The Perfect Kiss Revisited (2002)

Just thought I'd better start a fresh NEW ORDER-related topic before yet another onslaught of OT madness starts infesting every nook and cranny.

This may look like a blatant reheating of an older thread, but to hell with it, it's also for the benefit of a lot of the newer onliners here, who may not have caught my thread six months ago extolling the unimpeachable greatness of what many consider New Order's most transcendent moment, I feel it's time to give this song the reassessment/re-appraisal it's crying out for, especially seeing as there is such a remote chance of it ever finding itself onto the band's all-too-predictable live setlists of late. No amount of furious campaigning and lobbying for a good cause can disguise the fact that TPK is truly New Order's symphonic Tour de Force and, to this day, it has yet to be surpassed as the classic example of a NO song so simple yet so undeniably powerful it can leave the listener breathless, awestruck or in a state of pure orgasm (now now Liv, Kezzie, contain yerselves!! ).

Face it, which other three-note song can you think of that comes anywhere near close to this one for sheer unabridged vitality, exhilaration and potency? Not many, that's for sure. And if you listen to it carefully, I think the argument about it being mainly composed of just three (maybe four at a push) principal notes does ring true. At least it seems like that to me each time I hear it, and believe me, for the past 17 years (!!!!) this remains still my most played New Order song by a long long margin! (especially my super-length 15 minute mix splicing together the A and B sides of the original 12-inch "The Perfect Kiss Pit Of Death"!).

What I want to know is, seeing as there have been so many (mostly wretchedly pointless) remixes of New Order songs over the ages, this one seems to have escaped relatively unscathed....thank fook for small mercies then. But then, as this is a vexing issue, suppose there WAS to be a series of new remixes of this track, how would you like the revamps to sound? Or would you simply be aghast (like me possibly) at the prospect of some of these talentless used-johnny-come-latelys messing around with...perfection...?? Hmmm....tough one, don't you think? All I know is that there have been a smattering of various bootlegs of mixes of this song circulating over the years, but never something so much as an official release. So what do you think? Perhaps the first thing that needs overhauling is the dated drum track. That to me is the ONLY thing about the original that may now sound a little out of place as it were. But please, if anyone suggests anything as stinky as a fooking trance beat or something, please set their mouth alight for even suggesting that! Trance? FOOK OFF!! (Are you listening Pete Dong??)

Perhaps a straight rerelease may be the best bet? Slightly remastered.... Who knows? That much-delayed box set of singles could present a great opportunity to rerecord this track, just like the Order could have done with other older classics like Your Silent Face, Temptation, etc...

Considering the age of the song, at a time when many New Order tracks featured huge climaxes (cue Barneys "small dicks" quip at Glastonbury 87), it would be a great idea to revisit this period (arguably NO's "golden years" ha ha!) and dust off the old gems and do them some justice. But knowing the contrary old sods, they probably seem much happier and keener re-working bloody World In Motion for the fooking World Cup instead.....boo!!...hiss!! Oh well, here's to the future....the sound of post-commercial-peak middle-aged complacency never sounded so desperate....

Having read only the first two-and-a-half sentences of the post above, I can say I'm firmly behind the whatever the idea is...on the sole condition that I get to remix it.

Hook me up with the master tapes and I'll get right on it this weekend. Honest.

Well Gnu, don't forget to read the rest of it to digest all the hyperbole first before getting to work on the tapes!!!! ;) :D

Perhaps we can get that lazy bastard Kevin Shields to do a MBV Arkestra Mix of it (like he did with "If They Move Kill 'Em"...) Oh yes!!

Wot Do U Think??!! :)

I know Shug, I know.... All lists are completely pointless and futile - that's why we sad fooks just cannot get enough of them!

As for TPK live, could it be down to the fact that the Order are either: a) too plain fooking lazy to programme their sequencers now that Gillian's left, or b) they're still waiting for the software to arrive so they can finally deliver what we've long been waiting for - the definitive updated FOOK-OFF-BLOW-US-ALL-OUT-OF-THE-WATER version? Here's hoping.....

Its pretty challenging to improve on what is bordering perfection :D

Its essence for me is its wonderful use of what is now antiquated technology, proving that good workman dont blame their tools ;)

The only thing that springs to mind would be a rerecording of the vocals, Barneys voice has continued to improve in my opinion over and over the years - from Run Wild to Crystal its evident that the passion is still their, but his voice holds a wiser almost warmer sound to it now, put that experiance alongside early bright and ambitious NO sounds and we are bordering on a R98 Atmosphere experiance (ok minus the whoops!)

