Nutter on the loose in USA

Originally posted by Spotnick Not that is just sick...Another victim.I'm getting surprised the person who sold the killer the weapon and bullets didn't call in to cash the prize yet.. which let me assume either he's stupid and is willing to let a person continue to kill innocent people, or this is truly an act of terrorism.. if there is really 2 people like they have said, then even if people don't want to admit it, it's smelling funny.With all the recent attacks this week, on the French ship, the soldiers in Kuwait and that HORRIBLE explosion in Bali, something is happening, it might not have the same impact than the WTC incident (even the terrorists weren't probably expecting it to collapse), but it's seriously doing its job...Just this week my girlfriend and I were checking a brochure of Bali for our honeymoon, let's just say we changed our minds, most attacks are aimed at tourists, that sure don't help much.. and now, random victim chosing...Let's just say something is going on, and I just hope this will be over soon, and not to start any flaming war here, but attacking Iraq is not going to solve anything...Any, and I must say, ALL international TV stations are showing there is nothing there, and the interest is mostly for the black oil, and not terrorism, so putting all this part of the world angry is not going to solve any problem...!But I'm no expert, I'm just a simple man!

i would say go to bali. of course, it's up to you. but don't let this one incident frighten you off. that's what the terrorists want! i lived in israel during the intifada and everyone keeps saying to me, 'ooh, wasn't that dangerous.' well, no, actually. it'a a hell of a lot safer than living in america, as a matter of fact, if you look at violent crime statistics! i just kept my eyes peeled and didn't walk around with a sign saying 'i hate jews/palestinians' (depending on where i was). this is an isolated incident (i hope)...people are still coming to NYC, as well they should! so i'd say still keep bali in mind. remember: terrorists depend on public fear to win, not a body count.

and i totally agree with you about iraq. an invasion would be about safeguarding american oil interests, and nothing else.

The Constitution says every American has the right to bear arms, which I agree with. However, when access to weapons is so lax that criminals pack more heat than police officers, something's wrong with the system.

Also Nic, you said something which a lot of people are not willing to: Going to war against Iraq solves nothing. I would posit further that going to war actually HURTS our position in the Middle East. if we come off like a big bully taking on anyone we don't like, we're sure gonna lose whatever friends we have left over there. I said before that Sharon and Arafat were the wrong people to be in charge of the Israeli/Palistinian sides, and I think both would use the invasion of Iraq as a pretext for their own bloddy struggle. Whenever we can finally undo the lies that fundamentalists in BOTH Christianity/Judaism and Islam perpetuate, and can show the positive benefits of democracy in action, the situation might improve. But the war in Iraq would defeat all our noble efforts in the region.

Of course, Saddam is an evil man, and if he has these weapons of mass destruction, he should be taken out. However, Bush and the rest of them have been so vague as to suggest that, if you ask any more about whether Iraq has the potential for weapons or not, you're somehow "unpatriotic". This climate of intolerance has to stop before we lose sight of what made us Americans in the first place....

actually, the constitution says that americans have the right to bear arms under a WELL-REGULATED MILITIA. different meaning, entirely. the gun lobbyists take it out of context, i'm afraid. unfortunately, because of our deeply-ingrained gun culture, nobody has challenged this notion successfully.

i don't think the founding fathers ever intended for every american to have the right to possess semi-automatic weapons. remember, the constitution was drafted when the united states was still at a point when militias were used to fight small wars, as they were used in the revolution.

but i agree with you, taboo, whether you believe in the right to bear arms or not, something is really wrong with the system. and well said about war in iraq. i've studied middle eastern politics for seven years now, and when i present this position to people, they look at me as though i'm a member of al-qaeda or something. nobody seems to get it!

Originally posted by Agentwood actually, the constitution says that americans have the right to bear arms under a WELL-REGULATED MILITIA. different meaning, entirely. the gun lobbyists take it out of context, i'm afraid. unfortunately, because of our deeply-ingrained gun culture, nobody has challenged this notion successfully.

Yeah, you're right. My bad (bet a Conservative wouldn't have admitted that...only kidding! :D)

Well, to be fair, the fact that British soldiers were constantly taking American guns may have influenced that part, so it makes sense in the context of the times. I have no problem with law-abiding citizens owning guns, even if they don't belong to a militia. The American army starting out was a bunch of militiamen in each state holding off the Brits, so the concept of a "standing army" was foreign to them. It was only in the early 1800's that we really accepted the notion that armies, not militias, would protect us.

T7,

What the Second Amendment to the Constitution actually says is this:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibit\_hall/charters\_of\_freedom/bill\_of\_rights/amendments\_1-10.html

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Now, as written, I freely admit there is room for interpretation from both sides of the "gun" argument.

