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pumped full of drugs wrote: Just give all of North and South Dakota to them, why not. Then make Iraq and England the 49th and 50th states.
Yup. Because no one in their right minds would want to keep hold of Scotland, Wales and 'Northern Ireland'. Oh, wait... D'Oh!
Comrade Shampanyov wrote:
EdelBrock wrote: They regularly help the communities they are around. They aren't taxed, but yet they are very generous. For instance, I live 5 minutes away from one of the nicest Indian casinos I've ever seen (its like a small Las Vegas casino). They have voulantarily donated funds that built the new (and really nice) library, among other things. So that States are not trying to close them down.
I didn't say they're trying to close them down. They're trying to stop them before they are built...
not really a reply to the above comment....
Comrade Shampanyov wrote:
EdelBrock wrote: Also, the unemployment is so high because the stipulation for the government support is that they live and work within the reservation. As soon as they live or work outside the reservation the government support stops.
Unemployment is so high because there's little-to-no economic development on the reservations. Tribal members are often faced with a choice of leaving the reservation to find work, or staying on the reservation, to keep their ties to their culture and their families, with the price often being unemployment.
Again, not sure how your affirming my comment is a retort?
Comrade Shampanyov wrote:
EdelBrock wrote: The reasoning is to support their way of life that might have difficulties surrounded with a society based on capatalism.
The reasoning is treaty obligations we incurred in exchange for taking their lands. Which, once those treaty obligations are violated as you and Mr. Barcode advocate, probably gives the tribes a legal basis for taking their lands back. In the case of the Lakota, that would mean a claim to 5 states.
Neither of us are 'advocating' to take thier lands or break treaties, only mentioning the reality of the situation, instead of taking a 'warm and fuzzy' approach that doesn't have real world applications....
Comrade Shampanyov wrote:
EdelBrock wrote: The main issue people have had is that the casinos are not the 'Indian' way of life,
Anybody who thinks that gambling isn't part of the "Indian way of life" should really take the time to learn something about Indian culture.
Such is the ignorance of society... but that doesn't change the issue people have with the casinos in the first place...
Comrade Shampanyov wrote:
EdelBrock wrote: so does it mean that they should still receive government support? Also some wish to tax the casinos, but that is really those that lack knowledge of the assistance the tribes give voulantarily (which is probably way more than any tax would bring in). The tribes I know live in harmony with their surrounding communities. I don't see why the Lakotas can't do the same...
Reading In the Spirit of Crazy Horse would be a good start to gaining some understanding.
This article is also in response to the 2 year old article you posted earlier as well.... ignorance can be overcome, and both CAN work together....
Doctor? wrote:
His Holiness, The Pope wrote:
EdelBrock wrote:
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: I'm fairly certain that the tribes would just as soon have Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, and South Dakota back, and let us keep the pittance we've been paying them.
Something tells me we'd rather keep paying them the pittance.
or we could just stop paying them, taken them completely over, and then there wouldn't be any 'pittance' to worry about. Granted a harsh comment, but their society only exists because our society allowed it to remain...
What an astonishingly ignorant and racist thing to say.
Yes, but sadly it is also 100% accurate, AND in line with general US polocy. I think the gist of what Edel is saying is, "praise us, for we've acted just a teensy weensy bit better than the Nazi's" (Mind you, I don't think the SS used plague infected charity donations).
The Treaies between the natives and the christian invaders are the world's greatest proof of Burroughs' wisdom..... "if you do business with a god fearing sonofabitch, GET IT IN WRITING, his word aint worth shit, not with the good lord tellin' him how to fuck you on the deal".
Course the DID get it in writing, but what court could they take it to when they got fucked.
Pope, ignorant... maybe.... racist.... my comment has nothing to do with race, only that a conquered society is allowed to exist because the conquering peoples have decided to allow it to survive....
Cambo, though you have the basic gist of what I was trying to get across, I think we apply 21st century standards to 19th century people... and that's simply not fair. Attrition warfare was the rule of the world and the early policies were set by these standards... not the same standards we have today.
Yes, the Indians were screwed... I don't think anyone is arguing differently on that point... but blaming it on Christianity isn't fully correct either... what civilization throughout history hasn't screwed over the ones with less power?
My sister-in-law is a 3rd generation Huron from Quebec City (trust me, it was her grand-mother, and she doesn't look any different!)