Great great song, i kinda drowned in it though at first due to it appearing about 4 times on my copy of LowLife ;)

Still its all good.... ;)

i don't know if i'd want it remixed. i don't listen to a lot of remixed music, but it seems to me that remixers don't do anything more than put an extra beat behind the song and remove the bass and scramble the guitar parts. i'd rather hear an original cover of it from someone interesting...who knows who cuz i can't imagine anyone doing a good cover of perfect kiss..

Yeah that's exactly the problem with this song...I think it has more obsessive admirers than many other older New Order tunes, that much is probably true. Seems they all want the song to be spared the kind of mauling and desecration that was dealt many others. Think back to that appalling "The Rest Of New Order" remix compilation. The Perfect Kiss was thankfully absent from it. (although Age Of Consent, Bizarre Love Triangle and Everything's Gone Green suffered a complete demolition job - one suspects that a version of TPK may well have existed only to be excluded at the last minute. I shudder at the prospect of some twat like Armand van Helden doing a similar dog's arse of a job on that as he did with BLT).

Like someone said above, maybe it's best not to tamper with perfection. That's a lesson so many people just NEVER ever learn, isn't it?

theres a really fucking cool guitar part near the end that you can barely hear in the original, and is only a bit more audible in kiss of death. in the video you can see him do it... he fucking slashes at the guitar and it goes "CLANG....CLANG..." and so forth. that needs to be louder. i wouldn't fuck too much with the drum sounds, i like those. remove the slap bass intro though, and i will shed no tears. and do NOT delete the last verse.

Hi Martian...

Just a little note to tell I don't forget about you...

Take good care of yourself, my friend.

and by the way, I think I agree on TPK

Hey Buster!! Hi me ole mucker (© ShugZV) !!

Been back on this forum only two weeks or so - after meetin up with some of our onliner buddies in Manchester the other weekend - shame you couldn't make it, as didn't Mario or any of the other Dutch buddies, would loved to have seen you!

How are things with you? Been on the other forum at all? Just to let you know, I'm planning to go to Belgium in the late spring (Ostend), so I may get in touch nearer then - be great to meet up with yer!!!

Til later my friend!

I most certainly have to agree that TPK is as close to musical perfection as possible. W/o bastardizing the original tune too much, I consider Primitive Notion as a nice tribute to TPK - which would explain why its my fav track on GetReady. The song structure is very similar to TPK and, like TPK, I will never tire of hearing it.

As one of those secretive PK obsessives that you mentioned, I'll throw my weight behind a remastered version. This is possibly my fave song ever and I don't want to see it fucked with. A nice clean remaster would refresh it somewhat, but don't freakin touch the beat.. The drum breaks and patterns are magnificent in the original. Re-recording the vocals would be fine, did anyone notice the live (video) version sounds as though Barney has a cold when he sings?

If a remix had to happen, I'd far prefer a Lee Coombs Crystal-style approach, fairly faithful and utilising most of the original elements of the song.

It's been said many a time, especially by Messrs Sloppy G and Johnny G, but the reason they don't give it an airing live anymore is simply that it's a bitch to reprogram.. The quote from sound engineer Richard (?) Lyons was that it would take him 6 months to rework into a respectable live format. Hard to believe but there you go.

:\pimp2:

Roger Lyons will have had six months soon.......I will be so gutted if it isn't played this summer, as it has always been one of the defining New Order tracks. I think it's been summed up perfectly on here in this thread, it is an electronic symphony. I have never tired of hearing it, never will. The original 12" version, the one they used to play live, is just the best. I do like the Hot Tracks remix (available on Audiogalaxy for those who don't have it), as it adds/enhances a few drum bits.

