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OK there have been a spate of shite threads here and I thought I'd add my own.
Assuming Ceremony would have been the next single after LWTUA, what would have formed the next album?.
Was the flexi consisting of Komakino, Incubation and As You Said released before Ian died? If not, the first two might have gone on the album with IALP and which tracks from Movement? How about Dead Souls and Atmosphere being included also?
This has always interested me, it's far from a shite thread! I don't think any of the songs that were released elsewhere at the time of Closer would have gone on a third album. They were already doing this thing of not putting singles on albums, so Ceremony and probably IALP wouldn't have made it onto the album.
I think they would have continued to turn out new songs at a fast rate (and who's to say they wouldn't have been thinking of the music for Dreams Never End, Truth, Senses etc), so in all honesty I suspect we would have ended up with Movement, just with Ian singing.
Fair comment about keeping singles off of albums, I wonder at what point Dead Souls and Atmosphere ('two of the best songs of all time' according to Rob Gretton allegedly and who am I to dissagree) have been made more widely available had JD carried on. Intresting conjecture that they may have gone on to record Movement with Ian - I just think that - as I mentioned on another thread, JD had a knack of making classic songs more regularly than New Order had managed over a longer period of time.
oldmonkey wrote: This has always interested me, it's far from a shite thread! I don't think any of the songs that were released elsewhere at the time of Closer would have gone on a third album. They were already doing this thing of not putting singles on albums, so Ceremony and probably IALP wouldn't have made it onto the album.
I think they would have continued to turn out new songs at a fast rate (and who's to say they wouldn't have been thinking of the music for Dreams Never End, Truth, Senses etc), so in all honesty I suspect we would have ended up with Movement, just with Ian singing.
except it would be ian writing like ian and not barney trying to write lyrics like ian.
I have to disagree here. I don't think a third album would have sounded like Movement with Ian's vocals and lyrics. Had they gone to America, LWTUA would have earned more immediate attention over there, and the group's exposure to and immersion in the NYC club scene might have well have occurred sooner than it did for New Order. It might have made sense to issue a single from Closer, albeit a different version-say a new mix of 'Isolation' for club play. If Ian were in a decent state of mind, he would have not wanted to repeat the emotional territory of Closer, which Movement does in a highly fractured sense. The group would have probably taken time to write a record that would at least equal Closer in its potency and pursue the melodicism of Isolation and Ceremony more fully.
For me, Movement is a great album live and a muddled affair on tape. This is because Hannett was no longer making the progression of the group his main priority when working with them. Had Ian been alive and healthy, Hannett would have been more measured and focused in his production and the group (mostly Bernard and Hooky) would have not had the burden of suddenly becoming lyricists to fill the vacuum. Now, I'm not saying EGG or Temptation would have been written any sooner or that they'd have been written at all, but from Warsaw through Closer, that group matured more than any other in the history of popular music-more so than Wire. Without Ian, their sensiblities were displaced and it took a while for them to regain consistency and confidence.
On the subject of classic tracks, the reason why I now prefer NO to JD is because NO wrote more beautiful, exuberant music than JD.
Classic five JD songs:
LWTUA Atmosphere Disorder Transmission 24 Hours
Classic five NO songs:
Temptation TPK Regret Age of Consent YSF
Perhaps in those top five JD covers more emotional ground, but overall I found NO's catalogue to have greater range in aesthetics, composition, arrangement and emotion (especially when the lyrics are surprisingly thoughtful or colorful). I deliberately did not include Ceremony because one can make the argument either way as to which era the song belongs.
JV wrote: On the subject of classic tracks, the reason why I now prefer NO to JD is because NO wrote more beautiful, exuberant music than JD.
Classic five JD songs:
LWTUA Atmosphere Disorder Transmission 24 Hours
Classic five NO songs:
Temptation TPK Regret Age of Consent YSF
Perhaps in those top five JD covers more emotional ground, but overall I found NO's catalogue to have greater range in aesthetics, composition, arrangement and emotion (especially when the lyrics are surprisingly thoughtful or colorful). I deliberately did not include Ceremony because one can make the argument either way as to which era the song belongs.
