Factory records: overrated toss?

Is it just me or is it time the Factory fetish wore off? Bunch of slick images and smug posturing, in my opinion. New Order and Joy Division were the only two bands on Factory that really break through all the dross. And don't get me started on the Crappy Mondays. For all their hype, there are other independent labels that were putting out FAR better music in the same time period. Need I mention 4AD (Cocteau Twins, Dead Can Dance, Clan of Xymox, Pixies, The Birthday Party, Bauhaus)?

Factory is bullshit.

Stockholm Monsters were great

yeah 4AD probably had more talented bands.Fogot about Clan Of Xymox, they were quite good.Loved their first album back in the day

I completely agree with you. I always thought the Mondays were very overrated. The problem I find with a lot of Factory's other bands are the extremely poor vocals. The instrumentation isn't always bad - they did have Vini Reiley signed to their label - but no one sings decent and it's really hard to listen to them. Also, they must have been really tone deaf to not sign the Smiths but to sign the Mondays.

The Smiths didn't sign to them as a reaction to the whole scene

Johnny "Two Sheds" Jackson wrote: The Smiths didn't sign to them as a reaction to the whole scene

I thought it was Factory who refused to sign the Smiths.

Is it just me or is it time the Factory fetish wore off

Have to agree, makes me chortle that some people think every band on the label were great.I mean the WAKE for fcuks sake and the Stockholm Monsters ( is it true they chose their name after realising their keyboard player was a scarey monster ?).

To Hell With Burgundy The Adventure Babies The Wendys

agreed a lot of crap bands. but they did have great sleeves.

agreed a lot of crap bands. but they did have great sleeves.

I never noticed what they were wearing, apart from Barney, who inspired my whole Wardrobe !

Digital Flying Binoche Teapot wrote:

agreed a lot of crap bands. but they did have great sleeves.

I never noticed what they were wearing, apart from Barney, who inspired my whole Wardrobe !

same here.

ACR?

Mondays before the last album? Bummed must go down as one of the best things factory did- certainly not overrate

Get the message was released on Factory too - so Electronic?

Railway Children

• nice tunes

To each his own, I suppose - agree that a lot of what Factory released was overrated, but there is some good stuff in there as well - Wilson's loyalty to and belief in the Durutti Column excuses a lot of what he did otherwise for me... They (or Vini) were and are still ace... I always had a soft spot for the Stockholm Monsters - although the vocals are a bit dubious... The Wae's post-Factory output on Sarah Records is very good - especially the two singles (Crush The Flowers/Major John) - there are even a few songs slagging off Wilson/Factory on their two Sarah albums... ACR - overrated or underrated? Side 1 of The Graveyard & The Ballroom still blows me away...

Snorri xxx

Get the message was released on Factory too - so Electronic?

Overated toss

Agreed on some points. I always loved Factory for Joy Divisionand NewOrder that is pure CLASS, period. The Durutti column and a certain ratio for as well. A pity for quite the rest. But i like dear old Tony.

RAVEANE DIDIER wrote: Agreed on some points. I always loved Factory for Joy Divisionand NewOrder that is pure CLASS, period. The Durutti column and a certain ratio for as well. A pity for quite the rest. But i like dear old Tony.

thats basically what i was going to say

Overrated toss? Not half as much tosh as some of the views expressed in this thread!

Yes, Factory did have some dodgy releases, but the whole Factory BS was initiated by AHW, don't blame the bands!

I could sit here for hours listing the quality music which came out of the label (especially between 79 & 84) but I'd guess many of you are much too young to remember or even care.

Maybe some of you should spend the holiday weekend investigating the finer musical qualities of some of the bands slandered in this thread, rather than pointless muses in a forum over "New Order Cups", unreleased NO remixes or the total BS in this thread!

If you don't know where to start, try 'Something Outside' 12" by The Wake, 'Alma Mater' LP by the Stockholm Monsters anything by The Durutti Column or 'From The Hip' by Section 25.

It's about time some NOOL'ers considered the quality of their posts in this forum, rather than the quantity of them.

Oh, BTW, none of the bands listed in my post never had to use auto-cue when performing live.

Cooperman wrote: Overrated toss? Not half as much tosh as some of the views expressed in this thread!

Yes, Factory did have some dodgy releases, but the whole Factory BS was initiated by AHW, don't blame the bands!

