Brokeback Mountain

68 Pontiac wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

taxi wrote: [The marriage was a mistake, it never should have had to happen, they felt forced to deny who they were.

A lot of closeted gays feel they have to get married, even today.

Slapped my head last night-- I totally missed the obvious. Gay man marries a woman, meets another gay man, 68 says the gay man and his wife should "work on their marriage."

O-Kay....

Sorry, call me what you will but not too accepting of the gay persuation.

JHC

And that is why in the early 60s when this movie takes place and still today, gays feel they need to stay closeted.

68 Pontiac wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

"Responsibility" has nothing to do with these sitautions. Are you really suggesting a straight woman should remain in a marriage with a gay man, just because that fits your personal notion of propriety?

I don't see the big issue. In marriage, sex drops off. For some a little and others completely off the map. I have friends that have little to no sex with their wives, simply because they don't have the sexual urges anymore (and no they aren't military). Do I understand this, hell no. . .but sex becomes a less important issue. That he is gay isn't a reason to break off a marriage, as they could turn into one of the many happy couples that simply don't have sexual relations. What about the more important parts of marriage? Friendship, guidance, stability, etc.

Cheating is cheating, whether it be someone of the opposite sex or the same.

JHC

The marriage doesn't end because he wants sex outside the marriage-- it ends because the marriage is a sham. I really don't understand how somebody who is in a committed relationship can have almost no understanding of human relationships. Your comments are made in complete denial of reality.

68 Pontiac wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: I completely agree with both statements. But I don't agree that these films are glorifying adultery, either. It's still all shades of gray...

Not to start another topic or thread, but have to completely disagree, as there is no grey area in life.

JHC

Now you're contradicting yourself. You have explicitly said there are grey areas in U.S. military matters. Is that not "life"?

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Now you're contradicting yourself. You have explicitly said there are grey areas in U.S. military matters. Is that not "life"?

Comrade, Checked my prior posts and can't find what you are refering to. Please explain?

JHC

It was probably in the IRan one. You said something about grey areas (more than once, really) with the U.S. One example: the good guys don't wear white hats, and the bad guys don't wear black hats.

68 Pontiac wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: I completely agree with both statements. But I don't agree that these films are glorifying adultery, either. It's still all shades of gray...

Not to start another topic or thread, but have to completely disagree, as there is no grey area in life.

JHC

all of life is grey areas, nothing in our reality is perfect. people HATE grey areas, they want everything to be simple so they have ideals which are black and white ... this is the universal human condition, the conflict between ideals and reality

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: It was probably in the IRan one. You said something about grey areas (more than once, really) with the U.S. One example: the good guys don't wear white hats, and the bad guys don't wear black hats.

Said that, but that doesn't imply grey area, simply people can be deceptive.

JHC

14% the title is a bad pun that makes you cringe.

68 Pontiac wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: --still all shades of gray..not really..

--no grey area in life.there are some-but not too often. JHC

zing -neworderonline has the world of politics , religion and cultural relations all clearly sorted out. ----here read cultural as either- straight- or organically gay- some people- just are - not after a hit on the head or bad violation. just are. different circuitry . edited after 68 Pontiac 10:26:00 on the right and wrong of some actions--the choices vs. consequences of an action.. plainly - take another step back :substance: and note that the politics that set up the situation in the first place are off. by that example- the Nazi persecution of Jewish. so then to break out of acceptable and take responsibility for the choice. ethics.

Edit: That posted all funky for some reason.

messed up here too.

I'm going to try to post this again.

68 Pontiac wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Well, you don't have to be accepting of the gay persuasion to see the utter futility in advising a gay man to work on his marriage with a (presumably) straight woman...

It's about responsibility. He chose to marry a woman. Just because he has lustful thoughts about men doesn't releave him of his responsibilities as a husband and possibly a father. Heck, I see women all the time I would love to jump in the sack with, but I have a responsibility to my family. Marriage is so much more than about sex. So the thought that he's a victim of society is complete rubish to me. He chose his route, and he sould take responsiblity for his actions.

