murderous world powers

Which world power has been historically responsible for the most detriment and bloodshed?

I'm looking in the way of the British Empire, the United States more recently, Spain in the Age of Exploration, Germany, etc.

Please discuss.

I think you have to start with the first real "superpower", Rome. They basically set down the ground rules for being supremely powerful and arrogantly decadent. Plus, what other society has not only sanctioned murder as necessary but also turned it into a form of entertainment with the gladitorial contests? You've got people being killed for the crowd's enjoyment.

The Brits have a lot to answer for, to be sure, but the Romans set the standard, and every other power ever since has simply tried to measure up.

I agree about Rome. They treated the conquered people quite brutally at times. They'd break agreements they had with the "barbaric" tribes if it suited their needs. They exterminated entire subspecies of animals by slaughtering them all in their gladitorial games. The amount of cruelty and bloodshed in those places was increadible. Yeah, I know it was a different culture and different morals and all that, but come on!

EDIT: it seems to me that the Romans were best at two things: Engineering and brutality. At least we can still admire much of the engineering even today.

Another point about Rome: when someone says that we can cite how many people Mao's China, Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany, etc., slaughtered over the years, that's because we have the modern convenience of being able to calculate numbers based on historical evidence. But I'm willing to bet even the most conservative estimates about how many people lost their lives under Roman rule is way off the mark, simply because no one dared keep track of it. Think about the early church when Nero started throwing Christians into the lion's den and burning them for his own amusement. I doubt the Romans had anything like an organized campaign to wipe out an entire people (ala the Holocaust or the gulags), but they certainly did their best when it suited them.

His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Which world power has been historically responsible for the most detriment and bloodshed?

I'm looking in the way of the British Empire, the United States more recently, Spain in the Age of Exploration, Germany, etc.

Please discuss.

I would say its a Church, if it counts. It was really detrimental to the people in general I think. British Empire, Rome, US, Spain in the Age of Exploration, Nazis or Stalin - that was only temporary. Church is making a permanent disaster for over 2000 years. Thats my opinion.

Though I agree with Rome, I think the balance of good that they did throws the light to Spain during their world exploration. At least with Rome, they "tried" to bring better life to the "barbarian horde".
The Spanish conquistadors, however were only interested in gold and fortune, killing off entire civilizations. They made the conquered people slaves, and forced them to believe in Catholicism or be killed. I don't think there is a worse time in human history where a peoples were so heavily devestated over such a wide area. I also don't think there is another time where a peoples were so overpowered and outmatched in weaponary.

JHC

i'll nominate the new Babylonian empire.

AUSTIN

probably the spanish conquistadors in the americas. i'm not sure of the exact numbers, but i believe disease, slavery and war killed approximately 90 million people during the age of exploration. that's pretty hard to beat. (to paraphrase eddie izzard: 'if someone kills one person you call them a murderer. if someone kills 100,000 people what do you say? erm, well done?') guns, germs and steel is a good book to read, explaining why europeans (most notably the spaniards) managed to colonize the rest of the world instead of vice versa.

i've been kinda worried about turkmenistan for a few years now. they've been flying under the radar, but i think they'll show their full plumage one of these days.

Funny, no one's mentioned the Swiss yet... :violent2:

Taboo # 7 wrote: Funny, no one's mentioned the Swiss yet... :violent2:

ever heard of the dessert death by chocolate? ;)

Us Brits were mightily impressive during the Crusades. Think we bumped off 4 million that didnt wanna become Christians.

But.. if you wanna put it down to cause rather than a country, then I have to agree with Arek. Religion wins, hands down..

Burt Reynolds wrote: Us Brits were mightily impressive during the Crusades. Think we bumped off 4 million that didnt wanna become Christians.

don't forget those christians in eastern europe/asia minor who spoke a different language, and were killed 'cause the crusaders didn't understand them as they said 'don't kill me please! i'm one of you guys!'

