Brotherhood of mud...?

I know this topic has been covered a while back, but spare me the topic trawl please!! (search function would be nice *ahem*!! ;) )

Can anyone tell me what, exactly is the reason for the "muddyness" of the Brotherhood album - i mean 1986 wasnt exactly prehistoric in the days of production techniques yet it sounds muted,devoid of any "high-end" for some reason.

Is it really down to the equipment used in production, cheap recording techniques or something else totally ??

They did it on purpose... don't you think?

I complained about the muddiness of Brotherhood a while ago, but I don't think anybody identified reasons or explanations. I agree it's a pretty large shortcoming, though.

Depeche Mode's Black Celebration album suffers the same problem, and it was released the same year...

Depeche Mode's Black Celebration is a superb album, however, the recording quality is disgraceful. I got a copy on vinyl the day it was released and couldn't believe the filthy 'muddy' soundscape.

Brotherhood on the other hand, is superb, it has brightness, bass and mid range. The CD version highlights this full spectrum better than the vinyl, although the record is still good.

Believe me when I say I am a total sound level freak-o-zoid and cannont fathom the BrotherMonkey complaints. The 'worst' NO track for 'mud' is 'Murder'.

I'm with the Huntsmule on this one guys, I don't get this muddiness stuff at all. The LP sounds best to me, though technically Hunts it's not possible for a cd to outdo an LP given that cd has a bottleneck at around 16hz, thus limiting the top end badly. No guys, it must be your equipment that's to blame.

Could be a trend or something..'The Next Big Thing for '86: Spotty Production!'...I can't really tell any mudiness on my copy, though Wierdo occassionally messes up. Are we talking vinyl or cd?

I was listening to Brotherhood on cd last night alongside RTP,Grrready & Republique and on a cd playlist mixed with these others it just sounded like someones turned down all the treble and "brightness"

strange but true..

Moon Beast vinyl outruns CD at every hurdle - agreed. CD is shit in comparison, however, most people will rely on a record player obtained in the region of £12.99 or $11 US dollops... which equals horse shit - like dragging a rake over sawdust. Thus, for most people, a CD will sound more glorious... which is why I mentioned it.

SL 1210 or beyond to hear quality.

Okay daddy'o.

Are we cool?

Maybe it's just that Bro'hood is their least electronic-oriented LP (other than GR). The Rolling Stone Record guide calls it their return to the guitar styles of Joy Division (don't know if I'd agree with them there) and their strongest set of songs. There's some links with their techno stuff, obviously in the case of BLT, but it's not quite as dancable, I guess

Originally posted by Inta Don I was listening to Brotherhood on cd last night alongside RTP,Grrready & Republique and on a cd playlist mixed with these others it just sounded like someones turned down all the treble and "brightness" strange but true..

No... no, no, no, no no.

This doesn't make sense. I've just bought BrotherMonkey on CD about 5 months ago and it was fucking mega... as bright as Getting Things Ready, which is oddly quite dull sounding (around the mid-range and top end). Me thinks some spurious replication houses have been knocking copies off through shit equipment.

So many people can't be so contradictory about this matter... I say the reproduction has to have varied between us all.

I am happy that I was one of the lucky ones... like Muffy, however, I bought mine. ;)

Well, undoubtedly my equipment is not what it might be, but as Inta Don observed, when I listen to Brotherhood on CD before and after other NO things (including PCL and Low-Life) it has a distinctly different sound quality for which "muddiness" is the word that most readily comes to mind.

Originally posted by Huntsman Moon Beast vinyl outruns CD at every hurdle - agreed. CD is shit in comparison, however, most people will rely on a record player obtained in the region of £12.99 or $11 US dollops... which equals horse shit - like dragging a rake over sawdust. Thus, for most people, a CD will sound more glorious... which is why I mentioned it.SL 1210 or beyond to hear quality.Okay daddy'o.Are we cool?

