me! * One more thing: we'll let everyone have guns, just in case things do go wrong!
• Well that's only common sense * I'm glad you agree

Thanks for you empathy and prayers.

did anyone else read the estimate from the EPA analyst that taking into consideration the money needed to pump the water out of the city; rebuild the levees; rebuild destroyed homes, buildings and highways; dispose of the toxic waste, human waste and rotting bodies; and clear the gulf of mexico of said waste, the united states does not have enough money in its entire GNP to rebuild the city of new orleans?

i hope this is just 'duck and cover'-type paranoia, but from the pictures and the stories, i'm really wondering....

I'm not unsympathetic - sorry if I sounded like that. It's important to remember that a bad situation has been made worse by awful planning and poor maintenance of the flood protection systems. The warnings were there, but ignored. Very sad, even sadder because the worst of it could probably have been prevented.

well personally i think that this is gods way of telling new orleans that he dont like jazz.

mike powell wrote: well personally i think that this is gods way of telling new orleans that he dont like jazz.

Another theory worth considering.

Although I prefer to blame Bushy & Co.

Just read that Fats Domino is one of those reported missing in New Orleans :(

What a nightmare. Parts of the city heading into anarchy. I can't blame people for grabbing essential supplies, but shooting at rescue helicopters and the like is completely insane. Then again, hard to say what any of us would do if we lost everything we owned only to end up stranded on a blazing hot overpass for days with no clean water or food, or crowded in a stinking stadium with dead bodies left lying around.

I feel the worst knowing that most of those people left in the city probably couldn't afford to evacuate. The important thing now is to just get them out quickly as possible.

Any word on Dr John Rebennack?

wow! a reporter on CNN finally admitted that the media had failed to focus on the fact that most of those left behind in new orleans are black and poor--that race and class are, in fact, actual real life issues in america! am i dreaming?

also, i just saw that a very long list of countries (including some very poor ones) are offering hurricane aid to the united states. i hope those right-wing american isolationists are eating a big, tasty slice of humble pie right now.

twist wrote: Snipers shooting helicopters rescuing people from a hospital. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?????!!!!!??????

Governor bLuE oRdEr would send in helicopter gunships-- if the National Guard weren't on duty in Iraq, that is-- with orders to rescue the stranded and shoot-to-kill any snipers.

Hell, Governor bLuE oRdEr would volunteer for gunner duty. A few hundred rounds of .50 caliber in a sniper or two should bring some sanity back to the rescue.

leeharveyoswaldR.I.P1963 wrote:

BIGINOIL wrote: * So we'll build the city under the water.

• Won't everyone get wet? * No, we'll pump all the water out
• Will that be safe? * Hell yes, so long as we keep maintaining the drainage systems properly
• But what if a future administration wastes all our money on a stupid war and cuts the budget for the flood defences? * We're a democracy! A stupid administration like that would never get elected!
• Of course, how silly of me! * One more thing: we'll let everyone have guns, just in case things do go wrong!
• Well that's only common sense * I'm glad you agree

Thanks for you empathy and prayers.

Unthinking empathy-- seeing the people as victims of a "natural disaster" over which we have no control, rather than as the victims of Bush Administration policies-- only promotes the former view. Adding some sanity to the "official story" doesn't make Biggy unempathetic.

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

twist wrote: Snipers shooting helicopters rescuing people from a hospital. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?????!!!!!??????

Governor bLuE oRdEr would send in helicopter gunships-- if the National Guard weren't on duty in Iraq, that is-- with orders to rescue the stranded and shoot-to-kill any snipers.

Hell, Governor bLuE oRdEr would volunteer for gunner duty. A few hundred rounds of .50 caliber in a sniper or two should bring some sanity back to the rescue.

ah, the beauty of the wildly ambiguous second amendment.

I remember a few years ago, when I was living in San Jose, the City wanted to build housing in Alviso-- an area of the city at the extreme southern end of the San Francisco Bay, and about 10 feet below sea level.

