bring back the old order!

lets hope they bring out a new lp pretty sharpish and that stephens contribution will be greater than it is on the WFTSC.

someone needs to tell barney that new order is not 80% him and 20% hooky.

it is 25% barney, 25% hooky, 25% stephen and 25% gillian.

also, we dont need phils laddish guitar rock wank polluting new order, if he wants to hang around, fine he can go and make the tea while the real band write and play on the records.

rant over.

Is there an echo in here?

it is 25% barney, 25% hooky, 25% stephen and 25% gillian

Gillian is still in for 25 percent? Is that royalties or pitching in for gas money?

I'm sorry, I was told there would be no math.

new order was always greater than the sum of its parts. they were never like the beatles where every song was written by an individual.

the problem now is that two of the parts have gone awol.

phil is worse than a non-factor he is making the "new" new order sound britpop. as i said it would be better if he just sat around making cups of tea.

as far as im concerned Technique was the last legitimate New Order release this latest debacle is just a complete travesty. Republic was written by Steve and Gillian alone more or less and suffered for it. Get Ready had limited input from Steve and almost nothing (Someone Like You excepted) by Gillian.

LE Roberts wrote:

it is 25% barney, 25% hooky, 25% stephen and 25% gillian

Gillian is still in for 25 percent? Is that royalties or pitching in for gas money?

I'm sorry, I was told there would be no math.

you stupid man, new order exist only in that format - steve, gillian, barney and hooky playing and equal role. any other lineup is simply a non-starter for serious fans. in fact i am shocked at how some so called fans (you, for example) have accepted this new setup without complaint.

Well, the New Order you want no longer exists. If you don't like their new material, fine - don't buy it. But there's no real sense in complaining, because it won't bring them back.

I disagree. Get ready was a top notch album, absolutly love it. The return to joy Division was as old order as you can get, I can almost here Ian in my head as I listen to Get Ready. WFTSC took me awhile to enjoy. At first it was great, then the shock left. But after a hundred times Phil really sounds like a Sumner/Marr mix, which is nice. I can't wait to see how he plays "his" songs on stage. the new album is old order in a way, just listen to the beatle esque simplistic beauty. And the masterful layering, and you'll see. Gillian may be gone, but New Order is as good as ever.

Robert Monday wrote: Gillian may be gone, but New Order is as good as ever.

that last sentence shows you how laughably out of touch with reality most fans here are.

to compare the new stuff to albums of the quality of low-life and technique where i dont care what anyone says, everyone pulled their weight to make the greatest music of the era, is evidence of your short-sightedness

But it's not being short-sighted to wish for them to replicate Low-life and Techique ad infinitum? Just get over it already, paul paul.

Jim Ferguson wrote: But it's not being short-sighted to wish for them to replicate Low-life and Techique ad infinitum? Just get over it already, paul paul.

erm instead of taking what i said completely out of context, why dont you read? the quote i replied to claimed that this version of new order was better than ever. naturally i responded to this laughable statement by referring to low-life and technique, real ensemble efforts.

i think the band should change their name to something else, like they did when ian died.

in fact i am shocked at how some so called fans (you, for example) have accepted this new setup without complaint.

I will take to the streets of my city tonight to protest NO's current membership. The streets will be lighted only by the glowing in my heart. You're right - we should stop this atrocity ASAP.

Shouldn't someone with such a jerkoff name as Paul Paul stick to critiquing Duran Duran in Walla Walla?

and shouldnt some fcuking yank be listening to an american band???

Spotnick wrote:

paul paul wrote:

LE Roberts wrote:

it is 25% barney, 25% hooky, 25% stephen and 25% gillian

Gillian is still in for 25 percent? Is that royalties or pitching in for gas money?

I'm sorry, I was told there would be no math.

you stupid man, new order exist only in that format - steve, gillian, barney and hooky playing and equal role. any other lineup is simply a non-starter for serious fans. in fact i am shocked at how some so called fans (you, for example) have accepted this new setup without complaint.

What do you want them to do? Stop doing music because Steve & Gillian's daughters need special care????

acknowledge that 50% of the band has left by changing their name.

I was saying their as good as they've ever been. Lets listen to the new album with no goals, or preconceptions. Be open minded, don't compare it. And you'll find its pretty good, besides who knows what went on in the studio & writing.