AgentWood wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote: Us Brits were mightily impressive during the Crusades. Think we bumped off 4 million that didnt wanna become Christians.

don't forget those christians in eastern europe/asia minor who spoke a different language, and were killed 'cause the crusaders didn't understand them as they said 'don't kill me please! i'm one of you guys!'

I did a module for my history degree on the Crusades, and the amount of rape and pillage going on also, was a real eye-opener. Knights Templars were a bunch of fecking nutters, recruited from all over the world. When they conquered another region they grabbed all the mad bastards and made them Knights, it appears.

arek p. wrote:

His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Which world power has been historically responsible for the most detriment and bloodshed?

I'm looking in the way of the British Empire, the United States more recently, Spain in the Age of Exploration, Germany, etc.

Please discuss.

I would say its a Church, if it counts. It was really detrimental to the people in general I think. British Empire, Rome, US, Spain in the Age of Exploration, Nazis or Stalin - that was only temporary. Church is making a permanent disaster for over 2000 years. Thats my opinion.

68Pontiac wrote: Though I agree with Rome, I think the balance of good that they did throws the light to Spain during their world exploration. At least with Rome, they "tried" to bring better life to the "barbarian horde".
The Spanish conquistadors, however were only interested in gold and fortune, killing off entire civilizations. They made the conquered people slaves, and forced them to believe in Catholicism or be killed. I don't think there is a worse time in human history where a peoples were so heavily devestated over such a wide area. I also don't think there is another time where a peoples were so overpowered and outmatched in weaponary. JHC

Very true. They were bastards in the Americas, at the very same time they were being bastards back in Europe with th Spanish Inquisition. Thousand of people put to death for no particularly good reason. Like the Salem witch trials on a much larger scale.

AgentWood wrote: probably the spanish conquistadors in the americas. i'm not sure of the exact numbers, but i believe disease, slavery and war killed approximately 90 million people during the age of exploration. that's pretty hard to beat.

Done primarily, I think, for gold. Ah, how noble.

Actually, I saw something on the History Channel stating something to the effect that a few years before Pizarro destroyed the Incan empire, some Spaniards has briefly been in the area, and were there long enough to spread some disease (mainly smallpox). By the time Pizarro showed up, the Incan population was already decimated. They speculated that if Pizarro had shown up a year earlier, they may very well have lost to the Incas. I suspect that would have only delayed the inevitable, though.

Which world power has been historically responsible for the most detriment and bloodshed?

Not to hijack this thread, but I thought your "Favorite sexual position. Discuss" question had a greater impact on mankind.

LE Roberts wrote:

Which world power has been historically responsible for the most detriment and bloodshed?

Not to hijack this thread, but I thought your "Favorite sexual position. Discuss" question had a greater impact on mankind.

Yeah, that one was pretty classic. I haven't been able to think of a good one since then. Maybe something revelant about deep vaginas vs. shallow vaginas. I'll give it some thought.

something revelant about deep vaginas vs. shallow vaginas

Well, it's all relative.

Moreso if you live in the south.

Taboo # 7 wrote: Funny, no one's mentioned the Swiss yet... :violent2:

Taboo, you post complete bollocks.

If I ever meet you I'll probably hit you.

Do I win £40?

arek p. wrote: I would say its a Church, if it counts. It was really detrimental to the people in general I think. British Empire, Rome, US, Spain in the Age of Exploration, Nazis or Stalin - that was only temporary. Church is making a permanent disaster for over 2000 years. Thats my opinion.

Arek ! You answered quickier than me !

And as His Holiness the Pope is the one who started the thread, I wanted to say that His Holy Company has been the most efficient so far. Not the will to be particulary kind to Him, but yes, He can be proud to be the chairman of the most bloody one. Well, Romans entertained themselves with the first christians, which can be seen as a bit primitive, but the Church brought this game out of the arenas... which is a great step towards civilization and democracy. They forgot all of the genius of the Romans (middle age seems more obscure than antiquity, doesn't it ?), they fought against every one who did not believe in their God (and still do), they carry on spreading stupid fairy tales by now, they condamn the use of condoms... well they are still on the top...