The same applies to cd players Hunts, some are capable of greatness, most are crap. As for the SL 1210, is'nt that a DJ deck by Technics?? I'd be shocked if that's what your listening to your vinyl on Baby!

Originally posted by Huntsman > Originally posted by Inta Don> I was listening to Brotherhood on cd last night alongside RTP,Grrready & Republique and on a cd playlist mixed with these others it just sounded like someones turned down all the treble and "brightness" > > strange but true..

No... no, no, no, no no.

This doesn't make sense. I've just bought BrotherMonkey on CD about 5 months ago and it was fucking mega... as bright as Getting Things Ready, which is oddly quite dull sounding (around the mid-range and top end). Me thinks some spurious replication houses have been knocking copies off through shit equipment.

So many people can't be so contradictory about this matter... I say the reproduction has to have varied between us all.

I am happy that I was one of the lucky ones... like Muffy, however, I bought mine. ;)

Damn and curse H M fuckin' V and that pesky dog mascot buyin in moody copies of my most revered NO album - i hope i aint been sold a duffer :(

Brotherhood swap anyone ?? pristine condition limited edition "mud" effect CD on offer in exchange for thoroughly cleansed hosed down version. ;)

Originally posted by Huntsman

I am happy that I was one of the lucky ones... like Muffy, however, I bought mine. ;)

OI!! The only thing I take without handing over the correct change are the hearts and minds of young maidens!! I may be a bit of a rascal, but not that kind!

Well, I don't recall exactly where I bought my CD of Brotherhood, but it was definitely in a regular store, cellophane-wrapped.

Originally posted by Muffy > Originally posted by Huntsman> > I am happy that I was one of the lucky ones... like Muffy, however, I bought mine. ;) > >

OI!! The only thing I take without handing over the correct change are the hearts and minds of young maidens!! I may be a bit of a rascal, but not that kind!

You let them keep the change then I take it Muffster?

Originally posted by Muffy > Originally posted by Huntsman> > I am happy that I was one of the lucky ones... like Muffy, however, I bought mine. ;) > >

OI!! The only thing I take without handing over the correct change are the hearts and minds of young maidens!! I may be a bit of a rascal, but not that kind!

ScruffBoxer if I can't have a dig at you for being a highwaymale then I'm already dead.

SL 1210's are now DJ decks but in their first incarnation they were highly rated. The fact that you could rotate them the wrong way catapulted them into their current fame as a Dinner Jacket decks of some repute by the kids.

I'm a vinyl cat whistler, an untold hoarder of black pastic... when I bury myself I'm going to put on my gravy stone...

Hunts, he collected dust on his plastic, and now he lives beneath the earth... collecting dust with the help of worms and moles that can see in the dark.

Originally posted by Seb Briggs

You let them keep the change then I take it Muffster?

No snake, I give them a full refund!

Originally posted by Huntsman

SL 1210's are now DJ decks but in their first incarnation they were highly rated. The fact that you could rotate them the wrong way catapulted them into their current fame as a Dinner Jacket decks of some repute by the kids.

Yes Hunts, a dj pal of mine swears by the fuckers. They're great for getting a groove on but a bit shy in the treble department if it's detail you seek.

Originally posted by Muffy > Originally posted by Seb Briggs> > You let them keep the change then I take it Muffster?>

No snake, I give them a full refund!

Does 12p buy a lot up your way then?

It's not the turntable (though I have 2 of the 1200's for the extended Thieves Like Us megamix!) but the NEEDLE that you use. If you go to a good store (J&S Phonograph Supplies in Seattle) and get help picking out a cartridge/stylus with good frequency range, you're set. It is NOT the turntable that makes the sound but the NEEDLE on the Table. You need to spend at least $45 to get something decent. The 1200 series are sold without stylus' so you get to choose for yourself what your system sounds like. I have Ortofon Concords on mine but they don't have the best audio output (tracking is great though).

oh, yeah, by the way, Brotherhood sounds great at my place on CD and Vinyl. I admit i've never done a soundcheck with other neworder albums to see how it rated. Maybe you guys who hear mud should by an equalizer for the home system to manually boost the high end.