Robert Monday wrote: I was saying their as good as they've ever been. Lets listen to the new album with no goals, or preconceptions. Be open minded, don't compare it. And you'll find its pretty good, besides who knows what went on in the studio & writing.

erm sorry i am not the person who rates this new effort by Barney, Hooky and some busker as being on the same level as Low-Life and Technique.

paul paul wrote: and shouldnt some fcuking yank be listening to an american band???

Gee...you sure have a narrow view of things when it comes to music, don'tcha, paul paul?:\ohwell:

Jim Ferguson wrote:

paul paul wrote: and shouldnt some fcuking yank be listening to an american band???

Gee...you sure have a narrow view of things when it comes to music, don'tcha, paul paul?:\ohwell:

i was merely using an argument with about as much weight as your own a couple of posts back.

I've said it before, so Pleas take note:

The original New Order line-up is still in place.

It is pointless to argue about who put in how much when. Different members of the Order have always made different levels of contribution.

As long as Barney's singing and learning to play the guitar, Hookey is playing bass, and Steve is playning drums; then I don't particular care who came up with what melody.

Ronald Kirsch wrote: I've said it before, so Pleas take note:

The original New Order line-up is still in place.

It is pointless to argue about who put in how much when. Different members of the Order have always made different levels of contribution.

As long as Barney's singing and learning to play the guitar, Hookey is playing bass, and Steve is playning drums; then I don't particular care who came up with what melody.

i certainly will not be taking note! that was the line-up for about 5 minutes!

also steve's contribution is that of highly paid session man at present, which was far from the case in the 80s.

therefore: 50% reduction in band contribution - more than 50% less effective records being made.

i cannot believe the docility of people on this board. you see half the group eliminated from the equation and you still view it as new order??

the current setup is about as authentic new order as electronic.

Well, we all have our opinions, so thats that. Everything changes, so we either go with the flow or get left behind. If the "new" order is no good don't listen. But I personally would rather hear New Order than almost any other band around right now. Now maybe Barney should convince Johnny Marr to join New Order too! :D

Robert Monday wrote: Now maybe Barney should convince Johnny Marr to join New Order too! :D

why do i get the feeling that you are not joking?

How exactly do you know the percentage of each member's contribution? Or are you just making assumptions based on past records?

paul paul wrote: lets hope they bring out a new lp pretty sharpish and that stephens contribution will be greater than it is on the WFTSC.

someone needs to tell barney that new order is not 80% him and 20% hooky.

it is 25% barney, 25% hooky, 25% stephen and 25% gillian.

also, we dont need phils laddish guitar rock wank polluting new order, if he wants to hang around, fine he can go and make the tea while the real band write and play on the records.

rant over.

man new order fans are starting to sound like bitter ol' depeche mode ones.. first it was vince and then alan. they all pine for the past.

Jim Ferguson wrote: How exactly do you know the percentage of each member's contribution? Or are you just making assumptions based on past records?

all right you may say its difficult to give exact percentages, but all anecdotal evidence suggests an equal contribution from each band member over the lifespan of new order up to republic.

steve's drumming is clearly one of the most important features of almost every great new order track up to and including technique.

obviously the quality fell away after republic. doh! i wonder why???

Johnny Marr is amazing, and Electronic ruled. They work well together too, so it'd be all good. Now we need Morrissey & we'll have smiths order! I wonder what New order would be like now though if Marr had joined instead of phil..

Robert Monday wrote: Johnny Marr is amazing, and Electronic ruled. They work well together too, so it'd be all good. Now we need Morrissey & we'll have smiths order! I wonder what New order would be like now though if Marr had joined instead of phil..

the fact you can make jokes about this only proves to me you are not very serious and not worth debating with.

Or maybe I'm just a chill person. New Order, Joy Division, whoever, whatever, the music is good. New Order were a mystery for a long time anyway. Just let the music speak for itself.

Well, couldn't it also be just as likely that Steven's drumming has changed with age?

Jim Ferguson wrote: Well, couldn't it also be just as likely that Steven's drumming has changed with age?

well let me see, replaced by a pre-programmed drum machine perhaps? yeah, thats what it sounds like to me........

What, you mean like in "Confusion?" Or "Fine time?" or "The perfect kiss?"

If you can't hear the increase in live drums over the last few albums, then you're not listening very hard.