JHC

A better comparison would be if you were responsible for your brother (for whatever reason). You meet girls you would love to jump in the sack with, but you never act on it because you know you can’t. Then one day you meet the woman you fall in love with (your wife), but you can’t be with her and rarely even see her, not only because of your responsibility to your family, but you also fear you will be killed if anyone finds out.

It’s not just about responsibility; it’s about hiding who you are.

A few grey areas:

1. A man marries a woman and years later she discovers his identity is a sham and in fact he's a serial killer who changed his identity to evade the law. Should she work on her marriage?

2. A man (foreign national) marries a woman and after he has his permanent residency status, he informs her that he only married her for the green card. Should she work on her marriage?

3. A man marries a woman for her money, as she accidentally discovers while on his computer. Should she work on her marriage?

4. A man marries a woman he does not love because she told him he was the father of her child. Later, he discovers that she deceived him because he had a good job, and she was already pregnant when their liaison occurred. Should he work on his marriage?

5. A man marries a woman he does not love because she deceives him that she's pregnant, when in fact she's not. Should he work on his marriage?

6. A man marries a woman because he's gay and wants to conceal that fact. Later, she discovers that he's gay, and has never loved her. Should she work on her marriage?

7. A man marries the boss' daughter, and later she discovers that he never loved her, but only married her to advance his career. Should she work on her marriage?

8. Ehh, I'm tired of this, so ... etc.

"Digital Mike Binoche" wrote:

Can't you see it's one of those bizarre 'where have our traditional, wholesome values gone?' for citizens of the U.S only?

I Concur

quality. international isn't. J.W.

Here's an example of black and white, please give your answer to:

You live in Germany during WWII. Your good friend arrives at your door. He informs you that he is Jewish, and that if caught he and his family will be taken to a concentration camp. You take in his family and hide them in your basement. A few hours later German military show up asking if you are harboring any Jews. You say "no".

Was it wrong to lie?

68 Pontiac wrote: Here's an example of black and white, please give your answer to:

You live in Germany during WWII. Your good friend arrives at your door. He informs you that he is Jewish, and that if caught he and his family will be taken to a concentration camp. You take in his family and hide them in your basement. A few hours later German military show up asking if you are harboring any Jews. You say "no".

Was it wrong to lie?

I think that's a good example of why black and white perspectives don't work. One could say "It's always wrong to lie," but that black & white perspective doesn't recognize the reality that life is shades of grey. Is it better to tell the truth in this instance, or to lie? I would say, and it appears you agree, that it's better to lie. Now if you're discussing the truth with your 2 year old, that's too complex a concept, so you'd just say "always tell the truth," and later, when your 2 year old is older and can handle more complex concepts, you'd say something akin to "always lie to the gestapo."

Comrade, Understand your point, and this example was explained to me a few years back as I actually first thought of grey areas existing.

Answer: It is always wrong to lie. The damage the truth would do makes it a choice. So lying would be wrong, but I would be willing to take the responsibility, judgement and punishment for lying rather than see my friend and his family perish.

Many of your marriage questions have similar reasoning. Thought it would be easier to explain it this way than to talk about each example you gave.

JHC

I fail to see why lying is always wrong. Telling the truth in this case leads to an injustice, while lying leads to justice. What purpose could possibly be served by elevating the importance of the truth above the importance of justice?

Your getting stuck on the injustice of it all.

You have two choices:

1. Tellthe truth, your friend is sent away.

2. you lie, and your friend is safe.

Both have consequences

1. You know you sent your friend to certian death.

2. Lying is punishable offense and could cause your own death.

In the end you have to chose which punishment is worth taking.

This is one problem our society has, when people make choices, but can't accept the concequences that come with these choices. Usually it is chalked up as grey area, so that they can feel like a victim, rather than see that they in fact chose the path they lead.

JHC

I feel like I'm reading Faust.

14 -K wrote: 14% the title is a bad pun that makes you cringe.

