writing a report

ello,

i'm writing a story for me university's music magazine about joy division and new order, in part because of the upcoming ian curtis movie. i was hoping you could shine some light on a few things.

1. While love will tear us apart is the most famous, it's certainly not the best joy division song. is there a consensus about waht that might be? or at least a top 3?

2. i know they've been exhausted, but what about the rumours that joy division/new order really are nazi sympathizers? have the band made any definitive statements about it? ive read articles where they denied it, but at the same time seem to joke a bit about it.

3. do you think joy division would have been as legendary if it wasnt for ian's suicide?

i got more, but ere's the biggest ones right now. thanks!

AgeOfConsent wrote: ello,

i'm writing a story for me university's music magazine about joy division and new order, in part because of the upcoming ian curtis movie. i was hoping you could shine some light on a few things.

1. While love will tear us apart is the most famous, it's certainly not the best joy division song. is there a consensus about waht that might be? or at least a top 3?

2. i know they've been exhausted, but what about the rumours that joy division/new order really are nazi sympathizers? have the band made any definitive statements about it? ive read articles where they denied it, but at the same time seem to joke a bit about it.

3. do you think joy division would have been as legendary if it wasnt for ian's suicide?

i got more, but ere's the biggest ones right now. thanks!

Many people do think LWTUA is their best song as well - we've had lots of debate on here, and other people favour Atmosphere and Transmission as well. Transmission won the JD Cup competition we had earlier this year. Other songs much vaunted by the fans are Shadowplay, 24 Hours, New Dawn Fades and She's Lost Control.

Of course they aren't Nazi sympathisers! Ian was very interested in the 2nd World War fashions and politics, but that was about as far as it goes. They probably flirted a bit with some dubious imagery to begin with, but that was more down to their being naive and hungry to get noticed, rather than any underlying tendencies.

Difficult to say whether they would have been legendary if Ian had lived. Would they even have carried on as long as they have? Clearly Ian's illness was having a major debilitating effect, and there must be some doubt as to whether he would have been able to sustain a rock and roll lifestyle for much longer - he clearly had doubts himself.....

same as what tim said. to point three i say yes Joy Division would be legends regardless. two top albums and a handful of great singles. even if they had only put out crap after that, that can not be taken away. who knows what they could have achieved. as big as u2?

Point 3 - Don't forget Ian was only one quarter of Joy Division so they would arguably have trodden a similar musical path to New Order anyway. And New Order are legends.

As far as I can remember Joy Division were top of a load of the annual NME polls in 1980. The interesting thing here is that the votes were collected before May 18th so that would indicate they were going to be huge anyway.

1. If you wanted to cite best album tracks, I think the consensus would be on "Disorder" from Unknown Pleasures and a tie between "Twenty Four Hours" and "Isolation" from Closer. I think if you have space in the article, you should address that there is debate over which is the better album. Most critics go with Closer from what I've read. For me, it's the superior record, and I think actually most fans on this board will agree.

2. I wouldn't spend more than three sentences on the Nazi imagery. "Bernard Dicken once cracked about Rudolf Hess during a concert in 1977. This year was also the peak of punk rock's naive flirtation with fascist imagery, as initiated by the sex and situationist clothing propagated by Malcolm McLaren for the Sex Pistols. The speculation over Nazi sympathizing in all likelihood added to the cult status and mysteriousness of Joy Division and the early, difficult days of New Order." Something like that should convey the message.

3. Joy Division were always a thinking man's band, at least on record. Most live recordings I've heard are quite chaotic. I think it would be worth exploring that dichotomy, Ian's epilepsy, and Hannett's obsessive qualities and how those aspects accentuated the group's allure. Joy Division are legendary now, but remember New Order were a cult band from 1980-1983 (really arguably cult in the US until Substance). So, it's been slow-building. Also, have you ever noticed how weird some Joy Division songs are? The band wrote difficult music at times, letting the influence of PiL bleed through a little. Even in their most repetitive songs, they asked more of the listener than U2, who have really simple (and boring) tunes, and thus get played on the radio ad naseaum.

Just one further comment to add to point 3 is that Joy Division were being championed by the various music papers (e.g. Paul Morley in the NME) prior to Ian's death and were just about to undertake an American tour (which obviously had to be cancelled) - all of this might have eventually led to success as Joy Division.

I also strongly urge you to visit the Joy Division Central website - a wealth of information there - good luck!

What a brilliant thread this is!

JV, man, first time I've seen the word dichotomy here. May have missed a previous occurrence, mayhap. Perceptive assessment of the fascist thing.

As for other references to NME's "backing" for JD and NO, it was clear to me at the time, as a long-time reader, that NME's 1970s-80s "multiple opinions" philosophy produced more "critical" than "favourable". Despite their own polls!

Overall, I accepted the "Nazi" stuff for a while but circa 1985 the truth became obvious and here I am today buying the 12x12" and plastic covers to protect the flimsy sleeves!

As for the U2 comparison, even if JD/NO wanted to be as big as U2 would they want to be that big in the same way? Has anyone asked them?! H

JV wrote:

1. If you wanted to cite best album tracks, I think the consensus would be on "Disorder" from Unknown Pleasures and a tie between "Twenty Four Hours" and "Isolation" from Closer. I think if you have space in the article, you should address that there is debate over which is the better album. Most critics go with Closer from what I've read. For me, it's the superior record, and I think actually most fans on this board will agree.