Originally posted by Brian Geoghagan oh, yeah, by the way, Brotherhood sounds great at my place on CD and Vinyl. I admit i've never done a soundcheck with other neworder albums to see how it rated. Maybe you guys who hear mud should by an equalizer for the home system to manually boost the high end.

That's not strictly true Brian. Although the cartridge is a major factor, the arm, the motor, the platter, and the isolation are all equally major factors, oh yeah, and the interconnect too. You could put the best cartridge in the world on a cheap turntable and I can assure you it will still sound like shit!

Originally posted by Brian Geoghagan oh, yeah, by the way, Brotherhood sounds great at my place on CD and Vinyl. I admit i've never done a soundcheck with other neworder albums to see how it rated. Maybe you guys who hear mud should by an equalizer for the home system to manually boost the high end.

An equalizer!! Bloody hell, no way man!! The sound should always be pure from the source, the amp should'nt even have balance controls on it, never mind bass and treble. Shug, send all eqalizers to room 101 and bin them, FOREVER!

But Muffy, the purpose of an equalizer is to shape the sound to your liking. If you don't hear enough treble in a recording, boost the treble. It works. Try it. You are right about the turntables. I was simplifying the matter but the 1200's do sound great when paired with a good cartridge/stylus. What do you use to spin discs of dusty vinyl? I've seen some really sweet players (the free poster with GrandRoyal magazine showed many interesting varieties) but the Technics are standard issue when mixing records.

Fucking great this is turn-tabling into war of the worlds.

Scruff I nearly bought an Arcam Alpha amp some years ago after some little dog egg tried to convince me that I didn't need bass and the trebloid function. All the unit had was power on (which doubled for power off). Lucky for me I told him to stick it up his sphincter and opted for a belter which allowed me to raise the top end when the vibes were smothered on certain hit records.

I accept that a flat setting should give you the necessary results and that tweaking someones studio sound is akin to fucking a man's woman... but when all said and done you'll have to cart me off to the funny farm if my bass and treble ginormous knobs of joy were removed from the earth.

Big Brian G has a point... although I find the traditional graphic equalizer somewhat ott in a world where bass and treble can fettle any shit recording i.e. any Black Head Celebration by the Modular Fashion Rats.

No Balance control! Bloody Hell! How would i enjoy instrumental Beatles hits if there was no balance control? Artists intentionally mix their music to have different sounds coming from different channels (neworder do this quite well) and to lose the ability to focus on one channel would be a mistake.

Originally posted by Seb Briggs > Originally posted by Muffy > > > > Originally posted by Seb Briggs> > > > You let them keep the change then I take it Muffster?> > >

No snake, I give them a full refund!

Does 12p buy a lot up your way then?

Yep! You'd be surprised how far 12p goes up here, but value for money is always garaunteed!

I once visited Scotland and was able to purchase several 'downtown hookers' for 11 pence... which left ample for a bag of salty chips to round of what was, it must be said, a beautiful evening.

It was only the next morning that I felt a bit 'under the weather' as I could not for the life of me scrub them damn stains out of me best briefs... which to this day remind me of that very evening where I purchased 2 'street girls' for only 11pence... and was capable of obtaining salted chips with the leftover penny... which to this day still feels like money well spent.

Listen chaps, I believe the best way to listen to music is with a revealing source. In my case a Linn turntable and a Marantz CD17 KI signature cd player. Input them to a 'staight line' amp, (Cyrus Pre & Power in this case), output to revealing speakers, Tannoy P80's. Linn interconnects and speaker cable, and bobs yer aunty with balls. Everything on the disc will be revealed, as it was meant to be, for sure. As for the Beatles instrumentals, buy the mono vinyl if you want to hear it as intended, the pseudo stereo cd re-releases are crap!

