Lebanon

Yes I'm anti the lot of them! Bloody nutters, killing and maiming women and children on the flimsiest of excuses! You've got to be joking to suggest that the whole of Israel was bought from the Arabs, even if a few wealthy landowners flogged off parcels of it, that still left those that worked and lived on the land homeless. As for it being set up by the UN: at the end of WWII the UN was run at the behest of the USA/UK, and they supported an Israeli State as it would guard their (economic) interests in the area. Many prominent Jews at the time were totally opposed to Zionism and the idea of a "Jewish homeland" including Einstein.

MIMX wrote: Yes I'm anti the lot of them! Bloody nutters, killing and maiming women and children on the flimsiest of excuses! You've got to be joking to suggest that the whole of Israel was bought from the Arabs, even if a few wealthy landowners flogged off parcels of it, that still left those that worked and lived on the land homeless. As for it being set up by the UN: at the end of WWII the UN was run at the behest of the USA/UK, and they supported an Israeli State as it would guard their (economic) interests in the area. Many prominent Jews at the time were totally opposed to Zionism and the idea of a "Jewish homeland" including Einstein.

I said the Jews primarily bought land from Arab landowners, I did NOT say "the whole of Israel was bought from the Arabs". Please read more carefully. Yes, I was actually going to say in my last post that the UK was primarily responsible for the forming of Israel. I don't doubt you that it was done by the US & UK to promote their own self interests.

I've to "read more carefully"!

Johnny Come Lately wrote: I am wondering why nobody has mentioned the situation in Lebanon on here.

This board was full of opinions on other conflict, most notably the ongoing trouble in Iraq.

People seem to shy away from discussion of the Middle East problem and I’ve never sure why this is.

Is it because the situation is very complicated and nobody really understands it?

Or is it because people feel unwilling to voice their opinions in case they find themselves at odds with everyone else?

Surely not many people can think of a logical argument to support the terrible campaign of murder that they are inflicting on Beirut at the moment. But in saying that, I’m criticising the Jews – right? Is that what people are afraid of?

Why?

If the UK had responded to Republican terrorism by bombing Ireland back into the Stone Age in the 1980s, there would have been an international outcry.

Why is it okay for Israel to do that to Beirut now?

Personally I dislike discussing the topic because there are so many people I know/have known with a huge vested emotional/personal interest in the conflict (namely, Jews, Arabs and Muslims) and I often seem to end up thinking 'who am I to think I know what the answer is when I don't have anything like as much at stake'.

One depressing aspect of it all seems to be the lesson that suffering doesn't make people good, quite the opposite, it damages them (just one example: decades of Western backed oppression in Iran ultimately giving us a nation led by a Holocaust-denying nutcase).

I just don't understand what Israel think they are achieving by these actions. Their previous invasions of Lebanon acheived nothing constructive. Did they look at the horrible mess the US and UK are in in Iraq and think 'hmmm, looks good, we want some of that'? But I equally don't understand why Iran/Syria were so keen to provoke all this in the first place.

404 error wrote:

Johnny Come Lately wrote: I am wondering why nobody has mentioned the situation in Lebanon on here.

This board was full of opinions on other conflict, most notably the ongoing trouble in Iraq.

People seem to shy away from discussion of the Middle East problem and I’ve never sure why this is.

Is it because the situation is very complicated and nobody really understands it?

Or is it because people feel unwilling to voice their opinions in case they find themselves at odds with everyone else?

Surely not many people can think of a logical argument to support the terrible campaign of murder that they are inflicting on Beirut at the moment. But in saying that, I’m criticising the Jews – right? Is that what people are afraid of?

Why?

If the UK had responded to Republican terrorism by bombing Ireland back into the Stone Age in the 1980s, there would have been an international outcry.

Why is it okay for Israel to do that to Beirut now?

Personally I dislike discussing the topic because there are so many people I know/have known with a huge vested emotional/personal interest in the conflict (namely, Jews, Arabs and Muslims) and I often seem to end up thinking 'who am I to think I know what the answer is when I don't have anything like as much at stake'.

One depressing aspect of it all seems to be the lesson that suffering doesn't make people good, quite the opposite, it damages them (just one example: decades of Western backed oppression in Iran ultimately giving us a nation led by a Holocaust-denying nutcase).

I just don't understand what Israel think they are achieving by these actions. Their previous invasions of Lebanon acheived nothing constructive. Did they look at the horrible mess the US and UK are in in Iraq and think 'hmmm, looks good, we want some of that'? But I equally don't understand why Iran/Syria were so keen to provoke all this in the first place.

Perhaps we should ask Mel Gibson what he thinks, eh??!!

1/4 bottle of tequila is not really enough to explain that sort of behaviour.

Lightweight

Mel Gibson came along just in time to play the distractor, but even Mel isn't big enough to distract people from what happened in Qana. Mel is an asshole for what he said and driving drunk in the first place. Note to Mel: Get a chauffeur! You obviously can't afford not to have one.

One of the biggest weapons Israel has always had is accusing people of being anti-Jewish, sometimes the accusations are true, sometimes they're not. Mel probably is, Ghandi was not.

