I expect most of you know what Joy Division actually is? Well on the film 24 hour party people, Tony Wilson goes: 'Thats a very nazi name' and Ian Curtis goes: 'Yeah, well, Joy Division, that's us then'. And I almost went completly off them. The Nazis were evil, and if they used to support them then I will never listen to any of their music ever again. :(
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Are Joy Division Nazi Supporters? :(
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An old chestnut.
It was used to get people's attention.
Same with Siouxsie and the Nazi armband. It was to shock. Not show a political affiliation.
My father does not condone Nazism, or anything to do with the Nazis.
Neither do the rest of the band.
Case closed. 
Master Of Puppets wrote: My father does not condone Nazism, or anything to do with the Nazis.
Neither do the rest of the band.
Case closed.
Ok, I suppose you know best lol.
Nicky wrote: I expect most of you know what Joy Division actually is? Well on the film 24 hour party people, Tony Wilson goes: 'Thats a very nazi name' and Ian Curtis goes: 'Yeah, well, Joy Division, that's us then'. And I almost went completly off them. The Nazis were evil, and if they used to support them then I will never listen to any of their music ever again. :(
Saying the Nazis were evil is like saying rain is wet 
It's a given.
You shouldn't take 24HPP too seriously or as what was actually said all those years ago. The script is somebody elses interpretation of what went on and as Wilson later admits in the film "print the myth because it makes a good story".
Joy Division were not Nazis... I don't think Barney, Hooky or Steve had a clue where the name came from. It originated with Ian (I think) as he was pretty well read but he himself was most certainly not a Nazi. We could be here all day dishing out reasons why he wasn't but he wasn't.
The term came from this book if you're interested, I don't think "The Joy Divisions" actually existed, it's just a fictional thing.
Nicky wrote: I expect most of you know what Joy Division actually is? Well on the film 24 hour party people, Tony Wilson goes: 'Thats a very nazi name' and Ian Curtis goes: 'Yeah, well, Joy Division, that's us then'.
perhaps he was using sarcasm?
and i believe john simm had an even better line about joy division in the film. to paraphrase: 'you know, like, joy.'
Joy Division and New Order may well be ironic thou (ironists? is there a word for that?) ...
certainly 24 Hour Party People movie did a disservice by melodramatizing the "Nazi" angle with exaggerations
Andrew Sayer wrote: who gives a flying fook what they are/think- Music is all that matters
You can tell your 13
You can tell I'm 13 because I dislike the nazis? 
Nicky wrote:
Andrew Sayer wrote: who gives a flying fook what they are/think- Music is all that matters
You can tell your 13
You can tell I'm 13 because I dislike the nazis?
No - asking 'that' question again 
Are Joy Division Nazi Supporters?
Yup - nazis, baby-eaters, mass murderers, general fomenters of chaos and, worst of all, bad tippers. We're talking 5 percent or less even when the service is exemplary. Shocking.
shouldn't there be a rule about 13 yrs on this site? They are being exposed to this debauchery.
NO - they are not Nazis, cripes, other than the name have they ever said anything about supporting Nazism?
JD was a PUNK band, the aim of punk was to SHOCK so thats what they did.
'a Hitler of our own'
Bernard Sumner, during Lonesome Tonight, Hacienda, 1983
but otherwise definately not!
Master Of Puppets wrote: My father does not condone Nazism, or anything to do with the Nazis.
Neither do the rest of the band.
Case closed.
Jack, it's a shame you weren't around between '77 and '80.
That quote would have looked mint on the front of the NME. 
Master Of Puppets wrote: My father does not condone Nazism, or anything to do with the Nazis.
Neither do the rest of the band.
Case closed.
Thank god for that.I feel a bit daft wearing these Jodpurs now though
In the words of Tony Wilson in 24 Hour Party People: "Have you never heard of postmodernism?"
Nicky: the question you ask has been asked a million times and the answer is a categorical 'no'.
You're a young lad so I'll give you the benefit of what is known from long ago (the late seventies). Punk intended to shock the establishment and it did this by different means, both musically and visually. The late seventies in Britain were a time of huge social and political unrest.
It is true that Ian had a wide knowledge of the rise of the Third Reich and the history of the Second World War but he and the band were never advocates of Hitler's evil ideals. The name Joy Division refers to the SS-run brothels which forced Jewish prisoners to sleep with officers. It comes from the novel House Of Dolls which Ian had read.
It's thought that New Order as a name was suggested by the late Rob Gretton (formerly JD and NO's manager).
Mate, the best thing I can ask you to do is to read the FAQ here, learn as much of it asal. Only then will you truly know. material. Only then will you truly know.
Master Of Puppets wrote: My father does not condone Nazism, or anything to do with the Nazis.
Neither do the rest of the band.
Case closed.
Please excuse my ignorance but I have to ask this
Who is your father?
Well his profile says his name is "Jack Hook", so I think you can probably guess whos son he is.
Retroesque wrote: Well his profile says his name is "Jack Hook", so I think you can probably guess whos son he is.
I've just noticed Jack was born in 1989... with Technique !
Unbelievable 
Retroesque wrote: Well his profile says his name is "Jack Hook", so I think you can probably guess whos son he is.
A famous fictional pirate captain?
Retroesque wrote: Some people think the name New Order comes from a speech Hitler made about the "New Order of the third reich", but Rob Gretten actually got it from a political and social strategy employed an Indonesian president:
- who came first, Hitler or Suharto?
- who believes everything they read in wikipedia?
- who actually used the term first? (clue: the Nazis)
- did Gretton actually pick it up from the Suharto source?
- does it matter where he heard it?
- who actually used the term first? (clue: THE NAZIS!)
For the release of 24 hours party people, Tony Wilson claimed on the radio that they were communists...
