Why are New Order So HIT and miss live?

I know its not exactly an original thread but can somebody pinpoint the reason why New Order can be fantastic live at some concerts and bumbling-bum note-schoolboy error prone at other concerts?

I dont know if its that they just dont care sometimes, have had too much substances, are hacked off with one another, hacked off with personal lives or hacked off with rubbish roadies (who cant even tune a guitar)!

Or are they only brilliant when they get paid upfront?

NO Regret wrote: I know its not exactly an original thread but can somebody pinpoint the reason why New Order can be fantastic live at some concerts and bumbling-bum note-schoolboy error prone at other concerts?

I dont know if its that they just dont care sometimes, have had too much substances, are hacked off with one another, hacked off with personal lives or hacked off with rubbish roadies (who cant even tune a guitar)!

Or are they only brilliant when they get paid upfront?

I'd always think its in the 'hacked off' area. Being too out of it has sometimes made them better ;) and not caring seems to actually help! I think, the more relaxed they are the more brilliant they are - none of us really care if the guitar isnt tuned perfect, or the mix isnt quite right, but if the band look like they aren't into it then we aren't either. If Bernard shouts the lyrics & whistles & dances all the way; while Hooky poses his heart out & tells us to f-off & Steve beats the shite out of them drums - then we'll be dancing & shouting like there's no tomorrow

Im ashamed to say that Im not a hardcore New Order gigger. Ive only seen Electronic once in 1991 and New Order once in 2002 (both excellent). But I have numerous live recordings and DVDs.

Reading 1998 is pretty sublime. So was Montreoux Jazz Fest of 1993 and Academy 1986. And they were excellent at Finsbury Park 2002 and Big Day Out. But the BBC Glastonbury 1997 CD is terrible, as was Regret live on TFI and those Canal recordings.

I would be interested to hear what people thought were the best and worst New Order gig.

I think all depends on how much you have to drink before hand, and whether the crowd are still young enough to jump up and down to Temptation etc..

Shame about the '87 BBC CD. All the sound sounds great, probably the best quality live recording, but Bernard let it down with the vocals. He was really out of it that night.

The BBC mix was crap, I think it was broadcast live or soon after and wasn't mixed at a later date, this only emphasised the bad points. Get hold of a bootleg, you'll find the sound much better, it was an excellent gig. There are better live recordings, the radio broadcast of Gmex 86 for example.

Talking about the ideal set list and the current greatest hits package, its ironic that apart from everything else that went on then, I remember being a tad disappointed after Wembley 87 that we didn't get the full on greatest hits package . I think it was their first UK gig after Substance and instead we got

Touched by the Hand of God, Ceremony, Weirdo, True Faith, Bizarre Love Triangle, Every Little Counts, Love Vigilantes, Subculture, Face Up, Temptation, The Perfect Kiss, Blue Monday, Love Will Tear Us Apart, Sister Ray

Now I could only dream of that set list but at the time I wanted (and was expecting) EGG, Procession etc and no album tracks.

Pah , they are always ace live

Jarvo sums it up pretty well.

Its about situations,memories,venues,pre-gig,company.

Remember walking out of Sheff City Hall and Bradford St Georges Hall thinking how shat they were. The next person might have had the time of their life..( Although I truly doubt that would be possible at Sheff ) ;)

Drugs

Although I'm hardly a seasoned NO gig-goer (I've only seen them twice), it was interesting to see that they were a bit flat at the Melbourne BDO, and then played a blinder 2 days later at the Metro.

Al's pretty much summed it up - but what category does the 87 Academy gig fall into (ie. the Academy vid)? I revisited this video the other day, there are some duff moments on that one - Barn appears pretty much off his face on god knows what (lot's of curved-arm pointing and gurning going on - and even a fleeting glimpse of the 'behind guitar dance' that has evolved since). However, the crowd looks appreciative, so maybe the vid doesn't do it justice. Was anyone here in attendace for this gig? CTB

Yes, it was mental. For anyone unfamiliar with Brixton Academy it has a nice slope down to the stage helping to create an atmosphere. New order were on in the middle of a mixed line-up. Whether it was that or something else but when New Order started up with TBTHOG much of the New Order crowd were towards the back, so in the following couple of minutes it was all change round at the front with quite a few frightened looking people about. After that it was crazy to the finish, thought I'd take a breather, DNE? no I won't. Best gig I've ever seen, by anyone.

