Olympic Torch

Biggest Thing on Two Wheels wrote:

bushwick bill wrote: I guess you can compare this to when the olympics were in nazi germany. Good thing not everybody kept quiet.

Exactly

Bullshit. Boycotting the games is a choice and decision of the athletes and the Country.... attacking the torch bearer was an act of individual idiocy. Two seperate issues there

Jiphy wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Demonstrating the Chinese Embassy, or not purchasing Chinese goods, etc. is a more direct and proper demonstration against China.

Not purchasing Chinese goods means : . Go back to the age of transistors. . Walking barefoot if you have not enough money to buy "luxury" shoes. . Walking barefoot and naked if you have not enough money to... . Surely avoid to buy plenty of products made in everywhere but China because most of the components in those must be done in China...

In my opinion, this is the main reason all the countries which did not attend Moscow 80 or Los Angeles 84 will be in Peking this year. Like someone said in another thread "it is just business at the end".

and it will be our downfall surely

Can't help but think that you're taking this a little bit too seriously. It wasn't a violent act. Probably an impulsive gesture anyway. A firm kick up the arse for a regime that thinks it can command respect and boss people around on foreign soil like they can at home. Nobody got hurt.

The Olympic flame is portrayed as this powerful symbol of unity and fairness and it's being paraded around by one of the most oppressive regimes in the world today.

For once, and it's rare that I take the side of this sort of protesters, I am in favour of their actions.

The similarity between Germany and this games is that the athletes and other participants have a moral decision to make over whether they attend (I can't see many people boycotting) and whether they will make some sort of statement. It will be interesting to see how the Chinese react to any criticism they receive.

The torch is coming to Canberra. Should I take that day off work? I'd have to disguise myself as well I work for the government.

Secretary of State for Sports (Bernard Laporte, former national rugby manager) said : "You can assert when you can behave". That is what he said about today's event. He said the ceremony was ok and an example at le Trocadéro (a part of Paris for the ones who do not know) where people behaved gently like a fake crowd.

All is said.

Bravo to everybody who disrupted the torch run and gave China the black eye it so richly deserves.

Bonzette wrote:

Minx wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: (and yes it was an attack, they put their hands on her in a forceful manner).

It is not a far cry to bombing and piloting into structures...

I'm just nipping out to find a plane and some bombs there was a doorman who got uppity with me at the pub last week

What a splendid, well thought out argument.

cheeeky..

Wahey... there's a demo going on, on the Golden Gate Bridge right now. Now don't fall off, screaming for Tibet.

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Bravo to everybody who disrupted the torch run and gave China the black eye it so richly deserves.

FUCKING HELL people! Are you just all THICK!!??

The Olympic torch doesn't stand for China... it stands for the world coming together, regardless of disputes and differences.

Yeah, everyone on here is 'love peace, no war' but when an actual symbol of world unity comes along, let's all piss on it.... Fucking give me a fucking break.

EdelBrock wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Bravo to everybody who disrupted the torch run and gave China the black eye it so richly deserves.

FUCKING HELL people! Are you just all THICK!!??

The Olympic torch doesn't stand for China... it stands for the world coming together, regardless of disputes and differences.

Yeah, everyone on here is 'love peace, no war' but when an actual symbol of world unity comes along, let's all piss on it.... Fucking give me a fucking break.

Do you really believe that China wants the Olympics to symbolize the world coming together?

As opposed, say, to enhancing their international image as a counterbalance to their negative international image-- for example, their negative international image due to their repressive measures in Tibet?

Maybe that's why Hitler wanted the Olympics in 1936, eh-- to symbolize the world coming together?

Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

EdelBrock wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Bravo to everybody who disrupted the torch run and gave China the black eye it so richly deserves.

FUCKING HELL people! Are you just all THICK!!??

The Olympic torch doesn't stand for China... it stands for the world coming together, regardless of disputes and differences.

Yeah, everyone on here is 'love peace, no war' but when an actual symbol of world unity comes along, let's all piss on it.... Fucking give me a fucking break.

Do you really believe that China wants the Olympics to symbolize the world coming together?

As opposed, say, to enhancing their international image as a counterbalance to their negative international image-- for example, their negative international image due to their repressive measures in Tibet?

Maybe that's why Hitler wanted the Olympics in 1936, eh-- to symbolize the world coming together?

this type of rational for behavior pisses me off to no end. The Olympic torch has symbolism, like I stated before. But like any symbolism, it is created by a whisper; by a thought that is delicate and needs protection and upkeep. Many will try to deface the symbol for personal gain, but it must be preserved as best as possible.