I could sit here for hours listing the quality music which came out of the label (especially between 79 & 84) but I'd guess many of you are much too young to remember or even care.

Maybe some of you should spend the holiday weekend investigating the finer musical qualities of some of the bands slandered in this thread, rather than pointless muses in a forum over "New Order Cups", unreleased NO remixes or the total BS in this thread!

If you don't know where to start, try 'Something Outside' 12" by The Wake, 'Alma Mater' LP by the Stockholm Monsters anything by The Durutti Column or 'From The Hip' by Section 25.

It's about time some NOOL'ers considered the quality of their posts in this forum, rather than the quantity of them.

Oh, BTW, none of the bands listed in my post never had to use auto-cue when performing live.

yeh we won't blame the bands for being crap. we'll just blame wilson.

new order were better without the autocue.

Pehaps if The Smiths and Oasis had signed to Factory them just maybe...........

No fook that wilson & co would have still fucked it up.

Cooperman wrote: Overrated toss? Not half as much tosh as some of the views expressed in this thread!

Yes, Factory did have some dodgy releases, but the whole Factory BS was initiated by AHW, don't blame the bands!

I could sit here for hours listing the quality music which came out of the label (especially between 79 & 84) but I'd guess many of you are much too young to remember or even care.

Maybe some of you should spend the holiday weekend investigating the finer musical qualities of some of the bands slandered in this thread, rather than pointless muses in a forum over "New Order Cups", unreleased NO remixes or the total BS in this thread!

If you don't know where to start, try 'Something Outside' 12" by The Wake, 'Alma Mater' LP by the Stockholm Monsters anything by The Durutti Column or 'From The Hip' by Section 25.

It's about time some NOOL'ers considered the quality of their posts in this forum, rather than the quantity of them.

Oh, BTW, none of the bands listed in my post never had to use auto-cue when performing live.

I occasionally still do listen to some old factory tracks, but I can't bring myself to listen to things like whole lp's by quando quango and kalima! anymore. The first 2 mondays' lps, some sporadic cabaret voltaire and some stockholm monsters, but that aside there are some poor and pretentious tracks on the palatine box set for example, which was afair representation I thought..

I think the argument is - as with most 'cult' labels - that not everything released is good just because it's on that label... I am a big fan of Sarah records but a lot of the bands who released stuff there are no better than other bands on less fashionable labels - indeed many of them I only own stuff by them on Sarah and probably wouldn't buy stuff by them on other labels... From a completists point of view I like the fact that I have most of the stuff Sarah released, but I don't pretend that it's all good simply because of that fact... I bought plenty of stuff when I was younger purely because it was on Factory -m some of it is good, some is pretty bad and has since been disposed of, but that's just my opinion... I wouldn't criticise anyone for having a soft spot for a Crispy Ambulance album... Off to vote in the NO Cup!

Snorri xxx

Al Jarvis wrote:

Cooperman wrote: Oh, BTW, none of the bands listed in my post never had to use auto-cue when performing live.

You complain about the quality of people's posts then sign-off with a (supposed) jibe?

Think you'll find New Order didn't require an autocue till about 1998. Whilst I know Section 25 are doing a one-off gig very soon, perhaps you'd care to remind the kids the last year either them or the Monsters performed a live gig?

NO were mentioned weren't they? :)

Snorri xxx

Cooperman wrote:

I could sit here for hours listing the quality music which came out of the label (especially between 79 & 84) but I'd guess many of you are much too young to remember or even care.

If you don't know where to start, try 'Something Outside' 12" by The Wake, 'Alma Mater' LP by the Stockholm Monsters anything by The Durutti Column or 'From The Hip' by Section 25.

You sound like a 1980's NME hack!

I dont agree with 'anything' by DC but I'll give you LC, and the other three you quote are first rate. But how many of the FAC catalogue are musical releases (excluding JD/NO)? 150? 200? That's not much of a pass rate then is it?! I dont play Palatine too often, if I can put it that way...

Cooperman wrote: Overrated toss? Not half as much tosh as some of the views expressed in this thread!

Yes, Factory did have some dodgy releases, but the whole Factory BS was initiated by AHW, don't blame the bands!

I could sit here for hours listing the quality music which came out of the label (especially between 79 & 84) but I'd guess many of you are much too young to remember or even care.