Hyde Park will be my seventh time to see them live (I think...drink makes my memory hazy). I love the fact they are so unpredictable live and you never know what you'll get really or to what standard.

They're the only band I know that celebrate that sort of amateurism live; the ability to be brilliant and terrible during the same gig and sometimes the same song!

Top night: G-Mex in 88 with the whole place just going nuts, lasers, the Mondays, ACR etc. For this Londoner to see them on their home patch was brilliant and I felt priviledged.

Reading '93 was a low point because it seemed so final but they still delivered the goods, even though it would seem they loathed each other by this time.

Aint read a word the rest of you have posted, not cos I'm a twat ( tho I am ) but cos I got a blinding headache.

But I can type without looking at the accursed monitor.

they are hit and miss because they are geniuses, and genius cannot be turned on and off on command.

Also they are hit and miss because their music comes from within. Meaning that when they are enjoying it they rule, and when things go badly or they are just not in the mood, they are gonna blow goats. Classical types and pop puppets don't have that problem because the music is not theirs, or not from WITHIN them.

Isnt the reason why theyre a bit hit and miss live, something to do with the Punk attitude of 'anybody can have a go" Ive seen NO order loads of times, with the later gigs being a bit too polished. I preferred them when they sounded a bit rougher around the edges. But these days ticket prices arent cheap, so perhaps some sort of quality control comes into it.

The classical bods/pop puppets idea is interesting. I'd never really considered that much before. Classical music makes big demands on technique and virtuosity whereas pop has always favoured the opposite (a bloke with a few chords and a tune etc).

It could be that they've been playing together for so long now that they've all tightened up/polished up by some sort of natural osmosis, although I long for them to fcuk up big time like in the past. They make a totally sublime racket and that used to be enhanced live by the premise that it frequently could and often did go badly wrong with something breaking down, Bernard or someone out of tune/time and him forgetting the words.

Pop's become greatly polished of late. People used to talk about the Pet Shop Boys and New Order in the same breath but can you ever imagine the PSBs fcucking up badly on-stage regularly?

And of course likewise, or conversely, or whatever, there are gigs from way back when where you could almost mistake them for competeant :)

As for less polished....You a member on uknova....I'll be posting a slightlynarrow sampler there for a laugh, I WAS going to put some real good stuff in it, but now I feel the urge for an insane live track or two.

Mr. Jarvis, that link in your signature is the greatest hyperlink of all time.

And Mr. Campbell, I rush over to UKNova and sign up for the promise of hot, live SlightlyNarrow action, and all I find is fucking Gardeners' World Live?

Prince Charles joins Monty in the show's Grow It area to discuss his passion for growing organically...

I aint put it there yet :)

, and WTF is wrong with Gardener's world?

Gonna pack the mp3's up now actually.

remember kids, it's taken them this long to sound as good as they du on the Phil C shows. generally i belive all their live shows are miss. pre-getready shows were perfomed in the "i don't care/who gives a.../we know we are good in the studio, so why bother live attitude". you can tell Barney & co. care a little more by adding teleprompter and practicing more during the getready & wftsc shows... but sometimes the "i don't care " mode creeps in. just my silly opinion though... which means nothing.

Adam R wrote: Shame about the '87 BBC CD. All the sound sounds great, probably the best quality live recording, but Bernard let it down with the vocals. He was really out of it that night.

I love Barney's vocals at that gig. I think the way he shouts and moans the lyrics and whoops all the time adds to it and paints a very vivid picture of what the gig looked like (obviously I wasn't there). I think he injects a lot of energy into the tracks. I think he's particularly spectacular on BLT and TPK. But that's just my opinion - many people hate Barney's whooping and zaniness.

Weird then that that particular performance is regarded as one of their more competent gigs! It's the total insanity of Sister Ray at the end that wipes me out but it's a top gig for all the reasons we've detailed here.

The 'so fucking what?' attitude early on masked a kind-of determination to plough on regardless of fuck-ups, technical problems, forgetting the words, grief from the crowd etc. I think we've got to the point we were expect them both to be brilliant and terrible at the same time, although there are still people out there who have seen them live in the past and are PUT OUT that they've been wretched/brilliant the night they saw them, expecting them to be polished like every other bloody band!!

To be fair the atmosphere at New Order gigs is totally different in my experience if your at the front than if your further back. The more casual listeners begin from about a 1/4 way back from the front and generally just stand around with drink in hand occasionally nodding in appreciaton, I noticed this the most when i was unfortunate enough to be upstairs at Brixton Academy for one night of the 2001 gig looking down on the crowd below.

