Frames of reference...

Seeing New Order and the Gang Of Four within a week has both depressed me beyond belief (the snoozeworthy NeuOrdah show and now this appalling Jestream video) and thrilled me beyond compare (The Gang Of Four show was right up there with the great live shows I have seen in 30 years of concerts)... but it made me think about how changed our frame of reference is for this music, which used to be on the same level... I think over the years the serious listeners have just abandoned New Order leaving the hooligans, nerds, shut ins, insurance salesmen and Republicans... in 1983 you would have had the same audience for a New Order show as for a Gang Of Four show, yet these days not a single person responded to my query about people from this lot attending the Gof4 shows... and I didnt recognize any faces in common in the audiences... to my mind, New Order are still contemporaries of the great bands of 1979 (PIL, Gof4 etc), but its clear that their approach and their audience bears no resemblance whatsoever to the spirit of that period...

To those who think me a dour old man always slagging things off, I will say that I was laughing in idiot delight throughout the entire Gang Of Four show, which was totally thrilling in every way that rock music can possibly be, and more... their massive yet open sound and complete devastation of the body and mind leave nothing standing... their music may have had slightly less of an impact on me initially but I think that that is its genius... those songs leave so much space that you can occupy and it often takes years to fully understand all of the mechanisms that they describe so simply in their music and tattoo into your body with their sound...

More than laying waste to all of the 20something imitators of their sound, GillKingAllenBurham restated their themes in a way that provies support for them being considered the great band of the postpunk period... perhaps they are no longer a creative force, but when you restate your original ideas so thrillingly and they are so rich to start with, who needs a "new release"?

Ajw

Here's one who loved the Go4, especially at Coachella, unfortunately, I got sick on the way back home and had to skip their club date in Portland, I hear they were incredible there. :( BTW, wasn't that Tony Wilson who introduced them at Coachella?

They may certainly may never make an album as brilliant as Entertainment! again, even with the original lineup, but things like 5:45, At Home He's A Tourist, Guns Before Butter, To Hell With Poverty, Why Theory?, and Damaged Goods have always remained relevant in my eye, some aspects of the human condition will always be with us in these crazy days.

Don't think anything less than the original Go4 lineup would've had the same effect, not too sure they've played anything from the disappointing Hard album, though I could be wrong , on which only Gill and King were there from the original lineup. The impact of Burnham and Allen was definitely tangible live, so it was indeed a bit disappointing that the latter Gang records never equalled the first two. Have to say that I can't imagine NO in any shape or form without Hooky, Bernard or Stephen together.

Have to admit that I enjoyed the Gang more at Coachella, at a place like that I wasn't really expecting NO to dust off any 'surprises' from their catalog, but even though their sets may not compare to the glory days of the mid 80s any more, I'll still take a NO show these days over practically everything else, which is probably both an indictment of the current state and a salute to the past.

Put me down as a serious listener, a nerd and a Republican.

Also put me down as an old man who, in the spirit of '79 perhaps, finds festival shows really depressing. I'm spoiled by the memory of club shows where you pay $5 to get in and the opening band wanders around in the crowd watching the headliner with you. I went to Lollapalooza I, and that was enough to put me off festival shows forever. I don't want to share the experience --or the parking lot -- with multiple thousands.

Gang of Four suffers from 1 Great Album syndrome. No one's going to go home pissed off if they didn't play any tracks off of "Hard" or if the original drummer isn't touring.

Wire ... now there's a 1979 band.

AJ Wells wrote: Seeing New Order and the Gang Of Four within a week has both depressed me beyond belief

Ajw

never a better time to hang around in the kitchen then, and save us all from the drone of pomposity.....

Thing is, when New Order does come out with a "comeback," there's always one nugget of pure gold that makes it worthwhile: "Regret," "Crystal," etc. And they maintain some sense of perspective -- Barney's not going to go out on the yacht in the morning and sing "To Hell With Poverty" that night.

Gang of Four had, what, "Mall"? And "Hard," of course, which is tantamount to releasing the first Other Two record as a New Order album.

I think I understand the sentiment, but to me, Gang of Four has aged about as well as the Dead Kennedys.