By the way, anti-Zionist does not equal anti-Jewish. Not all Jews are Zionist. Most Zionists are not even Jewish and they're usually poorly informed.

In all I've read I see not many people truly understand why Israel has responded the way they have. It's interesting to see how the media reports on what is going on - with a lack of understanding, or is it intentional...?

Hezbollah started this all off by kidnapping Isreali soldiers, all Israel wants is to have them back, dead or alive.

Hezbollah knows this and intentionally started the conflict to further the Muslim resolve to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. (It's interesting to note that Spain is on the list too!)

Anyway, now I'll be seen as a Muslim hater - it happens when you state what they really mean to non Muslims. (For the record I am not).

Two soldiers kidnapped and three killed is justification for the killing of hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians? Sure Hezbollah has rockets but they were not used until after Israel started its indiscriminant bombing of Lebanon. Hezbollah clearly stated that the kidnappings were committed to engage in a prisoner exchange, not war. There is far more evidence indicating that Israel is using the kidnappings as an excuse to move back into Lebanon. Contrary to most news reports, Israel never did leave Lebanon altogether in the first place.

Moral superiority is maintained by behaving morally. Does anyone honestly believe that Israel is behaving morally?

Swirling Eddy wrote: In all I've read I see not many people truly understand why Israel has responded the way they have. It's interesting to see how the media reports on what is going on - with a lack of understanding, or is it intentional...?

Hezbollah started this all off by kidnapping Isreali soldiers, all Israel wants is to have them back, dead or alive.

Hezbollah knows this and intentionally started the conflict to further the Muslim resolve to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. (It's interesting to note that Spain is on the list too!)

Anyway, now I'll be seen as a Muslim hater - it happens when you state what they really mean to non Muslims. (For the record I am not).

See, that doesn't make any sense to me. Hezbollah kidnapped a number of Israeli soldiers in order to try and get a prisoner exchange (and this is in the context of an ongoing border dispute). The Israeli response just seems ridiculously disproportionate, and was clearly planned beforehand.

I agree that the media gives misleading reports, for example talking about Hezbollah's rocketing of Israel as if that provoked the Israeli attack rather than coming afterwards.

Plato wrote: Sure Hezbollah has rockets but they were not used until after Israel started its indiscriminant bombing of Lebanon.

eh? hezbollah's been firing rockets into israel for decades now; however, it rarely makes the news. back in 2001 i was driving along the israeli-lebanese border when hezbollah began firing katyusha rockets into the golan heights and hula valley. i heard them fall through the air and watched them land several hundred feet from the car. IDF tanks retaliated with gunfire and we watched them travel over the road into mt. hebron ski area (yes, there's a ski area on the israeli-lebanese border!).

also, in the 1990s it wasn't unusual for hezbollah rockets to land in the town of kiryat shmona. basically, border skirmishes between the IDF and hezbollah are quite common.

Funny how Eurodiplomacy is stuck :

Legacy of History. The Israel state settled on pieces of land under British authority. The Lebanon was a French "protectorat" (not a colony, something more loose). Total different points of view on the subject of cease-fire in 2006.

By the way... France had the same contract with Syria... It seems we know how to make friends... However the link between Damas and Paris is not as important as it still remains with Beyrouth.

To be honest, I thought that something was to happen with the Lebanon when a Lebanese general (or former general) was shot dead one or two years ago. That was followed by Syrian army withdrawal... What I think deeply about the Lebanon is that this country has been and still remains a battlefield for its neighbours... a deadly playground...

AgentWood wrote:

Plato wrote: Sure Hezbollah has rockets but they were not used until after Israel started its indiscriminant bombing of Lebanon.

eh? hezbollah's been firing rockets into israel for decades now; however, it rarely makes the news. back in 2001 i was driving along the israeli-lebanese border when hezbollah began firing katyusha rockets into the golan heights and hula valley. i heard them fall through the air and watched them land several hundred feet from the car. IDF tanks retaliated with gunfire and we watched them travel over the road into mt. hebron ski area (yes, there's a ski area on the israeli-lebanese border!).

also, in the 1990s it wasn't unusual for hezbollah rockets to land in the town of kiryat shmona. basically, border skirmishes between the IDF and hezbollah are quite common.

'Fair enough, teach me not to break my own rule and start expressing opinions on the subject. I guess I meant previous rocket firing was sporadic and long term - it wasn't the immediate cause of the Israeli attack.

Plato wrote: Mel Gibson came along just in time to play the distractor, but even Mel isn't big enough to distract people from what happened in Qana. Mel is an asshole for what he said and driving drunk in the first place. Note to Mel: Get a chauffeur! You obviously can't afford not to have one.

Don't blame Mel-it's the Jews' fault!

I looked into Shaba farms. The land appears to be part of Syria but owned by Lebanese farmers. The land does not belong to Israel but its military has continued to occupy it even after its pullout from Lebanon in 2000. I posted this as a clarification to an earlier link: Israel's "new Middle East".

