Benazir Bhutto killed by suicide bomber

Bloody ell

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,70131-1298475,00.html

Shocking but not surprising. It's a great loss for Pakistan and democracy in general.

johnny wrote: Bloody ell http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,70131-1298475,00.html

Bloody-fucking-'ell!

Just watched the news and this didn't even get a mention.

agreed Kev & RIP

"I really don't think she ever thought it would come to this"

I KNEW it would come to this

not good

RIP

Terrible situation.

Shocking news. RIP

Another example of caring, sharing, gentle, loving religion.

Jeffari-al-Texani wrote: Breaking details say she was shot...head, neck and chest... not that it really makes a difference...

I dunno Jeff, may make a difference. A suicide bomber, meant almost anyone could be responsible. But my 1st thought on hearing the news was "Musharraf will be pleased.". A shooting makes his, or his underlings/henchman's, involvement seem more likely. Poor bloody woman, spends half her life under house arrest, and finally falls to an assassins bullets, and for what? For wanting (political) democracy (pity she couldn't make the leap to realising that without economic democracy political democracy is unachievable.) Still... R.I.P she deserved better.

Shouldn't went home in the first place... It's a dangerous life she's living there...

The killer just made her a heroine and made himself a villain...

Indeed!

Shocked. It's more than anything tells about the actual chaos that reigns in Pakiston now.

The entire region from Palestine to Iraq to Iran to Afganistan to Pakistan is fucked up.

it's not at all surprising, but still a shame.

she wasn't free from corruption, but she was certainly better than what they have now under musharraf.

RIP Benazir

fucking muslim fanatics

Funny how Western leaders are now back to being friendly with Musharraf, after condemning him only weeks ago.

Looks like a state sponsored plan worked to me....

But lets blame it on Al Qaeda or the Taliban.

Security analysts quoting the Political rhetoric that's in the Press is quite.. nauseatin.

Politics. Poverty. Military rule. Cyclical in Pakistan. Power, Corruption and Lies. No matter how they're banging on the Urban Cntre has the $ and the rest of the Country has the numbers.

Says the Islamic Extremists have very little to gain in carrying out the assassination.

That there'd be no Logic in doing so. Logic?! so in theory until proved it's the Military being blamed. Sorry, the Car's sunroof and at least three Bullet shots.

the country is just getting worse to go to, one of the few countries now on my list not to go to if i wanna live a long life, israel and lebanon, with along with n. korea, syria, iran, iraq and afghanistan.....

Like a friend of mine said TODAY, Americans have to bring another Hussein to power in Iraq to stabilize the region. Only such types of politicians (like Musharaff) can handle those countries. Though Iraq was screwed up from the beginning by the British.

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote: Like a friend of mine said TODAY, Americans have to bring another Hussein to power in Iraq to stabilize the region. Only such types of politicians (like Musharaff) can handle those countries. Though Iraq was screwed up from the beginning by the British.

.... and Russia needs another Stalin. Putin and democracy just aren't working are they. Oh Dear.

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote: Like a friend of mine said TODAY, Americans have to bring another Hussein to power in Iraq to stabilize the region. Only such types of politicians (like Musharaff) can handle those countries. Though Iraq was screwed up from the beginning by the British.

Thats a very harsh view of Musharraf. Compared to Hussein, he is St Francis of Assisi. Problem is and has always been you cant run the country and the army at the same time. He was running the cricket team until recently too, and ironically they got worse after he stopped.

Big problem for Bush now, in that having declared he wants him out in favour of Bhutto (more or less), he now has to throw his weight back behind him, as the alternatives are far more scary. Bush keeps pushing for democracy in a country with a high radical Muslim population, parts of which are lawless and ungoverned. And they've got Nukes. Never quite understood why things are turning on Musharraf in favour of democracy, but with Bhutto gone, I'm sure things will go quiet on that front.