Maybe some of you should spend the holiday weekend investigating the finer musical qualities of some of the bands slandered in this thread, rather than pointless muses in a forum over "New Order Cups", unreleased NO remixes or the total BS in this thread!

If you don't know where to start, try 'Something Outside' 12" by The Wake, 'Alma Mater' LP by the Stockholm Monsters anything by The Durutti Column or 'From The Hip' by Section 25.

It's about time some NOOL'ers considered the quality of their posts in this forum, rather than the quantity of them.

Oh, BTW, none of the bands listed in my post never had to use auto-cue when performing live.

I salute you 2 post Cooperman as you've saved me a lot of typing. Too many of the writers of the cack filling this forum like raw sewage drop their pants to crack one off if you mention Depeche Mode or Duran Duran, New Order cups my arse. I would also suggest most bands on 4AD couldn't hold a candle to the Factory stuff.

While Factory (along with other cult labels from the 80s - Mute, Rough Trade, 4AD, Creation, etc.) will always get over-praised and like each of the afforementioned labels released their own stinkers (see To Hell With Burgundy), I would tend to say that Factory had some landmark releases outside of the Joy Division/New Order crew:

Section 25 - Looking From a Hilltop: predated acid house by four years (nice sequencing job Barney!). Still a relevant song today.

ESG - You're No Good: no-disco at it's best, sampled by everyone and their mother, a Larry Levan classic!

A Certain Ratio - Do the Du, early works: though they eventually fizzled in my opinion, their early works are seminal at best. See The Rapture and LCD Soundsystem.

The Durutti Column: what else can I say, Vini is a genius. See Vincent Gallo's "When" LP to see his influence.

Happy Mondays: Sorry, but the Mondays deserve some cred. They were the first to integrate the acid house vibe into rock music. They worked with Oakenfold, Osborne, and Weatherall before they were cool - well before folks like Primal Scream clued onto this and ran with it.

Records by Cath Carroll (her album still stands up today), Quando Quango, The Wake, and Marcel King were also superb. Not to mention the fact that they launched the careers of James and OMD. They also supported folks like Cabaret Voltaire.

Because of this, I can forgive them for To Hell With Burgundy and mediocre acts like Adventure Babies and Northside.

Ive got the Palatine box set. the only good tracks are the Joy Division, New Order and Happy Mondays tracks. The rest is complete shite.

Let me also add that the original roster of 4AD was directly influenced by Factory. And though I love 4AD, they took the original "gothic" sound (I use the term loosely) of Joy Division, the Crispies, etc. to a predictable "we're trying too hard" extreme, while Factory pulled it off with an "I don't care" coolness.

Looking From A Hilltop was superb (from what i recall. havent heard it since 1984)

Alma Mater by Stockholm Monsters is a good album (no longer own a copy ,mind.will have to track one down)

Cath Caroll's Moves Like You i still like to listen to now and then.

And Durutti Column did some great stuff.heard a dance track recently on Pete Tong that sampled one of his better known tracks which i can't remember the name of.Has a soulful singer wailing "no more sleep for me" or something.great guitar work on it.It featured on the Palatine box set.what's it called!!!!! arggghhhhhh

Has a soulful singer wailing "no more sleep for me" or something.great guitar work on it.

You're likely referring to "Otis."

steinomite wrote:

Has a soulful singer wailing "no more sleep for me" or something.great guitar work on it.

You're likely referring to "Otis."

Otis.That would be it.Thanks steinomite.

Yeah there was a dance track recently that sampled the vocals and/or guitar from that track

Factory was and is utterly great. Where else can you find the art, the style, the wit and the aesthetics of the philosopher and the football scally rolled into one? As ever it's pointless trying to debate whether it's over-rated or under-rated (by who?, how can you measure?). Of course it was obviously hit and miss at times, but it tried and succeeded to be something more than just a run of the mill record label, and that's important. The music was 90% spectacularly great - none of the other bands were as consistently brilliant as JD/NO, but many other artists had work which touched the same heights : Durutti Column (Obey The Time, Without Mercy), Stockhom Monsters (Alma Mater, various singles), Cath Carroll (England Made Me LP, The Mondays (Freaky Dancin'/The Egg, Bummed, Hallelujah,), Section 25 (From The Hip, Hilltop megamix), Swamp Children (So Hot LP, Boy 12"), ACR (everything really) great tracks from Shark Vegas, Quando Quango, The Wake, The Names, Crispy Ambulance, Northside, Marcel King, Cabaret Voltaire, The Distractions....and so on. All totally different, but bound together by the unique vision of Wilson, Saville and countless others. If only they could have been together enough to actually get some of these records in the shops, they would have been bloody perfect!