In California, you have to make a Draft Environmental Impact Report (an "EIR") for a project like that, and it has to be circulated for public review and comment; the Final EIR is supposed to respond to public comments and make any adjustments necessary to the project as a result of those responses.

One of my comments was regarding the EIR's failure to address the impacts of global warming on a housing development that is being built on land that is ten feet below sea level. The official response was that they're not required to address something as "speculative" as global warming. So they built ten feet below sea level.

Ten, twenty, thirty years from now, when that decision comes home to roost, people will be wringing their hands over the tragedy of "natural disasters." The cunts who decided to ignore the dangers and build below sea level will be members of Congress, maybe Senators, maybe even in a Presidential administration. And NOBODY will remember that they CHOSE to ignore the risks.

That's why it's important to look beyond the propaganda term "natural disaster" when these things strike-- there's usually more to the picture than meets the eye.

so...yay, holland?

AgentWood wrote: so...yay, holland?

All that talk about not letting dykes get married...now how do you feel about that? I mean, if dykes had been in place I'm trying to see some humor in this but it's awfully hard.

There was something on Headline News right now about people actually dying in the SuperDome while waiting for whatever fucking relief there is. Why the hell is this happening in 21st-century America?

Hell, if Al Qaeda or Iraq claimed blame for it, I bet the Army would be down there asap. But because it's "just black and poor people" getting the brunt of this, it's okay in Bush's America. This is bullshit...

AgentWood wrote: so...yay, holland?

I don't know.

How about yay planning? Meaning...

...if you're planning for building below sea level, don't ignore inconvenient issues like global warming in your planning.

...if your planning tells you it's a bad idea, don't do it anyway just to repay the well-connected developers who bankroll your election campaigns.

And if you're a national leader, don't spend years pretending that global warming doesn't exist, and then appear utterly surprised when it shows up on your doorstep.

Taboo # 7 wrote:

AgentWood wrote: so...yay, holland?

There was something on Headline News right now about people actually dying in the SuperDome while waiting for whatever fucking relief there is. Why the hell is this happening in 21st-century America? ...

Why do you think America is a 21st Century nation? The ideology of the American right-- i.e., our national leadership-- is firmly rooted in the 19th Century...

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

Taboo # 7 wrote:

AgentWood wrote: so...yay, holland?

There was something on Headline News right now about people actually dying in the SuperDome while waiting for whatever fucking relief there is. Why the hell is this happening in 21st-century America? ...

Why do you think America is a 21st Century nation? The ideology of the American right-- i.e., our national leadership-- is firmly rooted in the 19th Century...

Ha! Shows what you know...more like 18th century!

I say, good man, what make you of the troubles in the Colonies? Shall we let them go, or perhaps crush them under our agrarian nonsense and Enlightenment philosophy....:p

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

Taboo # 7 wrote:

AgentWood wrote: so...yay, holland?

There was something on Headline News right now about people actually dying in the SuperDome while waiting for whatever fucking relief there is. Why the hell is this happening in 21st-century America? ...

Why do you think America is a 21st Century nation? The ideology of the American right-- i.e., our national leadership-- is firmly rooted in the 19th Century...

because we're no different than anyone else in the world--from the sudan to italy. we're human, we can starve to death, we can die of disease, we have tragedies, and we make mistakes. we're not invincible and we can crash and burn just like everyone else. this is something americans have a hard time stomaching and our government has no idea how to deal with this reality.

Taboo # 7 wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

Taboo # 7 wrote:

AgentWood wrote: so...yay, holland?

There was something on Headline News right now about people actually dying in the SuperDome while waiting for whatever fucking relief there is. Why the hell is this happening in 21st-century America? ...

Why do you think America is a 21st Century nation? The ideology of the American right-- i.e., our national leadership-- is firmly rooted in the 19th Century...

Ha! Shows what you know...more like 18th century!