Rumour has it, (I heard it in pub off a Reuters bloke, so it must be true ), that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are so enraged at having the blame pinned on them, that they are going to release statements of denial (which is very rare for them), so I'm taking it they did f'all.

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote: Though Iraq was screwed up from the beginning by the British.

A sweeping statement there. A little bit of truth in it, as we did create Iraq, but the biggest contributory factor to us pulling out in 1947 and the rest of our empire was the crippling reparations payments following WWII. Truman was a hard bastard. That is, most definitely, another argument though.

Burt Reynolds wrote: Big problem for Bush now, in that having declared he wants him out in favour of Bhutto (more or less), he now has to throw his weight back behind him, as the alternatives are far more scary. Bush keeps pushing for democracy in a country with a high radical Muslim population, parts of which are lawless and ungoverned.

And they've got Nukes. Never quite understood why things are turning on Musharraf in favour of democracy, but with Bhutto gone, I'm sure things will go quiet on that front.

Rumour has it, (I heard it in pub off a Reuters bloke, so it must be true ), that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are so enraged at having the blame pinned on them, that they are going to release statements of denial (which is very rare for them), so I'm taking it they did f'all.

The Nuclear part is a Head- ache.

The Last part is quite Funny.

The official line from Pakistan is now that she bumped her head on her car roof. So are they going to try to say that her death was suicide?

NOOLigan wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote: Like a friend of mine said TODAY, Americans have to bring another Hussein to power in Iraq to stabilize the region. Only such types of politicians (like Musharaff) can handle those countries. Though Iraq was screwed up from the beginning by the British.

.... and Russia needs another Stalin. Putin and democracy just aren't working are they. Oh Dear.

Every country passes through its own stages of political development at different pace. At this stage of civic development, Putin suits Russia well, like no one else would. The countries over there, especially with ethnic issues, still need authoritarian rulers.

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote: ... The countries over there, especially with ethnic issues, still need authoritarian rulers.

Aye, bring back the Divine Right of Kings for the ignorant foreigners "over there." Another Xerxes or Saladin that's the answer!

Arrghhhhhhhh!

& & & & & &

Ow! My poor fucking head!

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

NOOLigan wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote: Like a friend of mine said TODAY, Americans have to bring another Hussein to power in Iraq to stabilize the region. Only such types of politicians (like Musharaff) can handle those countries. Though Iraq was screwed up from the beginning by the British.

.... and Russia needs another Stalin. Putin and democracy just aren't working are they. Oh Dear.

Every country passes through its own stages of political development at different pace. At this stage of civic development, Putin suits Russia well, like no one else would. The countries over there, especially with ethnic issues, still need authoritarian rulers.

Ian, you have missed my point. My point was that Russia has proved that it can operate as a democracy, well sort of a democracy, and it used to be said that it too needed a dictator in charge.

"Those counties" as Mimx has pointed out is a racist view. Just look next door to Pakistan. India is the largest democracy in the world and don't tell me that they don't have greater ethnic and religious minorities than Pakistan.

I won't even mention the shared heritage and history of Pakistan and India. No I don't need a history lesson of the post colonial creation of both.

It is true that some counties are are artificial creations and probably should not exist in their current form as they cut across ethnic and religious boundaries. Well that's the post colonial legacy. Iraq and several African states come to mind here. Pakistan however isn't one of these states.

NOOLigan wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

NOOLigan wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote: Like a friend of mine said TODAY, Americans have to bring another Hussein to power in Iraq to stabilize the region. Only such types of politicians (like Musharaff) can handle those countries. Though Iraq was screwed up from the beginning by the British.

.... and Russia needs another Stalin. Putin and democracy just aren't working are they. Oh Dear.

Every country passes through its own stages of political development at different pace. At this stage of civic development, Putin suits Russia well, like no one else would. The countries over there, especially with ethnic issues, still need authoritarian rulers.

Ian, you have missed my point. My point was that Russia has proved that it can operate as a democracy, well sort of a democracy, and it used to be said that it too needed a dictator in charge.

