New Order: English or British?

To some people it may not matter (certainly you yanks who think England is Britain), but having just read an Australian music site that did a review of music in 1987 it made my blood boil to see New Order (True Faith) and The Proclaimers (some jock crap song) classed as from the same country!!! Plus I don't think "we are singing for Britain" as quite the same ring!

Eng ur land!

I think the little country or region or whatever the hell you consider England is just part of the UK (that is, Britain), and whatever antagonisms you may have between the other bits and pieces of your eroded empire don't mean a thing to me. Some bands I'd classify as distinctly Scottish (like The Exploited) and some as distinctly Irish (like Stiff Little Fingers), but New Order seem plenty English to me. So when I refer to Britain and New Order as a British band, I really mean England, to be totally proper--but since I'm usually addressing that info to someone else from the States (who likewise doesn't share the sort of "colonized by wankers" regional pride you have over there), I refer to the whole area as Britain, because there's no reason to dice that whole tiny bunch of islands into little bits.

I'll support you in slagging the Proclaimers anytime, 'cos they're Hibees !

Seriously though, there are four different countries in the UK and although they are all British, the people from each one of countries are proud to be what they are, whether it is English, Scottish or the others. Nothing wrong with that ! There's one significant factor though: the smaller countries will always gang up against the English. I remember spending an afternoon watching the Rugby where the Scots beat the Welsh something rotten but the atmosphere remained super at all times. There must have been as many Scots as Welsh there but no bother at all. Had the opposition been English I'm sure it would have been different. The Irish and the Scots get on great as well.

My other half will always slag the English as a standard joke, but some of his best mates are English so it doesn't go that deep.

However, call him English and he turns a lovely shade of different colours !

Their passports will tell you that they are British. State of the Nation was a Scottish record though

Historically, the English have treated the Welsh, Irish, and Scots like shit. This is mostly forgotten apart from the times, as Geri notes above, when we're playing sport against each other. Culturally, we all have very different roots, too, and although, musically, these roots have mostly been ameliorated (both within the UK and Internationally), it's very difficult for me as an English man to imagine New Order as coming from anywhere but England, and in fact, speaking as a Southern git, I can't imagine them as having come from anywhere else but the North of England.

They're English, aren't they? It's pretty obvious. But don't start on the excellent Proclaimers, they piss all over the great majority of English bands.

Originally posted by Spotnick Been there, done that...Is Quebec a part of Canada or not? Seriously, I have no idea what is the difference between England and UK, but it always seemed to be that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales are like "provinces" of England, and together they are called United Kingdom,

Oh, no no no...don't ever make that mistake again!

The difference between England and the UK is exactly the same as the difference between Scotland and the UK - they are both constituent kingdoms. England just happens to be bigger.

Hence England isn't the same thing as "the UK" any more than Scotland is.

The British were Celtic; The English were Germanic invaders-- Angles, Saxons, and Jutes-- and pushed the British almost off the island. The Welsh and the Cornish are whats's left of "Britain."

Wales and Scotland are not "provinces" of England. Nor is Ireland-- "Northern" Ireland is just a bit of left-over English imperialism that's taken on a life of its own. They were separate nations, now united under a common monarch. That's why it's the "United Kingdom."

Great Britain, as far as I can tell, refers to the British empire.

The Scottish and the Welsh still have a separate national identity, but by now, the old ethnic distinctions in England itself, vis-a-vis British/English/Norman, must have blurred quite a bit.

Originally posted by Lee Curzon To some people it may not matter (certainly you yanks who think England is Britain), but having just read an Australian music site that did a review of music in 1987 it made my blood boil to see New Order (True Faith) and The Proclaimers (some jock crap song) classed as from the same country!!! Plus I don't think "we are singing for Britain" as quite the same ring!

oh for f**ks sake ! england is england wales is wales scotland is scotland northern ireland is northern ireland ireland is ireland they are all collectively known as britain or the united kingdom! hence the queen is head of state in the above countries (oz & nz too!) dont you understand you silly yanks? do we call the usa canada? i think not ! yes some people do have regional pride etc,but we dont shout britain when england arec playing do we? you yanks dont understand cos your shit at football anyway! god who started this topic anyway? we must be really bloody desperate if we are talking shit like this! maybe we should have a slag of yanks topic and a slag of english topic!!!!! ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no wonder i"m

