US Marines expected to be charged with Haditha war atrocities

From BBC News, today:

The Haditha incident - where US marines are alleged to have killed Iraqi civilians last year - is the subject of growing concern in the United States.

Enough material has now been leaked to the media here to suggest to many Americans that the allegations are very serious and may well be true.

John Murtha, a former marine and Vietnam veteran who is now an anti-war Democratic congressman, said he believed civilians had been murdered in Haditha and senior officers had made an attempt to hide it.

"I know there was a cover-up someplace. They knew about this a few days afterwards," he told ABC television earlier this week.

"There is no question the chain of command tried to stifle this story. I can understand why, but that doesn't excuse it.

"Something like this has to be brought out to the public and the people have to be punished. This thing has been going on for six months - they knew the day afterwards."

In the face of these charges, Gen Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff - the president's most senior military adviser - is at the moment saying very little:

"Clearly the individuals involved - if they are responsible for the things they are being accused of - have not performed their duty the way that 99.9% of their fellow marines have.

"We'll get to the bottom of the investigation and take the appropriate action if there needs to be any."

What is interesting is that General Pace - himself a marine - does not dismiss the allegations out of hand or even suggest that they might be exaggerated.

And while he says he is waiting for the official investigations, others are not - the families of some marines who knew about the alleged incident have been talking.

One mother told ABC television that her son had been traumatised after being forced to photograph the bodies of civilians at Haditha, including a child who had been shot in the head.

The American public is generally very supportive of the troops and willing to accept that bad behaviour by a handful of soldiers or marines does not necessarily reflect on the whole mission.

But an atrocity on the scale being suggested now could well be a different matter."

The US must be getting more coverage of this than we are, as its just a breaking story over here. Are these people acceptable casualties of war?. I think not. Opinions please.

Why do you care?

Simple premise really. My Government is involved in this too, and our army is just as bad. I care, cos it would be nice if we could lead by example. No direct relatives, but friends and friends with relatives out there.

You don't care?

I bet he posts

What kinda car is that, Cath?

Comrade Shampanyov, Gentleman wrote: What kinda car is that, Cath?

a 1968 Pontiac!

Yeah, I think you're right. A Trans Am, right?

Comrade Shampanyov, Gentleman wrote: Yeah, I think you're right. A Trans Am, right?

Um.. I have no idea..

Defo a Trans Am.

Prime Detroit Iron

lets' bring out the Faux News nut jobs

hmm.. strange.. 2 trans am owners who cant agree..

Apparently the two dozen killed were in an insurgent stronghold, and the NY Times reported today that

A preliminary inquiry indicated that the civilians were killed during a four- to five-hour sweep, led by a handful of marines angry over the death of Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, of El Paso, Tex., who was killed as his patrol drove through the area.

Possibly it is just this small number of soldiers doing this (I'm guessing on my own that they may have rationalized amongst themselves that their enemy wasn't particular about avoiding civilians, so a 'let' give 'em a taste of their won medicine' line of argument got the best of their judgement).

Honestly, I've absolutely no idea about how I would react if I were in their situation, seeing my buddy's body blown apart might trigger a reaction in me.

Grateful Shed wrote: Faux News

a play on words I am fond of...

Pat McCrotch wrote: and Burt...yes...this story is just breaking on this side of the pond as well...

not having all of the facts in, it's very hard to know just what the hell happened...

but I can relay a story that my father told me about Vietnam...by the end of his second tour in Vietnam, he wasn't at all sure who to shoot at...he was on one helicopter, and as they were lifting off, the second chopper that was with them waited to pick up a (what they presume to be) mother and child that were running up to the chopper...thinking the pair might be running from the Viet Cong, they were going to whisk the pair off to safety...at the last moment, the woman tossed something into the second helicopter, and moments later, a grenade exploded in the chopper, killing several people, and obviously knocking the helicopter out of commission...the soldiers in the first helo immediately opened fire on the two that had run up, killing both of them...

doesn't really shed any light on the current situation...but just a little something to think about...

glad you brought this up, jeff. it's pretty obvious that what's happening in iraq isn't that different from what happened in vietnam: a conventional army fighting a guerrilla war. another my lai is bound to occur amongst all the confusion regarding who is a combatant and who isn't.

Nobs.

Is the situation in Iraq turning into a smaller scaled Vietnam here?

Al Jarvis wrote: The BBC appears to have left out details the Standard had earlier in the week about one of the murdered being gang-raped. One of the nastiest weapons of war in the modern age: rape.

Still, she was probably asking for it.

Dunno what offends me more really. Bunch of US squaddies going gung-ho (sad to say, as despicable a crime as they've committed you have to sit back and say, well you can kind of see why they did it and by saying that I'm by no way condoning their actions), er, or a select few hijacking this thread to talk about, um, cars. Is there a relevance with the car, I'm missing, or is this somehow supposed to be funny?!

Fcuking stomach-churning crimes though, whether committed by the US, by our boys (god forbid), insurgents or whatever.

Isn't the war so Americans can drive gas guzzlers?

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Al Jarvis wrote: The BBC appears to have left out details the Standard had earlier in the week about one of the murdered being gang-raped. One of the nastiest weapons of war in the modern age: rape.

Still, she was probably asking for it.