Those counties as Mimx has pointed out is a racist view. Just look next door to Pakistan. India is the largest democracy in the world and don't tell me that they don't have greater ethnic and religious minorities than Pakistan.

I won't even mention the shared heritage and history of Pakistan and India. No I don't need a history lesson of the post colonial creation of both.

It is true that some counties are are artificial creations and probably should not exist in their current form as they cut across ethnic and religious boundaries. Well that's the post colonial legacy. Iraq and several African states come to mind here. Pakistan however isn't one of these states.

Not to go deeper, I'll point at only one factor: radical islamist movements. Even "peaceful" India could run amok if there would be enough of that factor. Gee, it was a very wise move to separate India and Pakistan.

Hence my view. Not because these people don't "deserve" democracy or a better life, but because they haven't solved their religious issues that still fire up the region. I don't want a country with weak democracy, militant islamism and nuclear weapon together. It's simply a greater risque for everybody.

The same for Africa. Most "countries" there hadn't have political and civic culture. Nevertheless, they were left to govern vast territories without any culture of political or economical development. They moved in palaces, established embassies, received the newest weapons as well as pointless development program funds, and the rest is history.

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

...The same for Africa. Most "countries" there hadn't have political and civic culture. Nevertheless, they were left to govern vast territories without any culture of political or economical development...

Oh, of course. Stupid us! Thinking those "ignorant Africans" like Egyptians and Carthaginians ever had culture!

Again...

Arrghhhhhhhh!

& & & & & &

Ow! My poor fucking head!

MIMX wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

...The same for Africa. Most "countries" there hadn't have political and civic culture. Nevertheless, they were left to govern vast territories without any culture of political or economical development...

Oh, of course. Stupid us! Thinking those "ignorant Africans" like Egyptians and Carthaginians ever had culture!

Well I meant Black Africa. Or Algeria and Morocco are much better (they belong to a different civilization anyway)?

MIMX wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

...The same for Africa. Most "countries" there hadn't have political and civic culture. Nevertheless, they were left to govern vast territories without any culture of political or economical development...

Oh, of course. Stupid us! Thinking those "ignorant Africans" like Egyptians and Carthaginians ever had culture!

Again...

Arrghhhhhhhh!

& & & & & &

Ow! My poor fucking head!

Before you start claiming Ian is making racist comments, have YOU actually been to any of these countries? Especially where Africa / Middle East is all screwed up???

The people that live there aren't ready for democracy, because their mindset is stuck. It will take a few generations to get a society that even BELIEVES that democracy is even possible... and that will require an act of God.

What it really comes down to is not the dictators, but more the ideals and beliefs of the society... the dictator can help direct it, but when the people are content with their positions in life, its hard to get them to improve...

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

Well I meant Black Africa.

Again...

Arrghhhhhhhh! & & & & & & Ow! My poor fucking head!

I've only two words for ignorant racist xenophobes like yourself...

...and the second one is OFF!

And now we see why so many seppos think the pyramids were built by aliens. Cos whitey cannae handle being out-engineered 20-to-1 by a bunch of N*s!

Ever see a film about ancient Egypt? Ever see one where the Egyptians were anything but whute guys with a tan?

Pathetic.

And it's not that some people are not ready for democracy....some of them don't like the idea, so respect that and leave them alone.

Doctor? wrote: And now we see why so many seppos think the pyramids were built by aliens. Cos whitey cannae handle being out-engineered 20-to-1 by a bunch of N*s!Ever see a film about ancient Egypt?Ever see one where the Egyptians were anything but whute guys with a tan?Pathetic....* And it's not that some people are not ready for democracy....some of them don't like the idea, so respect that and leave them alone.

Once again thank you Doc.

There's a few of the above posters who need to look up the word "Nubian", for a kick off.

*****My emphasis.

MIMX wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

Well I meant Black Africa.