Maybe they should just break up? Would we all be happy then? No. So who cares, its good music. And music thats basically better than anything else coming out these days. So we should leave them alone, we don't need to know everything about everything, & how & why they do things.

P.S. the new album is killer fun to play jam with!

Hey Paul Paul Paul Paul, look, I've got news for you: I actually think that Waiting For The Sirens Call is even better than Low Life! The shock! The horror! Much better, in fact... maybe you just need to listen to it some more times without prejudice. The best example is I Told You So. I just liked this track, but after repeated listenings through headphones it's grown a lot, I totally underrated it, it's almost a masterpiece... the rhythm, that sort of electro-banjo, the keyboard, the guitar... it's one of the most exciting songs they've ever made, as inventive and different to their other songs as Fine Time. And to be so exciting at 50 is a huge achievement, isn't it? Plus, there's plenty of other good songs, Low Life was great, but WFTSC has better productions, and overall better songs, if you take away the heavyweight Perfect Kiss from the competition, which was included as a frustrating edit on the album, anyway... Love Vigilantes? Alright, what about the title track of the new album...

Paulie, I have been a New Order fan for longer than you have been alive, so please when you disagree with an opinion, I think you should at least look at it before you dismiss it.

BTW it nearly always was Barney who wrote the lyrics, and the melodies.

Please consider that on this album,Steve's drumming is mellower, because the songs are mellower.

look paul paul (if that really is your name),we all know that you are really steve moriss,posting up on ere to get support to get your ideas recorded. mind u after the other 2s efforts im not suprised barns n hook have relegated u to making the tea.oooof get out of that baldwin.

jesus christ. a lot of you newbies are a bunch of fucking crybabies. if i didn't know better, i'd mistake you for a bunch of 40+ year old brits. if you have a problem with how new order do things, find some other band to gripe about. may i suggest the oh-so-trendy indie rock scene? all those fans ever do is bitch and complain about missed notes and being a bunch of pretentious artsy cunts. piss off.

Fuck I'm never going to see them again until they bring back Ian.

no, i'm serious. a lot of you people need to wash the sand out of your respective vaginas before you grow a pearl.

His Holiness, The Pope wrote: no, i'm serious. a lot of you people need to wash the sand out of your respective vaginas before you grow a pearl.

Never a truer word has been spoken. We should ask Spottty to put this up right under the conduct rules.
But now I must go and strangle a newbie.

I'm sure the triumvirate of 49-year-olds will be more than glad to take all of your constructive suggestions about how to run their band as soon as you eat the peanuts out of their shit.

for a while after Get Ready came out, i was bummed about the shift in sound. it felt like i had lost my best friend. after living with the NEW order, i realized i hadn't lost a friend at all, that friend changed, like i've changed and it was unfair for me to expect them to remain the same. i have a great appreciation for the new songs and almost all the songs since 2001. There are only a few songs from the last 4 years i don't like to listen to...the same cannot be said for the "holier than thou" era's: 81-85 and 86-89. Both of those era's contain many more songs that i find appalling then the current era of tunes. you either adjust your perception of who you think New Order should be or be pissed off that they don't sound like they did on LowLife or PCL. Steve had a great line in an interview when he said he had to stop the jam session because they were treading ground they've already walked; "Wait, we've done this one before...it's on Low-Life".

newOrder is dead, long live NEW Order!

its like ...2005!, New Order can't go back into a time machine... either enjoy the new album or ignore it... of course its not the same, they never will be able to go back to the way it was... as far as dinosaur bands 20 years past their prime creativity, WFTSC isnt bad at all IMO, have a little fun

Hey Paul Paul, you've even, as they say, Pissed off the Pope.

By no means am I veteran here, but I know when to keep my pie hole closed and respect the people that have put in a ton of hours to provide me and other "fucking yanks" with a great place to get news and opinion about our favorite band. Old Monkey, Steve0, Ally, Pope, Rocket, Nick, and even the guy - I believe from the UK - who emailed me the Krafty single. Great group of fans.

And I agree with so many others: Stops living in the past. Grow up and move on. So the sound has changed/evolved and they have a new member for the first time in 25 years. This isn't Little fucking River Band or the goddamn Doobie Brothers who have ads for new members every 6 months so they can tour the fucking fairs all summer.