Upstairs was even worse, people didnt even get out of their seats until half way through the gig!

Which newOrder would show? I always loved the unpredictability factor that proved central to their charm. Even on an 'off' night you could still take away a memory or two to keep a smile raised. The Guildhall Riots in Preston - my arse dropped thrice. The tiny but loony following The Boys From Greece took to The Town & Country Club in '86 - Bernard being on the receiving end of at least half a dozen thrown pints during Ceremony. The very pish poor PA for Big World Cafe C4; still walking proud wearing a plush G-Mex t-shirt in Brixton Acad. knowing that Technique had just gone Top of the Pops OR Face Up nearly saving Wembley '87 from the jaws of defeat.

Still my favourite night out by a mile.

Still my favourite band.

what odds on getting 'Sunrise' as dusk falls upon Hyde Park ? Could someone post up the James Brown review of G-Mex '88 (Nme) ? Cheers.

"read my fookin' lips you shower of cockney wankers, move back"

One word, already said; Drugs.

Al Jarvis wrote: I think you'll have to give examples of where you think they've been a HIT, or a MISS, cos one person's decent gig is always gonna be a complete mare for another.

Tracklisting would help for me: if we got Age of Consent, Ceremony and EGG anywhere next weekend then I'm a happy man. I am so easily bought!

One gig I remember them being slated at in the 80's was the 'moody' Oxford Apollo gig in 86 (though I bet a lot of people would kill for a gig like that these days). The reviews of that gig were awful, yet I was sat up in the front of the circle (I had a dislocated shoulder) and when they kicked in 'Ceremony' I swear it looked like a fcuking riot was going on below me in the stalls. The whole place went up, just a surging sea of bodies. Fantastic just sitting watching that, yet so strange to look back on reviews of that one saying how awful New Order were on that occasion. I thought they were sublime!

Oxford really is a classic example of this. I thought this was a tremendous performance at the time, the sound was distorting on the vocals down the front so you couldn't really hear what Bernard was saying between songs, it was only afterwards that I found out that they were so unhappy up there and were never gonna do an encore that night. It was a good performance, I can understand the reviewers bitching because there was no encore (well it was only Jack Prat Barron really who had a dig at them), but in terms of both the setlist chosen and the way they actually played the songs, this was the best of the Spring 86 shows by quite a long way.

oldmonkey wrote:

Al Jarvis wrote: I think you'll have to give examples of where you think they've been a HIT, or a MISS, cos one person's decent gig is always gonna be a complete mare for another.

Tracklisting would help for me: if we got Age of Consent, Ceremony and EGG anywhere next weekend then I'm a happy man. I am so easily bought!

One gig I remember them being slated at in the 80's was the 'moody' Oxford Apollo gig in 86 (though I bet a lot of people would kill for a gig like that these days). The reviews of that gig were awful, yet I was sat up in the front of the circle (I had a dislocated shoulder) and when they kicked in 'Ceremony' I swear it looked like a fcuking riot was going on below me in the stalls. The whole place went up, just a surging sea of bodies. Fantastic just sitting watching that, yet so strange to look back on reviews of that one saying how awful New Order were on that occasion. I thought they were sublime!

Oxford really is a classic example of this. I thought this was a tremendous performance at the time, the sound was distorting on the vocals down the front so you couldn't really hear what Bernard was saying between songs, it was only afterwards that I found out that they were so unhappy up there and were never gonna do an encore that night. It was a good performance, I can understand the reviewers bitching because there was no encore (well it was only Jack Prat Barron really who had a dig at them), but in terms of both the setlist chosen and the way they actually played the songs, this was the best of the Spring 86 shows by quite a long way.

Jack Barron!! Started taking too much E and still the NME editor didn't haul in his rambling "equity culture" arse. He wrote some very nice things about the Order later, mind (again, probably too much MDMA consumed by both parties...).

Nice post above as well: "The Boys from Greece"????!!!

Sort of confused by that one myself.?

The boys from Greece.

I remember big mobs from Blackburn and Liverpool but the boys from Greece.

jon purdon wrote: What odds on getting 'Sunrise' as dusk falls upon Hyde Park ? Could someone post up the James Brown review of G-Mex '88 (Nme) ? Cheers.