Again... Arrghhhhhhhh! & & & & & & Ow! My poor fucking head! I've only two words for ignorant racist xenophobes like yourself... ...and the second one is OFF!

Look, just because I dare to say that Africans are "responsible" for a major part of what's going on with their countries doesn not mean I'm a racist, or just because I don't constantly blame Europeans for the African abyss of poverty and death (I know, it's a ritual for the Leftists). All I can say about the entire situation it's a great tragedy.

EdelBrock wrote:

Before you start claiming Ian is making racist comments, ...

Before you start defending ignorant racist xenophobes maybe you should try reading their comments!

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

Well I meant Black Africa.

(I think the vast majority of Africans [except that tiny minority, the descendants of the white incomers, offspring of the imperialist ruling class mostly] would be extremely surprised to find out that they aren't black!)

MIMX wrote:

(I think the vast majority of Africans [except the descendants of the white incomers, offspring of the imperialist ruling class mostly] would be extremely surprised to find out that they aren't black!)

Black Africa is a commonly used term meant to distinguish the Negro-populated part of the continent from that with the prevailing Arab population (roughly speaking - below the Sahara region, including Chad, the Sudan). How else do you call that region? I don't imply a negative meaning here. SIMPLY.

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

MIMX wrote:

(I think the vast majority of Africans [except the descendants of the white incomers, offspring of the imperialist ruling class mostly] would be extremely surprised to find out that they aren't black!)

Black Africa is a commonly used term meant to distinguish the Negro-populated part of the continent from that with the prevailing Arab population (roughly speaking - below the Sahara region, including Chad, the Sudan). How else do you call that region? I don't imply a negative meaning here. SIMPLY.

"rant... simply rant... simply rant... simpleminded rant"

Go and find out what Nubian means/is! Then you can go home and cuddle up to your copy of "Mein Kampf."

MIMX wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

MIMX wrote:

(I think the vast majority of Africans [except the descendants of the white incomers, offspring of the imperialist ruling class mostly] would be extremely surprised to find out that they aren't black!)

Black Africa is a commonly used term meant to distinguish the Negro-populated part of the continent from that with the prevailing Arab population (roughly speaking - below the Sahara region, including Chad, the Sudan). How else do you call that region? I don't imply a negative meaning here. SIMPLY.

"rant... simply rant... simply rant... simpleminded rant"

Go and find out what Nubian means/is! Then you can go home and cuddle up to your copy of "Mein Kampf."

I know about Nubian but it has nothing to do with Kongo or Ivory Coast or with my point of view, whereas I was talking about the lack of political culture in various countries of our time. Don't have me go to the Babylon Zoo.

Jesus-fucking-suffering-H-Christ!

Yet Again...

Arrghhhhhhhh!

& & & & & &

Ow! My poor fucking head!

Nubian's are generally accepted to be amongst the "darkest" peoples of Africa and inhabit parts of Egypt and large tracts of the Sudan. Then as... Now. Today.

"These Days!"

But... Enough is more than a sufficiency. I'll leave it to someone else; with a greater sufferance of fools than I to try to educate ignoramuses.

My poor fucking head!

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote: Like a friend of mine said TODAY, Americans have to bring another Hussein to power in Iraq to stabilize the region. Only such types of politicians (like Musharaff) can handle those countries. Though Iraq was screwed up from the beginning by the British.

iraq was screwed up by the ottoman dynasty of turkey, they were in there for like hundreds of years, the brits were there for like only decades

BIGINAMERICA wrote: The official line from Pakistan is now that she bumped her head on her car roof. So are they going to try to say that her death was suicide?

no, just the force of the explosion, caused her to jolt to the lever of the sunroof, if you didnt see the gunman shooting at her, i have seen the footage, i think there is a government conspiracy then, and why havent they arrested the people on the phone congratulating the militants, i dont know, but there you go

MIMX wrote:

EdelBrock wrote:

Before you start claiming Ian is making racist comments, ...