I'd say that the greater range in that New Order list is due in no small measure to the gap between the oldest song (Temptation) and the newest (Regret) is about 12 years while on the Joy Division list it's less than a year and a half.
As to a 3rd Joy Division album I'd have put it in Movement territory but certainly not a Movement clone - Ian's 'riff spotting' would have seen to that and without the pressure of having to come up with lyrics the rest of the band would maybe have found song writing easier. Though as was mentioned before they may have got into the club/dance scene a bit earlier which could have had a big influence...
Taking a cue from Ceremony, I almost believe it would have been a jump to slightly lighter fare. After such a purging album like Closer, I think the catharsis had been completed to an extent. Maybe something like a cross between Movement and (dare I say it?) Temptation.
Had they toured America, the disco age flying into sudden death would have been ripe picking for a change to dancier fare. But dancier only in tone, not in lyrical content. Their third album might have become an all electronic release, if influenced just right by what was happening in 'clubby' America.
Or... alternatively, after touring America the realization that those yanks just didn't "get" it, there might have been a big enough sense of failure that the third album would have been rife wih more turmoil than Closer. Imagine Ian coming home after being exposed to the grand excesses of America... what would be spinning in his head?
Just seeing how the transition from Isolation to Temptation could easily be made, is a bit exciting.
OK: five classics from NO, '80-'83, same number of years as Joy Division (if you count the embryonic phase as Warsaw):
Temptation has proven as enduring as LWTUA in my estimation, and among fans of both groups, Age of Consent would probably beat out Atmosphere. Isolation, 24 Hours, and Disorder could beat out three of the above five, but it's tough to decide. I feel like it's a bit of a draw...although Digital alone might just swing it in JD's favour. I guess my point is that NO definitely came up with some classics in their early years that are just as valid as JD's best.
When it comes down to it, Closer might be the best album ever made by those three musicians, but the fact that albums as great as PCL and Technique were even made after the fact is a testament to the enduring and adventurous creativity possessed by NO.
The thing that struck me was how naff a lot of the leftover writings and lyrics from Ian were......very rambling and no clear structure to them. Maybe they would have gone through a big panelbeating session as they were fitted to music though...
Would anyone say Ian was the driving force of the melody and rhythm of Joy Division's sound? If not, I think the path from Isolation to Temptation was already being trodden when he buggered off.
Steve Lea wrote: The thing that struck me was how naff a lot of the leftover writings and lyrics from Ian were......very rambling and no clear structure to them. Maybe they would have gone through a big panelbeating session as they were fitted to music though...
Would anyone say Ian was the driving force of the melody and rhythm of Joy Division's sound? If not, I think the path from Isolation to Temptation was already being trodden when he buggered off.
I think many of the live recordings of JD indicate Ian had fallible pitch, which is the exhausted charge lobbed at Bernard. Ian was a force and presence that led the group and he wrote some great lyrics, but Hooky, Bernard, and Steve wrote the actual music. Ian just knew how to distinguish a good riff from a pedestrian one.
Steve Lea wrote:
Would anyone say Ian was the driving force of the melody and rhythm of Joy Division's sound? If not, I think the path from Isolation to Temptation was already being trodden when he buggered off.
Agreed. I think "isolation" could of been the first NO song. I think a third Joy Division album would of delve further into the electronic realm of things than movement. Movement was an album made by band struggling with life and unsure of where they were going. Ian's death, i believe for a period of time stunted their musical growth.
What a great thread! Mere conjecture of course, as it has to be, but doesn't it make a refreshing change from the Shed and all that bollocks?
A track by track comparison showing where Movement is either a shadow or progression of Closer's material:
Atrocity Exhibition/Truth (weak for Movement) Isolation/Dreams Never End (strong for Movement) Passover/ICB (weak for Movement) Colony/Senses (strong for Movement) A Means To An End/Denial (OK for Movement) Heart & Soul/Chosen Time (I actually prefer Chosen Time in a way, but mostly because of the live versions) 24 Hours/The Him (again, unfortunately, weak for Movement) The Eternal/Doubts Even Here (A draw? I think I'll take The Eternal) Decades...well, in a league of its own, really, plus Movement has only 8 tracks.