AJ Wells wrote: Seeing New Order and the Gang Of Four within a week has both depressed me beyond belief (the snoozeworthy NeuOrdah show and now this appalling Jestream video) and thrilled me beyond compare (The Gang Of Four show was right up there with the great live shows I have seen in 30 years of concerts)... but it made me think about how changed our frame of reference is for this music, which used to be on the same level... I think over the years the serious listeners have just abandoned New Order leaving the hooligans, nerds, shut ins, insurance salesmen and Republicans... in 1983 you would have had the same audience for a New Order show as for a Gang Of Four show, yet these days not a single person responded to my query about people from this lot attending the Gof4 shows... and I didnt recognize any faces in common in the audiences... to my mind, New Order are still contemporaries of the great bands of 1979 (PIL, Gof4 etc), but its clear that their approach and their audience bears no resemblance whatsoever to the spirit of that period...

To those who think me a dour old man always slagging things off, I will say that I was laughing in idiot delight throughout the entire Gang Of Four show, which was totally thrilling in every way that rock music can possibly be, and more... their massive yet open sound and complete devastation of the body and mind leave nothing standing... their music may have had slightly less of an impact on me initially but I think that that is its genius... those songs leave so much space that you can occupy and it often takes years to fully understand all of the mechanisms that they describe so simply in their music and tattoo into your body with their sound...

More than laying waste to all of the 20something imitators of their sound, GillKingAllenBurham restated their themes in a way that provies support for them being considered the great band of the postpunk period... perhaps they are no longer a creative force, but when you restate your original ideas so thrillingly and they are so rich to start with, who needs a "new release"?

Ajw

AJ, I can recall reading your NO posts going back a long way (mid-90s alt.newsgroup I think) and always respected your contributions. However these days you are starting to come across like someone's dad, bemoaning new trends and shaking your fist at change. Making a lazy generalisation as you do regarding current NO fans is more than a little patronising as well.

Can't you accept that NO have won different fans throughout the different eras of their history? Surely it's a testament to their evolution. I wasn't old enough to attend JD or early NO gigs but was lured in by their pioneering fusing of dance and guitars in the 83-86 period. Frankly, the era when NO may have been considered post-punk contemporaries of Gang of Four or PIL is of much less interest to me. Many others on these forums were actually won over by what they heard on Republic - this seems amazing to me but hardly affords me some elitist right to diminish their status as a NO fan.

We can't have enough intelligent contribution from old school fans on these forums but can we keep it fair?

:\pimp3:

I remember alt.music.new-order...

Now that's old school!

there is STILL alt.music.new-order !

but I haven't posted there in ages since nool came on....

it does remind me though, to remind you all, there ARE other forums for new order dialogue... and i say that not to get you all pissed at me, but just to remind us all that we should be out and about right now spreading the enthusiasm, OUTSIDE our newfound and beautiful new NOOL home.... see what the other new order factions are saying, let them know about NOOL (it is odd, but some folks have not heard of it, or checked it out 4 years back but not recently, or during a server relocation, etc etc etc) -

anyway, just saying i guess that we should remember to get out for some air.... alt.music.new-order lives on, albeit diminished, as does the ceremony elist....

:)

GOF was a major influence for REM, if I'm not wrong.

For those tuning in late:

Entertainment! reissued and reviewed.

"Anyone who says it's played out is a douchebag who deserves his Medium Medium records and willful obscurity."

Gnu Odor wrote: Put me down as a serious listener, a nerd and a Republican.

Also put me down as an old man who, in the spirit of '79 perhaps, finds festival shows really depressing. I'm spoiled by the memory of club shows where you pay $5 to get in and the opening band wanders around in the crowd watching the headliner with you. I went to Lollapalooza I, and that was enough to put me off festival shows forever. I don't want to share the experience --or the parking lot -- with multiple thousands.

Gang of Four suffers from 1 Great Album syndrome. No one's going to go home pissed off if they didn't play any tracks off of "Hard" or if the original drummer isn't touring.

Wire ... now there's a 1979 band.

In the best sense of the term! ;)

Actually Gof4 had TWO great albums, Entertainment and Solid Gold... those were the ones with the original band... and yes they did get more technological and softer and more lovey with Hard, but then so did New Order around that time... anyone remember Theives Like Us? The point was that being hard only gets you so far... both New Order and Gof4 realized that it was boring to stick in one part of the spectrum and that the uncoolest thing in the world was to sing about love... the later records did go downhill, but the later Shrinkwrapped was fairly good and nothing they have done has sullied the reputation of Entertainment and Solid Gold...