Before you start defending ignorant racist xenophobes maybe you should try reading their comments!

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

Well I meant Black Africa.

(I think the vast majority of Africans [except that tiny minority, the descendants of the white incomers, offspring of the imperialist ruling class mostly] would be extremely surprised to find out that they aren't black!)

While I agree Ian did not use the best words to describe his point.. I think, MIMX, that you are getting caught on a few words and completely ignoring the point he is making. The point is not racist and I really don't believe he meant any racist connections when he stated this, but a poor judgement in vocabulary.

Doctor? wrote:

And it's not that some people are not ready for democracy....some of them don't like the idea, so respect that and leave them alone.

You mention this as if they have put personal great thought into government structures, and by reason of deduction they CHOSE not to desire democracy....

That is the biggest issue we have as Westerners... we try putting ourselves in their shoes, which is utter bollocks, as we can't even comprehend how they think. It has little to do with differences in culture, which everyone wants to point out as the main culprit.

The main issue is due to the ability to control one's own life. They are born in an enviroment that strips away desire for personal accomplishments for a personal future. They live day to day and treat issues that we take dear with the concept of a child. A child doesn't question why their parents tell them to go from point A to point B; they don't question why they get punished; they don't question anything that their parents expect of them.... instead a child wants that feeling of stability surrounding them that is supplied by the parent... and this is even the case when there is an abusive parent. These people have the EXACT same mindset.

The problem we have is trying to mature a society from a 5 year old mindset to a mature grownup... and that takes time... but yet everyone thinks we could do it within a few year timespan...

I agree with Doc? - leave them alone. But I know it's impossible in reality, since there's too much temptation to sell 'em weapons, syphon billions of dollars into suspicious funds, etc.

And MIMX just to end that nonsense and reproaching you exposed me to. I talked about Black Africa not in terms of the color of skin, damn it, I used it as a term covering the region that includes all white settlers and Indians, too, okay? I did not introduce the term. No more on that, please.

MIMX wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

...The same for Africa. Most "countries" there hadn't have political and civic culture. Nevertheless, they were left to govern vast territories without any culture of political or economical development...

Oh, of course. Stupid us! Thinking those "ignorant Africans" like Egyptians and Carthaginians ever had culture!

Sorry, but I've got to go with Ian on this one. You've completely mischaracterized everything he's said.

1. Ian never said "Africans never had culture." He said "Most 'countries' there hadn't have [sic] political and civic culture."

Big difference between what Ian said and that straw man you set up and keep taking a whack at.

As I'm absolutely certain you're well aware of, most "countries" in Africa are the result of a European colonial legacy that ignored tribal and religious differences when drawing territorial lines on the map. Prior to colonization, most of these “countries” never existed—many regions of Africa were governed on a tribal model, rather than a national model. After colonization, “countries” consisting of tribes that had never been in the same political unit, and were often mortal enemies, were expected to govern themselves, when they had never had any experience of doing so.

I.e., these "countries" had never been countries, and thus had no "political and civic culture."

Surely you know this history? And surely you understand what Ian means by “political and civic culture”?

2. Your own bias betrays itself when you select Egypt and Carthage as your representation of African culture. True, they are both African cultures—specifically, North African cultures, which is to say, not black African cultures. Carthage was, in fact, a Phoenician city, founded by Phoenicians from Tyre, on what is now the coast of Lebanon. Egypt was a culture that originated in Africa, but Egyptians were not Nubians, they were not “black” (i.e., sub-Saharan Africans), they were Egyptian (although "Egyptian" is even more diverse than I've portrayed). Africa is far more diverse than you give it credit for—i.e., not all African cultures are “black.” Nor are the North African cultures you cited as evidence of African culture the only examples of African culture. I won’t pretend to hold any expertise in African culture, but “black” Africa does have a history prior to European colonization— Nubia, Ethiopia, Timbuktu, and the Kongo being a few examples.