"read my fookin' lips you shower of cockney wankers, move back"

NME 7/01/89 New Order Greater Manchester Exhibition Centre

Come and join the BARNEY ARMY

The crash-free 125 that cuts it's steely way through the black heart of England towards Manchester Picadilly is over-loaded with soldiers. An army on leave, they clot the exits, passages and seats, resting on kitbags, draining McEwans, reading the Gunner, dozing, and jumping when nudged. They are accompanied down the track by the infantry of another force, armed with wild eyed stares, walkmans, lager, and intent on dodging the fare.. They are The Barney Army, bent on getting "Shellshocked". Her Majesty's boys are returning to their wives, parents and children, so the BA want to see their wife and child. However, their family is the musical brilliance of New Order, which is very special because (like the doomed conscript in "Love Vigilantes") it might be the only family they've got. Outside the G-Mex Centre the Barney Army are laying down their litres of vodka, treading the turd-like ticket touts underfoot, and hurrying through the crocodile queues to get into the former train station where Happy Mondays are already exploding like limpet mines under ice. Having been on (one) stage since the doors were even opened the Mondays are at full throttle by the time they've got an audience. Strafing us with a set of ack-acne riddled tales disturbed by drug consumption, Shaun Ryder is clearly a white swan and Bez his mindwarped duckling. Unfortunately the early start also means an early end so before we can even get a complete Bumming or decently distracted from the stench of burning hamburger meat, Happy Mondays piss off into what probably used to be a complaints or ticket office. ACR should probably have stayed in the left luggage department. Someone announces Manchester 7 London 0 which sweems a strange attitude to have when you've recently left Factory for the larger wads of A&M and your war reporter immediately heads off to a different front. Better fun is to be had in the VPI (Very Pretentious Idiots) Lounge where a host of not really very pretentious nor idiotic celebs, liggers, quaffers, scoffers, singers, journalists, musos and Factory workers arwe checking out the width of each others wallets, the length of each others legs and the depth of each others beers. (tbc)

Continued..

Power drinking is always a necessity at such a function, but unfortunately for the lump of London media lads and lasses who are well into the fifth or sixth spirit, it also blurs the vision. Consequently they miss out on the chance to snap up conversation with Johnny Marr, Matt Johnson, Vini Reilly, David Gedge and a drained image of Ian McCulloch's former self. Meanwhile, dry ice is pumped into the space between the eager army and the beautiful curved roof, and New Order appear, "Touched By The Hand Of God". Despite being slashed and speared through by a piercing display of bright green laser beams, the wet, white smog keeps pumping out and the most stunning band this side of Jupiter leave "Ceremony" and "True Faith" burned into our memories before we can even see them. When they do materialize Barney looks like Jesus in plastercene, Hook is being run on the blood of axe heroes, Gillian is chewing away at her guitar and Steven Morris is behaving like the Domestos drinking lunatic he quite clearly is. Mad Faccers the lot of them, they pile through a set that is more notable for it's speed and energy than it's diversity. Dipping into "Low-Life" and "Substance" to bolster the new material. Barney tells us "This is a new song it's called Dreamtime but by the time we play here again it'll be an old song so you better start enjoying it now. Don't worry we'll play all the old songs at the end". As if it was really necessary. (tbc)

Continued....

As it happens they end two one-song encores with "Fine Time" which despite being frowned upon by the part-time New Order fans in shitty media-land roars past the finishing line thumping, exhilarating, and totally breathless. But before that New Order glide into a seam of creative dance music that could easily be compared to the best clasically composed overtures without being unrealistic or pompous (roll over Beethoven! - Ed). And although Steven Morris later told me he considered it an "average gig for us", it was the music and the open conversation with the audience, not the set's rapid delivery, that made it so special. As Barney whispers through "Every Little Counts" Hook's bass buries itself deep in the audience's gut alongside the love, hate, jealousy, fear and alcohol. A laser spray ejaculates over the roof and "Bizzare Love Triangle" falls from the sky, infests The Barney Army, and has them twisting and yearning in milli-seconds. More and more of New Order's songs appear to be specifically about friendship, lines like "I never thought of you in a sexual way in my life before" from "Touched" soaked in trust and the power of affection. The love flooding back towards the stage can't all have been created by Ecstacy, Dynasty or Fantasy, it seems that New Order makes such exciting and fulfilling music that devotion is unavoidable. Never have i seen so many people watch so much music that continually challenges and breaks the quality barrier.

James Brown

Thank you John Sludden

The Boys From Greece were the support at The Town And Country (October '96)and had small but rather rauccous following from Camden.