Of course, some nations adapted a lot better than others, and the Huron are one of them... those who live on "reserved" lands don't pay any taxes, and they get all kind of previleges. She does pay taxes because she's not living there, but has all the other things such as getting paid for going to school, etc.
On the other hand, you have the Mohawk nation... those are scumbags, criminals, and people unable to adapt to the society they live in even 400 years later. They have casinos, they are always asking for more things, don't pay electricity bills, many are drug lords, they did the 1990 Oka crisis in Canada, they host most of the online casinos of the planet because our government are affraid of them.
And worst, they speak english 
, and barely french... needless to say they were affiliated with the english and the Huron with the french in the history of Canada.
Oh I forgot... the Mohawk reserv of Akwasasne has its territory in the border of Quebec, Ontario and the USA..
This is the major spot for drugs and firearms smuggling between Canada and the USA.
And of course, one last thing... when you go into any reserved land, there is a cigarette booth at each street corner...
And trust me... it wasn't that way before 1990... now it's trying to squeeze the lemon as much as you can because no government will bother them, and about 2 years ago, a small group set fire to the native police station and to the chief's house... nice group of people.
Spotnick wrote: On the other hand, you have the Mohawk nation... people unable to adapt to the society they live in even 400 years later.
You say "unable to adapt," they say "unwilling to assimilate."
Speaking of which, how's that assimilation with the English working out for the Quebequois?
EdelBrock wrote:
Doctor? wrote:
His Holiness, The Pope wrote:
EdelBrock wrote:
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: I'm fairly certain that the tribes would just as soon have Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, and South Dakota back, and let us keep the pittance we've been paying them.
Something tells me we'd rather keep paying them the pittance.
or we could just stop paying them, taken them completely over, and then there wouldn't be any 'pittance' to worry about. Granted a harsh comment, but their society only exists because our society allowed it to remain...
What an astonishingly ignorant and racist thing to say.
Yes, but sadly it is also 100% accurate, AND in line with general US polocy. I think the gist of what Edel is saying is, "praise us, for we've acted just a teensy weensy bit better than the Nazi's" (Mind you, I don't think the SS used plague infected charity donations).
The Treaies between the natives and the christian invaders are the world's greatest proof of Burroughs' wisdom..... "if you do business with a god fearing sonofabitch, GET IT IN WRITING, his word aint worth shit, not with the good lord tellin' him how to fuck you on the deal".
Course the DID get it in writing, but what court could they take it to when they got fucked.
Pope, ignorant... maybe.... racist.... my comment has nothing to do with race, only that a conquered society is allowed to exist because the conquering peoples have decided to allow it to survive....
That the "conquered people" were being conquered based on their race and not on their specific nationality, ideology, etc. should tell you that American policies of extermination were inherently racist. The complete appropriation of native lands was still policy until the 1940s, when the reservation system was set up proper, so it's not like this is the ancient past. And don't even tell me that the Indians didn't have to fight for their "pittance." (Better yet, try telling an AIM member that.)
Of course, following your logic, the only reason that a "conquered" people like the Puritans were allowed to survive was because the friendly Indians kept them alive during the winter. The proto-Americans would have been well and surely fucked without being given their own pittance. But, oh well, let's reward them with genocide and cultural destruction and then say, "Well, they lost the battle, so they deserve to lose their culture." Nice self-justifying racist logic and a wonderful way to whitewash history while not comprehending the deeper reasons that Indian cultures are in decline. Maybe you should spend some time talking to people on a reservation and see what they have to say on the subject, mmm?
His Holiness, The Pope wrote: That the "conquered people" were being conquered based on their race and not on their specific nationality, ideology, etc. should tell you that American policies of extermination were inherently racist. The complete appropriation of native lands was still policy until the 1940s, when the reservation system was set up proper, so it's not like this is the ancient past. And don't even tell me that the Indians didn't have to fight for their "pittance." (Better yet, try telling an AIM member that.)
Of course, following your logic, the only reason that a "conquered" people like the Puritans were allowed to survive was because the friendly Indians kept them alive during the winter. The proto-Americans would have been well and surely fucked without being given their own pittance. But, oh well, let's reward them with genocide and cultural destruction and then say, "Well, they lost the battle, so they deserve to lose their culture." Nice self-justifying racist logic and a wonderful way to whitewash history while not comprehending the deeper reasons that Indian cultures are in decline. Maybe you should spend some time talking to people on a reservation and see what they have to say on the subject, mmm?
What exactly are you on about?
How am I 'whitewashing history'?