Shellshocker wrote: Very true. They were bastards in the Americas, at the very same time they were being bastards back in Europe with th Spanish Inquisition. Thousand of people put to death for no particularly good reason. Like the Salem witch trials on a much larger scale.

Well, if I take a look at the history of the place I belong. First civilization known : Greeks. Peaceful time. Second : Etruscans. Peaceful time. Third : Romans. Peaceful time, second richest part of the Roman Empire. Fourth : Cathares (very critical about Roman Church) slaughtered by the Catholic French army. The sentance "Tuez-les tous, Dieux reconnaîtra les siens" (Kill to them all, God will recognize His) has been said in Béziers in the XIII century. This was followed by the famous Spanish inquisition. Fifth : Protestants. Louis XIV sent his army and protestants had to face this choice : convert or die. A lot of people died. So, what may we think ? A peace of France far from any famous battlefields. The only times civilians have been murdered by soldiers, it was made by our own army thanks to the Church !!!

Jiphy, after reading all that youve wrote I can say you are the perfect antichrist, hehehe

so am I :evil:

Jiphy wrote:

arek p. wrote: I would say its a Church, if it counts. It was really detrimental to the people in general I think. British Empire, Rome, US, Spain in the Age of Exploration, Nazis or Stalin - that was only temporary. Church is making a permanent disaster for over 2000 years. Thats my opinion.

Arek ! You answered quickier than me !

And as His Holiness the Pope is the one who started the thread, I wanted to say that His Holy Company has been the most efficient so far. Not the will to be particulary kind to Him, but yes, He can be proud to be the chairman of the most bloody one. Well, Romans entertained themselves with the first christians, which can be seen as a bit primitive, but the Church brought this game out of the arenas... which is a great step towards civilization and democracy. They forgot all of the genius of the Romans (middle age seems more obscure than antiquity, doesn't it ?), they fought against every one who did not believe in their God (and still do), they carry on spreading stupid fairy tales by now, they condamn the use of condoms... well they are still on the top...

The Catholic church is stuck in the 5th century. I can't beleive people are still faithful to that crap (no offense to the Catholics on this board!:) ).

Jiphy wrote:

arek p. wrote: I would say its a Church, if it counts. It was really detrimental to the people in general I think. British Empire, Rome, US, Spain in the Age of Exploration, Nazis or Stalin - that was only temporary. Church is making a permanent disaster for over 2000 years. Thats my opinion.

Arek ! You answered quickier than me !

And as His Holiness the Pope is the one who started the thread, I wanted to say that His Holy Company has been the most efficient so far. Not the will to be particulary kind to Him, but yes, He can be proud to be the chairman of the most bloody one. Well, Romans entertained themselves with the first christians, which can be seen as a bit primitive, but the Church brought this game out of the arenas... which is a great step towards civilization and democracy. They forgot all of the genius of the Romans (middle age seems more obscure than antiquity, doesn't it ?), they fought against every one who did not believe in their God (and still do), they carry on spreading stupid fairy tales by now, they condamn the use of condoms... well they are still on the top...

First, before i say this I do not condone the acts of religious killing done in the Middle Ages. However, it was a different time than today. The Roman Empire fell, and stable civilization fell. Crime and constant warring tribes where the precident. There was no central government to look to and no real leaders to speak of (though Charlemane tried, but didn't last long enough to make a real impact). Stability and learning fell on the surrounding monastaries. These monks were peaceful and kept to themselves. However, over time, people wanted stability. They looked to the Church for this, as there was no stable government to do so. Once this power started to come to the monastaries, curroption came....as power does to anything. Muslims had taken over Spain, and there was a fear that they would overcome Europe. They figured that saving the "Holy Land" would save them. Thus started the Crusades.

It's not like the Church just went out on a killing spree in a peaceful enviroment creating havoc as you make it sound.

JHC