Is Barney actually any good?

Having upset loads of people with my previous Ian Curtis post. I thought I'd try this one instead. Somehow I think responses will be a little less passionate.

Anyway, I find his lyrics endearingly amusing, although on the whole perhaps not as good as IC.

I prefer the sound of his voice, even though technically he can't sing either. But when the songs come together, they are magical and for me Barney is the magician that pulls everything together.

Better than IC......you bet!! but then this is a New Order website the last time I looked. I appreciate JD, but for me NO are far superior.

Any good at what ?

As a singer, his voice has improved with age and experience. Probably most important was the discovery that they could write songs in keys that suited his voice, rather than sticking to keys that didn't use black notes as they had with JD and early NO.

As a lyricist, Barney is capable of flashes of brilliant insight and simple yet effective structure. He is also capable of absolute garbage. The quality control button sometimes gets stuck ! Let's just be grateful that the live lyrics don't get onto the record, as your lovely Savile sleeves would suffer from Tipper Gore's little stickers.

As a guitarist, he's probably a lot more competent than he ever allows himself to seem - all the songs are structured in a way that affords him minimal live work. Some of the JD stuff showed a theoretical understanding (the blues E scale in NDF came straight from a book), but there has been little straying from the basic use of barre chords.

As a complete songwriter, he is one of the most innovative and unheralded writers of the last 25 years. Never forget that Barney is the melody man, the provider of most of your favourite tunes. Hooky and Steve have their own roles in the creation of a New Order/Joy Division song, in terms of format, patterns etc, but Barney has been the main tune writer. Some of the stuff is entirely his own work - Temptation for example. Take a look at some of the complicated arrangements on Electronic to hear what he can do - the majority of that album was written by Barney as solo during 1989 before hooking up with Johnny Marr.

In a nutshell, he is a genius songwriter and producer, with a real talent for sound creation and development.

Tim for the sake of the longevity of future controversial threads, could you refrain from posting pretty much all there is to say on the matter in a sharp, concise summary until about 15 posts in?

Sorry

He's a great bass player

Originally posted by Napoleon Any good at what ?As a singer, his voice has improved with age and experience. Probably most important was the discovery that they could write songs in keys that suited his voice, rather than sticking to keys that didn't use black notes as they had with JD and early NO.As a lyricist, Barney is capable of flashes of brilliant insight and simple yet effective structure. He is also capable of absolute garbage. The quality control button sometimes gets stuck ! Let's just be grateful that the live lyrics don't get onto the record, as your lovely Savile sleeves would suffer from Tipper Gore's little stickers.As a guitarist, he's probably a lot more competent than he ever allows himself to seem - all the songs are structured in a way that affords him minimal live work. Some of the JD stuff showed a theoretical understanding (the blues E scale in NDF came straight from a book), but there has been little straying from the basic use of barre chords.As a complete songwriter, he is one of the most innovative and unheralded writers of the last 25 years. Never forget that Barney is the melody man, the provider of most of your favourite tunes. Hooky and Steve have their own roles in the creation of a New Order/Joy Division song, in terms of format, patterns etc, but Barney has been the main tune writer. Some of the stuff is entirely his own work - Temptation for example. Take a look at some of the complicated arrangements on Electronic to hear what he can do - the majority of that album was written by Barney as solo during 1989 before hooking up with Johnny Marr.In a nutshell, he is a genius songwriter and producer, with a real talent for sound creation and development.

Bravo!!

He is a GREAT musician and he doesn't get the proper credit for it.

He is a great dancer and he doesn't get the proper credit for it neither

Originally posted by Napoleon In a nutshell, he is a genius songwriter and producer, with a real talent for sound creation and development.

enuff said

The art of being a producer isn't about adding fancy bits here and there though, and giving polish to recordings, it is about understanding what the musicians envisage as their sound for the song, and interacting with them to produce a product that both delivers these ideas and improves the sound if at all possible. Knocking up a slick-sounding synth recording is easy enough with the vast array of tools available today - I did two professional-sounding mixes of a track last night just using Cubase and a MIDI controller, but that doesn't make me a great producer. Barney's skill on Freaky Dancing was in capturing what the Mondays wanted it to sound like, and translating that energy and spontaniety into a really tight recording. So many Mondays songs sound as though they are rambling along when they in fact have a rock-solid drums/bass core.