I will repeat, China is not the symbol of the torch. Simply because China is trying to use the Olympics for personal gain, does NOT give rights to everyone and thier barber to deface a symbol of unity. Such is hypocricy. The individuals that defaced the torch, did so for thier own personal political agenda; not so different from what China is trying to do to the Games....

Rationalizing your personal views on the matter doesn't make it 'right'. Don't you think China has rationalized thier views on what they are doing?

EdelBrock wrote:

Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Bravo to everybody who disrupted the torch run and gave China the black eye it so richly deserves.

FUCKING HELL people! Are you just all THICK!!??

The Olympic torch doesn't stand for China... it stands for the world coming together, regardless of disputes and differences.

Yeah, everyone on here is 'love peace, no war' but when an actual symbol of world unity comes along, let's all piss on it.... Fucking give me a fucking break.

Hang on - are we all now 'love and peace, no war' or are we still backing terrorism?

Not one person has said anything bad against the Olympics or the 'torch' it's about the fact that China has the Olympics, and because of that China are currently representing the olympic games. That means China are representing themselves and considering what this means - an endorsement of horrific human rigts abuse in their own country and Tibet, this is gonna mean this is the perfect worldwide stage in which to protest.

Watched the events in Paris last night and as far as I can see there is a genuine pain and suffering on the faces of most of those protesting against China. Completely different to the faces of say, the 7/7 bombers who were pictured laughing and joking on their stroll down from leeds to London to kill loads of innocent people for their 'cause' It's a disgrace that you even compare terrorism to protest. Yes, the protests are quite heavy - but it's clear to harm or kill others is not the objective here. Not at all. I see desperation to get the world to sit up and take notice, and if pissing people like you off about it gets people to take notice then hoo-fuking-ray!

You're being far too precious about things. There is a fundemental difference between people protesting in desperation, and from what I can see from TV is a real suffering and pain (not an intention to inflict that suffering on others), about the treatment of humans under China rule and that of a fanatical person wanting to kill as many humans as possible to get noticed.

The reason this is taking place now and in the way it is, is because it's all related and linked to the the Olympics, Torch, what the Olympics is meant to symbolise, China and Tibet...It's not about ruining the Olympics or not seeing the Olympics as an amazing sporting event in any way at all - but how can it represent unity and greatness if China host this? It can't. Thst's tha basis of the protest. Same as Germany etc, etc...

And be careful who you call thick in the future.

Edel. Counties tend to use the Olympics to showcase their country to say look at us and see how far we've come; think Japan and Korea. In the case of China well sorry they haven't come that far.

I'm not going to restate the arguments. Look at the post above mine.

Sorry Edel.

Actually at the moment I really don't have a clue where you're coming from. You have told us to stop buying China's products to stop their economic success but when it comes to their, note the spelling of their, prestige, it seems that's a different matter

NOOLigan wrote: Counties tend to use the Olympics to showcase their country to say look at us and see how far we've come; think Japan and Korea. In the case of China well sorry they haven't come that far.

Wait until you see London.

Bonzette wrote:

Hang on - are we all now 'love and peace, no war' or are we still backing terrorism?

And be careful who you call thick in the future.

You can put my torch out any time, Bonz

You can spoil my parade

You can attack my Blue Peter presenter

You can use excessive force to opress my minority

You can run me over with your tank any time

Fucking hypocrites, all.

Pain and suffering? What the hell did those people on the streets of Paris know of the Tibetian pain and suffering? Yeah, real pain and suffering. Bollucks!

Attack a innocent torch bearer. Attack a symbol of world unity. But what the hell would you know of the precious symbolisms of this world? You state how China is using the Olympics to show how far they have come politically, and you are appaled.... yet some idiots deface in a similar manner the torch and there is praise?

the 7/7 event probably had many Islamics thinking "Yeah, its about time those bastards got what they deserved!".... same line of thinking.

Killing people and killing a symbol isn't much different. They are both used for the same thing. Symbols have lasting impact. They may seem meaningless off-hand, but they can create so much in our world.

I have no issue with anyone protesting the Olympics because it is held in China. I got the fucking point without some retard attacking the torch bearer. The whole world IS aware of Tibet withOUT this happening.

You praise the wrong people.

The issue is with the hijacking of the Olympic torch as a symbol to represent issues other than international unity.

But you rant on, if it makes you feel better about whatever it is you want to feel better about.

They can stick their torch up their arses for me. It's not a symbol I recognise as standing for anything worthwhile.

Rhetoric about the Olympics bringing nations together and promoting peace and understanding have no meaning at all unless they are backed up by real actions. All I see is the IOCs shadowy selection process, lots of money wasted on bids and hopeless building projects and the misuse of the imagery and ethos of the games to polish up a very tarnished reputation.

And all this hypocrisy before the games even begins.