However, to put a finer point on it, my STATE Constitution says this:

Texas Constitution Article I, Section 23

Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.

Now, before all the Texas bashing starts (remember, that would be committing "statism" and therfore a hate crime) , why doesn't everyone look up what their own local governing document has to say.

Michael

just remember that until roughly 150 years ago, a black person was, constitutionally, considered 3/4 of a human being. bad laws are bad laws, and as early as 1803 chief justice john marshall recognized that the constitution needed to be changed as society changed. i think it's time that we took this into consideration and rethought amendment two!

Originally posted by Agentwood just remember that until roughly 150 years ago, a black person was, constitutionally, considered 3/4 of a human being. bad laws are bad laws, and as early as 1803 chief justice john marshall recognized that the constitution needed to be changed as society changed. i think it's time that we took this into consideration and rethought amendment two!

I think what you meant to say was that a slave, not a black person living in a free state, was counted as 3/5 of a person for purposes of deciding how many seats a slave state would have in the House of Representatives.

https://courseware.vt.edu/users/wachau/bad.html

As for "rethinking" the Second Amendment, I feel that you may have some trouble getting the populations of 38 out of 50 states to make drastic changes.

Michael

yes, i meant 3/5, not 3/4. and to me the black/slave, free state/slave state difference was really just semantics!

personally, i don't think civilians should have the 'right' to own guns. if we cannot be responsible with one of our constitutional 'rights' than this 'right' should be taken away. however, as this will never happen, america will continue to have one of the highest gun murder rates of any industrialized country in the world. if you own a gun, the chances are higher that you will be shot yourself. most shootings are not done in self-defense, but are accidents, suicides, or crimes of passion against a known party.

i do a lot of traveling, and i've lived in several countries, and nearly everone i meet is disgusted with the liberal gun laws in america. in fact, people bring it up all the time. in egypt, i met a man who's daughter wanted to attend college in the states. he didn't want her to go, because he was afraid she would be murdered 'because there are too many guns over there.' in britain, if one person is shot per day it makes the national news because it's so rare. here, it hardly makes the local news because it's so common.

i know americans will probably never change their strong views on gun ownership and that i'm in the minority. oh, well, i guess thousands will continue to die each year and there's nothing i can do about it. all i know is that i will never, ever own a gun.

...although they look cool in movies. :D

Originally posted by Agentwood yes, i meant 3/5, not 3/4. and to me the black/slave, free state/slave state difference was really just semantics!personally, i don't think civilians should have the 'right' to own guns. if we cannot be responsible with one of our constitutional 'rights' than this 'right' should be taken away. however, as this will never happen, america will continue to have one of the highest gun murder rates of any industrialized country in the world. if you own a gun, the chances are higher that you will be shot yourself. most shootings are not done in self-defense, but are accidents, suicides, or crimes of passion against a known party. i do a lot of traveling, and i've lived in several countries, and nearly everone i meet is disgusted with the liberal gun laws in america. in fact, people bring it up all the time. in egypt, i met a man who's daughter wanted to attend college in the states. he didn't want her to go, because he was afraid she would be murdered 'because there are too many guns over there.' in britain, if one person is shot per day it makes the national news because it's so rare. here, it hardly makes the local news because it's so common.i know americans will probably never change their strong views on gun ownership and that i'm in the minority. oh, well, i guess thousands will continue to die each year and there's nothing i can do about it. all i know is that i will never, ever own a gun....although they look cool in movies. :D

Semantics!?!?! Somehow, I don't a black family living in a free state at the time would agree with you.

That would be like comparing an actress living in Florida and a White Slave "living" in a brothel in Thailand. I mean, they're both just "acting" to make a "living", right?

I'm quite sure that you did meet folks that were disgusted with many of the freedoms that we in this country hold dear. It's funny how those same people don't mind accepting our economic aid or our men and material when a problem arises that they can't or won't handle. A very sharp, very ironic double edged sword, don't you think?

As far as people being "affraid" to come to this country, let's examine a few statistics:

http://www.gcir.org/about\_immigration/usmap.htm

In 1997, the state of Texas accepted 57,897 immigrants. From 1990-97, 777,048 immigrants were accepted. In 1996, it was estimated that there were 700,000 undocumented immigrants in the state.

In the state of Florida, 82,318 immigrants were accepted in 1997. From 1990-97 617,116 immigrants were accepted into the state. In 1996, it was estimated that 350,000 undocumented immigrants were in the state.

These statistics say nothing about the people trying to leave places like Cuba on a home-built raft or China in a sealed shipping container. People like these are literally "dying" to get here.