2. I wouldn't spend more than three sentences on the Nazi imagery. "Bernard Dicken once cracked about Rudolf Hess during a concert in 1977. This year was also the peak of punk rock's naive flirtation with fascist imagery, as initiated by the sex and situationist clothing propagated by Malcolm McLaren for the Sex Pistols. The speculation over Nazi sympathizing in all likelihood added to the cult status and mysteriousness of Joy Division and the early, difficult days of New Order." Something like that should convey the message.

3. Joy Division were always a thinking man's band, at least on record. Most live recordings I've heard are quite chaotic. I think it would be worth exploring that dichotomy, Ian's epilepsy, and Hannett's obsessive qualities and how those aspects accentuated the group's allure. Joy Division are legendary now, but remember New Order were a cult band from 1980-1983 (really arguably cult in the US until Substance). So, it's been slow-building. Also, have you ever noticed how weird some Joy Division songs are? The band wrote difficult music at times, letting the influence of PiL bleed through a little. Even in their most repetitive songs, they asked more of the listener than U2, who have really simple (and boring) tunes, and thus get played on the radio ad naseaum.

I've been thinking bout this all day; what do you mean - dichotomy - I mean how was Ian's epilepsy and the 'division' with Hannet's 'attitude/behaviour' got anything to do with the outcome? Moreover, how on earth does Ian's epilepsy attribute itself to making JD being.......more alluring?? This is an angle I haven't come across before...........

An artist’s appeal can be influenced by any number of factors. JV seemed to be doing no more than suggesting avenues to explore.

JD were quite unlike “mainstream” punk bands (you know what I mean) since they were clearly in a different league lyrically. Press and word-of-mouth about Ian’s epilepsy and the content of his songs made the band “interesting” simply because he was different from virtually all other singers. The band’s name alone rang bells for anyone familiar with Nazi history. Then add in reports/speculation/rumours about Hannett’s approach to production….

So a whole bunch of stuff leads to a band having an amazing appeal (perhaps a less provocative word than “allure”).

And the dichotomy of songs with lyrical depth on JD albums and the band’s behaviour on stage is just another aspect our “report writer” could/should investigate. Even if the question is simply “how can such anarchic guys, as evidenced by recordings of live gigs, have put out albums of such breathtaking intensity?” H

Bernard once said in a radio interview that he regretted calling the band Joy Division - but part of the punk ethic was to shock people and thats what they were doing. They are absolutley in no way Nazi's. Steve has a tank but I think that's just for a laugh - something to polish, really.

I've been thinking bout this all day; what do you mean - dichotomy - I mean how was Ian's epilepsy and the 'division' with Hannet's 'attitude/behaviour' got anything to do with the outcome? Moreover, how on earth does Ian's epilepsy attribute itself to making JD being.......more alluring?? This is an angle I haven't come across before...........

I think Hugh accurately reframed my point. However, I myself will put it a different way.

First, the dichotomy is between Joy Division live, which was more anarchic than the Sex Pistols, and that what you hear on any of their official records. These are two different modes of intensity much of the time. I was saying that in addition to this dichotomy, Ian's epilepsy (the fits onstage that were misinterpreted as frantic dancing) and the then radical production style of Hannett contributed to the group being regarded as some kind of volatile anomaly even within the broad-ranging post-punk generation of UK bands. I also would argue that 'allure' is not provocative at all. If I am not mistaken, Morley went from describing JD as a kind of heavy metal band to something he idealized to a degree of groundbreaking poetry. I may have the wrong journalist in mind, but it still illustrates the fantastic transformation the band underwent. Warsaw were terrible. Closer is nearly immaculate. I can't think of any group in the last thirty five years to have changed that much over such a short time period, and to develop into this almost impenetrable enigma. (Remember, the band rarely gave interviews in those days.)

Curtis wasn't diagnosed with epilepsy until late 78; he had been 'dancing' in that manner some time before that. It was questioned (still is) at the time whether he knew prior to this diagnosis and almost took the 'p' out of himself with his dancing, or whether this was co-incidence and he just danced that way because he had witnessed a friend having fits.

LWTUA was said to be his suicide note, but if any song could be argued as being, I would have thought In A Lonely Place fitted the bill with a death wish reference.

It is clear that he had become increasingly depressed and had already taken an overdose. Also, the very heavy dose of barbiturates he was prescribed had clouded his views.

The so-called Nazi connection was brought on by the band themselves and they made no effort to deny it or otherwise. They did have a fascination for fascism, but the more the Music Press hounded on and on about it, the more the band made light. It was only some years later that they did in fact admit to having had a fascination - but we are talking 25+ years ago...........it was an era when lots of people did. I am led to believe that when they do interviews now, it is made clear in advance that they will not answer any questions relating to the subject. How true that is, I don't know.

I don't think JD could have evolved into anything more. The music scene in the early 80's changed so frequently and the British vinyl buying public (the majority) were quite happy to go with the flow with the introduction of lighter 'pop' music and JD only offered dark and often depressing songs, which inevitably would have seen them disappear along with many other bands who were unable to 'keep up'.

Right on about the epilepsy thing, but didn't the group try to keep it a secret for a while until it got noticeably worse? I remember reading an account by Bernard of one of their gigs, and he kind of alluded to the notion that Ian's manic dancing was like a visceral manifestation of his imbalance triggered by alcohol, pills, and their effect on his condition, because he literally could not stop moving after the song finished. I'm just saying that had I been to a JD concert where Ian started to teeter on the brink, I'd have had no idea whether it was part of the show or if he was really cracking up.