Perfect Kiss ? Perfect :)

T's funny actually because the reason I've been listening to TPK again so much recently (especially my 15 minute mega version) is entirely due to hearing "Here To Stay" for the first time.....blasting out loud on the dancefloor of Aqua bar that wonderful Sat nite with all our Onliner chums a couple of weeks ago in Manchester. I played it again at home a few times and when the chorus comes along (on the radio edit version - the most concise mix of the song IMHO), it seemed to conjure up the same "euphoric" vibe I get when the "I know, you know, we both live[believe] in the land of love..." chorus bit on TPK comes in..... I mean, I detect the keyboards in the background on the HTS chorus, but of course on TPK they're so much more pronounced. My personal gut feeling was to wish that the keyboards on HTS be mixed much more upfront as it would be a great way to recall sound-wise the synths on TPK..... (do I sound too muso here or somethin? Please forgive me if I do...)..thus enhancing the "euphoria" vibe of the track. I'm currently trying to find a way or method of bringing these keyboards on HTS further forward in the mix, but as I'm using such primitive sound editing software, I think the only way is to add a layer of my OWN keyboards to achieve the desired effect, in so doing, basically creating what amounts to (dirty word) a re-mix. Still, I could re-edit the song's length this way and boost it to past the four-and-a-half minute mark. With a band like New Order, when you get songs as great and monumental as The Perfect Kiss, a radio edit is just needless butchering! (check the "Low Life" album edit of this track to see what I mean). The only way to enjoy it is to listen to it in its entirety, but of course, that gave me the license to do a splicing of the A & B-sides to create an even longer mix way back then!! And believe me, it's pure nirvana (no...not THAT one, silly!)

What do others think?? :)

do do de do

Originally posted by ShugZV Busty's backWell done Marty me ole mucker;) It seems we have had to darg you from the rock and the hard place to retrieve BustyGood to see the both of you back where ye's belong

Well, don't know if I'm back, Shug, but I sure pay frequent visits to the site and check on the threads titles...

And once in a while, I just happen to post...

Thanks for the warm welcome back anyway...

Originally posted by Oh Look! There Goes The Laughing Martian Again!! Hey Buster!! Hi me ole mucker (© ShugZV) !! Been back on this forum only two weeks or so - after meetin up with some of our onliner buddies in Manchester the other weekend - shame you couldn't make it, as didn't Mario or any of the other Dutch buddies, would loved to have seen you! How are things with you? Been on the other forum at all? Just to let you know, I'm planning to go to Belgium in the late spring (Ostend), so I may get in touch nearer then - be great to meet up with yer!!! Til later my friend!

As it's been said before, me favorite martian, don't forget to keep me informed when you're passing by...

By the way, Zizou Zidane, are you still planning a visit too ?

Originally posted by Buster Klumpy As it's been said before, me favorite martian, don't forget to keep me informed when you're passing by...

Avec plaisir mon ami...... Defintely will do that matey - I'll keep you posted!! A tout de suite!!

I've never heard perfect kiss... is it any good, then?

Originally posted by false head remove the slap bass intro though, and i will shed no tears. and do NOT delete the last verse.

Yeah, the slap bass intro to the 12" is extremely old hat now, that's why my 15 minute mega edit completely does away with that and begins with the percussion coda of "Perfect Pit" instead, which then cuts into the tumbling drum break prior to the beginning of the sequencer intro proper (this bit appears right after the slap bass solo finishes...)

shit, I'm getting too technical now here aren't I?

"Perfect Kiss" is one of my fave songs too, that;'s for certain. "LowLife" was always my top New Order albumanyway, and 'Sunrise" the best track, though this one isn't that far behind....like you Martin, preferred the full length version as I too didn't like the chopped up edit that was featured on the album.

Funny enough, "Low Life" paradoxicaly has some of the worst edits you'll ever hear on a New Order album. "Elegia" is badly cut up as well, especially considering the original version was some 15 miuntes long anyway.

It'd be great to hear your 15 minute mega-version anyway Mart.

Originally posted by Major Tarantino I've never heard perfect kiss... is it any good, then?

I though you were supposed to have taken two weeks off from posting on this forum to learn to play and programme the bastard thing! :D :D :D :D

Tut tut tut........

Don't tell me you haven't done this, my lad !!! ;)

Originally posted by Hubert Mickle "Perfect Kiss" is one of my fave songs too, that;'s for certain. "LowLife" was always my top New Order albumanyway, and 'Sunrise" the best track, though this one isn't that far behind....like you Martin, preferred the full length version as I too didn't like the chopped up edit that was featured on the album. It'd be great to hear your 15 minute mega-version anyway Mart.