Dunno what offends me more really. Bunch of US squaddies going gung-ho (sad to say, as despicable a crime as they've committed you have to sit back and say, well you can kind of see why they did it and by saying that I'm by no way condoning their actions), er, or a select few hijacking this thread to talk about, um, cars. Is there a relevance with the car, I'm missing, or is this somehow supposed to be funny?!

Fcuking stomach-churning crimes though, whether committed by the US, by our boys (god forbid), insurgents or whatever.

Isn't the war so Americans can drive gas guzzlers?

I saw on CNN this morning that the "high" gas prices have caused an increase in "gas rage", people yelling at gas station attendants and/or driving off without paying for gas. Americans are so damn spoiled in this regard. One of my pet peeves is people bitching about the price of gas while they drive their damn Hummers and the people in Europe pay twice what we pay. Get real, people, there are more important things to complain about.

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Al Jarvis wrote: The BBC appears to have left out details the Standard had earlier in the week about one of the murdered being gang-raped. One of the nastiest weapons of war in the modern age: rape.

Still, she was probably asking for it.

Dunno what offends me more really. Bunch of US squaddies going gung-ho (sad to say, as despicable a crime as they've committed you have to sit back and say, well you can kind of see why they did it and by saying that I'm by no way condoning their actions), er, or a select few hijacking this thread to talk about, um, cars. Is there a relevance with the car, I'm missing, or is this somehow supposed to be funny?!

Fcuking stomach-churning crimes though, whether committed by the US, by our boys (god forbid), insurgents or whatever.

Isn't the war so Americans can drive gas guzzlers?

according to our president, whom i support blindly and without question, it's to bring democracy to a land that badly needs it. and also according to our president, whom i support blindly and without question, we are winning! hurrah!

AgentWood wrote:

according to our president, whom i support blindly and without question, it's to bring democracy to a land that badly needs it. and also according to our president, whom i support blindly and without question, we are winning! hurrah!

Correction.....you HAVE WON! remember he said so on some aircraft carrier like years ago.

Doctor? wrote:

AgentWood wrote:

according to our president, whom i support blindly and without question, it's to bring democracy to a land that badly needs it. and also according to our president, whom i support blindly and without question, we are winning! hurrah!

Correction.....you HAVE WON! remember he said so on some aircraft carrier like years ago.

now he's reverted to using the present tense again. who's the flip-flopper here?

My apologies Agent...I wasn't aware of that as I avoid listening to him speak on health grounds ;)

this story never made our local news and i don't watch that cable junk. kind of sad that the best sources for what's going on in my country are foreign

I wanna see BUSH charged with crimes against Humanity

Apparently all US Marines are now going to have 'ethics' lessons...

Like, hello, doesn't anyone teach them about the GENEVA CONVENTIONS which are suppoused to be incorporated into military standard operating procedures and taught to military personell all over the world!!!???

May they all when they :rip: !!!!!!!!!!

Oh, sorry, GENEVA is in Europe and the U.S. military forces don't seem to be aware that the land of the free and ideas of decency do actually extend beyond the Western & Eastern seaboards!

I guess I was summoned a little while ago with the 68 Firebird.

First, if I could ask that when typing Marines that you capatalize the "M". I appreciate the courtesy.

This is a mixed bag, I think. It really is difficult to make a full decision on this matter without more facts. I don't trust the press, especially Iraqi press out there. . .however, I do see how it could be a possible coverup. What ever the case, this is dangerous for the men and women currently deployed out there.

With this investigation, will come more rules and regulations atop of the normal Geneava Convention rules. It will make it more difficult to make split second decisions, which are life and death decisions. Here's an example : At one time there was a roadblock. Signs everywhere in Arabic to go around, makeshift barriers, bright yellow tank barriers. . .so basically it was extremely identifiable . Military members were directing traffic around the area. It was rush hour, so there where 100's of cars going in the same direction, around the road block. Out of nowhere this bus gases it straight for the roadblock (about 200 feet from the directed traffic), drives over some signs, so the immediate thought is that it is a suicide bomber. The military unloads on the bus. It comes to a halt, and everyone inside is killed. No explosives or weapons found, and no one knows why the driver did what he did.

Because of this incident, new rules came out that stated that if a vehicle is obviously not stopping and a threat, to fire a warning shot at the ground. If they keep coming, then to fire into the engine compartment (hopefully disabling the engine). If it keeps coming then to fire at the driver.

Now at first this sounds like a good rule of thumb, but put yourself in the guard's position. Three shots with given time between each to ensure the driver can react, and time to aim in, about 10 seconds. . .a car doing 30 MPH can cover 440 feet. If the warning shots aren't done the guard's life might be saved, but he will be court martialed. If he does the warning shots, high chance he will die, but his record is clean. Hell of a decision to make in a split second.

So to conclude, I think the importance of this topic isn't whether or not this is a cover up, but how will this effect those 99.9% others that are doing their job properly.

JHC

we had the same thing here in terms of shooting out cars at roadblocks. the way I see it, if someone says (or implies by the presence of a roadblock) "stop or i will shoot", and you choose to be shot it's yer own fault.

Having said that, all Armies have their share of bloodthirsty dickheads.

End of the day, you lot signed up to defend your country and are being used to line Bush and Cheney's pockets.