Anyone else agree with the lineage I've proposed?
oldmonkey wrote: Neither understand what you are trying to achieve, nor agree with the song comparisons!
I'm saying that the paired songs share a certain atmosphere and general musical feel, and that the Movement songs are often a rehash of certain aesthetics employed on Closer. I should correct myself by saying it's not a lineage, but rather there are correlations between the songs on Closer and Movement. Much more so than between Unknown Pleasures and Closer.
oldmonkey wrote: Neither understand what you are trying to achieve, nor agree with the song comparisons!
now you don't like the scholarly discourse?
jonathan wrote:
oldmonkey wrote: Neither understand what you are trying to achieve, nor agree with the song comparisons!
now you don't like the scholarly discourse?
Maybe I should withdraw from the thread; I've posted more in the last 24 hours than in the past two months!
JV wrote:
jonathan wrote:
oldmonkey wrote: Neither understand what you are trying to achieve, nor agree with the song comparisons!
now you don't like the scholarly discourse?
Maybe I should withdraw from the thread; I've posted more in the last 24 hours than in the past two months!
well, if it's any consolation, i could see where you were going with the comparison. Not in total agreement but who cares. It is conjecture.
jonathan wrote:
oldmonkey wrote: Neither understand what you are trying to achieve, nor agree with the song comparisons!
now you don't like the scholarly discourse?
Not at all, I couldn't see what JV was trying to achieve, and couldn't instantly identify the songs in those pairings. Still can't pair the songs up like that, as an exercise it doesn't work for me.
As Phil Collins already said, Movement didn't have the benefit of Ian's quality control, and half the stuff that did get recorded possibly wouldn't have done so with Ian picking at it. And the lyrics would have been better! Riffs tend to stay though, so songs that contain bold, solid riffs would have emerged anyway. It's the meanderers that go nowhere that would have been purged. ICB is a non-league Dead Souls anyway, listen to the bass lines and put yourself in Hooky's shoes! He was itching to start playing Dead Souls (and did in the early live versions of ICB)!
I think what would be even MORE interesting would be to either see/hear the definitive set list for the July '80 Beach Club gig (what's posted on the intarweb is recollections 20 years after the fact), and take into consideration the Western Works demos. Those songs (WW demos and whatever was played at the Beach Club debut) were either written when Ian was still alive (Ceremony/IALP), or in a mere two months afterwards (Truth, Homage, DNE, perhaps Mesh/Cries & Whispers). I would bet anything that at least one of the latter songs, if not all of them, were in some state of embryonic development when Ian left this mortal coil. They are just too melodic and developed on the WW demos to have been bashed out within weeks of Ian dying.
Of the official original NO tracks, I would hazard a guess that Mesh and C&W started off as JD tracks. There are too many opportunities for guitar and synths to play at the same time, hinting that the plan may have been for Ian to play guitar on those two while Bernard did the synths (at least live). The fact they were played at Scamps, and then at the Sept. 80 American tour, definitively shows they were composed pre-Gillian - not with a three-piece in mind, as they sound much better with guitars and synths playing at the same time.
I'm talking completely out my arse here but all of us are, unless we somehow unearth JD rehearsal tapes from April/May '80!
I think it might be better to limit the thinking to the earliest NO songs, rather than those introduced into the live setting later than say, the Squat gig that was Gillian's debut. This leaves us with:
Ceremony (duh) IALP (duh) HomageDreams Never EndTruthMeshCries and WhispersProcession (if the sample claiming to be Maxwell's, Sept. 80 is to be believed - again, written with coinciding guitars and synths - not easy for Bernard to play without three hands!)
I suspect at least some of the italicized tracks originated during JD rehearsals.
drew
melly wrote: Had they toured America, the disco age flying into sudden death would have been ripe picking for a change to dancier fare. But dancier only in tone, not in lyrical content. Their third album might have become an all electronic release, if influenced just right by what was happening in 'clubby' America.