Yeah, will do, as soon as I've fathomed out how to get a TAPED recording converted to a digital file on a computer, then slowed down to the correct bloody speed as I'm sure when I originally recorded it from vinyl onto tape it was mastered far too bleeding fast. Barney sounds like a smurf at some points.... fook me, why does technology hate me so much???!!! :(

Originally posted by Oh Look! There Goes The Laughing Martian Again!! Yeah that's exactly the problem with this song...I think it has more obsessive admirers than many other older New Order tunes, that much is probably true. Seems they all want the song to be spared the kind of mauling and desecration that was dealt many others. Think back to that appalling "The Rest Of New Order" remix compilation. The Perfect Kiss was thankfully absent from it. (although Age Of Consent, Bizarre Love Triangle and Everything's Gone Green suffered a complete demolition job - one suspects that a version of TPK may well have existed only to be excluded at the last minute. I shudder at the prospect of some twat like Armand van Helden doing a similar dog's arse of a job on that as he did with BLT).Like someone said above, maybe it's best not to tamper with perfection. That's a lesson so many people just NEVER ever learn, isn't it?

Many interesting points here. Although PK is not on my short list of favs, I'm not sure if a new jazzed up version would do that much. But, I like True Faith, and then the newer jazed up version of it made me like it much more. I guess I'm afaird of the 6 required remixes that would accompany a re-release.

Originally posted by Oh Look! There Goes The Laughing Martian Again!! > Originally posted by Major Tarantino> I've never heard perfect kiss... is it any good, then?

I though you were supposed to have taken two weeks off from posting on this forum to learn to play and programme the bastard thing! :D :D :D :D

Tut tut tut........

Don't tell me you haven't done this, my lad !!! ;)

I started doing it but then i decided to make a 17 minute loop of me saying "its perfect" into a vocoder while brushing my teeth. :D

Hello Marty, old fellow. Good to see you back! And on form as well:D As for TPK: leave it alone!! The original, that's what it's all about(for me). Remixes...god what a waste of time they usually are! To me nothing can beat the original, and as soon a remix has been made by DJsix-pack-fly-on-the-wall, it's a new song that has got absolutely nothing to do with NEW ORDER. But this is just my modest opinion, there might be people with different ones, i guess:D

Originally posted by Oh Look! There Goes The Laughing Martian Again!! > shit, I'm getting too technical now here aren't I?

Why heavens no. The only thing that keeps me scrolling through all of these football/soccer posts is the hope that I may blessed to stumble across a post like yours, debating the subtle nuances of Michael Johnson's hi-hat mike placement vs. Steven Hague's. Seriously.

As for Mr. Shields, have you heard his remix of Placebo's "Pure Morning?" I think he just blasted the original CD through his Marshall stack and rerecorded it. Naw, I definitely think I'm the one to handle tpk2002.

Originally posted by Hubert Mickle Funny enough, "Low Life" paradoxicaly has some of the worst edits you'll ever hear on a New Order album.

But the bad edits really peaked on PCL (on 586).

"I heard you KUH...Erd you...Curd you KUH...CUH erd you calling."

Listening to that again, there's some neat chinka-chinka muted guitar strumming toward the end I never noticed...and some really ill-timed snare fills. Sloppy as hell and still 15 billion times better than Republic.

Yer DEAD RIGHT about 5-8-6!!!! Ha ha ha ha!! - you really are the most sharp-eared obsessive around aren't you!!! Top one! I've no problem with that! Only last month I bought the Les Temps Moderne reissue of a classic Factory album by The Wake called "Here Comes Everybody" which has never to date been issued on CD. Said CD was mastered direct from Vinyl as fooking Factory lost their master tapes (surprise surprise!!) so when you listen to this CD you can hear straight away the off-centre spindle effect of a vinyl recording. And it's almost impossible to listen to without grimacing!!! Eeeewwww. I'm so pissed off about that as it now spoils my appreciation of the tracks: the sound quality is awful!! I have an exceedingly keen ear for anything that sounds remotely off-centre. I can pick up disturbances from absolutely anywhere if the air is quiet. My ears can be like fooking radar when they feel like it....which is an exceedingly strange thing to hear from a drummer, isn't it???

By the way Gnu, without sounding like a fooking muso/poser (I sincerely hope NOT!!) I can actually replicate - by playing my drum kit LIVE - the WHOLE of that "5-8-6" drum-track (complete with tom fills ON TOP OF the snare fills) towards the end just with one pair of drumsticks, and STILL keep in time. Ditto the last minute of "The Village". :D My next challenge is to replicate the stuttering kick drum pattern of "Blue Monday" at its proper BPM speed, using only ONE foot pedal instead of cheating like most people by using both double kick pedals.