I say, good man, what make you of the troubles in the Colonies? Shall we let them go, or perhaps crush them under our agrarian nonsense and Enlightenment philosophy....:p

My good man, I must disagree, what. Our illustrious leaders are clearly not of the 18th century. Enlightenment indeed! No, my good man, our leaders are clearly at the rearguard of the 19th century. Capitalism red in tooth and claw, the earth created 6000 years ago, and all that sort of rot, what.

AgentWood wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

Taboo # 7 wrote:

AgentWood wrote: so...yay, holland?

There was something on Headline News right now about people actually dying in the SuperDome while waiting for whatever fucking relief there is. Why the hell is this happening in 21st-century America? ...

Why do you think America is a 21st Century nation? The ideology of the American right-- i.e., our national leadership-- is firmly rooted in the 19th Century...

because we're no different than anyone else in the world--from the sudan to italy. we're human, we can starve to death, we can die of disease, we have tragedies, and we make mistakes. we're not invincible and we can crash and burn just like everyone else. this is something americans have a hard time stomaching and our government has no idea how to deal with this reality.

The situation is what you'd expect from a 19th century Administration though, isn't it?

because we're no different than anyone else in the world--from the sudan to italy. we're human, we can starve to death, we can die of disease, we have tragedies, and we make mistakes. we're not invincible and we can crash and burn just like everyone else. this is something americans have a hard time stomaching and our government has no idea how to deal with this reality.

fookin word up. the reality check is ,that natural disasters dont give a shit about where when or whom. and yes we are all human,i just think its a shame that we dont spend as much time as a race bothering about stuff like this when it happens say in india (as it does)or anywhere else for that matter. we can bitch and squawlk oveer bush n blair but in the end they mean nothing compared to what mother nature can dish out.

mike powell wrote: fookin word up. the reality check is ,that natural disasters dont give a shit about where when or whom. and yes we are all human,i just think its a shame that we dont spend as much time as a race bothering about stuff like this when it happens say in india (as it does)or anywhere else for that matter. we can bitch and squawlk oveer bush n blair but in the end they mean nothing compared to what mother nature can dish out.

"Natural disaters don't give a shit about where when or whom." Agreed. Even Americans can die in natural disasters.

But this isn't just a "natural disaster." It's a direct result of Bush Administration policies. In case you missed it the first time:

“A synthesis report,published in April 2004, based on previous studies pinpoints the Southeast U.S. as the most vulnerable to climate change. The report cited the region's heavily populated, low-lying coast, which is susceptible to rising sea levels—a risk that is made worse by more intense, and perhaps more frequent, storms.”

And the "victims" are those who didn't have the financial resources to evacuate. The poor. That's not a "natural disaster," that's piss-poor planning by people who don't give a shit about the poor.

Calling this a "natural disaster" just buys into the propaganda that there was nothing we could have done differently. Calling this a "natural disaster" just buys into the propaganda that there was nothing we could have done to prevent this, and nothing we could have done to be prepared.

Uh huh.

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

AgentWood wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

Taboo # 7 wrote:

AgentWood wrote: so...yay, holland?

There was something on Headline News right now about people actually dying in the SuperDome while waiting for whatever fucking relief there is. Why the hell is this happening in 21st-century America? ...

Why do you think America is a 21st Century nation? The ideology of the American right-- i.e., our national leadership-- is firmly rooted in the 19th Century...

because we're no different than anyone else in the world--from the sudan to italy. we're human, we can starve to death, we can die of disease, we have tragedies, and we make mistakes. we're not invincible and we can crash and burn just like everyone else. this is something americans have a hard time stomaching and our government has no idea how to deal with this reality.

The situation is what you'd expect from a 19th century Administration though, isn't it?

give them a break. remember: they're drafting laws by candlelight up in DC, blue. they're bound to make an unintended error or two considering the dim conditions.

AgentWood wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

AgentWood wrote:

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

Taboo # 7 wrote:

AgentWood wrote: so...yay, holland?

There was something on Headline News right now about people actually dying in the SuperDome while waiting for whatever fucking relief there is. Why the hell is this happening in 21st-century America? ...