Concerning gun deaths in the UK, I think it would be useful to look at population differences:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html

UK: 59,778,002

US: 280,562,4889

And most importantly, the British government has effectively disarmed it's population.

Michael

"Handguns. I'm getting a warm sticky feeling just saying the fucking word." (Bill Hicks)

"Fuck The Brady Bill." (Manic Street Preachers)

> > > > Semantics!?!?! Somehow, I don't a black family living in a free state at the time would agree with you.> > That would be like comparing an actress living in Florida and a White Slave "living" in a brothel in Thailand. I mean, they're both just "acting" to make a "living", right?> > I'm quite sure that you did meet folks that were disgusted with many of the freedoms that we in this country hold dear. It's funny how those same people don't mind accepting our economic aid or our men and material when a problem arises that they can't or won't handle. A very sharp, very ironic double edged sword, don't you think?> > As far as people being "affraid" to come to this country, let's examine a few statistics:> > http://www.gcir.org/about\_immigration/usmap.htm> > In 1997, the state of Texas accepted 57,897 immigrants. From 1990-97, 777,048 immigrants were accepted. In 1996, it was estimated that there were 700,000 undocumented immigrants in the state.> > In the state of Florida, 82,318 immigrants were accepted in 1997. From 1990-97 617,116 immigrants were accepted into the state. In 1996, it was estimated that 350,000 undocumented immigrants were in the state.> > These statistics say nothing about the people trying to leave places like Cuba on a home-built raft or China in a sealed shipping container. People like these are literally "dying" to get here.> > > Concerning gun deaths in the UK, I think it would be useful to look at population differences:> > http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html> > UK: 59,778,002> > US: 280,562,4889> > And most importantly, the British government has effectively disarmed it's population.> > > Michael> > > >

yes, i still believe it is just semantics. to me, any law that declares that ANY part of ANY segment of a particular race to be second class is a slap in the face to the entire race. i believe that frederick douglass (a free black man) would have agreed with me.

and as for guns: you talk about population differences. ok then, let's do some math. in 1987, according to the home office, there were 181 gun-related deaths in england and wales in 1997. the US population is, as you say above, 4 1/2 times that of the UK. therefore, if the US and the UK had the same rate of gun deaths, the US should have had roughly 814 gun-related deaths during that year. the actual number was 30,708 (and that was a marked decrease from the year before)! this is roughly 38 TIMES the rate of that in england and wales! so population has nothing to do with it whatsoever! thank god the british government have disarmed its population!

and you speak of immigration to the US....but you don't mention illegal immigration in other countries. in fact, many people risk their lives to immigrate to britain, france, germany and other countries, not just the united states. are you familiar with the troubles with the eurotunnel/sangatte refugee holding camp in france? each night, numerous eastern europeans and north africans attempt to cross the channel tunnel from the continent to britain via freight train from the sangatte camp. in some situations it's even worse. several years ago, a lorry was opened at dover and the bodies of more than a dozen dead chinese refugees were found: they had suffocated. they had been brought BY LAND ALL THE WAY FROM CHINA to britain, and had paid to do it! in israel, many non-jewish russians fake right-of-return papers in order to move to israel to receive help from the jewish agency. in france, many algerians and moroccans move to france to start a new life. so, you see, the united states is not the only country that has refugees and illegal immigrants entering its borders on a regular basis. in other words, people aren't 'dying' to get IN to the united states, they're dying to get OUT of their own country! also, you do not mention the number of expatriates LEAVING the united states each year. my cousin, for one, moved from the united states TO mexico! and the cuban issue--well, no wonder they have a failing economy! how can a country survive when it's closest neighbour has placed a devastating economic embargo on it for 42 years? without ANY political effect? castro isn't moving, and the rest of the world scoffs at our continuing stubbornness.

america isn't the land of milk and honey...we just delude ourselves into thinking we are.

no one is going to change michaels mind and michael will not change any minds either so these poltical debates are worthless here. trust me. there are so many guns in america at this point it would be impossible to disarm the public. remember the smiths song "I Want The One I Can't Have"?

Perhaps a good song to end this thread with would be "Why Can't We Be Friends?" by War :D

true. i'm just a stubborn ass woman. i'm also a political scientist. bad combo for getting into a debate! :D

Originally posted by Michael McDermott > Originally posted by Taboo # 7> Well, with this nutjob on the loose, has anyone seen Dick Cheney around lately? He always seems to be "out"....> > As for nutjobs, that's the price we pay for what few liberties we have left. I'd like to thank Chuck Heston and the NRA for making this happen. At any rate, I hope the fucker's caught.