Whoa. That means Joy Division might have become...
VNV Nation??!!
Awesome thread and one that is very close to my heart. So, what do we know for sure:
Ceremony & IALP written and were planned to be recorded on the American tour. Going by previous patterns, this almost certainly would mean they were the follow up single to LWTUA.
We know that they planned at least a Scottish tour for July (I was supposed to go the Glasgow gig and I've from others of an Edinburgh show too). Going from previous patterns again, it's likely they'd have some new material ready for these shows.
I reckon we'd have seen the Ceremony single come out in September/October and a new album recorded over the winter and released in March/April '81. They were writing at such a tremendous speed by the point at which Ian died that they'd easily have a new album's worth of song's by then.
It's clear they were already experimenting with electronics and i think the new album would have seen some small steps in that direction e.g. I'm pretty sure a version of Truth would have emerged in some form or other. The majority of the album however would have been a progression of the second side of Closer/Atmosphere direction - stately, synth focussed atmospheric tunes e.g. Doubts Even Here would have fitted into this quite nicely.
To coincide with the new album, a new single would also be released (non-album of course). I like to think that a Procession type of song would have been this single.
As strange as this may sound, I think that, album wise, they would have quite quickly headed in a similar direction to how Dead Can Dance turned out in their mid to late 80's style. Atmospheric, almost ambient, songs written using an electronic backbone but with acoustic instruments on top - like New order but with the poppy, lightness replaced by a continuation of the JD darkness.
For singles, they would have continued to release their faster, lighter songs e.g Procession, maybe a variant of Dreams Never End, possibly a toned down version of Temptation but I don't ever see them going as mainstream pop/dance as New Order did.
This may be of interest:
http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/playing_god/new-order-movement.htm
drewc wrote: I think what would be even MORE interesting would be to either see/hear the definitive set list for the July '80 Beach Club gig (what's posted on the intarweb is recollections 20 years after the fact), and take into consideration the Western Works demos. Those songs (WW demos and whatever was played at the Beach Club debut) were either written when Ian was still alive (Ceremony/IALP), or in a mere two months afterwards (Truth, Homage, DNE, perhaps Mesh/Cries & Whispers). I would bet anything that at least one of the latter songs, if not all of them, were in some state of embryonic development when Ian left this mortal coil. They are just too melodic and developed on the WW demos to have been bashed out within weeks of Ian dying.
Of the official original NO tracks, I would hazard a guess that Mesh and C&W started off as JD tracks. There are too many opportunities for guitar and synths to play at the same time, hinting that the plan may have been for Ian to play guitar on those two while Bernard did the synths (at least live). The fact they were played at Scamps, and then at the Sept. 80 American tour, definitively shows they were composed pre-Gillian - not with a three-piece in mind, as they sound much better with guitars and synths playing at the same time.
I'm talking completely out my arse here but all of us are, unless we somehow unearth JD rehearsal tapes from April/May '80!
I think it might be better to limit the thinking to the earliest NO songs, rather than those introduced into the live setting later than say, the Squat gig that was Gillian's debut. This leaves us with:
Ceremony (duh) IALP (duh) HomageDreams Never EndTruthMeshCries and WhispersProcession (if the sample claiming to be Maxwell's, Sept. 80 is to be believed - again, written with coinciding guitars and synths - not easy for Bernard to play without three hands!)
I suspect at least some of the italicized tracks originated during JD rehearsals.
drew
VERY interesting post, drew. And you may be right too. The WW demos were recorded on 07.07.80, which means only seven weeks after Ians demise. On the other hand, NO didn't want to play JD songs, so they must have considered these new songs as theirs (NO's). Possibly they decided to only play "unrecorded" JD songs (and drop all the recorded ones), which left them with Ceremony and IALP (and possibly embryonal versions of DNE, Truth, Homage,...)
drewc wrote:
Of the official original NO tracks, I would hazard a guess that Mesh and C&W started off as JD tracks. There are too many opportunities for guitar and synths to play at the same time, hinting that the plan may have been for Ian to play guitar on those two while Bernard did the synths (at least live). The fact they were played at Scamps, and then at the Sept. 80 American tour, definitively shows they were composed pre-Gillian - not with a three-piece in mind, as they sound much better with guitars and synths playing at the same time.