Learn to like it or go crank some REO. It's really that simple.

Sheesh! Granted, paul paul is a little obstinate (and more than a little smug, I'd say), but it's only his opinion. The attempts to make his opinion "fact based" (the percentages and whatnot) are ludicrous, sure, but I don't think it's fair to be quite so harsh on the guy and bring it down to the level of personal insult.

paul paul wrote: lets hope they bring out a new lp pretty sharpish and that stephens contribution will be greater than it is on the WFTSC.

someone needs to tell barney that new order is not 80% him and 20% hooky.

it is 25% barney, 25% hooky, 25% stephen and 25% gillian.

also, we dont need phils laddish guitar rock wank polluting new order, if he wants to hang around, fine he can go and make the tea while the real band write and play on the records.

rant over.

i prefer electronic music to rock music and nothing irritates me more than obnoxious, guitar wielding ego maniacs who play terrible music (This means you John Squire post 90). you're absolutely off the mark with your comments about Phil-lian. his contribution to the album is understated and classy. if you think this album is primarily from the hands of Bernard, you obviously haven't been reading the press recently. bernard has stated that he'd go off to write the lyrics and when he'd come back with lyrics to 1 song written, they'd have music for 3 more ready for him. your percent breakdown shows a real lack of knowledge on how bands make music together. we all need to rant once and a while, but try and rant on something you can back up. from my count, phil has exactly 1 solo on this album. could be more, but only 1 i can pick out as obviously different to Bernard's playing style. the question is: Who's ripping off Marr? Phil-lian or Bernard?

The other point being if you're going to log onto a New Order website, slate the band and offend their fans, you'd want to make sure your arguments were water-tight.

Well Paul's are far from that.

All the great New Order songs are hallmarked by Steve's live drumming? Untrue. Try The Perfect Kiss, Blue Monday and Bizarre Love Triangle for a start. Don't come much bigger than those.

Republic was all Steve and Gillian? Wrong again. It's well-documented that it was Barney slaving over the Apple well after the others had split, trying to meld something out of the fractured recording sessions.

I'd also debate what you perceive were the levels of output from the members over the years. Have my doubts for instance, that Gill was responsible for 25% of the material on any given album.

Many of us wish that the original line-up was still in place but it's no longer realistic. So we have the choice of exploring what the new line-up is doing or jumping ship. If it's not for you, so be it, move on. We sure as hell won't miss any more miserable cases here bemoaning change and offending others.

Absolute rubbish since Technique eh? Not you is it Tony?

Ally3000 wrote:

Jim Ferguson wrote: Sheesh! Granted, paul paul is a little obstinate (and more than a little smug, I'd say), but it's only his opinion. The attempts to make his opinion "fact based" (the percentages and whatnot) are ludicrous, sure, but I don't think it's fair to be quite so harsh on the guy and bring it down to the level of personal insult.

Jim, nice of you to chuck in a lifeline for him. But I speak as I find (and very much so) in this case. His posts are riddled with arrogance and he writes as if he's New Order's judge and jury. The arrogance involved here is incredible and readily warrants labelling of a "muppet/idiot". Actually I'm adding "twat" to that as I review this thread he started in the first place. I wonder if when Barney makes a cup of tea, Hooky and Steve are actually 25% each responsible for it? Laughable, how dare he dictate the dynamic of how NO songs should be written. Even to seasoned fans how New Order write their songs is still a bit of a mystery... allocating 25% to each member is such an incredibly simpleton way of looking at it and having a misguided rant about it without the pertinent facts openly deserves ridicule.

Ally.

I fully endorse these views but would also point out this thread has been top draw entertainment.

There are 5 members of New Order, Barney, Hookey, Phill, Steve and Auto Cue.

I love the NEW New Order, predictable sets, and encores and perfect lyrics.

Just wish they could play Blue Monday twice in the set, as they did in Tiffany's in 83.

I Love Blue Monday wrote: There are 5 members of New Order, Barney, Hookey, Phill, Steve and Auto Cue.

I love the NEW New Order, predictable sets, and encores and perfect lyrics.

Just wish they could play Blue Monday twice in the set, as they did in Tiffany's in 83.

You're not even trying anymore are you, Mike? The least you could've done is mentioned that you have a bootleg of that '83 show.

depthcharge wrote: The other point being if you're going to log onto a New Order website, slate the band and offend their fans, you'd want to make sure your arguments were water-tight.