4AD - some very good music on there (Cocteaus, Throwing Muses, Pixies) but often too much style and not enough substance.

Would we expect every release from any label to be consistently good? Many of us will point to below-par/crap releases by NO/JD (1963 for me) - so if a band can't manage excellence all the time, why should we expect a label to be any different? Factory tried to be different - and as some others have pointed out- it was a lifestyle - nightclub and attitude as well as the music.

The Swamp Children 12" I referred to was 'Little Voices' not 'Boy', which was one of the 3 trax. Whatever....it's fantastic!

Other superb records (everything from jangle-pop to electro-phunk with a touch of Northern angst):

Minny Pops - Secret Smile 7" 52nd Street - Cool As Ice and Can't Afford To Let You Go singles James - Jimone and Hymn From A Village Durutti Column - Say What You Mean mini-LP Abecedarians - Smiling Monarchs 12" Miaow - When It All Comes Down and Break The Code singles Anna Domino - Summer The Wake - Harmony LP

Personally, I quite like those artists on Factory that I've heard (and people won't agree with me on this):

• New Order/Joy Division/Electronic/The Other Two/Revenge (obviously)
• Happy Mondays
• Durutti Column
• Crispy Ambulance
• Biting Tongues (yeah, I know... :) )
• James (Hymn From A Village)
• Cath Carrol (I do like "Moves Like You")
• Northside
• Section 25 (one of the first use of a 303 in an acid house record?)

etc

Maybe some of it is over-rated, but what isn't over-rated these days,

reading through the first page i was going to complain that nobody had mentioned james yet, but that's been done now.

factory was pretentious but that's one of the things i like about it

cooperman did make some very valid points mind

I don't like many ot the bands on FACTORY.And a lot that went on was so LONG ago i can't really remember what was SO GOOD about it all.Suffice to say i like some of the ARTWORK.But there is a lof of BULLSHIT.And i thrive on BULLSHIT.Bring back YES and ELP though.Them were days.......

Steve Lea wrote:

But how many of the FAC catalogue are musical releases

Didn't the factory cat have a FAC number? What has s/he done lately? More than some of those other bands mentioned? Has any completist succeeded in collecting him/her? And is s/he in a better state than Sean Ryder?

I remember getting very excited when 'Palantine' came out; then as I read thru' the tracklisting I realised that I had no idea who 90% of the bands were, so I very gingerly placed in back on the shelf and crept away.

The Bemusic CD's are interesting thou' and well worth a flutter; sort of around 75% decent stuff on them two, but quite a few stinkers as well.

I think the world is a more interesting place though, thanks to the brief and chaotic life of the Fac ethos.

Rocket Mick wrote: I don't like many ot the bands on FACTORY.And a lot that went on was so LONG ago i can't really remember what was SO GOOD about it all.Suffice to say i like some of the ARTWORK.But there is a lof of BULLSHIT.And i thrive on BULLSHIT.Bring back YES and ELP though.Them were days.......

This post needs some brain salad surgery done to it.

It probably was overrated however just because New Order were on it made me examine a few of the bands which have remained some of my favourites like ACR, Section 25 and Durutti Column. The artwork always grabbed my attention too. You could always spot a Factory sleeve a mile off.

Outside of NO and the side-projects, I've only heard Happy Mondays, and while I like it, I think Primal Scream did the same thing a bit better on Screamadelica...

404 error wrote:

Steve Lea wrote:

But how many of the FAC catalogue are musical releases

Didn't the factory cat have a FAC number? What has s/he done lately? More than some of those other bands mentioned? Has any completist succeeded in collecting him/her? And is s/he in a better state than Sean Ryder?

Everyone's in a better state than Shaun Ryder.

Aww...factory was the best record label ever. And how can you dis the Happy Mondays?

a couple of points:

1. Factory Records were great. Wilson lost the plot towards the end though, signing acts like Northside, who were terrible.

2. The Wake were good. Not trash at all. Harmony/Here Comes Everybody are as good as New Order's output at that time. Their later releases on Sarah are nowhere as good as their early material.