And actually, I WAS screaming for Is It Love? but no luck... ;)

Ajw

Al Jarvis wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: in 1983 you would have had the same audience for a New Order show as for a Gang Of Four show, yet these days not a single person responded to my query about people from this lot attending the Gof4 shows...

AJ, how old are you now? You're late 40's, yes, so finger-in-the-air-time I'm guessing you were maybe 25 in 1983? Yet you're bemoaning the fact that NO and Go4 don't have the same audience ... today?! Surely most people of your age would've 'moved on', so to speak. Careers, kids, golf holidays, whatever. You can't surely be expecting a New Order audience to be made up of people your own age? Or are you saying that 'the kids' should also be listening to Go4? Why, exactly? Most people under the age of 40 wouldn't be aware of them. That was obvious when I saw both bands perform at Coachella last weekend.

I was a youthful and vibrant 22 in 1983 for you math majors...

And I still have friends in their 40s who love music... of course they all think I am a sucker for still following this group as they have moved onwards and upwards... and there were plenty of people of all ages at both of those shows... just none of the same ones... and if you dont think that people are aware of the Gang Of Four, then it would appear that you havent listened to any young band coming out of New York in the past five years... they are massively influential on musicians... even very young ones who werent even around when they recorded Entertainment.. its just listeners that they seem to be lacking...

Ajw

Gnu Odor wrote: Thing is, when New Order does come out with a "comeback," there's always one nugget of pure gold that makes it worthwhile: "Regret," "Crystal," etc. And they maintain some sense of perspective -- Barney's not going to go out on the yacht in the morning and sing "To Hell With Poverty" that night.

Gang of Four had, what, "Mall"? And "Hard," of course, which is tantamount to releasing the first Other Two record as a New Order album.

I think I understand the sentiment, but to me, Gang of Four has aged about as well as the Dead Kennedys.

Regarding "Hard"; see my other post regarding "going soft"... it was the most radical thing in the world in 1983... and if you dont get the difference between Jon King and Jello Biafra then... I'm not sure where to go from there... to the Kennedy's it was always "the man" holding them down and making them miserable... as with the other protest music of that time, its power fades into nothingness as the forces that oppressed it change into another form... as the saying goes, punk said "fuck you", Joy Division said "I'm fucked", which was a major improvement, but the Gof4 took it one step futher which was "I fuck myself"... if you dont get that difference then I dont know what to say...

Ajw

depthcharge wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: Seeing New Order and the Gang Of Four within a week has both depressed me beyond belief (the snoozeworthy NeuOrdah show and now this appalling Jestream video) and thrilled me beyond compare (The Gang Of Four show was right up there with the great live shows I have seen in 30 years of concerts)... but it made me think about how changed our frame of reference is for this music, which used to be on the same level... I think over the years the serious listeners have just abandoned New Order leaving the hooligans, nerds, shut ins, insurance salesmen and Republicans... in 1983 you would have had the same audience for a New Order show as for a Gang Of Four show, yet these days not a single person responded to my query about people from this lot attending the Gof4 shows... and I didnt recognize any faces in common in the audiences... to my mind, New Order are still contemporaries of the great bands of 1979 (PIL, Gof4 etc), but its clear that their approach and their audience bears no resemblance whatsoever to the spirit of that period...

To those who think me a dour old man always slagging things off, I will say that I was laughing in idiot delight throughout the entire Gang Of Four show, which was totally thrilling in every way that rock music can possibly be, and more... their massive yet open sound and complete devastation of the body and mind leave nothing standing... their music may have had slightly less of an impact on me initially but I think that that is its genius... those songs leave so much space that you can occupy and it often takes years to fully understand all of the mechanisms that they describe so simply in their music and tattoo into your body with their sound...

More than laying waste to all of the 20something imitators of their sound, GillKingAllenBurham restated their themes in a way that provies support for them being considered the great band of the postpunk period... perhaps they are no longer a creative force, but when you restate your original ideas so thrillingly and they are so rich to start with, who needs a "new release"?

Ajw

AJ, I can recall reading your NO posts going back a long way (mid-90s alt.newsgroup I think) and always respected your contributions. However these days you are starting to come across like someone's dad, bemoaning new trends and shaking your fist at change. Making a lazy generalisation as you do regarding current NO fans is more than a little patronising as well.