Well Paul's are far from that.

All the great New Order songs are hallmarked by Steve's live drumming? Untrue. Try The Perfect Kiss, Blue Monday and Bizarre Love Triangle for a start. Don't come much bigger than those.

Republic was all Steve and Gillian? Wrong again. It's well-documented that it was Barney slaving over the Apple well after the others had split, trying to meld something out of the fractured recording sessions.

I'd also debate what you perceive were the levels of output from the members over the years. Have my doubts for instance, that Gill was responsible for 25% of the material on any given album.

Many of us wish that the original line-up was still in place but it's no longer realistic. So we have the choice of exploring what the new line-up is doing or jumping ship. If it's not for you, so be it, move on. We sure as hell won't miss any more miserable cases here bemoaning change and offending others.

Absolute rubbish since Technique eh? Not you is it Tony?

Class response, Charge-o-meter - summed it up beautifully CTB

Pope yes I do tee hee

depthcharge wrote: The other point being if you're going to log onto a New Order website, slate the band and offend their fans, you'd want to make sure your arguments were water-tight.

Well Paul's are far from that.

All the great New Order songs are hallmarked by Steve's live drumming? Untrue. Try The Perfect Kiss, Blue Monday and Bizarre Love Triangle for a start. Don't come much bigger than those.

Republic was all Steve and Gillian? Wrong again. It's well-documented that it was Barney slaving over the Apple well after the others had split, trying to meld something out of the fractured recording sessions.

I'd also debate what you perceive were the levels of output from the members over the years. Have my doubts for instance, that Gill was responsible for 25% of the material on any given album.

Many of us wish that the original line-up was still in place but it's no longer realistic. So we have the choice of exploring what the new line-up is doing or jumping ship. If it's not for you, so be it, move on. We sure as hell won't miss any more miserable cases here bemoaning change and offending others.

Absolute rubbish since Technique eh? Not you is it Tony?

well if you can't hear great drumming on the perfect kiss then your ears need testing.....

paul paul wrote:

depthcharge wrote: The other point being if you're going to log onto a New Order website, slate the band and offend their fans, you'd want to make sure your arguments were water-tight.

Well Paul's are far from that.

All the great New Order songs are hallmarked by Steve's live drumming? Untrue. Try The Perfect Kiss, Blue Monday and Bizarre Love Triangle for a start. Don't come much bigger than those.

Republic was all Steve and Gillian? Wrong again. It's well-documented that it was Barney slaving over the Apple well after the others had split, trying to meld something out of the fractured recording sessions.

I'd also debate what you perceive were the levels of output from the members over the years. Have my doubts for instance, that Gill was responsible for 25% of the material on any given album.

Many of us wish that the original line-up was still in place but it's no longer realistic. So we have the choice of exploring what the new line-up is doing or jumping ship. If it's not for you, so be it, move on. We sure as hell won't miss any more miserable cases here bemoaning change and offending others.

Absolute rubbish since Technique eh? Not you is it Tony?

well if you can't hear great drumming on the perfect kiss then your ears need testing.....

Yeah, great pre-programmed computer drumming. Maybe you're just not "in the know," but there are no live drums on The Perfect Kiss.

Ally3000 wrote:

Jim Ferguson wrote: Sheesh! Granted, paul paul is a little obstinate (and more than a little smug, I'd say), but it's only his opinion. The attempts to make his opinion "fact based" (the percentages and whatnot) are ludicrous, sure, but I don't think it's fair to be quite so harsh on the guy and bring it down to the level of personal insult.

Jim, nice of you to chuck in a lifeline for him. But I speak as I find (and very much so) in this case. His posts are riddled with arrogance and he writes as if he's New Order's judge and jury. The arrogance involved here is incredible and readily warrants labelling of a "muppet/idiot". Actually I'm adding "twat" to that as I review this thread he started in the first place. I wonder if when Barney makes a cup of tea, Hooky and Steve are actually 25% each responsible for it? Laughable, how dare he dictate the dynamic of how NO songs should be written. Even to seasoned fans how New Order write their songs is still a bit of a mystery... allocating 25% to each member is such an incredibly simpleton way of looking at it and having a misguided rant about it without the pertinent facts openly deserves ridicule.