Originally posted by Huntsman I once visited Scotland and was able to purchase several 'downtown hookers' for 11 pence... which left ample for a bag of salty chips to round of what was, it must be said, a beautiful evening.It was only the next morning that I felt a bit 'under the weather' as I could not for the life of me scrub them damn stains out of me best briefs... which to this day remind me of that very evening where I purchased 2 'street girls' for only 11pence... and was capable of obtaining salted chips with the leftover penny... which to this day still feels like money well spent.

Heavens Hunts, that sounds like a typical Saturday night out for the Mufftickler, cept last weekend I ventured through to Edinburgh where my 12p bought me the company of 12 charming young 'ladies of the night'. And still enough for me fast black home the very next day! But not a chip in sight!

Hey Muffy, this is fun. you could get to 1000 today if we keep going in circles about turntalbes. it sounds like you have a pretty good set up at your place. I like to play with the sound to see what i can get. That's where you and I are differing here. You are a purist. "This is how it should sound, according to the artist who made the recording" and I like to fuck with the sound until it pleases me. Sometimes i adjust the balance all the way to the left so only the speakers in my kitchen and bathroom play. Sometimes i like to boost the low end and cut the highs (when listening to Global Chillage by Irrisistable Force) and sometimes i like to turn on my effects processor and get wiggy with the Theives Like Us instrumental. It's an audio amuzement park in my place someday's. You should stop by for tea. I have Tetley and Earl Grey (and some hippie tea for chilling out!) do you take cream and sugar?

No wait, let me guess. You like your tea straight just like nature intended. No gloss, no fuss, just the pure brewed tea. Right?

Originally posted by Brian Geoghagan No wait, let me guess. You like your tea straight just like nature intended. No gloss, no fuss, just the pure brewed tea. Right?

Yes, you're right Brian. Each to his own. I like my tea sweet but not too milky, not such a purist when it comes to tea! I like lots of oil on my weed though, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

I think we can work through our relationship problems over a cup of tetley, a spliff, and Brotherhood on the decks. I would secretly adjust the treble to ensure your enjoyment but I won't add milk to your tea.

OK, back to the original subject. While trying to finalize my top two last night, I listened to about the first three tracks from Brotherhood, as well as many from PCL, Low-Life, and Substance.

I will say it again: there is something seriously wrong with the sound on Brotherhood. Perhaps muddiness is not the right word. Maybe mushiness is more like it. There is a very disturbing lack of separation or distinctness between the various sound elements: vocals, drums, guitar, bass, etc. It's like they've all been mixed together in a large bowl and then poured through a straw. Another word for it might be claustrophobic.

With the opening track Paradise and even the second track Weirdo being so jangly and up-tempo its quite evident that theres something not quite right somewhere along the line....

However some people obviously appear not to have experienced this phenomena with their copies of the hood. I'll endeavour to mp3 the first track off my cd and if it retains its essential elements as discussed i'll post it up on a link for analysis.

I think we may have misled people by calling it muddiness. If that word indicates lack of range, as Muffy suggests, that isn't really the problem. It is hard to understand how others don't experience this.

I've listened to Brother Klumpy twice today, one time through the speakers and one time with the cans on and still I remain confused by the question of bad sound. I can only surmise that some rogue record company tosspot employed an el-cheapo mastering plant to produce a run of the album and they cocked it up big time. Maybe the best way to research this would be to swap copies, so Patsy, as all round sensible guy of the forum, remind us once again please of this zit on the good face of the Brother in the New Year and i'll despatch to you what I believe to be a good copy of the album and maybe we can get to the bottom of this once and for all.

Originally posted by Shug The only thing that pisses me off about the sound is when you do a compilation from the albums - and the sound quality of everything else is more polished - so you go from a clear loud sounding track such as Vanishing Point - then the quality and noise goes down when listening to As It Is ... pisses me off a bit at work because of the sound of machinery makes it harder to hear the Brotherhood tracks

Again Shugster, no such probs for me. I have a compilation of my own which starts off with As It Is and Broken Promise and the levels are fine. The only complaint I have of sound levels on any Order album is that Low-Life is mastered too quiet, if memory serves me it's a full 5db below the rest, and that's a lot!