T7,

Blaming Charlton Heston and the NRA for these horrible murders is like blaming Gloria Stienem and N.O.W. for the one million (+) unborn babies that are murdered each year in this country.

A little extreme, don't you think?

While we may be diametrically opposed to the NRA's (you) and NOW's (me) positions, it really does boil down to personal "choice" (so to speak) and responsibility, doesn't it?

Michael

Michael,

Yet again my blood boils at your flippant comments! How dare you brand any woman a murderer just because she asserts her right to choose to terminate a pregnancy. Are you God Himself per chance? It seems that in your own mind you are! To compound matters even further you refer to 'personal choice' with regard to the gun situation in your crazy country and then in another reply use the word liberitarian. Are personal choice and liberty only entitlements of individuals who stand in your particular corner on any given issue?

As for the utterly stupid gun laws in America, it comes down to one thing for me. Is one mans right to own a gun worth the life of another man? What I mean is, to stop the bad 'uns you also have to deny the good 'uns the right to own firearms. Is that not worth doing even if it only saved one life. After all, the men and women who have been murdered by this latest lunatic have left behind husbands, wives, children, brothers, sisters, etc, etc. Is all that heartache worth the right to fire a gun?? Absolutely not!!

Originally posted by > Originally posted by Michael McDermott> > > > Originally posted by Taboo # 7> > Well, with this nutjob on the loose, has anyone seen Dick Cheney around lately? He always seems to be "out"....> > > > As for nutjobs, that's the price we pay for what few liberties we have left. I'd like to thank Chuck Heston and the NRA for making this happen. At any rate, I hope the fucker's caught.>

T7,

Blaming Charlton Heston and the NRA for these horrible murders is like blaming Gloria Stienem and N.O.W. for the one million (+) unborn babies that are murdered each year in this country.

A little extreme, don't you think?

While we may be diametrically opposed to the NRA's (you) and NOW's (me) positions, it really does boil down to personal "choice" (so to speak) and responsibility, doesn't it?

Michael

Michael,

Yet again my blood boils at your flippant comments! How dare you brand any woman a murderer just because she asserts her right to choose to terminate a pregnancy. Are you God Himself per chance? It seems that in your own mind you are! To compound matters even further you refer to 'personal choice' with regard to the gun situation in your crazy country and then in another reply use the word liberitarian. Are personal choice and liberty only entitlements of individuals who stand in your particular corner on any given issue?

As for the utterly stupid gun laws in America, it comes down to one thing for me. Is one mans right to own a gun worth the life of another man? What I mean is, to stop the bad 'uns you also have to deny the good 'uns the right to own firearms. Is that not worth doing even if it only saved one life. After all, the men and women who have been murdered by this latest lunatic have left behind husbands, wives, children, brothers, sisters, etc, etc. Is all that heartache worth the right to fire a gun?? Absolutely not!!

"....choose to terminate a pregnancy." That's a very sanitary way of saying, "to kill an unborn child." Why can't you just say that? Really, say the words. You'd be much more intellectually honest if you did.

"...utterly stupid gun laws in America..." Oh goodness, where to start. I'm going to make an assumption here. The Founding Fathers of the United States were smarter than me or you. They thought private gun ownership so important that they codified the idea in our Bill of Rights. In addition, most state constitutions remove any ambiguity that some people may find in the Second Amendment.

"Is that not worth doing even if it only saved one life?" Come on now. How many things can we say that about? Many, many more people are killed in automobile accidents than by guns annually. More unborn children are killed every year than people are by guns. So what, we should outlaw cars and abortion? (Note: in this country, legalized abortion was the result of a ruling by appointed judges who legislated from the bench, not by a referendum.) Following your logic to it's conclusion, we should all revert to small gathering (hunting would be too dangerous) societies and hide in our lean-to 23 out of 24 hours. :D

Here's a serious question. Have you ever visited the United States? For that matter, how many of my European cousins on this board have crossed the Pond? What do you know, really know about my country besides what you see/hear/read from the media? I admit that I've never been to Europe. I've been to Canada and Mexico. Living in Texas, going to Mexico is relatively easy. Going to Canada was more of a hike. How long does it take you to get to France? Hell, how long does it take you to drive from one end of your country to the other?

So when you speak about my "crazy country" and our "utterly stupid gun laws", what do you REALLY know?

Michael

hey mike, this is totally off the subject, but where in tejas are you? Im in sweet S.A. not to be confused with Sweet F.A. :D

?Que paso mi amigo?

I live in the friendly confines of far north Plano. Almost to Frisco, but not quite.