Originally posted by nuts god who started this topic anyway?

a brit

Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope I think the little country or region or whatever the hell you consider England is just part of the UK (that is, Britain), and whatever antagonisms you may have between the other bits and pieces of your eroded empire don't mean a thing to me. Some bands I'd classify as distinctly Scottish (like The Exploited) and some as distinctly Irish (like Stiff Little Fingers), but New Order seem plenty English to me. So when I refer to Britain and New Order as a British band, I really mean England, to be totally proper--but since I'm usually addressing that info to someone else from the States (who likewise doesn't share the sort of "colonized by wankers" regional pride you have over there), I refer to the whole area as Britain, because there's no reason to dice that whole tiny bunch of islands into little bits.

oh dear david, bit patronising that! so using your "argument" what's the point of cutting up America into north america, Canada, Peru, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil etc?

there is every reason to do it - its because they are different countries, with different flags, national anthems etc.

Originally posted by devastating dave oh dear david, bit patronising that!so using your "argument" what's the point of cutting up America into north america, Canada, Peru, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil etc?

I didn't know that England was the same size as the American continents ; California itself is quite a bit larger than tiny England, and I would not ask you to distinguish between Northern Californians, Southern Californians; better yet splitting the Valley people, downtown people of LA. The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom, that's it period.

They wish they were a german band.;)

Originally posted by Server Error in "/" Application They wish they were a german band.;)

If they were a French band, then I bet the brits would feel even better

I never could understand why you "Brits" call us "Yanks." I am not a yank!! What in the hell is one?? My Dad doesn't even do that as when he gets mad he just says, "Those bloody Americans!!!" Please, someone enlighten me.

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by devastating dave> > > oh dear david, bit patronising that!> so using your "argument" what's the point of cutting up America into north america, Canada, Peru, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil etc?>

I didn't know that England was the same size as the American continents ; California itself is quite a bit larger than tiny England, and I would not ask you to distinguish between Northern Californians, Southern Californians; better yet splitting the Valley people, downtown people of LA. The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom, that's it period.

You're confusing the nation-state with the ethnic nationalities.

Originally posted by Dark Angel I never could understand why you "Brits" call us "Yanks." I am not a yank!! What in the hell is one?? My Dad doesn't even do that as when he gets mad he just says, "Those bloody Americans!!!" Please, someone enlighten me.

Here's one explanation

Here's a slightly different explanation

And finally...: "But over the years, the English, or "Yangeese" as the local Indians called them, thrived as more settlers moved to the colonies and built up houses and towns, even shipping in their cattle and setting up fences for pasture lands. Gradually the Indians came to resent the colonists who crowded in on the wilderness, driving away the Indians' wild game, and brought cattle that trampled the Indians' corn crops. "

Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by devastating dave> > > oh dear david, bit patronising that!> so using your "argument" what's the point of cutting up America into north america, Canada, Peru, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil etc?>

I didn't know that England was the same size as the American continents ; California itself is quite a bit larger than tiny England, and I would not ask you to distinguish between Northern Californians, Southern Californians; better yet splitting the Valley people, downtown people of LA. The United Kingdom is the United Kingdom, that's it period.

You're confusing the nation-state with the ethnic nationalities. um... both regions in CA have much different populations, with the South containing far more Hispanics; the issue here is culture more than anything else, and there are many splits of culture that could be made in CA, which are not done so because they are silly

California was never a nation-state. "Californian" does not describe an ethnic-nationality.

Scotland was a nation-state, as well as an ethnic nationality distinct from that of England. They had/have a separate language. (The Scots were actually Irish tribes who settled in what is now Scotland. The inhabitants of Scotland before the Scots were the Picts, who like the Britons inhabitating what is now England, were Celtic; the Irish and the Scots were Gaelic Celts.)They had a separate monarchy until the 17th century.

Wales was also a nation-state, with an ethnic nationality and language distinct from that of England.

Devastating's point regarding the divisions of the American continents was well-taken. It's just plain mistaken to compare the ethnic and political situation of the United Kingdom with California.

Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr California was never a nation-state. "Californian" does not describe an ethnic-nationality. Scotland was a nation-state, as well as an ethnic nationality distinct from that of England. They had/have a separate language. (The Scots were actually Irish tribes who settled in what is now Scotland. The inhabitants of Scotland before the Scots were the Picts, who like the Britons inhabitating what is now England, were Celtic; the Irish and the Scots were Gaelic Celts.)They had a separate monarchy until the 17th century.Wales was also a nation-state, with an ethnic nationality and language distinct from that of England.Devastating's point regarding the divisions of the American continents was well-taken. It's just plain mistaken to compare the ethnic and political situation of the United Kingdom with California.

sorry about my hyperbole, but wasn't California Mexican before??? Isn't there a clash of cultures here between whites, hispanics, asians, and african-americans. I was exaggerating with CA, but I am just saying that the dividing such a miniscule amount of land is pointless, especially when the cultures of each region is not so strong anymore with the amount of immigration each region has endured.

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr> California was never a nation-state. "Californian" does not describe an ethnic-nationality. > > Scotland was a nation-state, as well as an ethnic nationality distinct from that of England. They had/have a separate language. (The Scots were actually Irish tribes who settled in what is now Scotland. The inhabitants of Scotland before the Scots were the Picts, who like the Britons inhabitating what is now England, were Celtic; the Irish and the Scots were Gaelic Celts.)They had a separate monarchy until the 17th century.> > Wales was also a nation-state, with an ethnic nationality and language distinct from that of England.> > Devastating's point regarding the divisions of the American continents was well-taken. It's just plain mistaken to compare the ethnic and political situation of the United Kingdom with California.

sorry about my hyperbole, but wasn't California Mexican before??? Isn't there a clash of cultures here between whites, hispanics, asians, and african-americans. I was exaggerating with CA, but I am just saying that the dividing such a miniscule amount of land is pointless, especially when the cultures of each region is not so strong anymore with the amount of immigration each region has endured.

Don't get me started on why Mexico's claim to California is such BS.

Nevertheless, I understand what you're saying, but Devastating Dave is still right regarding the UK. It's three distinct nations, albeit united under a common monarch, just as North America is three separate nations. And who knows, the UK may yet become three separate nations again.

National identity is eternal, countries are often just political conventions, often against the will of most of the nations involved. Been there.

Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by Server Error in "/" Application> They wish they were a german band.;)

If they were a French band, then I bet the brits would feel even better are you taking the piss? us english do not like the french they are arrogant filthy peasant farmers! when they can get what they want from their own government,they stage massive general strikes blocking off routes inside paris and the ferry ports .and as a very large percentage of the people who use the ferries are english ,then yoyu can see why the english people dont like them! and they refused to help bush & blair by going into iraq to find that tyrant saddam hussein . gutless bastards! if it wasnt for our two great countries england and america they would all be speaking german by now! p.s just like to point out that we do like french canadians! jack villeneuve could be better than schumacher if he was given the right car again! but dont get me started on germans! i dont think joy division actually wanted to be like germans,it was just at that time ibn the 70"s everyone wanted to shock people,and by using nazi imagery in videos and remarks etc. look at other bands of the time.they"ve all done it!

Nice to see the Americans don't know the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom!

We like our regionalism round these parts, so the Order aren't just 'Northern' but specifically Manc - few people from, say, Leeds or Liverpool or Newcastle would like to be lumped in with the others as homogenously 'northern'. I'm sure it all seems a bit puerile to non-UK dwellers, but regional identity tends to overshadow all others (except maybe when the World Cup comes round, or if we're abroad).

I'm not going to get dragged into the UK vs US baiting that crops up here on a semi-regular basis, but I'll be in Noo Yoik City in a few weeks time, so if (given the current warnings) I get flown into a building or blown up with a shoe or gassed on the subway I BLAME YOU YANKS!!!!

Mancs? I thought they were from Salford...

Originally posted by Hesky's Whiteass© Mancs? I thought they were from Salford...

Precisely....

The UK consists of the Island of Great Britain (Scotland, Wales and England) and Northern Ireland. In 1921 it became known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland after the rest of Ireland became the Republic of Ireland.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by martin fradley> > > > Originally posted by Hesky's Whiteass©> > Mancs? I thought they were from Salford...>

Precisely....