Aye, i think this is a fair point, i can definitely see Mesh and to an extent, C&W as tracks that may have been born by JD.
I'd like to think that JD would have gone off into a more synth/electronic direction. Barney has stated that it was a natural progression and they'd been fiddling around with them for a while. Plus Martin Hannett would have still been producer, and he was keen on electronic stuff.
The Hannett factor would have surely kept them atmospheric and 'dark', despite the US dance scene or whatever they would have experienced when they toured the US.
Very interesting thread indeed. All we can do is speculate. I'd like to think that the third JD album would have been an even greater improvement on the first two.
Aries wrote: This may be of interest:
http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/playing_god/new-order-movement.htm
That would have been a much better album! 
(Cue loads of 'Movement' lovers with flamethrowers! 
)
I agree, too, that I like where drew was going with that track list. And Aries, great plug for that article, I'd not read it in a while.
(Although your earlier draw on VNV Nation... 
I do like the band, but I'm trying to not giggle so much imagining JD pumping out 'Beloved' or 'Standing'.)
It's annoying when you can hear what you think they'd sound like, but you can't quite describe it. 
We'd like to see what ol' Rob had in the nice big friendly boxload of tapes and notebooks. Betcha there's something that would give a great big clue within its folds. (Like that Beach Club tape!)
Aries wrote: This may be of interest:
http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/playing_god/new-order-movement.htm
I've read through the article on this link, and whilst the subject matter is of great interest, I'm afraid that I lost my rag after reading this...
06. Dreams Never End (original album track) ...R.E.M.-sounding guitars jangle all over the place
Why oh why do US-based journo's continually attempt to compare British musical heritage to latter day US bands!
Fook wits, the lot of them!
Haven't you heard, Joy Division sound a lot like Interpol!
Just a little spanner in the works...Dead Souls & Atmosphere are from '79,& had already been 'released',albiet as the Sordide single,so taking the JD methods at the time,they would have already 'moved on'.As to what direction the sound of a '3rd LP' would've gone,I think you just have to look at both 'Ceremony' & 'IALP' to see,both being extremely thin in the electronic influence to end up sounding like 'Movement'.Could never see JD recording 'Dreams Never End'.Do agree with an earlier poster about said 'Movement',I think it's great live,far too muddy & claustrophobic on record,Hannet ruined it.Hooky has said before they should've re-recorded it. 
A mixture of the previously unreleased stuff from Still and Substance + some birthing of the unfinished songs at the back of 'From a distance'...
deffo some of the leftovers on still would have turned up on a 3rd lp,sound of music,exersise one, and even possibly ice age could have appeared,add them to some of the stuff from movement and you would have had a strong 3rd album indeed. that said though if you listen to the leftovers on still and then to movement they almost sound like completely different bands. so ,who knows eh,im happy with what ive had from the lads but still its nice to ponder. good thread.
None of the stuff from Still would have been on the 3rd album - most of them are old songs from 78 & 79 that had already been rejected. The band were writing new songs at a tremendous rate and would have had a whole new set written fairly quickly (as show by the fact that Ceremony & IALP were already written before Closer was released).
Jamie Fairlie wrote: None of the stuff from Still would have been on the 3rd album - most of them are old songs from 78 & 79 that had already been rejected. The band were writing new songs at a tremendous rate and would have had a whole new set written fairly quickly (as show by the fact that Ceremony & IALP were already written before Closer was released).
hmmm dunno about that m8, jd had a habit of refining a song till they thought they had got it right,just look at the stuff that turned up on unkown pleasures. quite a few of them had been around in one form or another for a while. but hey you could easily be right , they could have been held back for b sides ect. we will never know. either way both points of view just go to show how damn fast they was developing at that time,quite amazing really.
