A question about New Order and Joy Division...

Im new to these forums but i thought id ask this question here. Im wondering are Joy Division and New Order influenced by Pere Ubu? i bought Pere Ubu CDs recently and can see loads of similarities at times between both bands. Maybe its more so with Joy Division but at times i can see it with New Order slightly aswell. Im wondering have they ever cited Pere Ubu as an influence or if not am i the only one who thinks this?

i have a song by pere ubu called 'non alignment pact', i love it! but that's as far as my knowledge takes me

"Brian Edge" makes the very same point in his book about NO/JD.

Headfullofsteam wrote: Im new to these forums but i thought id ask this question here. Im wondering are Joy Division and New Order influenced by Pere Ubu? i bought Pere Ubu CDs recently and can see loads of similarities at times between both bands. Maybe its more so with Joy Division but at times i can see it with New Order slightly aswell. Im wondering have they ever cited Pere Ubu as an influence or if not am i the only one who thinks this?

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere about Ian listening to them, but I can't find the reference at the mo...

Snorri xxx

On a slightly different note...

Psychedelic Furs' "Love My Way"

seems to be echoed in the 'all my life' refrain in Electronic's "Getting Away With It";

plus, "Thieves Like Us" is a bit reminiscent of the aforementionedd Furs track.

I have never read or heard in any interview given by N.O. or J.D.,the mere mention of Pere Ubu, by the band themselves, as being cited as an influence,other than what the music press themselves have decided to bestow upon them.& I refer to the Ideal for Living,History in Cuttings,Touching...,Pleasures....etc,etc books.I have noticed it being a fairly recent introduction tho',seemingly when the band 'returned' after '98 & became 'the legendary N.O.' instead of just N.O.,as if the press had discovered new labels to put on them.If I'm wrong however,I put myself before 'The Knowledge' of my esteemed fellow NOOLers & lick their boots in deserved shame

I think any perceived connection to Pere Ubu was all the music press trying to find some common ground, trying to find a way of pigeonholing the band, probably as some means of justification for being allowed x budget on articles/photos. Can't really hear any connections, and have certainly never read anything about any influence/connection.

Oh yes, there's definitely some common ground here. Early stuff like 30 Second Over Tokyo, or Non-Alignment Pact has a similar brooding bass and drum pulse to Joy Division, and Allen Ravenstine's keyboard noises and textures fulfil a similar role to Hannett's production tricks. Pere Ubu's hometown, Cleveland seems to have parallels with 1970's Manchester - a hulking industrial giant brought to its knees by rising unemployment and failing economy. A song like Chinese Radiation talks about Cleveland's decay more directly than Curtis's more abstract cityscapes (e.g Shadowplay), but they are similarly atmospheric and evocative of place.

I've just given a listen to the Pere Ubu songs DC listed,albiet 30 second snippets on iTunes, & altho' I'll agree there is some common ground,I don't think there is enough to say they're hewn from the same rock,not like,say,Interpol have to The Chameleons/Psychedelic Furs.I'm open-minded on it tho',having only heard 30 seconds or so

DC wrote: Oh yes, there's definitely some common ground here. Early stuff like 30 Second Over Tokyo, or Non-Alignment Pact has a similar brooding bass and drum pulse to Joy Division, and Allen Ravenstine's keyboard noises and textures fulfil a similar role to Hannett's production tricks.

Pere Ubu's hometown, Cleveland seems to have parallels with 1970's Manchester - a hulking industrial giant brought to its knees by rising unemployment and failing economy. A song like Chinese Radiation talks about Cleveland's decay more directly than Curtis's more abstract cityscapes (e.g Shadowplay), but they are similarly atmospheric and evocative of place.

Things that I've read also made the connection to Pere Ubu. There was the sense of optimism that both works reflected to. Another way. Past and through the working Industriual City air. + scene.

There are reviews in the Eternal site by Michka Assayas, believe that's right. And she reflects to the embarrassment from the press at having to describe the JD early New Order sound. And saying to the effect that, 'Joy Division was a little like Pere Ubu. In an English way, you see?' Of having to put it into print..

Hiya Jen!

I've never read anything about Joy Division or New Order being influenced by that guy...

Monty Does Dallas wrote: Hiya Jen!

Monty Does Dallas the Charmer! Been hearing a fair bit of Blondie this last while. The Eternal- Enkiri site has some excellent reviews.