Originally posted by Muffy I've listened to Brother Klumpy twice today, one time through the speakers and one time with the cans on and still I remain confused by the question of bad sound. I can only surmise that some rogue record company tosspot employed an el-cheapo mastering plant to produce a run of the album and they cocked it up big time. Maybe the best way to research this would be to swap copies, so Patsy, as all round sensible guy of the forum, remind us once again please of this zit on the good face of the Brother in the New Year and i'll despatch to you what I believe to be a good copy of the album and maybe we can get to the bottom of this once and for all.

Well, Muffy, that sounds like a sensible procedure although involving a burden on you. But if you're willing, sure.

Let's do it Patrick, it's research, we may be eligible for a government grant. Or even a tax deduction for expenses in the name of science!

I'm working on a couple of sponsorship deals for this at the moment... I'll keep you informed. (Nike showed interest at around 3pm but backed out... with any luck the Colonel KFC himself might support it).

I remain fixed on this:

that a) Both Muffin the Mucus and I have superb copies of Busty Bloopers b) that others such as Pastie have dog eggs of ill repute.

The aformentioned trans-atlantic BrotherBusty swap is the only way to determine who is calling the kettle black.

May the best male win.

Pringles on the phone.... I'll be back shortly.

Originally posted by Muffy Let's do it Patrick, it's research, we may be eligible for a government grant. Or even a tax deduction for expenses in the name of science!

I'll be happy to lend my ears in the name of science, Muffy, such as they are.

Originally posted by Huntsman I'm working on a couple of sponsorship deals for this at the moment... I'll keep you informed. (Nike showed interest at around 3pm but backed out... with any luck the Colonel KFC himself might support it).I remain fixed on this:thata) Both Muffin the Mucus and I have superb copies of Busty Bloopersb) that others such as Pastie have dog eggs of ill repute.The aformentioned trans-atlantic BrotherBusty swap is the only way to determine who is calling the kettle black.May the best male win.

Keep, in mind, Huntsy, it is always possible I have lousy hearing, but nonetheless I'm a willing volunteer.

Originally posted by Patrick > Originally posted by Muffy > Let's do it Patrick, it's research, we may be eligible for a government grant. Or even a tax deduction for expenses in the name of science!

I'll be happy to lend my ears in the name of science, Muffy, such as they are.

Ok Patsy, after the New Year hols are out of the way let's get it on.

My ears are at the ready, Muff-man.

If I may go back to the original subject; I think the reason Brotherhood sounds muddy is the way the drums sound on side one (the 'guitar' songs). It's like Stephen is using cardboard boxes :) On side two the sound is better I think.

what like a hollow "dead" sound ?

playlist it next to something like Regret, Crystal or even something older like Shellshock and the difference is evident (well on my version anyhow)

Theres really no excuse especially when the opening track actually sounds better on my 316dvd!!!!

Perhaps it's the right English word, but drums sound 'flat', no 'body'. On LL (especially in Love Vigilantes and Sunrise) the drums sound much clearer. So I think it is a production issue. I agree that Regret and later stuff have a better sound quality, but most music from the nineties sounds better (technically wise) than music from the eighties. The NO songs with drum computer (like Shellshock) have always had better sound quality.

Hey guys, have you tried EQing? Perhaps take a (E)Qtip to your ear...

....i've had the devil round for tea!

Just one more observation after listening to large chunks of PCL and Low Life and all of Brotherhood, to me it seems now that the largest part of the problem that I'm hearing now on Brotherhood relates to the mixing of the vocals; they sound buried, somehow. I remember when Huntsy said a while ago that he sang along to Brotherhood, my response was how can you sing along when you can't hear the words.

I remember reading at the time that NO used analogue equipment to record the album to deliberately get that sound... I also remember at the time thinking this was quite strange for a `dance' band... but I didn't know NO that well back then...