Gabo wrote: In the words of Tony Wilson in 24 Hour Party People: "Have you never heard of postmodernism?"
i think the problem is that they don't, can't get to intellectual with dem masses
NO have been quite definite in saying that they do not condone or ally themselves with anything to do with Nazism, so that's that.
Other artists who flirt with dodgy imagery and don't clarify what they're up to are the ones that hack me off...
Retroesque wrote: Well his profile says his name is "Jack Hook", so I think you can probably guess whos son he is.
This question has been asked a thousand times. Yes, Joy Division comes from the concentration camps of the Nazis, but that is not to say that New Order are, or were, Nazis themselves. The name New Order was suggested by Rob Gretton (from "The Peoples New Order of Kampuchea"), unfortunately a country that blackened the name of Socialism worldwide due to its brutality.
Ian Curtis was, admittedly, right-wing. But the rest of the band seem decidedly LEFT. Note the 1986 concert in support of Militant Tendency. New Order produced a T-shirt (Fac 152) titled "From Manchester With Love". This proved their support for the fight by Militant against Thatcher in Liverpool. That, to me, confirms their socialist credentials. So to those who think New Order are Nazis, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
I think it has to be borne in mind that when Joy Division 'became' JD, the band like many of the rest of us, were aware of certain issues political and otherwise, of the time; lots of people joined CND without REALLy knowing what it was all about for instance..........one off the cuff comment and.........suddenly they were Nazi supporters..........
Nah.
Think back to how old you were in say, 1977/78...do you believe in the things you thought you believed in then? It's pretty unlikely on some counts.
One comment to one Journalist; taking a name for a Band.......whooo, the NME must have had a field day.
Think of it this way; Radio 1 banned playing 1 in 10 by UB40 because it 'suggested' a 'certain culturism defect'........load of tosh.
Christ, this was the time when 'Enola Gay' by OMD was considered Risque.
Above all............does it matter what they believed/belive anyway?
Its interesting that on some concert footage in the past I have notice stickers on equipment ( guitars and speakers etc.) of the union jack which has some racist undertones. I wonder what the deal is with that.
Since when did the Union Jack have "racist undertones"? The Union Jack is the national flag of Britain, does that mean all Brits are racist? Does anyone accuse the Yanks of being racist for flying their flag at every possible opportunity? And I mean at every opportunity?
Come on, use your brain, and refer to my previous post that (I thought) might clear up the matter. NO did a benefit concert for the Militant Tendency (now the Socialist Party) and as Tony Wilson has aleady said, if anything, NO were sympathetic to Communism, and to Socialist ideals in general. If they were Nazi in any way, I for one wouldnt touch them with a barge-pole. I think they find these repeated accusations extremely offensive, and rightly so.
Richard Bochinski wrote: Its interesting that on some concert footage in the past I have notice stickers on equipment ( guitars and speakers etc.) of the union jack which has some racist undertones. I wonder what the deal is with that.
the deal is you are a dick for thinking the union flag has racist 'undertones'.
Oh shit my mistake, I didn't mean the Union Jack ( sorry if I offended anyone).....I meant to say the Yankee Confederation Flag.
My God it doesn't take long to be jumped on, once again I apologize..... It's the confederate flag. Does anyone have an explanation for this.
SORRY SORRY !!!!!
trickster wrote:
Master Of Puppets wrote: My father does not condone Nazism, or anything to do with the Nazis.
Neither do the rest of the band.
Case closed.
Please excuse my ignorance but I have to ask this
Who is your father?
His Holiness, The Pope wrote:
trickster wrote:
Master Of Puppets wrote: My father does not condone Nazism, or anything to do with the Nazis.
Neither do the rest of the band.
Case closed.
Please excuse my ignorance but I have to ask this
Who is your father?
With that hornless Viking helmet on, it sounded like he was saying "Luke" instead of "Jack"...
Just to add to the obvious: Ian Curtis was right wing but definitely not meant as fascist, he was just a conservative like many punks, that was a reaction against a Labour government which did rather bad when had the chance to rule, so it was like anything but not Labour again, the movie clearly shows that moment of crisis in England. The others weren't so politically aware, they were too young to care and just cared about the music. The whole band was probably attracted to the imagery of the forties, you can see it in the way they used to dress, and certainly deliberately chose to deal with the Nazi element as a mean to make people think. Just look at the Ideal For Living cover: there's the Hitler youth and there's the Warsaw child surrending to the Nazi soldier. That's not a Nazi cover, it deals with the subject, but so does Schindler's List, doesn't it? The very name Joy Division refers to the victims of Nazism, a Nazi band would never use that name, they'd use whatever referes to their sick sense of glory. If Ian ever said "that's us" it's because I read Joy Division also was about the music scene, it compared mainstream musicians to whores, and when you see Top Of The Pops isn't really like seeing a brothel? Anyway Joy Division not only did benefit gigs for Amnesty International (not quite Nazi) but also clearly chose their place in the music scene, Factory Records. The culture of Factory came out of Situationism, which is a cultural wing of Anarchism, but politically there was mostly support for democratic socialism. Durutti Column chose their name from an anti-fascist Spanish leader. Factory has been, in the whole history of music, the most open minded cultural place, you just had the punks dancing with the black people and their rhythms and you had the blacks pogoing with the punks and their guitars. You had A Certain Ratio, the most anti-racist band which could ever exist, the perfect mix of the white and black cultures. In Factory you had blacks, jews, gays and junkies. In the interviews of the most recent years, Bernard Sumner has supported the Socialist Labour and the Green Party. He's not very interested in politics yet, all he knows is he'd like more social justice and less pollution for the planet where his children will have to live.
Clark wrote: Hmm, so the thinking here is that the Nazis did more harm than good?
I think that's the general concensus in 99.995% of civilised society?! 