3. Section 25's From the Hip is also every bit as good as, if not better than New Order's work up until that point.

4. A Certain Ratio from 1980-85 were untouchable, and possibly the best band on the label between these years.

5. Happy Mondays have contributed nothing of any value to music except for heaps of plagiarized funk riffs, sloppy guitar playing, gravelly, incoherent vocals, lyrics that alternate between arrested adolescent sexuality and a lot of drug-induced blather, and a seriously overrated rhythm section. Furthermore their boorish antics and thuggish anti-intellectualism went against Factory's refined aesthetic.

dave soligo wrote:

5. Happy Mondays have contributed nothing of any value to music except for heaps of plagiarized funk riffs, sloppy guitar playing, gravelly, incoherent vocals, lyrics that alternate between arrested adolescent sexuality and a lot of drug-induced blather, and a seriously overrated rhythm section. Furthermore their boorish antics and thuggish anti-intellectualism went against Factory's refined aesthetic.

Nice sleeves though.

This blue-eyed boy that wants to be wrote:

404 error wrote:

Steve Lea wrote:

But how many of the FAC catalogue are musical releases

Didn't the factory cat have a FAC number?

The factory cat wouldn't have a Fac number, surely it would be a Cat(alogue) number? H

404 error wrote:

Steve Lea wrote:

But how many of the FAC catalogue are musical releases

Didn't the factory cat have a FAC number? What has s/he done lately?

If it was found or was still alive before the Hac closed down and converted into luxoflats it would've presumably become part of London Record's attempted buyout of Factory and it's back-(cat)alogue. Which never really occurred so the story goes on 24HPP because Wilson supposedly never really owned anything that was ever produced by "the workers" in Wilson's Factory(the legendary "bloody napkin" contract) and as London's boss pointed out, meant that any deals that London had to do had absolutely nowt to do with Wilson, Erasmus, etc.

The Palatine compilation starts with JD and ends with NO. Nuff said. Oh and Tony Wilson's a pretentious tossbag. He thinks he's Malcolm McLaren who's also a tossbag.

I'm a Fac fetishist to an extent. I don't have any insecurities in saying that, either. I acknowledge what arrogance and pompousity and outright creative theivery went down, and the amount of BS that was mythologicalized and STILL think it's a great story and an exciting label overall.

I like to be entertained. The 'history' and the makeup of the label, the bands, the interconnections, the failures, the pointless table buying, the victories and the sum of it all amuse and move me. It's a sight better read than a lot of other labels I've stuied about. It's a vivid little blip in the whole of the timeline of music.

Overrated, sure, why not. What isn't? Overrated yet quality entertainment on some front, that's a better title.

Like any label - there was great stuff and dire stuff on Factory Records. I used to have quite a sad fascination with the record sleeves likewise (being an art teacher probably has summat to do with it as well), and true enough quite a lot of the best sleeves usually hid some of the worst records.

However around the post-Acid House era Tony Wilson really did spread the talent rather thin - I mean those dreadful amateurish bunch of chancers he signed like Northside, Wendys and Adventure Babies really killed off any little cred the label still had left. And when it went under I have to say that I wasn't too sad cos I'd gone past caring. And what was he thinking lavishing a kings ransom on that Cath Carroll album that probably led directly to the bankrupting of the label anyway? And didn't she give him the finger in a manner of speaking in return for all his efforts anyway - that'll teach the silly bastard.

To recap, my fave Factory records OTHER THAN NO / JD include these:

Flight - ACR Knife Slits Water - ACR To Each - ACR Sextet - ACR You're No Good - ESG Girls Don't Count - Section 25 Always Now - Section 25 Crazy Wisdom - Section 25 Looking From A Hilltop - Section 25 (a seminal record!) From The Hip - Section 25 Bad News Week - Section 25 The Guitar And Other Machines - Durutti Column Promo Flexi - Durutti Column Electricity - OMD Jimone and James 2 (aka Village Fire) - James Talk About The Past - The Wake Of The Matter - The Wake Something That No One Else Could Bring - The Wake (long forgotten and wonderful swansong from this unfairly-maligned band - the four songs on this EP sound NOTHING like the New Order wannabes that they were often accused of being) Reunion Wilderness - Railway Children Delightful - Happy Mondays Tart Tart - Happy Mondays Squirrel and G-Man - Happy Mondays

The question was:- factory records overrated toss.YES.