I have no issue with Indians or reservations... and if you noticed my other posts, I mentioned how we can live in harmony... as it DOES happen.
And there are two Indian reservations where I live now, one was the home to many I went to high school with... so to assume I'm an 'ignorant, whitey out for all races other than my own' is an ignorant comment in itself...
I'll state AGAIN, I agree the Indians got screwed... most policies of late have been trying to correct this... but in the end the conquering group is the one that makes the policies and writes history... it doesn't make it right, but that's life... we can either keeping looking in the past, or we can move forward, I prefer moving forward....
EdelBrock wrote: we can live in harmony... as it DOES happen.
Before you launch into a chorus of Ebony and Ivory—and who ever figured you for a Macca and Jacko fan -- you really should learn something about relations between the Lakota, the surrounding white communities, the State of South Dakota, and the Federal government. And yes, those relations are rooted in events begun in 1866-- events the result of which continue to reverberate today, despite your blind insistence that the past and the present are severable.
In the Spirit of Crazy Horse is a good place to start if you want to understand why singing Ebony and Ivory doesn’t work in South Dakota—aside from the fact that Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy is more popular there. A pair of films address the same events covered in Matthiessen’s book. One, Incident at Oglala, is a documentary, while the other, Thunderheart, is a fictionalized portrayal of the same events. British filmmaker Michael Apted directed both films, which were released concurrently.
EdelBrock wrote: I'll state AGAIN, I agree the Indians got screwed... most policies of late have been trying to correct this... but in the end the conquering group is the one that makes the policies and writes history... it doesn't make it right, but that's life... we can either keeping looking in the past, or we can move forward, I prefer moving forward....
They’re still getting screwed, EdelBrock . You can’t separate the past from the present and move forward when the racism, violence, and exploitation of the past is still occurring today.
His Holiness, The Pope wrote:
Brock wrote:
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: I'm fairly certain that the tribes would just as soon have Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, and South Dakota back, and let us keep the pittance we've been paying them.
Something tells me we'd rather keep paying them the pittance.
or we could just stop paying them, taken them completely over, and then there wouldn't be any 'pittance' to worry about. Granted a harsh comment, but their society only exists because our society allowed it to remain...
What an astonishingly ignorant and racist thing to say.
Aye about par form the course from someone who's spent way to much time playing little boy soldier and nowhere near enough time gaining an education and understanding of the world.
But Edel, here's a wee hint; Leaders Lie.
That is why it's called propaganda, and Hollywood is notorious for it's bastardising and rewriting of history!
Real thinking isn't referred to as using your critical faculties for nothing!
As someone who comes from a long line of auto-didactic Scotsmen, and is proud of his Chippewa/Ojibwa blood: get an education before you spout biased racist prejudice as in any way having a bearing on reality!
WE, (on the other hand) believe in the Land of Love!
And in Insight...
One of these days I'll manage to work out how you can listen to NO &/or JD and still "get these words wrong every time."
Or do you just ignore the lyrics?
MIMX wrote:
His Holiness, The Pope wrote:
Brock wrote:
Comrade Shampanyov wrote: I'm fairly certain that the tribes would just as soon have Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, and South Dakota back, and let us keep the pittance we've been paying them.
Something tells me we'd rather keep paying them the pittance.
or we could just stop paying them, taken them completely over, and then there wouldn't be any 'pittance' to worry about. Granted a harsh comment, but their society only exists because our society allowed it to remain...
What an astonishingly ignorant and racist thing to say.
Aye about par form the course from someone who's spent way to much time playing little boy soldier and nowhere near enough time gaining an education and understanding of the world.
But Edel, here's a wee hint; Leaders Lie.
That is why it's called propaganda, and Hollywood is notorious for it's bastardising and rewriting of history! Real thinking isn't referred to as using your critical faculties for nothing! As someone who comes from a long line of auto-didactic Scotsmen, and is proud of his Chippewa/Ojibwa blood: get an education before you spout biased racist prejudice as in any way having a bearing on reality!WE, (on the other hand) believe in the Land of Love!
And in Insight...
I'm still confused how that was a 'racist' remark
Something tells me you didn't read much of the other posts?
Comrade Shampanyov wrote:
EdelBrock wrote: we can live in harmony... as it DOES happen.