A great producer knows, maybe instinctively, what sounds good, how the band he is working with want to sound, and knows when he is right and when they are right.

His talent for production was clear in Electronics work.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Napoleon> Barney's skill on Freaky Dancing was in capturing what the Mondays wanted it to sound like, and translating that energy and spontaniety into a really tight recording.

Are we talking about the same song, Tim? There's nothing 'tight' about Freaky Dancin' whatsoever, it sounds a right ramshackle mess on vinyl. All over the shop, I'd have said. It sounds like he let 'em get away with whatever they wanted and didn't place any restrictions on the band whatsoever. Of all the Mondays singles from that era, it just sounds like a sprawling mess, almost a piss-take (which some might say the Mondays were!)..

No, we're not :D muggins here was confusing his Mondays tracks ! FD is a mess, agreed. It was his first real solo foray into production though, and knowing the collective penchant for ingestible accompaniment, it is little surprise. For some reason I was getting my titles mixed up on Mondays songs.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by DoN> His talent for production was clear in Electronics work.

Yes, production on the eponymous album was sooperb, but the other two?! I've never been able to get to grips with either of 'em.

Steve does grease his chin quite a lot.....

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by DoN> His talent for production was clear in Electronics work.

Was that strictly a 'solo' effort though?

Actually, I've just had to re-edit this. Yes, production on the eponymous album was sooperb, but the other two?! I've never been able to get to grips with either of 'em.

Not solely but i thought the whole idea was for him to be able to express his music in a way he couldnt with NewOrder therefore he would have much more input with Electronic. The production on the eponymous album may have been good in its day but have you actually listened to it lately? it sounds thin and clunky by todays standards, The production on the third album was a lot richer and lusher sounding, in fact it suffered from overproduction with Barney getting a bit too carried away with his new toys if anything!!

Listened to the eponymous one last night - still love the production, and some of the versions they did as B sides etc.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Napoleon> > > > > > > > No, we're not :D muggins here was confusing his Mondays tracks ! FD is a mess, agreed. It was his first real solo foray into production though, and knowing the collective penchant for ingestible accompaniment, it is little surprise. For some reason I was getting my titles mixed up on Mondays songs.>

There's a bit of a giveaway in the title. Freaky Dancin' is the one where they, er, sing "Freaky Dancin'" in the chorus.

;)

As far as I'm away Sumner never produced any other Mondays, did he?

Bez's last single apparently.

Originally posted by Napoleon Listened to the eponymous one last night - still love the production, and some of the versions they did as B sides etc.

Whats the B-side to GAWI

Lucky Bag i think,

I hold my hands up to admitting thats brilliance :D

I thought Arthur Baker produced the Twisted Tenderness? Sumner is great as long as he's not on stage. His live antics absolutely RUIN newOrder on stage. Whoops, whistles, barn dancing, forgetting the lyrics/reading them from a teleprompter and spouting SHITE (this is a "new version" -- as and intro to the 94 Perfecto remix of True Faith almost 10 years after 94!!). All of these things make New Order into a sideshow Vegas act instead of the respected band they should be after all these years. Somebody slip Bernard a valum before they go on stage next time and try to End his Obnoxious, Embarrasing (to the rest of New Order and the fans) antics.

If it weren't for Hooky, New Order would be dead.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid I thought Arthur Baker produced the Twisted Tenderness? Sumner is great as long as he's not on stage. His live antics absolutely RUIN newOrder on stage. Whoops, whistles, barn dancing, forgetting the lyrics/reading them from a teleprompter and spouting SHITE (this is a "new version" -- as and intro to the 94 Perfecto remix of True Faith almost 10 years after 94!!). All of these things make New Order into a sideshow Vegas act instead of the respected band they should be after all these years. Somebody slip Bernard a valum before they go on stage next time and try to End his Obnoxious, Embarrasing (to the rest of New Order and the fans) antics.If it weren't for Hooky, New Order would be dead.

Hey Bryan!! :D

hows your better half and you crazy city keeping?

And just for the record, their studio music is as im sure we all agree peerless :)

Why cant they have a laugh on stage! i know i would if i was them!!

Keep saving the serious stuff for the albums lads!