Why do you think America is a 21st Century nation? The ideology of the American right-- i.e., our national leadership-- is firmly rooted in the 19th Century...

because we're no different than anyone else in the world--from the sudan to italy. we're human, we can starve to death, we can die of disease, we have tragedies, and we make mistakes. we're not invincible and we can crash and burn just like everyone else. this is something americans have a hard time stomaching and our government has no idea how to deal with this reality.

The situation is what you'd expect from a 19th century Administration though, isn't it?

give them a break. remember: they're drafting laws by candlelight up in DC, blue. they're bound to make an unintended error or two considering the dim conditions.

And don't forget, they're busy calculating the exact date 6000 years ago (or was it 5000 years ago?) that the Earth was created. By hand, because this is the 19th century. That takes time, you know.

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

mike powell wrote: fookin word up. the reality check is ,that natural disasters dont give a shit about where when or whom. and yes we are all human,i just think its a shame that we dont spend as much time as a race bothering about stuff like this when it happens say in india (as it does)or anywhere else for that matter. we can bitch and squawlk oveer bush n blair but in the end they mean nothing compared to what mother nature can dish out.

"Natural disaters don't give a shit about where when or whom." Agreed. Even Americans can die in natural disasters.

But this isn't just a "natural disaster." It's a direct result of Bush Administration policies. In case you missed it the first time:

“A synthesis report,published in April 2004, based on previous studies pinpoints the Southeast U.S. as the most vulnerable to climate change. The report cited the region's heavily populated, low-lying coast, which is susceptible to rising sea levels—a risk that is made worse by more intense, and perhaps more frequent, storms.”

And the "victims" are those who didn't have the financial resources to evacuate. The poor. That's not a "natural disaster," that's piss-poor planning by people who don't give a shit about the poor.

Calling this a "natural disaster" just buys into the propaganda that there was nothing we could have done differently. Calling this a "natural disaster" just buys into the propaganda that there was nothing we could have done to prevent this, and nothing we could have done to be prepared.

Uh huh.

you've got to meet christie in portland, blue. she just sent me this link from:

Spiegel Online

In order to fund the Bush family vendetta in Iraq, they cut $250 million in flood control for New Orleans; now they'll spend $10 billion in disaster relief. Smart move, Republican assholes.

Always ready to meet a secret agent. ;)

AgentWood wrote:

404 error wrote: Is there any information anywhere on the web about which parts of NO (er...New Orleans, not New Order) are under water and by how much? I know some people in the western suburbs, they've left town and don't know what they will be coming back to. Information seems very hard to come by, but surely there must be detailed satellite pictures of the area?

there are satellite images on...i think it was bbc.co.uk. almost all of the streets are now rivers. about 80% of the city is underwater, and the parts that aren't are becoming increasingly unmanageable as rescue workers have been fired upon. new orleans is essentially in a state of anarchy as people have begun brandishing weapons at the superdome and news reporters are being told to pull out of the city for their own safety.

As far as I can tell from the flood maps I've seen, its hard to say for sure about my friends place, but the probability is its completely submerged. They left thinking they'd be back in a day, with just the clothes they stood up in. Jeez. Given that FEMA picked a New Orleans hurricane/flood as one of the three most likely disasters to strike the US (along with a terror attack on NYC, and an SF earthquake), it does seem it was maybe a false economy not to strenghten the levees. Maybe now is the time for the US (and everyone else come to that) to look around and check if there's any other head-in-the-sand behaviour going on?

404 error wrote:

AgentWood wrote:

404 error wrote: Is there any information anywhere on the web about which parts of NO (er...New Orleans, not New Order) are under water and by how much? I know some people in the western suburbs, they've left town and don't know what they will be coming back to. Information seems very hard to come by, but surely there must be detailed satellite pictures of the area?

there are satellite images on...i think it was bbc.co.uk. almost all of the streets are now rivers. about 80% of the city is underwater, and the parts that aren't are becoming increasingly unmanageable as rescue workers have been fired upon. new orleans is essentially in a state of anarchy as people have begun brandishing weapons at the superdome and news reporters are being told to pull out of the city for their own safety.