THIS JUST IN: Canadian Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, and his sidekick the Honourable Peter McKay are now officially the newest members of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Dubbya sends his congratulations. A Foreign Affairs Standing Committee convened a self-congratulatory meeting to celebrate during which the Honourable Minister McKay reiterated how the Hezbollah rocket attacks were unprovoked. Here's a CNN article from July 12-13: "Israel authorizes 'severe' response to abductions" but oddly no mention of Hezbollah rockets.

By the way, no one here is calling Hezbollah 'good guys' because it is obvious that in this war there are no good guys, just bad and worse.

Plato wrote: I looked into Shaba farms. The land appears to be part of Syria but owned by Lebanese farmers. The land does not belong to Israel but its military has continued to occupy it even after its pullout from Lebanon in 2000. I posted this as a clarification to an earlier link: Israel's "new Middle East".

THIS JUST IN: Canadian Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, and his sidekick the Honourable Peter McKay are now officially the newest members of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Dubbya sends his congratulations. A Foreign Affairs Standing Committee convened a self-congratulatory meeting to celebrate during which the Honourable Minister McKay reiterated how the Hezbollah rocket attacks were unprovoked. Here's a CNN article from July 12-13: "Israel authorizes 'severe' response to abductions" but oddly no mention of Hezbollah rockets.

By the way, no one here is calling Hezbollah 'good guys' because it is obvious that in this war there are no good guys, just bad and worse.

At last! Someone honest and lacking in ego enough to admit that his/her in-depth knowledge of convoluted foreign conflicts was culled directly from the info-democracy of Google 5 minutes before posting here.

Plato: I salute you!!

Peddlers of endless fucking factoids: FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!

good tune esp. if segued with Life In a Northern Town.

Jiphy wrote: To be honest, I thought that something was to happen with the Lebanon when a Lebanese general (or former general) was shot dead one or two years ago. That was followed by Syrian army withdrawal... What I think deeply about the Lebanon is that this country has been and still remains a battlefield for its neighbours... a deadly playground...

Had friends in the Army who went off to Beirut in the mid-80.s came back with stories of how Beautiful the area could be. The Boulevards and Architecture. And what a mess the politics were. That the Arab-Israeli conflicts of 1948 was still talked about. Sometimes Daily. Because it is a part of Life.

The other night reading a newpaper from the stand and this man says behind me to bomb them all. I asked him why so. For 20mins. we Brilliantly -might add- determined that this already happening. But has to stop. Fast enough that it doesn't go Nuclear and to at least get running water to the population. While President Bush continues to make an ass of himself and Global relations.

(The Good Doctor) Martin Fradley wrote:

Plato wrote: I looked into Shaba farms. The land appears to be part of Syria but owned by Lebanese farmers. The land does not belong to Israel but its military has continued to occupy it even after its pullout from Lebanon in 2000. I posted this as a clarification to an earlier link: Israel's "new Middle East".

THIS JUST IN: Canadian Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, and his sidekick the Honourable Peter McKay are now officially the newest members of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Dubbya sends his congratulations. A Foreign Affairs Standing Committee convened a self-congratulatory meeting to celebrate during which the Honourable Minister McKay reiterated how the Hezbollah rocket attacks were unprovoked. Here's a CNN article from July 12-13: "Israel authorizes 'severe' response to abductions" but oddly no mention of Hezbollah rockets.

By the way, no one here is calling Hezbollah 'good guys' because it is obvious that in this war there are no good guys, just bad and worse.

At last! Someone honest and lacking in ego enough to admit that his/her in-depth knowledge of convoluted foreign conflicts was culled directly from the info-democracy of Google 5 minutes before posting here.

Plato: I salute you!!

Peddlers of endless fucking factoids: FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!

!

(The Good Doctor) Martin Fradley wrote:

Plato wrote: I looked into Shaba farms. The land appears to be part of Syria but owned by Lebanese farmers. The land does not belong to Israel but its military has continued to occupy it even after its pullout from Lebanon in 2000. I posted this as a clarification to an earlier link: Israel's "new Middle East".

THIS JUST IN: Canadian Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, and his sidekick the Honourable Peter McKay are now officially the newest members of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Dubbya sends his congratulations. A Foreign Affairs Standing Committee convened a self-congratulatory meeting to celebrate during which the Honourable Minister McKay reiterated how the Hezbollah rocket attacks were unprovoked. Here's a CNN article from July 12-13: "Israel authorizes 'severe' response to abductions" but oddly no mention of Hezbollah rockets.

By the way, no one here is calling Hezbollah 'good guys' because it is obvious that in this war there are no good guys, just bad and worse.

At last! Someone honest and lacking in ego enough to admit that his/her in-depth knowledge of convoluted foreign conflicts was culled directly from the info-democracy of Google 5 minutes before posting here.

Plato: I salute you!!

Peddlers of endless fucking factoids: FUCK OFF!!!!!!!!!

I admit that when it comes to the nitty gritty details I do have to look them up and check out their accuracy particularly when it pertains to more recent events in the Middle East conflict. It's very difficult to keep on top of everything and frankly it gets to be very irritating and upsetting. I do however know quite a bit about the beginnings and essentially the heart of the conflict from the late 1800's to the 1970's.