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Napoleon> > > > > > > > No, we're not :D muggins here was confusing his Mondays tracks ! FD is a mess, agreed. It was his first real solo foray into production though, and knowing the collective penchant for ingestible accompaniment, it is little surprise. For some reason I was getting my titles mixed up on Mondays songs.>

There's a bit of a giveaway in the title. Freaky Dancin' is the one where they, er, sing "Freaky Dancin'" in the chorus.

;)

As far as I'm away Sumner never produced any other Mondays, did he?

True, but I didn't have the records with me at work, and I'm not what you would call a fan !

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid I thought Arthur Baker produced the Twisted Tenderness? Sumner is great as long as he's not on stage. His live antics absolutely RUIN newOrder on stage. Whoops, whistles, barn dancing, forgetting the lyrics/reading them from a teleprompter and spouting SHITE (this is a "new version" -- as and intro to the 94 Perfecto remix of True Faith almost 10 years after 94!!). All of these things make New Order into a sideshow Vegas act instead of the respected band they should be after all these years. Somebody slip Bernard a valum before they go on stage next time and try to End his Obnoxious, Embarrasing (to the rest of New Order and the fans) antics.If it weren't for Hooky, New Order would be dead.

100% agree with the above.

I'm somewhere in the middle btwn BLT/Napoloeon and Shugs. I assume we're talking about the Order of the present, right?

There's a line that's sometimes crossed when you start laughing at him than with him. Whooping through the umpteenth rendition of that Love Triangle ditty is one thing, whooping through Atmosphere is just crass. I wonder if Steve and Hooky sometimes think to themselves "what have we done" in agreeing to reform New Order. On the other hand, the Barnster's probably responsible for more laugh-out-loud between-song banter and "f**k [lyric] c**t" than anyone would or should have expected. Keeps me busy noting it all down, anyway.

I recall once reading or discussing with NO of 1983 would do upon seeing themselves 20 years later...have they truly become what they despised? I'm sure they would have just _loved_ the autocue (what we in the States call a "teleprompter")

--Sam

Before anyone points a webgun at me for being overtly nostalgic, or accuses me of trenchcoat worship or not lightening up, I certainly preferred the era when Barney was too shy/stage struck to say anything, and they just got on with the set. Occasional comments between songs in the old days somehow added to the intrigue. It started to change in Japan 1987 (gawd knows what drugs were available out there), and since then he seems to think he's a comedian.

For every genuinely funny comment you get ten either repeated or crap ones. I don't know about anyone else, but I go to New Order gigs to see them play the songs I like. I enjoy the craic with the lads before and after, don't get me wrong, but during the gig itself I want to see New Order playing their songs, not the "Bernard Sumner as Bernard Manning" show.

Well, I did laugh out loud seeing this topic juxtaposed against the 'Is Ian any good' one...if we're going to be debating about Curtis, we really need our heads checked. This one though has produced more interesting commentary.

At least Barney in his present condition is good for the tribute bands...I've only seen New Order twice being in the US and all, so I'm in awe of the old-timers that can still stomach any of this.

I'll leave you with the following live quotation, this one from Finsbury Park 2002. I think further commentary by me is pointless besides wondering how much of this is taking the piss, how much of it is serious, and is whether whatever is left is just the sort of Vegas tomfoolery that some here so despise?

Temptation

BS: "Do we want Hooky to turn his bass down a little bit? (faking Hooky voice) YES! (meanwhile Hooky goes up to his amp and pretends to turn it down) Actually, this song is all me anyway, all me, you know. I wrote it, it's all my lyrics, you know, we don't need anybody else so if you want a break, go fuck off for a bit. (Hooky actually walks off stage left) This is my song, it's called Temptation.

(calling back to Hooky) You can help me out a little bit if you want."