Can't you accept that NO have won different fans throughout the different eras of their history? Surely it's a testament to their evolution. I wasn't old enough to attend JD or early NO gigs but was lured in by their pioneering fusing of dance and guitars in the 83-86 period. Frankly, the era when NO may have been considered post-punk contemporaries of Gang of Four or PIL is of much less interest to me. Many others on these forums were actually won over by what they heard on Republic - this seems amazing to me but hardly affords me some elitist right to diminish their status as a NO fan.

We can't have enough intelligent contribution from old school fans on these forums but can we keep it fair?

:\pimp3:

But this music is born of elitism and it will always have its roots in that regardless of how soft the band gets in their music or on themselves... and regardless of how large and uninformed the audience becomes... everything about Factory and JD/NO was elitist... every single aspect... its elitism born out of having nothing and wanting everything... of wanting life to be different than it has been... to me thats idealism which is always a wonderful thing, but you can call it elitism...

All interesting minds, no matter what age, will seek out the interesting music of any period... I wasnt around for the Velvets but their records still thrill me... although I cant experience them as someone who lived that music during the time it was made could... but I know a number of younger people who are desparately interested in the Factory ethic and everything that went into that attitude... how could you not be?

I dont begrudge fans who got into the band during Republic... I love that record... that was a band growing older and having problems but still producing beauty... but I do wonder about fans who can accept this mediocre new music without question... if you can really have a thrilling experience listening to Jetstream, then who am I to rain on that parade? But we have to draw the line somewhere... I mean dont you think that people who love music that you hate are... missing something? surely there must be SOME music you hate... if not, you should find some... and soon ;)

Ajw

depthcharge wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: Seeing New Order and the Gang Of Four within a week has both depressed me beyond belief (the snoozeworthy NeuOrdah show and now this appalling Jestream video) and thrilled me beyond compare (The Gang Of Four show was right up there with the great live shows I have seen in 30 years of concerts)... but it made me think about how changed our frame of reference is for this music, which used to be on the same level... I think over the years the serious listeners have just abandoned New Order leaving the hooligans, nerds, shut ins, insurance salesmen and Republicans... in 1983 you would have had the same audience for a New Order show as for a Gang Of Four show, yet these days not a single person responded to my query about people from this lot attending the Gof4 shows... and I didnt recognize any faces in common in the audiences... to my mind, New Order are still contemporaries of the great bands of 1979 (PIL, Gof4 etc), but its clear that their approach and their audience bears no resemblance whatsoever to the spirit of that period...

To those who think me a dour old man always slagging things off, I will say that I was laughing in idiot delight throughout the entire Gang Of Four show, which was totally thrilling in every way that rock music can possibly be, and more... their massive yet open sound and complete devastation of the body and mind leave nothing standing... their music may have had slightly less of an impact on me initially but I think that that is its genius... those songs leave so much space that you can occupy and it often takes years to fully understand all of the mechanisms that they describe so simply in their music and tattoo into your body with their sound...

More than laying waste to all of the 20something imitators of their sound, GillKingAllenBurham restated their themes in a way that provies support for them being considered the great band of the postpunk period... perhaps they are no longer a creative force, but when you restate your original ideas so thrillingly and they are so rich to start with, who needs a "new release"?

Ajw

AJ, I can recall reading your NO posts going back a long way (mid-90s alt.newsgroup I think) and always respected your contributions. However these days you are starting to come across like someone's dad, bemoaning new trends and shaking your fist at change. Making a lazy generalisation as you do regarding current NO fans is more than a little patronising as well.

Can't you accept that NO have won different fans throughout the different eras of their history? Surely it's a testament to their evolution. I wasn't old enough to attend JD or early NO gigs but was lured in by their pioneering fusing of dance and guitars in the 83-86 period. Frankly, the era when NO may have been considered post-punk contemporaries of Gang of Four or PIL is of much less interest to me. Many others on these forums were actually won over by what they heard on Republic - this seems amazing to me but hardly affords me some elitist right to diminish their status as a NO fan.

We can't have enough intelligent contribution from old school fans on these forums but can we keep it fair?

:\pimp3:

Oh, and I ALWAYS came across as someones' dad didnt I? Thats not a recent development... I've always been elitist, contradictory, ill-informed, inadvisable and underfed... get to know me!!

Ajw

How to become a music journalist.

