Gigography inconsistencies 1988-9

Without further ado, here's the list for the 88-89 gigs. There's a couple of surprises here.

1988

WIM has 880716 for Apollo Theatre, Manchester. Most likely, he stuck this in the wrong place and forgot to correct it, but you never know. :-)

WR has 881125 for Maracanazinho, Rio De Janeiro, WIM does not.

WR has 881130 for Olympia, Sao Paulo, WIM does not.

WIM lists 881201 for Rio De Janeiro. WR instead has Ibirapuera, Sao Paulo for that date.

WR also has 881202 and 881203, Ibirapuera, Sao Paulo. Apparently NO played there for three days/nights?

1989

(this is the shocker) WIM lists 890213 for an Armenian Aid concert in Moscow Stadium, USSR, which WR doesn't.

WIM has 890324 for Birmingham NEC. This is in addition to the 890326 date that both sites list.

WIM has the Saenger Theatre New Orleans date as 890416. WR gives 890415.

WR lists 890421 at the Astroworld in Houston Texas. WIM does not.

WR has 890422 Starplex Amphitheatre, Dallas. WIM does not.

WR has 890430 for Santa Barbara County Bowl. WIM doesn't.

WR has 890503 for Paramount Theatre, Seattle. You guessed it, WIM doesn't.

WR has 890504 for Queen Elizabeth Theatre, Vancouver. This doesn't appear on the Sultan's list.

WIM lists 890701 Detroit, Michigan. WR notes the date but said the performance on that date was postponed to 890717, due to Barney coming down with a throat infection.

WR has 890712 for Jones Beach, NY. WIM gives 890719.

WIM lists 890714 for a Mann Music Center, Philiadelphia. WR has 890716, and doesn't list the venue (neither does NOOL).

WR has Merriweather Post Pavilion, Columbia, Maryland. WIM does not.

WR has 890717 for the rescheduled Detriot date. WIM still believes this happened on 890701.

WR lists 890719 for Brendan Byrne Arena Meadowlands, NJ, which as I've noted above, WIM has the group at Jones Beach, NY, instead.

--Sam

I would certainly bet that the Seattle show in 89 took place, it's only a short trip up the road from Portland, and I know that one took place. I would remember if I'd heard or read about any cancellation at the time.

Originally posted by Spotnick Sam, you are going into the same process I did a few months ago ;)

You mean, comparing the WiM listing against yours, or simply
trying to garner input for additions or corrections?

I think the list we have here is pretty accurate, at least it might be the best of the 3 due to the member's validation here, however, nothing's perfect.. and the worst are cancelled gigs...

I subsequently realized you were probably referring to the '89 stuff...definitely true...I'll keep what I wrote orignally to avoid confusion, though

That may be true, but wasn't it the case that your list is based on the Water Rat listing? The similarities with respect to date/venue and which gigs have setlists are too close to suggest otherwise. Notice that for the most part, I haven't been dealing with setlists, which the WIM listing isn't going to help with much since with a few exceptions, it doesn't list any pre-1998. I'm not sure if validating members has any influence on the accuracy of their contributions, however, where there's a critical mass of participants, there's sure to be a better chance of nailing things down.

I've now somehow gotten a bit more used to a web-based forum and don't despise it as much as I originally thought I would. I hasten to emphasize that this is _my_ problem, and not yours.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis I think we ALL know NO never played Manc Apollo in 88, so it's hardly a stick to beat him with!

Perhaps not, no. There have only been about three or four "transcription errors" like that in his listing, which isn't really that bad.

And no one seems to have a clear indication of what was / wasn't in the US tour. Best source we have is Molly and he's of the New Order school of No Nonsense Whatever Happens so can't (shouldn't?) be arsed with on all scores..

What was all the confusion due to? One thing I notice immediately is that the US tour was done in two parts, with about a 40 day break in between. If I remember correctly, "part two" was billed as the "Monsters of Modern Rock" tour with PIL and the Sugarcubes. "part one" had Throwing Muses as the opener, at least going by the notes of two seperate gigs. The second thing I notice is that these are no longer club gigs, so would that have turned off the US contingent, since I'd imagine these are much harder and less satisfying to tape. Or were there more "personal" reasons? Don't mind my speculation, I'm just trying to get a handle on why the Technique tour posed especial difficulties.

Here's a more condensed listing of WR for US '89:

part one 11 APR 89 Knight Center - Miami, Florida 12 APR 89 Bayfront Arena - St. Petersburg, Florida 14 APR 89 O'Connell Center - Gainesville, Florida 15 APR 89 Six Flags Over Georgia - Southern Star Amph. Atlanta 16 APR 89 Saenger Theater - New Orleans, Louisiana 20 APR 89 City Coliseum - Austin, Texas 21 APR 89 Astroworld - Houston, Texas 22 APR 89 Starplex Aphitheater - Dallas, Texas 27 APR 89 Universal Amphitheater - Los Angeles, California 28 APR 89 Universal Amphitheater - Los Angeles, California 29 APR 89 Universal Amphitheater - Los Angeles, California 30 APR 89 Santa Barbara County Bowl - Santa Barbara, Clifornia 03 MAY 89 Paramount Theatre - Seattle, Washington 04 MAY 89 Vancouver, BC, Canada