Maybe BARNEY is still shy but life has took its toll on him also and this is how he deals with his nerves now.I am very shy really but have to put a BIG front whenever i meet new people.Embarrassing as it seems to us sometimes we have all grown up to and EXPECT more from our hereos and mentors.Look how apeshit 40 year footie fans get these days and the way they wear the shirts of their idols.Now that is very naff(says me sat here with an ENGLAND shirt on...come on BOBBY!:D )But the old ways although seeming better ain't going to come back.Do NEW ORDER really care about us or is it the money.I think they still care enough without it becoming PANTOMIME but after all i have lived through i still enjoy a day out to see them.Would love to change some of the things i do now also but the difference is no one cares what i do.For NEW ORDER still making records is the best of it for me.Plus how many of you have ever made a clown of yourself at a gig.I know i have had. Maybe no JOY DIVISION songs at all would be the answer but i am still waiting for NOVELTY. WHAT YOU GONNA DO WHEN THE NOVELTY (ACT) HAS GONE?;)

Barney is New Order. NO Barney no New Order simple isn't it. Aren't we all NO fans q e d he is brilliant. Ok this may be not quite true as the other 3 also make significant contributions. For those who don't like his live performances, that's the way it is get used to it, it's all part of the unique charm of a NO live performance.

If you want perfection don't see them live, listen to theier live performances or buy their DVDs. If you want perfection go see the Cure and stop complaining here.

Originally posted by Rocket Mick I am very shy really but have to put a BIG front whenever i meet new people.

Should we call you Jordan really then Mick ?

Originally posted by Low-Life > Originally posted by Rocket Mick> I am very shy really but have to put a BIG front whenever i meet new people.

Should we call you Jordan really then Mick ?

Originally posted by Ronald Kirsch If you want perfection go see the Cure

Quite.

If Barney is no good then why do NO still exist I would guess that 99% of us will pay to go and see NO -OK they are not always perfect but isn't that what live music and all the bootlegs we buy or exchange is all about?:D

Without Barney, no NO.

Quite right -he did keep the band going, so why knock him for the fact that he can't be Ian??

I didn't read many of the replies...sometimes they get a little abstract. ( Don't look at me like that, we all babble) I think the fact of the matter is, Sumner wrote better stuff when he was trying to be as much UNLIKE "Joy Division" as possible. Also I'm sure he abused a substance or two. Also, the subject matter was about overcomming and often succumbing to the oddities and dangers in life.

Nowadays it seems asthough Sumner is sitting in his golf shirt and khakis writing about good times and trying to incorperate "Joy Division" into the "New Order" spectrum. Joy Division (which was happily being enjoyed in its haunting semi-obscurity) and New Order seems like a good ol' bring the kids celebration of love life and partying with our clothes on. BORING.

Yo Sumner! Leave JD alone in the darkness before you give it sunspots and to fans...somebody please buy that man at least a caffinated beverage to get started. I saw a reference to Gillian being on "tea" duty. I won't rant about tea other than it 'ad better be "herbal" tea if you catch my drift.

JD and NO rule still.

Have you ever been a victim in a violent fight When you know it's not true and you know it's not right Got not one ounce or inch of control You got lust for blood runnin' in your soul You know if every person upon this earth Became the image of the mother in a violent birth We could sow the seed, to stop this sand And heal this brutal beat-up land

If there's a place to be why don't you come with me Listen to your father, listen to your brother Take every chance that comes, maybe you'll find someone We don't need to argue, we just need each other

There's a mirror on the table, if you feel you could use it Don't be ashamed, go ahead just do it Protect your cranium, let it explode Put your faith in the mother lode Now if all this seems to be eccentric Be aware be sure I meant it The tunnel of love has got no end I'm well received, but I don't send

having said what i did in my last post, i'd like to add that there's no one else i'd rather listen to than New Order and Bernard Sumner. New Order are an integral part of every day of my life and that would not be true if not for Bernard Sumner.

DON!

the better half keeps getting better...i'm a lucky man. we miss you an shuglet (if you can believe that) and look forward to another visit from you guys.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapezoid having said what i did in my last post, i'd like to add that there's no one else i'd rather listen to than New Order and Bernard Sumner. New Order are an integral part of every day of my life and that would not be true if not for Bernard Sumner.

Could not have said it any better BLT. That about sums it up for me!!

As for the producing, let's not forget all the other stuff out there under the Bemusic moniker...esp the SECTION 25 stuff...me thinks he did a great job there!! Hell, even Ian produced some SECTION 25...so does that make them production hoars?

Bit confused now...do I even want to see what they've become now ? Let's say, theoretically, they play somewhere in the summer/ autumn, it'll surely be far from me and cost me an awful lot of money/ effort. Will what I'll see simply ruin my idea of New Order ? Am I too late ?