As far as I can tell from the flood maps I've seen, its hard to say for sure about my friends place, but the probability is its completely submerged. They left thinking they'd be back in a day, with just the clothes they stood up in. Jeez. Given that FEMA picked a New Orleans hurricane/flood as one of the three most likely disasters to strike the US (along with a terror attack on NYC, and an SF earthquake), it does seem it was maybe a false economy not to strenghten the levees. Maybe now is the time for the US (and everyone else come to that) to look around and check if there's any other head-in-the-sand behaviour going on?

the french quarter and areas around the superdome are above water, but that hardly matters at this point. here's the open letter to the president from sunday's edition of the new orleans times-picayune. i got this from CNN, as visiting the times-picayune site is difficult, because they're printing from NOLA in baton rouge right now:

An open letter to the President Dear Mr. President:

We heard you loud and clear Friday when you visited our devastated city and the Gulf Coast and said, "What is not working, we're going to make it right."

Please forgive us if we wait to see proof of your promise before believing you. But we have good reason for our skepticism.

Bienville built New Orleans where he built it for one main reason: It's accessible. The city between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain was easy to reach in 1718.

How much easier it is to access in 2005 now that there are interstates and bridges, airports and helipads, cruise ships, barges, buses and diesel-powered trucks.

Despite the city's multiple points of entry, our nation's bureaucrats spent days after last week's hurricane wringing their hands, lamenting the fact that they could neither rescue the city's stranded victims nor bring them food, water and medical supplies.

Meanwhile there were journalists, including some who work for The Times-Picayune, going in and out of the city via the Crescent City Connection. On Thursday morning, that crew saw a caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers headed into town to bring food, water and supplies to a dying city.

Television reporters were doing live reports from downtown New Orleans streets. Harry Connick Jr. brought in some aid Thursday, and his efforts were the focus of a "Today" show story Friday morning.

Yet, the people trained to protect our nation, the people whose job it is to quickly bring in aid were absent. Those who should have been deploying troops were singing a sad song about how our city was impossible to reach.

We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That's to the government's shame.

Mayor Ray Nagin did the right thing Sunday when he allowed those with no other alternative to seek shelter from the storm inside the Louisiana Superdome. We still don't know what the death toll is, but one thing is certain: Had the Superdome not been opened, the city's death toll would have been higher. The toll may even have been exponentially higher.

It was clear to us by late morning Monday that many people inside the Superdome would not be returning home. It should have been clear to our government, Mr. President. So why weren't they evacuated out of the city immediately? We learned seven years ago, when Hurricane Georges threatened, that the Dome isn't suitable as a long-term shelter. So what did state and national officials think would happen to tens of thousands of people trapped inside with no air conditioning, overflowing toilets and dwindling amounts of food, water and other essentials?

State Rep. Karen Carter was right Friday when she said the city didn't have but two urgent needs: "Buses! And gas!" Every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency should be fired, Director Michael Brown especially.

In a nationally televised interview Thursday night, he said his agency hadn't known until that day that thousands of storm victims were stranded at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center. He gave another nationally televised interview the next morning and said, "We've provided food to the people at the Convention Center so that they've gotten at least one, if not two meals, every single day."

Lies don't get more bald-faced than that, Mr. President.

Yet, when you met with Mr. Brown Friday morning, you told him, "You're doing a heck of a job."

That's unbelievable.

There were thousands of people at the Convention Center because the riverfront is high ground. The fact that so many people had reached there on foot is proof that rescue vehicles could have gotten there, too.

We, who are from New Orleans, are no less American than those who live on the Great Plains or along the Atlantic Seaboard. We're no less important than those from the Pacific Northwest or Appalachia. Our people deserved to be rescued.

No expense should have been spared. No excuses should have been voiced. Especially not one as preposterous as the claim that New Orleans couldn't be reached.

Mr. President, we sincerely hope you fulfill your promise to make our beloved communities work right once again.

When you do, we will be the first to applaud.