I'm down with SA. I went to UT and made many day trips to to relax and eat (not necessarily in that order). I've got cousins that go/went to UTSA.

Welcome to this intellectually stimulating board.

Michael

howdy pahdnah.... i think villiage idiot is also a big ol Texan, is he not? There sure are alot of us crazy cowpokes that love this New Wave-synthpop band called New Order....I thought I was the only one in the state that listened to them but hey as far as your topic(s), I think this guy (in DC) is doing quite a good job at making sure he goes down in history. IF that is his point, I think he's succeeded.....sicko

Yes Michael, I've visited your country. Several times. I've been to New York, LA, San Francisco, Vegas, Washington and even worked for two months in an sports bar in Montok upstate NY when I was a stoodent. I love the place. It's just the "moral minority" like yourself who do my head in. The vast majority of Yanks I've met are brilliant just like the majority of you who use this website. As 445 mentioned before it's your sad devotion to the flag that lets you down.

Get out more Michael! Travel the world. You've only made it to Canada and Mexico? Is that a boast?!! I've done it all mate and I'll tell you it fair opens up your mind. Working on the production line in a car factory in smalltown Czechoslovakia in 1992 certainly taught me a lot about how lucky we've got in the West. Perhaps a jaunt abroad would have the same effect on you.

Originally posted by Grahame Ferguson Yes Michael, I've visited your country. Several times. I've been to New York, LA, San Francisco, Vegas, Washington and even worked for two months in an sports bar in Montok upstate NY when I was a stoodent. I love the place. It's just the "moral minority" like yourself who do my head in. The vast majority of Yanks I've met are brilliant just like the majority of you who use this website. As 445 mentioned before it's your sad devotion to the flag that lets you down. Get out more Michael! Travel the world. You've only made it to Canada and Mexico? Is that a boast?!! I've done it all mate and I'll tell you it fair opens up your mind. Working on the production line in a car factory in smalltown Czechoslovakia in 1992 certainly taught me a lot about how lucky we've got in the West. Perhaps a jaunt abroad would have the same effect on you.

No, travels to my Nothern and Southern neighbors was not a boast. Just letting you know where I've been.

Here's some insight for you: most Americans are very provincial when it comes to travel (except for Jeff et al). Our borders are so vast in this country and regions/geography/people so diverse, that many folks choose to explore their own country first.

I guess I did a poor job of explaining in a previous post how proximity to other counties probably encourages travel. A Brit can take the "chunnel" and be in France in less than an hour. I can barely drive from one end of Dallas to the other in that time ( and that's with not much traffic!). I can go to the "wine country" in Napa/Sonoma ,California. I can go to the "Alps" in Aspen, Colorado. I can do the hip beach scene in Miami Beach, Florida. I'm not saying any of these places is better than those found in Europe. They are just much closer.

Here's another example. For many Texans, traveling to Los Angeles or New York City IS like going to a foreign country. And, I'm sure it's the same for those folks traveling here.

Grahame, I'm gald you made it over here and had good experiences. However, the situation I find myself in makes traveling to Europe somewhat cost prohibitive. I call it WHaCK syndrome: Wife, House and Cars, Kids :D .

I wish I had the opportunity to meet some of you folks as Jeff has. I think knocking back a pint or ten in a proper pub would be more conducive to friendly discussion than this board can sometimes be. Besides, you could explain to me why offsides is REALLY needed as a rule in "football" and I could break down for you the intricacies of the nickle defense in third down passing situations.

Michael

I reckon this guy is going to finish this killing spree by shooting george bush and then himself. I think he's struck again today.

Seriously twisted scary shit... :(

Originally posted by Major Tarantino I reckon this guy is going to finish this killing spree by shooting george bush and then himself. I think he's struck again today. Seriously twisted scary shit... :(

Looks like he's been moving southward (from Maryland to Virginia). Hopefully he's stopped before he might decide to set up shop in my neck of the woods (the Carolinas). I have to cross an awfully big parking lot to get to my car, and I sure as hell don't care for some nutjob shooting at me

i think he's just circling the beltway, round and round (little bit of 'on topic' there). if he does move south, you can keep him in SC, thank you very much. don't need him here in FL. we have enough frightening things here in the orlando area. we don't need a sniper making his way down I-95!

All day yesterday I went around the parking lot at work in a state of hangover (from a drinking binge at "Oktoberfest" Saturday night), so I didn't have a lot of time to reflect on my ruminations, but after I sobered up I became a bit worried. It's my own damn fault and I feel silly for saying it.

As for the sniper(s), just read on Yahoo News that two people were arrested, but doesn't say if they're definitely the guys.