Before you launch into a chorus of Ebony and Ivory—and who ever figured you for a Macca and Jacko fan
In the Spirit of Crazy Horse is a good place to start if you want to understand why singing Ebony and Ivory doesn’t work in South Dakota—aside from the fact that Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy is more popular there. A pair of films address the same events covered in Matthiessen’s book. One, Incident at Oglala, is a documentary, while the other, Thunderheart, is a fictionalized portrayal of the same events. British filmmaker Michael Apted directed both films, which were released concurrently.
EdelBrock wrote: I'll state AGAIN, I agree the Indians got screwed... most policies of late have been trying to correct this... but in the end the conquering group is the one that makes the policies and writes history... it doesn't make it right, but that's life... we can either keeping looking in the past, or we can move forward, I prefer moving forward....
They’re still getting screwed, EdelBrock . You can’t separate the past from the present and move forward when the racism, violence, and exploitation of the past is still occurring today.
Like I mentioned earlier... I can't speak for how reservations are in other States, I can only mention what I have seen here in California. My only point is that it is possible to live in harmony. There is a vicious circle or hatred on both ends, and at some point it needs to stop for it to get better... but forcing one side to stop while the other keeps going won't fix it either.
You can seperate past from present, though it is very difficult to do... its the only way to break that vicious circle... saying that it's not possible only sets up for excuses for people to hate each other further.
It is sort of reparations towards the indian tribes, except for actually giving land and nationality back. Why not tax breaks and special business opportunities for African slave descendants then?
Maybe it would be for the best for the governement to be less involved and just treat these Indian descendant people as people, as american citizens, and let them group or move as they like just like other citizens. Maybe I'm insensitve, and I do live far away from casinos and reservations, but it's hard to understand that there is that much left of these cultures except facades. What is left of European mixed cultures from those whose descendants immigrated from Europe in the 1800s or of African descendants of people who were stolen from Africa.
Then you get to issue of race, which is such a fuzzy idea.... the idea of a "pure" race is absurd and false. How are people really members of a "nation" based on race?
EdelBrock wrote: Like I mentioned earlier... I can't speak for how reservations are in other States, I can only mention what I have seen here in California. My only point is that it is possible to live in harmony. There is a vicious circle or hatred on both ends, and at some point it needs to stop for it to get better... but forcing one side to stop while the other keeps going won't fix it either.
You can seperate past from present, though it is very difficult to do... its the only way to break that vicious circle... saying that it's not possible only sets up for excuses for people to hate each other further.
You seem content to continue to misunderstand the situation.
I noticed that the entire Indian subject is a taboo in American media and that's understandable. Few Americans can admit that their country was built on Indian bones and blood, that they had to "clean up the space" by termination of the aboriginals, because it would ruin the patriotic harmony.
As for drawing parallels with Negroes, yes, both Indians and blacks, up to 1960s, had been completely neglected by WASP society. But Negroes had sympathetic ideologists among whites as well as black spiritual leaders and political activists who had clearly stated demands. Unluckily for Indians, they didn't have political leaders (due to the multitribal nature of their race and federal policy to deal separately with tribes causing subsequently unhelpful intertribal rivalry). Furthermore, the nature of the relationship between whites and Indians was antagonist, while Negroes were considered either being slaves/servants or being equal citizens albeit rather uneducated and undeveloped (according to the prevailing point of view among "progessive" intellectuals of 1890-1910s). Negroes have eventually conquered their right to be mentioned in US history books and to take a bigger part in social life. The Indians' voice was barely heard.
pumped full of drugs wrote:
Then you get to issue of race, which is such a fuzzy idea.... the idea of a "pure" race is absurd and false. How are people really members of a "nation" based on race?
Exact-a-mundo*!*** PFD (The Only Way To Be***!***)
The very issue that neither the Nazi's, nor South Africa in the Apartheid era, could ever settle satisfactorily. There's only one "race" left and that's Homo-Sapiens; who came out of Africa about 200,000 years ago!
So when the N.F/Combat 18 or whatever your regional half-witted racist idiots call themselves say "send them back" the African Continent would quickly become evermore crowded as the rest of the world empties. Rant against the Ignorant...... assholes....an OrderofJoyProduction By MIMX
a.k.a
[black]MALCOLM X[/black]
Comrade Shampanyov wrote:
Spotnick wrote: On the other hand, you have the Mohawk nation... people unable to adapt to the society they live in even 400 years later.
You say "unable to adapt," they say "unwilling to assimilate."
Speaking of which, how's that assimilation with the English working out for the Quebequois?
Due to a huge failure, they are now tring to do it by sending us tons of immigrants that don't speak french :p