DC. Enjoyed your take on STILL. CASHING IN, or CLEARING OUT. This thread was months back. Did look into the lines and notes you'd written, wiki-ed etc.s soon after. Specifically DBowie's Low Heroes Lodger. Does make the connection linked to Can Neu Fest. Held through to some of his Berlin recordings. Steve Morris' early best style and the layered space. Brian Eno etc.s. aces.

Other bands who may have been important in shaping JD's sound are Can and possibly Neu. Can's strong groove seems like a forerunner to JD and Steve Morris's tom-tom patterns are everywhere in Jaki L's drumming e.g on the Monster Movie and Future Days albums. I have no evidence that JD definitely listened to Can, but other Factory musicians did for sure :

1. Section 25's first two albums are VERY can-like, especially The Key Of Dreams which not only sounds exactly like mid-period Can, but was edited down from hours of jams, just like Can used to do.

2. ACR lifted the bassline for Knife Slits Water pretty much directly from Can's 'Aspectacle'.

3)Ever thought that Sean Ryder was truly original? Listen to Damo Suzuki's vocals on Future Days - an uncanny resenblance in timbre and phrasing to Mr. Ryder!

4. Not Factory, but Stone Roses 'Fools Gold' IS Can's 'Halleluwah' from Tago Mago.

Neu are more of an outside chance, but I would bet good money that Hannett was pretty familiar with at least their first album. Neu 75, the third album, is quite JD-like with strong, repetitive bass and drums rolling along and melodic fragments drifting in and out. Think Candidate or I Remember Nothing, maybe even The Eternal or Decades. As an aside, listen to the Hallogallo on the first Neu record to see where Stereolab stole their whole sound from.

Some of this krautrock stuff may have come to JD secondhand - Bowie's trilogy of Low/Heroes/Lodger borrows lots of sounds and methods of working from Can/Neu/Faust. They will certainly have been listening to the first two of these records in the early days of JD. The Brian Eno solo records are another likely influence.

leather_girl wrote: I've never read anything about Joy Division or New Order being influenced by that guy...

"That guy?" Are you referring to Jarry's "Ubu Roi" or do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Completely forgot about this topic and to reply to it so ill round it up. I think the music press theory might have been right because ive seen only music critics employ comparisons or influence between the two. Regardless though both bands are great in own rights, Pere Ubu could arguably be the first ones to actually create a factory esque sound but anyhows bein into the band heres a list for JD/NO fans to check out songs by Pere Ubu to decide their own opinions. Theyre a great band and im pretty sure JD fans will like em. Their songs take quite a bit of listening to get into but theyre well worth it.

Final Solution My Dark Ages(This song definitely foreshadows JD) Humor Me Real World Chinese Radiation Untitled(the Terminal Tower version is an amazing song) On The Surface Street Waves Cloud 149

I may have imagined this but I am sure I read somewhere that Joy Division (early in their career) went to see Pere Ubu play live. Sorry I cannot recall where I picked this up from.

The Krautrock influence on Joy Division is spot on. Don't forget Ian wore a Nektar T-Shirt. Nektar were British but were based in Germany and were very much part of the Krautrock scene.

leather_girl wrote: I've never read anything about Joy Division or New Order being influenced by that guy...

Ditto.

I thought you guys might find this interesting as my old roommate was the blonde girl on most of the Pere Ubu album covers

I emailed her about the UBU/JOY DIVISION similarities and she replied:

During the Pere Ubu days, we were very interested and informed about other bands. Scott Krauss, the drummer (who I saw over Christmas) worked in a record store and ordered and borrowed and probably stole as much music as he could. He turned me on to crazy female dub bands in Jamaica, stupendous funk bands from Detroit and really fast Mineapolis bands like Suicide Commandos. We all were aware of and loved Joy Division, but there were precious little similarities with Pere Ubu, and not a word of competition or resentment, I assure you. If you visit me at the farm, I'll play the vinyl for you. Some of it is still good.

While this doesn't say anything from the Joy Division side it doesn't seem like anyone in Pere Ubu thought Joy Division sounded anything like them but they were JD fans...

Kerry Harris wrote: to crazy female dub bands in Jamaica, stupendous funk bands from Detroit and really fast Mineapolis bands like Suicide Commandos. We all were aware of and loved Joy Division, but there were precious little similarities with Pere Ubu, and not a word of competition or resentment, I assure you.

While this doesn't say anything from the Joy Division side it doesn't seem like anyone in Pere Ubu thought Joy Division sounded anything like them but they were JD fans...

That's excellent. In part that the Media and press tried to make the times sound, to a certain degree, like such a Circus.