68 Pontiac wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: --still all shades of gray..not really..

--no grey area in life.there are some-but not too often. JHC

zing -neworderonline has the world of politics , religion and cultural relations all clearly sorted out. ----here read cultural as either- straight- or organically gay- some people- just are - not after a hit on the head or bad violation. just are. different circuitry . edited after 68 Pontiac 10:26:00 on the right and wrong of some actions--the choices vs. consequences of an action.. plainly - take another step back :substance: and note that the politics that set up the situation in the first place are off. by that example- the Nazi persecution of Jewish. so then to break out of acceptable and take responsibility for the choice. ethics.

A bit lost on what you are writing about??? Also why add stuff to my quote I never wrote??? Whatever.

JHC

68 Pontiac wrote:

14 -K wrote: 14% the title is a bad pun that makes you cringe.

68 Pontiac wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: --still all shades of gray..not really..

--no grey area in life.there are some-but not too often. JHC

zing -neworderonline has the world of politics , religion and cultural relations all clearly sorted out. ----here read cultural as either- straight- or organically gay- some people- just are - not after a hit on the head or bad violation. just are. different circuitry . edited after 68 Pontiac 10:26:00 on the right and wrong of some actions--the choices vs. consequences of an action.. plainly - take another step back :substance: and note that the politics that set up the situation in the first place are off. by that example- the Nazi persecution of Jewish. so then to break out of acceptable and take responsibility for the choice. ethics.

A bit lost on what you are writing about??? Also why add stuff to my quote I never wrote??? Whatever.JHC

ridiculous to quote- and quote - etc.ok.-for- 68-Pontiac- the problem? was agreeing with your point of view there. a few issues were raised. a plain movie , then about the strengths of (heterosexual) marriage, then about your setting up a situation to see if lying is ever acceptable. that you'd be prepared to face the consequences for speaking honestly. I said that's good- but then back up & look at the situation too. lying to 'officials that are carrying out horrid death orders. saying that the situation itself was unacceptable. not the lying or not- within it.- the lying is secondary within the reality of the bad politics. ----------

and anything that I've added- that there are some (grey areas ) - but not too often- is clearly in blue. was just trying to simplify things down to basics. that's all. 'night.

Generic wrote: ffs guys...it was just a movie...

right. just seemed to somhow, gosh , never happened before, go off on a tangent.

I'd go see it if they were porking the sheep

twist wrote: I'd go see it if they were porking the sheep

they are saving the sheep porking for the extended director's cut DVD

Guaranteed to move two units-- one in an Iowa cornfield and one Walhalla.

And loads in Kettering. :D

14 -K wrote: 68-Pontiac- the problem? was agreeing with your point of view there. a few issues were raised. a plain movie , then about the strengths of (heterosexual) marriage, then about your setting up a situation to see if lying is ever acceptable. that you'd be prepared to face the consequences for speaking honestly. I said that's good- but then back up & look at the situation too. lying to 'officials that are carrying out horrid death orders. saying that the situation itself was unacceptable. not the lying or not- within it.- the lying is secondary within the reality of the bad politics. ----------

and anything that I've added- that there are some (grey areas ) - but not too often- is clearly in blue. was just trying to simplify things down to basics. that's all. 'night.

Understood, didn't understand at first, thanks for clarifying. Still not sure why you added to my quotes, but don't worry about it.

The "lying" post was only a way to answer Comrade's other posts. Seemed to take the post off topic momentarily, but not meant to completely take it off point.

JHC

By the way, hopefully no one gets completely irritated by my postings. Trying to have an interesting conversation. Anyone out there married to an "English as a second language" spouse knows that it's hard to have deep conversations. This forum has been my outlet for that.

68 Pontiac wrote:

14 -K wrote: 68-Pontiac- and anything that I've added- that there are some (grey areas ) - but not too often- is clearly in blue. was just trying to simplify things down to basics. that's all. t.

--not sure why you added to my quotes, but don't worry about it. --- outlet for that.

great- glad that I've caught this- sorry. only added to point out a different view. was 3/4 in agreement just had the exceptions to any rule point. this neworderonline can be the greatest place to have a quick bash at 20- questions.. definitely. edit- being decisive is the best way to go. JW.

Actually I always thought of the "exception to the rule" as a personal philosophy, but I got myself in trouble ALOT. Found that I keep a more level head in decision making using the "black/white" rule. So it has become my new personal philosophy. JHC