Ally.

ally i respect your passion and commitment to the band, you have obviously posted here for years and hold the band very close to your heart.

but i am also a fan, have been for 15 years and i cannot honestly say that the band that once defined an era are currently writing tunes on the level of true faith, perfect kiss, temptation and BLT.

take the three tunes i mentioned there for example. the drumming on all of those is a highlight, and its exactly the sort of thing thats missing from the later work.

its also my opinion that the removal of gillian and the downgrading of steve's role is exactly what barney is comfortable with at this stage of the NO's career. He obviously has problems working within a group in which everyone has an equal say otherwise he would not have shown the commitment that he did to electronic in the 90s.

im sorry you don't agree with my views ally, but thats all they are, views on the bands current output. what exaclty is wrong with judging a group of creative artists? predictably i suppose, you see the removal of half the band as being a cause for no concern. but your tirades come accross as personalised and childish. how old are you by the way?

His Holiness, The Pope wrote:

paul paul wrote:

depthcharge wrote: The other point being if you're going to log onto a New Order website, slate the band and offend their fans, you'd want to make sure your arguments were water-tight.

Well Paul's are far from that.

All the great New Order songs are hallmarked by Steve's live drumming? Untrue. Try The Perfect Kiss, Blue Monday and Bizarre Love Triangle for a start. Don't come much bigger than those.

Republic was all Steve and Gillian? Wrong again. It's well-documented that it was Barney slaving over the Apple well after the others had split, trying to meld something out of the fractured recording sessions.

I'd also debate what you perceive were the levels of output from the members over the years. Have my doubts for instance, that Gill was responsible for 25% of the material on any given album.

Many of us wish that the original line-up was still in place but it's no longer realistic. So we have the choice of exploring what the new line-up is doing or jumping ship. If it's not for you, so be it, move on. We sure as hell won't miss any more miserable cases here bemoaning change and offending others.

Absolute rubbish since Technique eh? Not you is it Tony?

well if you can't hear great drumming on the perfect kiss then your ears need testing.....

Yeah, great pre-programmed computer drumming. Maybe you're just not "in the know," but there are no live drums on The Perfect Kiss.

stop being so pedantic. the pre-programmed drums by steve (happy now??) are a vital ingredient to a great song.

Let us remember that any New Order is better than no New Order !!

It is only a few years ago that they had 'split up' and that was it. Fortunately they did not - and the greatest band in the world are playing and recording in 2005 - now that is pretty cool. I could never have imagined that 20 years ago.

As many people have already said - people / groups change and evolve. It would be pretty boring if they re-hashed Low Life or Technique every few years.

Whatever anyone thinks WFTSC / Krafty are great, alive, vibrant , pure New Order ( that is an 'ideal for living' remember - what is was always about ). I have always said that you can tell a New Order record immediately from the first few beats - I can do that with this new record - which means to me that the magic is still alive !!!!!

Steve doesn't really play live drums. On the last tour he was playing roland v-drums (except for a triggered yamaha kick). Obviously this simulates acoustic, but lets be honest, as far as I know he has always tried to be a human drum machine (he's no Keith Moon). To suggest that his lack of playing "live" drums is a significant change from 80's era new order is ridiculous. Almost every single they've had features programmed drums, and I don't think he's actually played an acoustic (i.e. non-electronic) kit since about 1985. As far as I can tell, roughly half of Low Life is programmed.

As far as WFTSC, it sounds to my ears like he's playing his v-drums on about 50% of the tunes. And he personally took credit for coming up with the riff for "Working Overtime".

If you pay attention to Steve's style, the greatest change occurred between JD/Movement and PCL. He virtually stopped playing toms. What's cool on WTSC is that he actually remembered he has a ride cymbal to use, which I don't believe I've heard since Unknown Pleasures.

In other words, this whole debate seems pretty silly. Musicians change, and each New Order album is wonderfully unique, reflecting the time and era in which it was written.

Meister Baister wrote: Steve doesn't really play live drums. On the last tour he was playing roland v-drums (except for a triggered yamaha kick). Obviously this simulates acoustic, but lets be honest, as far as I know he has always tried to be a human drum machine (he's no Keith Moon). To suggest that his lack of playing "live" drums is a significant change from 80's era new order is ridiculous. Almost every single they've had features programmed drums, and I don't think he's actually played an acoustic (i.e. non-electronic) kit since about 1985. As far as I can tell, roughly half of Low Life is programmed.