The Media

bLuE oRdEr wrote: The Media

that's what i've noticed, as well. the reporters in the field have been very angry this past week. watching anderson cooper, son of gloria vanderbilt, bitch-slap sen. landreau (i think it was) was quite a sight.

An American city is reduced to Third World desperation as people who own nothing scrounge for necessities in a sea of waste and federal officials offer lame excuses about how their disaster plans would have worked fine had there not been, you know, a disaster.

Why FEMA Was Missing In Action

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

mike powell wrote: fookin word up. the reality check is ,that natural disasters dont give a shit about where when or whom. and yes we are all human,i just think its a shame that we dont spend as much time as a race bothering about stuff like this when it happens say in india (as it does)or anywhere else for that matter. we can bitch and squawlk oveer bush n blair but in the end they mean nothing compared to what mother nature can dish out.

"Natural disaters don't give a shit about where when or whom." Agreed. Even Americans can die in natural disasters.

But this isn't just a "natural disaster." It's a direct result of Bush Administration policies. In case you missed it the first time:

“A synthesis report,published in April 2004, based on previous studies pinpoints the Southeast U.S. as the most vulnerable to climate change. The report cited the region's heavily populated, low-lying coast, which is susceptible to rising sea levels—a risk that is made worse by more intense, and perhaps more frequent, storms.”

And the "victims" are those who didn't have the financial resources to evacuate. The poor. That's not a "natural disaster," that's piss-poor planning by people who don't give a shit about the poor.

Calling this a "natural disaster" just buys into the propaganda that there was nothing we could have done differently. Calling this a "natural disaster" just buys into the propaganda that there was nothing we could have done to prevent this, and nothing we could have done to be prepared.

Uh huh.

Actually, the seeds of this disaster were planted when algore burned over 450,000 lbs. of jet fuel flying to Kyoto.......

.............and in case you missed this, from Mr. Order's favorite source.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/national/30cycle.html

THE OUTLOOK Storms Vary With Cycles, Experts Say

By KENNETH CHANG Published: August 30, 2005 Because hurricanes form over warm ocean water, it is easy to assume that the recent rise in their number and ferocity is because of global warming.

But that is not the case, scientists say. Instead, the severity of hurricane seasons changes with cycles of temperatures of several decades in the Atlantic Ocean. The recent onslaught "is very much natural," said William M. Gray, a professor of atmospheric science at Colorado State University who issues forecasts for the hurricane season.

From 1970 to 1994, the Atlantic was relatively quiet, with no more than three major hurricanes in any year and none at all in three of those years. Cooler water in the North Atlantic strengthened wind shear, which tends to tear storms apart before they turn into hurricanes.

In 1995, hurricane patterns reverted to the active mode of the 1950's and 60's. From 1995 to 2003, 32 major hurricanes, with sustained winds of 111 miles per hour or greater, stormed across the Atlantic. It was chance, Dr. Gray said, that only three of them struck the United States at full strength.

Historically, the rate has been 1 in 3.

Then last year, three major hurricanes, half of the six that formed during the season, hit the United States. A fourth, Frances, weakened before striking Florida.

"We were very lucky in that eight-year period, and the luck just ran out," Dr. Gray said.

Global warming may eventually intensify hurricanes somewhat, though different climate models disagree.

In an article this month in the journal Nature, Kerry A. Emanuel, a hurricane expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, wrote that global warming might have already had some effect. The total power dissipated by tropical cyclones in the North Atlantic and North Pacific increased 70 to 80 percent in the last 30 years, he wrote.

But even that seemingly large jump is not what has been pushing the hurricanes of the last two years, Dr. Emanuel said, adding, "What we see in the Atlantic is mostly the natural swing."

So we still have time, then. I'm betting W dithers it away. Any takers?

Can you believe that wanker Bush!?