Once they begin, the other true meaning of the modern games will manifest itself. The endless round of drug-testing, cheating rumours and bitterness that pervades the top level of all sports will dominate the news from the games. The countries that win the most medals will be the ones that can afford the best training programmes (including the best dope test evasion strategy) and bear little relation to individual effort. The Olympic Games is a corporate machine and it’s as depraved and corrupt as any major business could hope to be. I’d rather watch the school sports day at Bonz’s lad’s school.

Particularly the mother’s race

EdelBrock wrote: Fucking hypocrites, all.

Pain and suffering? What the hell did those people on the streets of Paris know of the Tibetian pain and suffering? Yeah, real pain and suffering. Bollucks!

Attack a innocent torch bearer. Attack a symbol of world unity. But what the hell would you know of the precious symbolisms of this world? You state how China is using the Olympics to show how far they have come politically, and you are appaled.... yet some idiots deface in a similar manner the torch and there is praise?

the 7/7 event probably had many Islamics thinking "Yeah, its about time those bastards got what they deserved!".... same line of thinking.

Killing people and killing a symbol isn't much different. They are both used for the same thing. Symbols have lasting impact. They may seem meaningless off-hand, but they can create so much in our world.

I have no issue with anyone protesting the Olympics because it is held in China. I got the fucking point without some retard attacking the torch bearer. The whole world IS aware of Tibet withOUT this happening.

You praise the wrong people.

Oh. My. Fucking. Days.

How does grabbing the torch in anyway compare to the suffering in China and Tibet? They're not killing a symobol are they? They're putting a flame out that represents 'unity' and 'peace' because with the games being held in China - that symbol has already been 'killed' or would you prefer the word 'murdered'? Coz putting a flame out with an extinguisher, is exactly the same thing as having an intent purpose to kill thousand, hundresds etc...

So just to clairfy........you're saying that china has not inflicted any kind of pain and suffering in China or Tibet? Because that's excatly what you have said reads - do you seriously think the lives of those in 'Paris' or 'London' have been traumatised as a result of the protests? have they fuck - they've all gone home and back ot their lives where they can do the most simple of things in every day life.

I doubt the majority of protestors have turned round and thought of any people taking part in the torch fiasco 'they got what they desreved' - they had one aim, and one aim only - to get the flipping torch and put a flame out.

And don't think you can step up to any one on this thread and accuse them of having no idea of what 'symbolisms' are. We all know, which is why we are discussing that very purpose on the thread.

We all support the idea of the Olympics, we all know how important it could be, and the flame. But if you're gonna tell me that a flame is more important than human beings (how ironic you should harp on about The torch being about 'creating so much in the world') - i'm gonna tell you to fucking do one!

April 24 it is our turn. They have already shortened the route by several kilometers. There's still no word on the official route, well it would have to go past Parliament House wouldn't it. Back in 2000 this was all very different. The route was advised months in advance and it passed only a few streets from my house, so we all went to have a look.

This time I wouldn't just go for a look. Now where can you get a small easily concealable water cannon?

Edel would know where.

I don’t ‘support’ the Games.

I would support them if they really where what they purport to be: amateur competition between the world’s greatest athletes. I’d even feel better about them if they purported to be what they are: big money tussle between sponsors, developers and, in some disciplines, professional athletes.

I feel sorry for the honest athletes and trainers who really do devote their lives to their sport and receive none of the huge revenue that their efforts will generate. China will invest eye-watering amounts of money into the Games and none of that money will go to the common man.

Oh roll on 2012

Like some comedian over here said recently: Why the trouble? The whole world came to Germany 1936 without making such revolts.

But serious. I'm not mad at athletes that refuse to go there. And it is the doping-games anyway. Look at the east-european and chinese 'female' athletes,then you know what taking hormones can do.

Bonzette wrote: Watched the events in Paris last night and as far as I can see there is a genuine pain and suffering on the faces of most of those protesting against China.

I also did. What surprised me is that there are many Tibetans in France. Plenty of Chinese people, I know. I remember shocking my neighbors in Paris claiming something like : "Who are these Chinese people coming to eat bread in the mouth of our Arabs?" Humour. In two years, the Chinese area of my part of Paris (not Paris XIII - Parisian Chinatown, but Paris XX) extended by two tube stations (North/East/West/South-ward). When I arrived there, it was exotic to eat Chinese food, five years later, it was imposible to find a kebab...

Back to the events. There is a huge community of Chinese people in Paris. They could demonstrate against the torch - well I assume they are against the regime in China if they are in France, but they did not. Lots of Tibetans. Where did they come from? Logically, a Tibetan immigrant should be poorer than a Chinese one... Seas of Tibetan flags. Question 1 : where can you buy a Tibetan flag in Paris ? Question 2 : how the shops which sell flags (the French are not fond of flags - all our sportsmen complain about this during competitions) could supply so many Tibetan flags (a non-independant country by the way) in a so short time term? Who is the supplier?