Does anyone still take it down to school level?

I left school 20 years ago but upon hearing of people from Luton I still ask which school they went to, and draw my own pre-conceptions from there.

Schools pfff! I tell the kids kicking balls outside to play down their own end of the street.

Originally posted by ShugZV© Does anyone really give a fuck whether they're English or British?English they are.....but it's not their fault:D

They are not 'English OR British' they're both. Hybrid are Welsh and British, The Proclaimers are Scottish and British, Stiff Little Fingers are Northern Irish and British (although they might contest the latter), and U2 are Irish and Crap. Innit?

Okay, yes - England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are seperate countries.

This page is a good description of United Kingdom and Great Britain.

Tony Blair is prime minister of the United Kingdom, although there are regional parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (sometimes!) - the power bestowed upon these parliaments is reduced to local issues - see here and here for more info on the Scottish Parliament, and here for more info on the Welsh Assembly.

California is a State within the United States of America, similar to that of counties in England, although counties in England don't have seperate laws from that of other counties within England. California is *NOT* a country and so can't be compared with England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland.

In essence, I'm English living in England within the county of Hertfordshire!

l8rs,

Nick ;)

It's all very confusing if you don't live here! I class myself as English normally. My resume says British though - thats politically correct! Personally I have never understood the federal, state, and local laws of the USA! And are you really American when there are two continents called America?? :(

"Is SCOTLAND, NORTHERN IRELAND AND WALES part of the Europeran Community as a full member, or all they all part of UK, is Tony Blair the prime minister of ALL countries?"

Tony Blair Rules! Sadly. There are some token gestures of local assemblies/parliaments in Scotland and Wales - the one in Northern Ireland isn't working - but the real power is still in Blair's grubby mitts. I think Great Britain is a member of the EEC rather than the individual 'British' countries.

It's actually been suggested that there might be a 'British' football team at the Olympics next year; this will of course give NO the chance to re-record World in Motion with the Chorus 'We're singing for Britain (Great Britain!)' or possibly 'We're singing for England (and Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland!)'

They are english and british. Except when they made State of the Nation, when they were french

Part Salford, Part Macc, considered to be Manc all of which are English ... unless the people rise and formally declare the Republic of Mancunia ... and we're working on it ...

The reason we have separate football teams but a single olympics team is that if we have a single football team we would have to have merged leagues - not too easy. And if we split the olympics team Wales would never win anything! :p

I knew the difference between the "UK" and "Great Britain" (as well as "Britain" versus Scotland or England) long before I even heard of New Order. I'm not saying I learned it in school, necessarily: Monty Python taught me :D

Seriously, though, I've always thought of Britain as the four distinct parts of the "British Isles" (Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England), and thus am a bit taken aback at the level of "stupid Americans" talk currently on the thread. But, seeing as Britain is held together by the "monarchy", let me propose a solution to all this.....

Elizabeth II :headoff: Charley Big Ears :sex: then :headoff: The two "princes" :headoff: The rest of the imperialistic, immoral, inbreeding "royal family" :headoff:

There, now you can all be seperate

Anyway, back to the "main thrust" of the arguement: I've always thought of NO as a "Northern" band or Manchester band, English but not "British". So there

I can hardly be blamed for my ignorance concerning New Order viz. the balkanization of that bunch of islands whose name I shant even try to name anymore. Maybe if the Order was a political band, I'd have reason to know the distinction. And anyway, what's the final answer? What's the UK, what's Britain, what's Great Britain?

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by John Collis> Nice to see the Americans don't know the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom!

Ask them the difference between a Big Mac and a Whopper though, and they could probably write you a plotted history on the subject.

Monkeys.

gentlemen!

there are over 270 million americans! therefore i ask you to refrain from generalizing. there are at least a good few hundred or so of us who know the difference between great britain and the united kingdom!

i prefer big macs. the special sauce gives it that extra push.