I don't often agree with Ian, but before you call him an "ignorant racist xenophobe," you should first adress what he actually said, rather than that straw man you labored to construct, and second, you should try to understand that Africa is far more diverse than you've portrayed it to be.

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Egypt was a culture that originated in Africa

Nah it didn't. They came from Mars through a big effing Stargate. Saw a documentary about it once with that James Spader in it.

Anyways, WTF has this got to do with Bhutto? :offtopic:

Sorry , bit confused on the big squabble on how exactly she died She's dead as result of the assasin /suicide bomber so ,erm , what difference does it make?

Burt Reynolds wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Egypt was a culture that originated in Africa

Nah it didn't. They came from Mars through a big effing Stargate. Saw a documentary about it once with that James Spader in it.

I stand corrected.

(wonder what happens if I accidentally type "Shug" instead of "shrug"?)

Burt Reynolds wrote: Anyways, WTF has this got to do with Bhutto? :offtopic:

Wouldn't be BHD if it was on topic.

Back on topic: Who stood to gain the most from Bhutto's assasination? Musharaff, obviously. Seems to be the consensus in the streets of Pakistan, too.

johnny wrote: Sorry , bit confused on the big squabble on how exactly she died She's dead as result of the assasin /suicide bomber so ,erm , what difference does it make?

Well having seen the footage available widely on TV networks of a guy with a handgun shoot her at least three times before she um... banged her head on the sunroof, I would have thought method of death is important. Considering Musharraf was so quick to put her in the ground in accordance with Islamic tradition, despite neither her or him being devout practising Muslims, its all a bit odd. One wonders if those bullets were standard issue Pakistani govt weaponry.

So it might be important johnny.

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

Back on topic: Who stood to gain the most from Bhutto's assasination? Musharaff, obviously. Seems to be the consensus in the streets of Pakistan, too.

Short term yes. I dont think he has much of a long term though. Unless a credible 'US-friendly' (i.e. anti-radical Muslim) candidate appears very fast, then I suspect the country is on the verge of civil war. And in this case, I would fully back a Western invasion of the place at the merest hint of the radicals taking over. Much as i respect Musharraf for holding the place together, his time is gone, and he's missed an opportunity this week of holidng on to some power and respect i reckon.

Iran is on hold; Pakistan is far more dangerous, with India, China and Russia bordering.

ah right with yers now, could have been government jobby.cheers for clears!

Chris Nash wrote: Is it too early for the sick jokes to start?

No! By no means, wait any longer, and it'll be too late. ("At a later date/Someone somewhere blew it.") Come on Chris let the cat out the bag... ...was it the same sick joke that immediately sprang to my mind, I wonder?

(PS: To the wee white right-wing posters above; If you think I'm going to waste breath/words in debating your ludicrous argument that anyone other than a white western male is some sort of semi-human childlike sub-species, and western British and/or American capitalism is the pinnacle of human achievement then you are sadly mistaken. Your own words are more than enough to condemn you, and expose you to the ridicule you so richly deserve.)

Yer a bad man Chris...

MIMX wrote: (PS: To the wee white right-wing posters above; If you think I'm going to waste breath/words in debating your ludicrous argument that anyone other than a white western male is some sort of semi-human childlike sub-species, and western British and/or American capitalism is the pinnacle of human achievement then you are sadly mistaken. Your own words are more than enough to condemn you, and expose you to the ridicule you so richly deserve.)

For somebody who thinks that "African culture" (not forgetting that you have completely mischaracterized what Ian said) consists of ancient North African civilizations, you sure have a lot to say about those straw men you keep setting up.

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

MIMX wrote: (PS: To the wee white right-wing posters above; If you think I'm going to waste breath/words in debating your ludicrous argument that anyone other than a white western male is some sort of semi-human childlike sub-species, and western British and/or American capitalism is the pinnacle of human achievement then you are sadly mistaken. Your own words are more than enough to condemn you, and expose you to the ridicule you so richly deserve.)