part two 14 JUN 89 Shoreline Amphitheater - Mountain View, California 16 JUN 89 Irvine Meadows Aphitheatre - Irvine, California 17 JUN 89 Aztec Bowl - San Diego, California 21 JUN 89 Salt Lake City, Utah 23 JUN 89 Red Rocks Amphitheater - Denver, Colorado 25 JUN 89 Sandstone Amphitheater - Bonner Springs, Kansas 27 JUN 89 Minneapolis, Minnesota 29 JUN 89 Marcus Amphitheater - Milwaukee, Wisconsin 30 JUN 89 Poplar Creek Music Theater - Hoffman Estates, Illinois 01 JUL 89 Detroit, Michigan CANCELLED->17 JUL 89 03 JUL 89 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 05 JUL 89 Blossom Music Center - Cuyahoga Falls (Cleveland), Ohio 07 JUL 89 C.N.E. Grandstand - Toronto, Ontario 08 JUL 89 Montreal, Quebec 10 JUL 89 Great Woods, Mansfield, MA 11 JUL 89 Lake Compounce Park - Bristol, Connecticut 17 JUL 89 Detroit, Michigan 19 JUL 89 Jones Beach - New York, New York

Also, we're comparing WIM vs WR so why is the forum NOOL? Surely we should be speaking to WIM or WR instead and letting 'em stand up for themselves...

A worthwhile question, with a fairly simple answer. NOOL is where all the eyeballs are now, for better or worse. All the other forums (WIM, Ceremony mailing list, alt.music.new-order) only see sporadic activity these days, and are missing some of the input that I've seen already, lots of thanks on that score.

And regarding "letting 'em stand up for themselves", I don't think it's a matter of trying to knock them down in the first place. Somewhat metaphorically speaking, I'm sure everybody's trusting that the tapes are labelled properly, which as we've seen, isn't always the case.

One thing, based on your suggestion, that I should eventually do is post a list of errata to the WIM webboard. Or maybe I shouldn't be arsed to bother...

--Sam

Originally posted by Al Jarvis No one seems to have a clear indication of what was / wasn't in the US 89 tour. Best source we have is Molly and I believe he's writing a book on the subject as we speak!

Molly? What sort of nickname is that for a bloke?

The NOOL listing include the following shows that both WIM and WR miss:

25 APR 89 Mesa Maphitheatre, Mesa, Arizona 02 MAY 89 Civic Auditorium, Portland, Oregon 04 JUL 89 Darien Lakes, Buffalo, New York

WR has this on the 16th of July, which WIM and NOOL contradict.

14 JUL 89 Mann Music Center, Philadephia, Pennsylvania

--Sam

Originally posted by The Happy One Originally posted by Al Jarvis No one seems to have a clear indication of what was / wasn't in the US 89 tour. Best source we have is Molly and I believe he's writing a book on the subject as we speak!

Molly? What sort of nickname is that for a bloke?

Molly is Dave Molyneux the ex-Paratrooper, who has chalked up 142 New Order gigs all over the world and gets respect amongst those in the N.O. know just for breathing.....

I think from talking to Dave that you had to ring a local radio station, or something(?), to find out where the gig was each night. You knew the City, but didn't know which theatre, stadium, etc was being used. Is this a standard thing for the States as it strikes me as odd.

Wow, how odd. These aren't exactly places that take bands at short notice, either. This strikes me as somewhat poor promotion, or could be the result of interest in either New Order or New Order combined with the openers overflowing the original venues scheduled.

Also, most people probably take their gig-list directly from any merchandise produced for said tour, but I'm sure Dave, upon the seeing the list somewhere, was, like, "No, that gig never happened", "They actually played twice there", "That's the wrong date", etc.

I'd actually like to see what tour dates were originally scheduled.

What also amazes me is that so many of these gigs appear to be missing, bootleg wise when they're such huge venues!! The US 89 tour seems to be the least represented on the tape or general knowledge front!

Yeah, especially when you had groups like Throwing Muses, The Sugarcubes, and PIL also present...

Al

you are right, I need 12 live shows from USA 89, someone must have em.

Christ another 12 would put me on 361 live gigs

Mike

Originally posted by Mike Garrity Al

you are right, I need 12 live shows from USA 89, someone must have em.

Christ another 12 would put me on 361 live gigs

Mike

I "only" have about 228 or so. That's still a sickingly large number.

--Sam

Haven't counted recently, but the 400 figure is exceeded. When you add to that a similar figure of Bunnymen, Fall, Sisters, Beloved tapes as well, you will understand why it takes me a while to copy them sometimes, as finding them can be an issue !

Originally posted by Haven't counted recently, but the 400 figure is exceeded. When you add to that a similar figure of Bunnymen, Fall, Sisters, Beloved tapes as well, you will understand why it takes me a while to copy them sometimes, as finding them can be an issue !

I'd say that's definitely a respectable excuse.

What kind of book is Mr Molly writing?

Clockwork C wrote: What kind of book is Mr Molly writing?

I'm not sure he is still doing it. It was to be a roadtrip account of the US'89 tour.

WR has Merriweather Post Pavilion, Columbia, Maryland. WIM does not.

This gig defintely took place - I was at it and I have the ticket stub somewhere.

It is not in the gig guide on this site (which points to WM?).

Also, my (now) wife was at the Toronto gig.

Finally, US gigs were pretty strict at enforcing bans of cameras, tape recorders etc in those days so that may explain lack of bootlegs of the US tour.

Jonathan.

JonnyMac wrote:

WR has Merriweather Post Pavilion, Columbia, Maryland. WIM does not.

This gig defintely took place - I was at it and I have the ticket stub somewhere.

The recording turned up in early 06, standard fare for that tour.