Originally posted by Grigori and the flame broiled whopper beats anything Mickey can offer in the way of a sandwich any day...

f@*^ing liar.

to stay (or to go for the first time) on topic: if pushed, i suppose i would say NO were english, as WIM comes to mind. however, as england is part of great britain they're british, as well. they're also european...but not european. they do live in the eastern and northern hemispheres, however, on planet Earth. as far as i know.

Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope I can hardly be blamed for my ignorance concerning New Order viz. the balkanization of that bunch of islands whose name I shant even try to name anymore. Maybe if the Order was a political band, I'd have reason to know the distinction. And anyway, what's the final answer? What's the UK, what's Britain, what's Great Britain?

Did you read me reply?

Originally posted by Nick King > Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope> I can hardly be blamed for my ignorance concerning New Order viz. the balkanization of that bunch of islands whose name I shant even try to name anymore. Maybe if the Order was a political band, I'd have reason to know the distinction. And anyway, what's the final answer? What's the UK, what's Britain, what's Great Britain?

Did you read me reply? Yes, but I didn't follow the links. Now I'm straight on it. Thanks, sirrah.

see they did digress into burgers!

tch.

we have some buildings that are over 50 years old in england & the rest of the uk as well mind.

Originally posted by devastating dave see they did digress into burgers!tch.we have some buildings that are over 50 years old in england & the rest of the uk as well mind.

yes...this particular american spent several years living in one of 'your' 15th-century buildings, in what you refer to as 'the rest of the UK.' not to mention a lovely tower block and suburban semi-detached in england. ta! :D

Absolutely English IMO.

Remember the official song for the national team in Italy '90, plus all Manchester stuff.

Originally posted by almanso > Originally posted by Hand of God> Absolutely English IMO. > > Remember the official song for the national team in Italy '90

well, that´s a little cheat of the UKers, IMO. why letting play Wales, Scotland, England as separate teams? why not a UK team? i mean, if they ARE from the kingdom. if not give them the freedom and end it! besides, wasn´t the USSR playing as a "whole" in their time? or Yugoslavia, or Czechoslovakia?

if not why don´t they let the national team of Pays Basque play? or former eastern Germany? or Bessarabia?

well, i stepped into geo-political-historic ground here. so i won´t say another word! we dont let the welsh,scots,irish join in a "uk" football team cos they are all shite!(ok,maybe a few good players!) and england are just as bad! we like to be called great britian when we compete in the athletics cos we get to pick the best of the bunch, most of us english are really lazy when it comes to sports,we"d rather drink tea scratch our balls or go to the pub to watch some geezer from wales running for us in the 500 meters!(wearing the gb shirt of course!) this is because of years of underfunding ,the british sports council doesnt get enough money to "encourage" enough people into athletics,etc,as it is!

Originally posted by Grigori > Originally posted by devastating dave> see they did digress into burgers!> > tch.> > we have some buildings that are over 50 years old in england & the rest of the uk as well mind.

dave...we've got buildings over 50 years old here in Dallas as well...

did you mean 500???:p

actually i was quoting from la story - the steve martin film...

Definitely German - just ask Barney Albrecht, this along with the fact they all drive German cars and would like to drive German tanks (Steve said he wanted but couldn't afford a Tiger Panzer). There you go simple as that.

One other thing - years ago someone told me it was offensive to call all Americans 'yanks'? Whats the actual American viewpoint on this?

you yanks dont understand cos your shit at football anyway!

Yeah, that's why we were a questionable referee's decision away from the semi-finals in korea last year.

And now for something completely different...

english

I was not born in GREAT BRITAIN. I was born in England and if anyone calls me 'British', I tell them I am 'English'.

New Order are an ENGLISH band.

DM

Originally posted by Marcus Germanicus Definitely German - just ask Barney Albrecht, this along with the fact they all drive German cars and would like to drive German tanks (Steve said he wanted but couldn't afford a Tiger Panzer). There you go simple as that.One other thing - years ago someone told me it was offensive to call all Americans 'yanks'? Whats the actual American viewpoint on this?

I am not a "Yank." I was not born in New England. My father is English and my mother American, so what exactly does that make me? Definitely not a Yank!

Think NO are european. Make a mix of english and continatial beat. Manchester background but I hear Kaftwerk. JD are much original and British.

Face it they are British, English, Mancunian, European - b,loody everything except American