For somebody who thinks that "African culture" (not forgetting that you have completely mischaracterized what Ian said) consists of ancient North African civilizations, you sure have a lot to say about those straw men you keep setting up.

FFS you finally find someone here who is as big an intellectual wanker as yourself and you proceed to fight with him.

Ian when Commie is defending you, you know it is time to run.

NOOLigan wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

MIMX wrote: (PS: To the wee white right-wing posters above; If you think I'm going to waste breath/words in debating your ludicrous argument that anyone other than a white western male is some sort of semi-human childlike sub-species, and western British and/or American capitalism is the pinnacle of human achievement then you are sadly mistaken. Your own words are more than enough to condemn you, and expose you to the ridicule you so richly deserve.)

For somebody who thinks that "African culture" (not forgetting that you have completely mischaracterized what Ian said) consists of ancient North African civilizations, you sure have a lot to say about those straw men you keep setting up.

FFS you finally find someone here who is as big an intellectual wanker as yourself and you proceed to fight with him.

Do treat us to another lecture on "the Nazis"...Unless your lips are still too puffy from your latest collagen treatment.

Actually, that would be quite entertaining.

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

MIMX wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

MIMX wrote:

(I think the vast majority of Africans [except the descendants of the white incomers, offspring of the imperialist ruling class mostly] would be extremely surprised to find out that they aren't black!)

Black Africa is a commonly used term meant to distinguish the Negro-populated part of the continent from that with the prevailing Arab population (roughly speaking - below the Sahara region, including Chad, the Sudan). How else do you call that region? I don't imply a negative meaning here. SIMPLY.

"rant... simply rant... simply rant... simpleminded rant"

Go and find out what Nubian means/is! Then you can go home and cuddle up to your copy of "Mein Kampf."

Don't have me go to the Babylon Zoo.

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

NOOLigan wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

MIMX wrote: (PS: To the wee white right-wing posters above; If you think I'm going to waste breath/words in debating your ludicrous argument that anyone other than a white western male is some sort of semi-human childlike sub-species, and western British and/or American capitalism is the pinnacle of human achievement then you are sadly mistaken. Your own words are more than enough to condemn you, and expose you to the ridicule you so richly deserve.)

For somebody who thinks that "African culture" (not forgetting that you have completely mischaracterized what Ian said) consists of ancient North African civilizations, you sure have a lot to say about those straw men you keep setting up.

FFS you finally find someone here who is as big an intellectual wanker as yourself and you proceed to fight with him.

Do treat us to another lecture on "the Nazis"...Unless your lips are still too puffy from your latest collagen treatment.

Actually, that would be quite entertaining.

Dear me. Is that your best reply? At least stay relevant to the current discussion old man.

Chris Nash wrote: Israel gained 'recognition' as a State/Country in 1948 (I think) therefore, is it hypocritical of the Israelis to try to deny the Palestinians their own homeland?

After all, the Jews have been bitching about it for the last 2000 years or so.

Just wondered, as this seems to be the thread for anything contentious at the moment...

With the victor comes the spoils..

that outta help get someone riled up...

It is pretty amazing that Pakistan had a woman leader of gov't in the first place. USA didn't like her?

Gazman wrote: Yer a bad man Chris...

Nope, that's me. 11/09/2001 While actually physically shitting it, convinced The End Was Nigh and that I was watching the opening credits thereof. While sadly thinking how tragic it was that our race would end after achieving such a small part of it's potential, and before anything of any substance had gone beyond this island Earth, this single, egg stuffed basket.

While all of that was going on, and I was surfing the edges of a nervous breakdown, I thought, "New York New York, so good they bombed it twice".

EDIT: I wonder if the newfound peace in NI will make us lose our horrific sense of humour, as it does seem to go hand in hand with a nasty way of life. I bet Maya's a sick sod too, Belgrade being sort of Belfast^2 and all.