Come on guys, they been at it since since 1977. This is longer than most bands. Judging by the past few tours since they reformed, Barney seems to be enjoying himself live. And I will be shouting "NEW ORDER NEW ORDER NEW ORDER" and singing along with Blue Monday when they play it. Even Rock the Shack. 1984 was 20 years ago. Clock aint going backwards but I bet Barney knows when to give it up.

Originally posted by Julijana Zitnjak Bit confused now...do I even want to see what they've become now ? Let's say, theoretically, they play somewhere in the summer/ autumn, it'll surely be far from me and cost me an awful lot of money/ effort. Will what I'll see simply ruin my idea of New Order ? Am I too late ?

It's always worth it, it is a magical experience never to be forgotten, even these days. Some of us just get a bit blase about it all at times, having been used to different sets every night and smaller venues. The buzz you get when they come on stage is still as good as ever.

Barney did this and Barney did that. I thought the question was specifically present-tense. I don't think the new material is as relevant or cutting edge as it was even with Republic.

New Order has gone from Eerie, Haunting, and creative to formulatic and 'plucky'.

Originally posted by Low-Life Any good at what ?As a singer, his voice has improved with age and experience. Probably most important was the discovery that they could write songs in keys that suited his voice, rather than sticking to keys that didn't use black notes as they had with JD and early NO.As a lyricist, Barney is capable of flashes of brilliant insight and simple yet effective structure. He is also capable of absolute garbage. The quality control button sometimes gets stuck ! Let's just be grateful that the live lyrics don't get onto the record, as your lovely Savile sleeves would suffer from Tipper Gore's little stickers.As a guitarist, he's probably a lot more competent than he ever allows himself to seem - all the songs are structured in a way that affords him minimal live work. Some of the JD stuff showed a theoretical understanding (the blues E scale in NDF came straight from a book), but there has been little straying from the basic use of barre chords.As a complete songwriter, he is one of the most innovative and unheralded writers of the last 25 years. Never forget that Barney is the melody man, the provider of most of your favourite tunes. Hooky and Steve have their own roles in the creation of a New Order/Joy Division song, in terms of format, patterns etc, but Barney has been the main tune writer. Some of the stuff is entirely his own work - Temptation for example. Take a look at some of the complicated arrangements on Electronic to hear what he can do - the majority of that album was written by Barney as solo during 1989 before hooking up with Johnny Marr.In a nutshell, he is a genius songwriter and producer, with a real talent for sound creation and development.

Amen to that! You've hit the nail right on the head.

Why the f**k are we debating this? What's the reason we are all on this site?

Originally posted by Justin Lazic Why the f**k are we debating this? What's the reason we are all on this site?

To complete the live recording collection. You ?

I still cant get over this commonly held belief that Bernard is a genius. Not that I neccessarily disagree with it. I just wonder where the hell did this genius come from.

A New Order website that is slating Barney!!!! Do some of you dickheads buy the records/cd's etc just to listen to pick fault with Barney as what other reason can you give. The bloke is a legend and if you don't like him fuck off somewhere else you bunch of twats.

Just had a pint of Boddingtons to calm me down, but do you see my point, how can you be a New Order fan and slate Barney, its like saying The Beatles would have been even better if John Lennon was'nt involved!!

Originally posted by Low-Life > Originally posted by Justin Lazic> Why the f**k are we debating this? What's the reason we are all on this site?

To complete the live recording collection. You ?

If it wasn't for Bernard's musical skills we wouldn't have a live recording collection would we? So I think we're mostly all here for the same reason except those who, so accurately outlined by Mr. Gradi, should grow eyes and realize that neworderonline.com comprises over 2500 registered fans of the band and he who pushes ideas about slagging one of them off makes himself look like a lost f**kwit.

To the below poster, would you prefair it if NO were considered "musical greats of the last century" like pink floyd or some heavy, serious band? NO are a pop band, more than that, they are a great pop band // All of these things make New Order into a sideshow Vegas act instead of the respected band they should be after all these years // Its nice to see barney jumping about and enjoying himself. It makes me want to jump about and enjoy myself. Id hate to see NO regress up their own arses, take themselves so serious that they wont ssay c**t on stage, and top q or uncut's"top bands of the 20th century". Just cause he doesnt act like a genius doesnt mean he hasnt cowritten some of the best songs ever.