'I'm, er, i'm, -ahem-, erm ordering this, er, inquiry because, er, i'll tell you why... we need to understand the relationships between blah... blah... and because we need to be ready, it's er... an unstable world and there's WMD to consider...'

a/ This tosser can't string more than four words together in a row.

b/ Why the fuck is he obsessing over WMD when that is not the issue here.

c/ Isn't a good reason to do the inquiry because around 10,000 PEOPLE DIED!? HE DOESN'T MENTION THE DEATHS AS A REASON ONCE!

George Bush is a nauseating bag of toss and I hope he hurries up and fucks off out of office.

Tex wrote: .............and in case you missed this, from Mr. Order's favorite source.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/national/30cycle.html

THE OUTLOOK Storms Vary With Cycles, Experts Say

By KENNETH CHANG Published: August 30, 2005 Because hurricanes form over warm ocean water, it is easy to assume that the recent rise in their number and ferocity is because of global warming.

But that is not the case, scientists say. Instead, the severity of hurricane seasons changes with cycles of temperatures of several decades in the Atlantic Ocean. The recent onslaught "is very much natural," said William M. Gray, a professor of atmospheric science at Colorado State University who issues forecasts for the hurricane season.

From 1970 to 1994, the Atlantic was relatively quiet, with no more than three major hurricanes in any year and none at all in three of those years. Cooler water in the North Atlantic strengthened wind shear, which tends to tear storms apart before they turn into hurricanes.

In 1995, hurricane patterns reverted to the active mode of the 1950's and 60's. From 1995 to 2003, 32 major hurricanes, with sustained winds of 111 miles per hour or greater, stormed across the Atlantic. It was chance, Dr. Gray said, that only three of them struck the United States at full strength.

Historically, the rate has been 1 in 3.

Then last year, three major hurricanes, half of the six that formed during the season, hit the United States. A fourth, Frances, weakened before striking Florida.

"We were very lucky in that eight-year period, and the luck just ran out," Dr. Gray said.

Global warming may eventually intensify hurricanes somewhat, though different climate models disagree.

In an article this month in the journal Nature, Kerry A. Emanuel, a hurricane expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, wrote that global warming might have already had some effect. The total power dissipated by tropical cyclones in the North Atlantic and North Pacific increased 70 to 80 percent in the last 30 years, he wrote.

But even that seemingly large jump is not what has been pushing the hurricanes of the last two years, Dr. Emanuel said, adding, "What we see in the Atlantic is mostly the natural swing."

As you correctly mention a recent paper in Nature did suggest an increase in hurricane activity might be connected to global warming, and so we may see more disasters like this in future. But obviously one can't blame any specific hurricane on GW (or even on GWB). Seems to me the real issue in this case is not global warming but the lack of flood protection for NO and the unbelievably cack-handed response to the disaster. If one wants to bash Bush (and such a desire is surely a sign of common sense and decency) one must surely be careful to select the correct stick.

Myself, I'm hoping someone is keeping an eye on the Thames Barrier and checking that it's still up to the job. I guess the good thing about that is that if it fails the House of Commons will be one of the first things to go, which may concentrate the politicians minds.

Tex doesn't want to bash Bush. Tex luurrves Bush. He's responding to my hypothesis that global warming played a hand in this disaster.

I still think global warming is something we need to start taking seriously. If it wasn't a factor in this disaster, it's still predicted to be a factor in future disasters. If we escaped the consequences of global warming this time, we should count ourselves fortunate, and begin now to reverse the damage we're causing to our amosphere. Waiting until we're in a global warming induced emergency is the equivalent of doing nothing about flood control in New Orleans when we knew it was only a matter of time.