Step 1: Write a pile of wank about a band, especially one that...

a) is so new and/or underground that your "discovery" of them is a form of elitism

b) so old that you champion their "return to form" and want to lavish them with awards for being outstanding musical geniuses, but really want to seem just as hip as the young bands name-checking left and right

c) one that you think the young bands SHOULD be name-checking just because other older bands of the same bygone era are being name-checked

Example: "Their massive yet open sound and complete devastation of the body and mind leave nothing standing... their music may have had slightly less of an impact on me initially but I think that that is its genius... those songs leave so much space that you can occupy and it often takes years to fully understand all of the mechanisms that they describe so simply in their music and tattoo into your body with their sound..."

Step 2: Repeat.

Step 3: Write a book.

AJ Wells wrote: ... if you dont get that difference then I dont know what to say...

Ajw

Surely you'll think of something...

NO and GoF incomparable. NO have the God, Sumner, GoF don't. End of story

Al Jarvis wrote:

AJ Wells wrote:

Al Jarvis wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: in 1983 you would have had the same audience for a New Order show as for a Gang Of Four show, yet these days not a single person responded to my query about people from this lot attending the Gof4 shows...

AJ, how old are you now? You're late 40's, yes, so finger-in-the-air-time I'm guessing you were maybe 25 in 1983? Yet you're bemoaning the fact that NO and Go4 don't have the same audience ... today?! Surely most people of your age would've 'moved on', so to speak. Careers, kids, golf holidays, whatever. You can't surely be expecting a New Order audience to be made up of people your own age? Or are you saying that 'the kids' should also be listening to Go4? Why, exactly? Most people under the age of 40 wouldn't be aware of them. That was obvious when I saw both bands perform at Coachella last weekend.

I was a youthful and vibrant 22 in 1983 for you math majors...

Ajw

AJ, in the UK New Order had three top 10 singles in 1983 (Blue Monday, twice). So the fanbase here is entirely to what you've encountered on your [ahem] 'travels'. There is an obvious hardcore of support here for New order, people who follow them a lot more aggressively than you do and have seen them many more times than you have, and all of us are under the age of 40. In 1983, a 22 year at a New order gig might've looked a right old bastard on these shores. You might however have fitted in at a GangofFour concert around the same time, can't imagine many 'kids' were into them.

As a point of note, I was at Oakland, and you would've surely been in the absolute minority there age-wise, no? I'm 37 next week and don't recall many people older than myself, whereas I'm just a relatively median age at NO concerts over here.

Actually the audience for the New Order PCL period shows and the Gof4 Hard period shows were very similar... most were my age or older to considerably older... there must be a major difference between US audiences and UK audiences...

The Oakland show had the oldest audience I have ever seen at a pop concert... if I had to guess the median age of the folks standing in my area was mid to late 40s and a couple of 50somethings in suits... the Gof4 audience was much more diverse and included lots of young people as well as some older ones... but it was clear which show was nostalgia and which one wasnt... ;) Sort of strange for a band who is playing "new material" versus one just doing greatest hits off their first two releases... ah the wonderful perverse world of pop!

Ajw

Al Jarvis wrote:

AJ Wells wrote:

Al Jarvis wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: in 1983 you would have had the same audience for a New Order show as for a Gang Of Four show, yet these days not a single person responded to my query about people from this lot attending the Gof4 shows...

AJ, how old are you now? You're late 40's, yes, so finger-in-the-air-time I'm guessing you were maybe 25 in 1983? Yet you're bemoaning the fact that NO and Go4 don't have the same audience ... today?! Surely most people of your age would've 'moved on', so to speak. Careers, kids, golf holidays, whatever. You can't surely be expecting a New Order audience to be made up of people your own age? Or are you saying that 'the kids' should also be listening to Go4? Why, exactly? Most people under the age of 40 wouldn't be aware of them. That was obvious when I saw both bands perform at Coachella last weekend.

I was a youthful and vibrant 22 in 1983 for you math majors...

Ajw

AJ, in the UK New Order had three top 10 singles in 1983 (Blue Monday, twice). So the fanbase here is entirely to what you've encountered on your [ahem] 'travels'. There is an obvious hardcore of support here for New order, people who follow them a lot more aggressively than you do and have seen them many more times than you have, and all of us are under the age of 40. In 1983, a 22 year at a New order gig might've looked a right old bastard on these shores. You might however have fitted in at a GangofFour concert around the same time, can't imagine many 'kids' were into them.

As a point of note, I was at Oakland, and you would've surely been in the absolute minority there age-wise, no? I'm 37 next week and don't recall many people older than myself, whereas I'm just a relatively median age at NO concerts over here.