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: For somebody who thinks that "African culture" (not forgetting that you have completely mischaracterized what Ian said) consists of ancient North African civilizations, you sure have a lot to say about those straw men you keep setting up.

For somebody who is completely hungover, I'm going to give you one wee tip Comrade ( ) NEVER presume you have the slightest degree of understanding of the limits of my knowledge. The two examples of African culture (both of which are still extant!) I gave where merely those that sprung to mind as having culture/s that not even those with a limited understanding of the word, or those that think "culture" is a McDonald's and a Hollywood movie could deny. I thought it rather pointless to discuss the Zulu, Ashanti, or Bushmen of the Kalahari with people who think the U.K & U.S.A are the pinnacle of culture and have effective democratic political systems. Before you go and play with the straw man that your obviously so fond of: you should try using your own language/metaphors mate. I recommend Orwell's "Politics and The English Language." It may well help you avoid using meaningless phrases and words: again.

Chris Nash wrote:

Gazman wrote: Yer a bad man Chris...

Mal made me do it

Aye blame me. You sick sick man!

It was a better joke than the thing that sprung to my sick mind. When everyone was posting R.I.P, for a moment I considered posting: "Rest In Pieces".

:o

MIMX wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: For somebody who thinks that "African culture" (not forgetting that you have completely mischaracterized what Ian said) consists of ancient North African civilizations, you sure have a lot to say about those straw men you keep setting up.

For somebody who is completely hungover, I'm going to give you one wee tip Comrade ( ) NEVER presume you have the slightest degree of understanding of the limits of my knowledge.

No presumptions made. You were the one who chose to give as examples of African culture two ancient North African civilizations. I merely pointed out the cultural limitations of your rather bizarre example.

MIMX The two examples of African culture (both of which are still extant!)

Er, not. Carthage was utterly destroyed during the Punic wars (and I know you're aware of this.). There's NO relation between the current city and the ancient civilization, which, as you know, was razed to the ground.

And surely you're aware that while the Nile valley is still home to the Egyptian people, the ancient Egyptian civilization you referenced is no longer "extant."

MIMX wrote: I gave where merely those that sprung to mind as having culture/s that not even those with a limited understanding of the word, or those that think "culture" is a McDonald's and a Hollywood movie could deny.

Speaking of presumptions, there was this Scot walked into a forum...

MIMX wrote: I thought it rather pointless to discuss the Zulu, Ashanti, or Bushmen of the Kalahari with people who think the U.K & U.S.A are the pinnacle of culture and have effective democratic political systems.

Stop me if think you've heard this one before: Speaking of presumptions, there was this Scot walked into a forum...

MIMX wrote: Before you go and play with the straw man that your obviously so fond of:

Playing the schoolboy? "I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!"

You've been using straw men since you first mischaracterized Ian's argument. To wit: Ian said these "countries" had never had "political or civic culture." You changed that to "Africans never had culture." That is a classic straw man, which even amongst a people as ignorant and unenlightened as my own, is a logical fallacy.

And your only response to that is to claim that I'm playing with straw men?

MIMX wrote: the Zulu

I saw a movie about them once. Right after gorging at McDonald's, of course.

Ah grasshopper just go and meditate under your tree on the importance of winning some debate with someone you don't know and prolly will never meet.

Speaking of retards, no matter how many times I slap RonD'OH around, he always comes around looking for a rematch.

Jeffari-al-Texani wrote:

NOOLigan wrote: Ah grasshopper just go and meditate under your tree on the importance of winning some debate with someone you don't know and prolly will never meet.

Ron...is it wrong to post this?

http://aycu39.webshots.com/image/36998/2005549847456382290_rs.jpg" class="max-w-full" alt="" loading="lazy" />

Nah go ahead.

Q.E.D.

Fuck. Managed to forget about this shit all day. You dancer! "Q.E.D?"

PFD!**

The Only Way To Be.

Ora Pro Nobis