Although I've excoriated Bush for cutting funding for critical levee work in New Orleans, I'm actually against levees as a means of flood control. They are a poor solution to the problem. The coastline that protects New Orleans from the full brunt of a hurricane has been eaten away for years because of the levees. A proper flood control system would preserve the coastline and marshes-- flood control is an ecological service that these areas provide to society, but they've been destroyed by a combination of levees and wetlands development. The levees are necessary to protect development in the floodplains. On the other hand, not strengthening the levees resulted in catastrophic loss of life. It seems to me that when the floodplain is already develeoped, therefore, protecting lives in the developed floodplain makes repairs to the levees essential. That's why I blamed Bush for his role in this disaster. He knew there was a disaster in the making (He said nobody could have foreseen a break in the levees, but former Louisiana Senator John Breaux-- a Bush ally-- basically called him a liar when he said that he talked with Bush about the possibility of the levees breaking last year) and he did nothing about it. I think House Speaker Hastert is actually on the right track-- now that New Orleans is destroyed, we need to think about how we rebuild. Maybe certain areas of the floodplain in New Orleans shouldn't be rebuilt-- use a combination of natural and man-made flood protection to rebuild smarter. I don't know exactly what needs to be built, but I think Hastert is right.

Whatever we do in New Orleans, we need to start planning now for the next disaster-- planning for the effects of global warming, planning for rebuilding the coastline, planning for restoring and recreating the wetlands, planning for man-made flood control projects that will withstand the effects of the hurricanes that we know are coming, planning for a City that is built smarter.

The Real Costs of a Culture of Greed

The American Venice?

bLuE oRdEr wrote: Tex doesn't want to bash Bush. Tex luurrves Bush. He's responding to my hypothesis that global warming played a hand in this disaster.

I still think global warming is something we need to start taking seriously. If it wasn't a factor in this disaster, it's still predicted to be a factor in future disasters. If we escaped the consequences of global warming this time, we should count ourselves fortunate, and begin now to reverse the damage we're causing to our amosphere. Waiting until we're in a global warming induced emergency is the equivalent of doing nothing about flood control in New Orleans when we knew it was only a matter of time.

Although I've excoriated Bush for cutting funding for critical levee work in New Orleans, I'm actually against levees as a means of flood control. They are a poor solution to the problem. The coastline that protects New Orleans from the full brunt of a hurricane has been eaten away for years because of the levees. A proper flood control system would preserve the coastline and marshes-- flood control is an ecological service that these areas provide to society, but they've been destroyed by a combination of levees and wetlands development. The levees are necessary to protect development in the floodplains. On the other hand, not strengthening the levees resulted in catastrophic loss of life. It seems to me that when the floodplain is already develeoped, therefore, protecting lives in the developed floodplain makes repairs to the levees essential. That's why I blamed Bush for his role in this disaster. He knew there was a disaster in the making (He said nobody could have foreseen a break in the levees, but former Louisiana Senator John Breaux-- a Bush ally-- basically called him a liar when he said that he talked with Bush about the possibility of the levees breaking last year) and he did nothing about it. I think House Speaker Hastert is actually on the right track-- now that New Orleans is destroyed, we need to think about how we rebuild. Maybe certain areas of the floodplain in New Orleans shouldn't be rebuilt-- use a combination of natural and man-made flood protection to rebuild smarter. I don't know exactly what needs to be built, but I think Hastert is right.

Whatever we do in New Orleans, we need to start planning now for the next disaster-- planning for the effects of global warming, planning for rebuilding the coastline, planning for restoring and recreating the wetlands, planning for man-made flood control projects that will withstand the effects of the hurricanes that we know are coming, planning for a City that is built smarter.

The Real Costs of a Culture of Greed

The American Venice?

Your reasoning and examples are correct. However, they are oh so selective.

What did 40+ years worth Democrat control at the local, state and federal level get the State of Louisiana? We're looking at it.

Any politician from any party who had a hand in gambling that there would be no category 4 hurricane in New Orleans-- and therefore cut funding-- should be held accountable. Up to and including Bush, because he gambled and it happened on his watch.

Then there's the "relief effort"...

The Katrina Timeline

Katrina Chronology

Tex wrote: Actually, the seeds of this disaster were planted when algore burned over 450,000 lbs. of jet fuel flying to Kyoto.......

Gore Airlifts Victims Out Of New Orleans

Real shame about Gore burning all that jet fuel...

Noblesse Oblige?

bLuE oRdEr wrote:

The American Venice?

Among the Ruins, Something to Build On