And I then wonder... Tibet has been invaded by Chinese troops in 1950. I made the count for you, it makes 58 years. USA has diplomatic links with China since 1972. China took the place of Taiwan at the Security Council of the UN in 1971. Everybody opened and closed their eyes at Tien An Men Square in 1989. What since then? Happy to see that the last communist giant convert to capitalism - what a market!!! So, why all this sudden passion about Tibet? Do we know how the Tibetans lived before Chinese invasion? Are the riots in Tibet driven by the Dalai-lama or are these people against both China and Dalai-lama (assuming they do not want to go back to the pre-1950 Tibet?) Are the Western people trying to have a stance, by opportunity? To who would benefit major changes in Tibet and/or China?

Blimey, I have plenty of time to kill...

Burt Reynolds wrote: Wait until you see London.

The mayor of Paris is depressed since he lost the competition. But the Parisians did not want to have the games because they feared un impôt Jeux Olympiques.

As for London in 2012. I wonder if I will buy myself an Ulster flag or a free Gibraltar one...

Bonzette wrote: How does grabbing the torch in anyway compare to the suffering in China and Tibet? They're not killing a symobol are they? They're putting a flame out that represents 'unity' and 'peace' because with the games being held in China - that symbol has already been 'killed' or would you prefer the word 'murdered'? Coz putting a flame out with an extinguisher, is exactly the same thing as having an intent purpose to kill thousand, hundresds etc...

So just to clairfy........you're saying that china has not inflicted any kind of pain and suffering in China or Tibet? Because that's excatly what you have said reads - do you seriously think the lives of those in 'Paris' or 'London' have been traumatised as a result of the protests? have they fuck - they've all gone home and back ot their lives where they can do the most simple of things in every day life.

I doubt the majority of protestors have turned round and thought of any people taking part in the torch fiasco 'they got what they desreved' - they had one aim, and one aim only - to get the flipping torch and put a flame out.

And don't think you can step up to any one on this thread and accuse them of having no idea of what 'symbolisms' are. We all know, which is why we are discussing that very purpose on the thread.

We all support the idea of the Olympics, we all know how important it could be, and the flame. But if you're gonna tell me that a flame is more important than human beings (how ironic you should harp on about The torch being about 'creating so much in the world') - i'm gonna tell you to fucking do one!

First off, yesterday's posts might have been a little pointed. I was having a bad day and had a bit of the drink. So my insults to everyone... well I apologize.

I still feel the same (minus the insults) though and you have gravely misunderstood the whole concept I am trying to say.

First, I never claimed China hasn't suppressed Tibet. Not really sure where you got that from. I personally don't like the actions of China; politically, economically or towards human rights. We pander too much to them. It's not the reasons behind putting out the torch I'm against. Protesting is fine, but we, as sophisticated countries, need to step up and serve as an example. Rioting around a torch bearer (who does not stand behind China) isn't the proper place.

My main disappointment is that I expected more from those on this board. I regard most here to be well-educated and a step above the norm. The initial novelty of putting out the torch is gratifying, however on the bigger picture, it sets a bad precident. The Olympics have been protested in almost every year it is played. There is always a reason for world dissent. Before the protests were organized by countries and athletes, but done with the greater picture in mind. The torch has now been attacked by individuals, with no restraint. Maybe the cause was some-what proper, but what about the next demonstration? What makes this demonstration proper and another not? We now have no right to complain when some radical group decides to push thier thoughts forward.

By the way, I never said that symbols are more important than human life. At the same time, however, symbols are very important to create a harmonious society and should not be taken for granted or minimized.

While I agree that the Olympics have corruption, drug use, and many other things to taint the reason for its existence... well that is what happens to anything that is large and creates alot of money. That can not be stopped. We need to rise above this issue, not stop the Games simply because its not perfect. China is far from where it should be, but excluding it is far more dangerous than including it. Keep your enemies closer than your friends. Plus, China has moved forward (maybe not as fast as we would like) to our lifestyles... alienating is not the answer.

I really do think that's a great idea. Move them to a central location and all member states contribute towards the generation of the best sporting facilities, hotels etc. This would trully allow the Olympics to be about the Games rather than being an expensive and controversial vanity exercise for each host nation.

Greece might be a bit warm though. It get's too hot for running around there.

Biggest Thing on Two Wheels wrote: Oh roll on 2012

That's why I'm planning on going to Vegas (with a couple of mates) for the whole of the games and missing it all... :)