Oh and I most certainly dont count my experiences by the number of times I have had them... I was never one of those "well Ive seen them 50 times, how about you mate?" sort of geeks... I dont follow them around the country or around the world... when they come to where I am I usually see them... actually I have seen all of their shows in the SF area as well as several shows in LA and NY when I lived there... but I dont have anything invested in them other than being mildly interested in what they do primarily because of their past and my misplaced hope that they will do something interesting to continue that history...

Ajw

Al Jarvis wrote:

AJ Wells wrote: but I dont have anything invested in them other than being mildly interested in what they do primarily because of their past and my misplaced hope that they will do something interesting to continue that history...

"Mildly ... interested"?!

Google your name in googlegroups, AJ. For an individual who hasn't liked any output (bar BCD) since 1993 you don't 'alf post a lot!

I'd dread to think how much you post on G04 forums?!

using that criteria Allen, what do you make of Digital Mike...claims to not have enjoyed an single song since Movement and no live stuff since Low Life tour, yet posts 20+ times a day here. the mind boggles.

AJ Wells wrote: But this music is born of elitism and it will always have its roots in that regardless of how soft the band gets in their music or on themselves... and regardless of how large and uninformed the audience becomes... everything about Factory and JD/NO was elitist... every single aspect... its elitism born out of having nothing and wanting everything... of wanting life to be different than it has been... to me thats idealism which is always a wonderful thing, but you can call it elitism...

I dont begrudge fans who got into the band during Republic... I love that record... that was a band growing older and having problems but still producing beauty... but I do wonder about fans who can accept this mediocre new music without question... if you can really have a thrilling experience listening to Jetstream, then who am I to rain on that parade? But we have to draw the line somewhere... I mean dont you think that people who love music that you hate are... missing something? surely there must be SOME music you hate... if not, you should find some... and soon ;) Ajw

I don't equate the elistism of fans squabbling over 'who's the bigger or more serious devotee', with the idealism the spawned Factory at all really.

It's interesting that you say you don't begrudge fans who got on board through Republic and yet you're also suggesting most of the fans who remain today are essentially pretenders. So where's this magical cut-off point for true fandom? Get Ready? WFTSC?

Choice cuts from the current album like 'WFTSC' or 'Turn' frankly piss all over Republic tracks like the lamentable 'Liar' and I know I'm not flying solo in that belief. But then I'm probably just an insurance salesman or a Republican or somesuch for sticking around this long!

It's good to have the AJs of the world stoke the fires on these forums, especially when they admit their self-contradictions. All we need now is Eddie Colton to drop by and we can have ourselves a spit-roast.

:\pimp3:

NO! NOT EDDIE!

with aj and sultan and others, what the hell, has alt.music.new-order invaded nool or what? (which is of interest, just shows how classic new order is... no matter how much aj writes off new new order, he is here posting... so something matters to him... it is either a testament to the past or the present...)

and on that note, I must sadly agree with wells, in that age (ask dennis and lois... :) ) and number of concerts seen has no bearing on anything... much like number of posts means absolutely nothing.

and i agree, that new order and factory ARE essentially elitist.... which is why we always trouble ourselves, have difficulty handling their popness....

because, to me, Jetstream is classy pop, which is what new order have always been at heart. J-E-T is just an extension of the Fine Time, BLT, pop hit aspect of new order.

There is nothing embarrassing, popwise, about Jetstream. It is wellcrafted, artistic, pop bliss. Hey, YOU try writing a song like that... it ain't easy. Pop gets no respect....

it is what is at the root of a 'hit' like Love Will Tear Us Apart, (ian curtis always longed for pop success, if you believe deborah), every artist in some way wants to reach the largest, and most respected, audience they can (to maximize message exposure and ego satisfaction, no matter how 'crass' the jealous losers claim success is...).

it is why we smile at strangers... it is why as a musician you show up to a live gig and get butterflies in your stomach... cause you CARE about what other folks think of you....

if you can't admit that, you are lying to yourself...

Tales of Irony:

I just went to the iTunes music store to see if the expanded edition of Entertainment was available...but all they had was...

To Hell With Poverty 2005!

Stick that in your pipe with Blue Monday 88 and smoke it!

so on the one hand wells praises gang of four for not needing new releases, then he praises them for realising that they couldn't cope with staying with the same sound.

make your mind up! & do you really have to reply to every single poston this thread?

(now i remember whhu i stopped reading alt.music.new.order & please don't let's go wishing for eddie!)