As far as WFTSC, it sounds to my ears like he's playing his v-drums on about 50% of the tunes. And he personally took credit for coming up with the riff for "Working Overtime".

If you pay attention to Steve's style, the greatest change occurred between JD/Movement and PCL. He virtually stopped playing toms. What's cool on WTSC is that he actually remembered he has a ride cymbal to use, which I don't believe I've heard since Unknown Pleasures.

In other words, this whole debate seems pretty silly. Musicians change, and each New Order album is wonderfully unique, reflecting the time and era in which it was written.

im sorry perhaps you misunderstand me. i am not quibbling over the difference between live drumming and programmed drum machines, i am saying that while before steve could be relied on to provide unique and distinctive drum patterns which were integral to making new order what they were, the new album's drum sounds are no more interesting that what you would find on any electronic album.

That's a valid point. And to some extent I agree. He certainly doesn't seem to have as much presence. But I think that relates more to the mix than a real change in his playing style. In my opinion, if you listen to the guitar oriented tracks New Order has written in the last 20 years, his style has change very little since Low Life (the tempo has slowed a bit - but that's what happens when you start approaching 50). What is different is that he is way back in the mix. Listen to Love Vigilantes - there are four big cracks on the snare and the rest of the song follows what is a very simple rhythm - but he's loud and is the foundation for everything (the same goes for the rest of Low Life). On the guitar orientated tracks on WFTSC he's playing similar rhythms, but there's alot more sound obscuring his drumming.

It would be a fair criticism to say that "new" new order tracks are over-produced. But in my opinion, almost every album today (regardless of genre) makes that mistake.

Oh how I love a good old barney!! Haven't laughed so much for yonks! Bottom line though guys, you either like the new album or you don't! Why in hells name does it have to be analysed down to who contributed what and whether Stevo's drums are programmed or not?? Strip to the waist now and fight like bitches!

Muffy wrote: Oh how I love a good old barney!! Haven't laughed so much for yonks! Bottom line though guys, you either like the new album or you don't! Why in hells name does it have to be analysed down to who contributed what and whether Stevo's drums are programmed or not?? Strip to the waist now and fight like bitches!

i think the point about the drums is a pertinent one. i question steves involvement with this record precisely because the drumming is so bland and generic, just like an electronic record in fact.

like it or not distinctive and inventive drumming was as big a part of new order as hooky's bass or barneys vocals up to and including technique. i will say that songs like true faith and the perfect kiss draw at least 25% of their power from the drumming.

now the drums on this record could have been played by anyone, you dont even notice them half the time.

what is so frustrating to me is that barney made such a big deal about wanting to go off and do solo records, and yet now he claims to have returned and all we get electronic mk2 with hooks bass running through it! personally i think the rift never really healed post-republic, and that steve has just accepted a session man role in order to keep barney happy and the whole thing going.

paul paul wrote: well if you can't hear great drumming on the perfect kiss then your ears need testing.....

Hmmm. The only actual drumming performed on the song is Hooky. The rest is programmed, probably by Steve. One of NO's finest beats for sure. So what's your point?

As I said before, you'd do worse than to check your research before you log onto these forums and start stirring shit up. Facile comments like "I'm not the only one who doesn't rate WFTSC as highly as LL or Technique" won't do you any favours. Tell us something new. If you showed some respect and looked back over recent threads you'd see that almost no one here believes this is their best album yet. You'd also see that there was plenty of disappointment over Gill's exit and Phil's formalisation into the band.

There are many fans here who've been into the band as long as you and plenty for even longer. Most are accepting that the band are not what they once were - it's a given - no one's challenging you on this. It's just that some of us have decided to move on and show interest in the newest evolution of the band. If you're not interested, log-off, pop Low-Life on repeat and go stew in your gross disappointment.

:\pimp3:

His Holiness, The Pope wrote:

paul paul wrote:

depthcharge wrote: The other point being if you're going to log onto a New Order website, slate the band and offend their fans, you'd want to make sure your arguments were water-tight.

Well Paul's are far from that.

All the great New Order songs are hallmarked by Steve's live drumming? Untrue. Try The Perfect Kiss, Blue Monday and Bizarre Love Triangle for a start. Don't come much bigger than those.

Republic was all Steve and Gillian? Wrong again. It's well-documented that it was Barney slaving over the Apple well after the others had split, trying to meld something out of the fractured recording sessions.

I'd also debate what you perceive were the levels of output from the members over the years. Have my doubts for instance, that Gill was responsible for 25% of the material on any given album.

Many of us wish that the original line-up was still in place but it's no longer realistic. So we have the choice of exploring what the new line-up is doing or jumping ship. If it's not for you, so be it, move on. We sure as hell won't miss any more miserable cases here bemoaning change and offending others.

Absolute rubbish since Technique eh? Not you is it Tony?

well if you can't hear great drumming on the perfect kiss then your ears need testing.....

Yeah, great pre-programmed computer drumming. Maybe you're just not "in the know," but there are no live drums on The Perfect Kiss.

Hooky certainly plays live drums on it.

depthcharge wrote:

paul paul wrote: well if you can't hear great drumming on the perfect kiss then your ears need testing.....

Hmmm. The only actual drumming performed on the song is Hooky. The rest is programmed, probably by Steve. One of NO's finest beats for sure. So what's your point? :\pimp3:

i have said elsewhere that my issue is not whether the drumming is live or programmed, it is simply not a factor in the current new order output. before the drumming was key, in most cases as vital as hooky's bass and barneys vocals. in some cases it was the most important thing. remove that from the equation and you are doing as much to the band as removing hooky's bass or barney's vocals. of course they lost the vocalist once before, and they changed their name....

Is this the most anal NOOL thread ever.....???

Doctor Clayhead wrote: Is this the most anal NOOL thread ever.....???

Probably, but at least it's amusing, eh?

Nothing wrong with a bit of anal every now and then. Sure Muffy will vouch for that.

:\pimp3:

you people are the reason why i need help..... DERP

Seems like paul paul signed this forum for one thread only.

But, who can ask for a band to play exactly the same music for 25 Years? They have grown older. Have differnt taste them selfs now.

We had the same discussion at The Chameleons forum when they got together and made new music a couple of years ago.

Rian wrote: Seems like paul paul signed this forum for one thread only.

But, who can ask for a band to play exactly the same music for 25 Years? They have grown older. Have differnt taste them selfs now.

We had the same discussion at The Chameleons forum when they got together and made new music a couple of years ago.

Try listening to Status Quo, they did it for far longer. Soon to appear on Corrie I say, Soon to apppear on Corrie.

James Thomas wrote:

Rian wrote: Seems like paul paul signed this forum for one thread only.

But, who can ask for a band to play exactly the same music for 25 Years? They have grown older. Have differnt taste them selfs now.

We had the same discussion at The Chameleons forum when they got together and made new music a couple of years ago.

Try listening to Status Quo, they did it for far longer. Soon to appear on Corrie I say, Soon to apppear on Corrie.

But, is that good or bad?

Nice one JOHNNY.Could be!

I'm not convinced. The arguments are a bit short, and there's been no mention of the world against (not that I have bothered reading most of the shite). I recognise the e-mail address though, so maybe.....

Is a band ever a true quartet, creativity-wise? Do you really think B, P, S, and G split up an album in 25% chunks? I seriously doubt it. At the same time, I won't argue that the post-Technique albums are anything to go crazy over.

The best years of NO are probably behind them, but I always thought that 50% of NO is better than 95% of the crap out there. From the new album, WFTSC, Krafty, and Turn are really fine tunes. And the more I listen to Get Ready, the more I really like it very much. I think GR is far superior to Republic.

I guess what I like least about the newer albums are the lyrics. I miss the nonsensical words..."Up down turnaround please don't let me hit the ground"...and songs like Love Vigilantes, but hey, I'll always have Love Vigilantes on Low-Life. And that's good enough for me.

hummm... I think Paul Paul is just trying to reach 50 posts in one thread... an ideia for his next post: "and shouldnt some fcuking third world guy be listening to an latin american band???"

yy

Paul Paul's real name is Andrew. He has double identity here on NOOL.

mike powell wrote:

mind u after the other 2s efforts im not suprised barns n hook have relegated u to making the tea.oooof get out of that baldwin.

*Hey, Superhighways is an excellent album, as good as Twisted Tenderness or Monaco... Wow, post #500 already, glad to be back...