Originally posted by mario Hello Marty, old fellow. Good to see you back! And on form as well:DAs for TPK: leave it alone!! The original, that's what it's all about(for me). Remixes...god what a waste of time they usually are! To me nothing can beat the original, and as soon a remix has been made by DJsix-pack-fly-on-the-wall, it's a new song that has got absolutely nothing to do with NEW ORDER.But this is just my modest opinion, there might be people with different ones, i guess:D

Hey, Mario!! good to see you pop up every now and then! Don't worry about what I said about TPK - I DON'T want any new remixes per se, so to speak. Cos I know damn sure, like yourself, what would happen if this GODLIKE song was to be thrown to the lions !! The only remixes are the near-14 minute (I timed it yesterday and I have to confess my earlier proclamation of 15 minutes was a bit exaggerated!! More like 13.53....) edit MAXI version I myself did with the original 12". I just hope it could find itself reissued but remastered WITHOUT ANY CHOPPING AND DICKING ABOUT (other than my old version of course!) if the long-promised box set of singles ever appears. The versions on Substance are also edited down a bit too, which is why I'm none too happy with those!! This song is damn well untouchable. Long may it remain that way..... (perhaps that's why the band cannot ever play it live anymore???)

Originally posted by Major Tarantino > Originally posted by Oh Look! There Goes The Laughing Martian Again!!> > > > Originally posted by Major Tarantino> > I've never heard perfect kiss... is it any good, then?>

I though you were supposed to have taken two weeks off from posting on this forum to learn to play and programme the bastard thing! :D :D :D :D

Tut tut tut........

Don't tell me you haven't done this, my lad !!! ;)

I started doing it but then i decided to make a 17 minute loop of me saying "its perfect" into a vocoder while brushing my teeth. :D

You wag!! How much spray did the microphone take before it packed in for good then??? Or did you construct a little cocktail-umbrella for it to shield it from your spittle? :D :D

Phew! for a moment there I thought you were talkign about a remix/rerelease as awful as those 60mph ones then. After reading all the replies here thank god my fears were not realised. I agree with everyone here who says this song must be left alone as it is one of the most powerfull New order songs of all time and deserves to be treated with respect - even the video does the song justice - something which none of the other New Order videos seems to do (I actually dislike most of them as they're just nonsensical with hardly a decent script beytween them - though the "Touched by the Hand of God' one is funny!).

Here's a nice chance happening - was at a cafe in town on lunchbreak with a couple of colleagues today, one of these trendy sort of continental cafes. Guess what album was on the jukebox? Yup - "LowLife"! and "The Perfect Kiss" was the song just starting up as we entered. Nice one.!! :) I refused to budge until I'd heard the last strains of "Sooner Than You Think". Needless to say, I was later than I thought getting back to my desk - eight minutes !! - but that's a small price to pay for half- an hour of musical genius!!

Fate can be a wonderful thing sometimes!!

Originally posted by Todd (Ben Sweeney) Phew! for a moment there I thought you were talkign about a remix/rerelease as awful as those 60mph ones then. After reading all the replies here thank god my fears were not realised. I agree with everyone here who says this song must be left alone as it is one of the most powerfull New order songs of all time and deserves to be treated with respect - even the video does the song justice - something which none of the other New Order videos seems to do (I actually dislike most of them as they're just nonsensical with hardly a decent script beytween them - though the "Touched by the Hand of God' one is funny!).

Well Todd, have I got news for you - Paul van Dyk has remixed TPK and is planning to get London Records release a version of it as a white label only 12" to give to clubs for this year's Creamfields event. ;) ;)

all i say is go barny on the cow bell

Or Barmy on the Cowbell even.... :D

Maybe we could get New Order to do an updated version of the original 12-minute TPK video - albeit nearly 20 years on - as a compare and contrast exercise. That'll be a good opportunity to coax Gillian back into the fold.....

Mind you, this would have to be a w-i-d-e-s-c-r-e-e-n production if only to allow for the sheer amount of flab that has infiltrated the NO camp of late of course! :D :D :D

Originally posted by Spotnick One sad thing is they removed it from their playlist for the first time. At least Temptation is still there.Temptation is the other "cult" song that was never remixed except the CJ Bolland mix which is available only on a TAPE somewhere from the rest of I think? or maybe on vinyl.. but does that count?The song is good, but it's typical, this song can get on many people's nerves because of Bernard and his voice, he's going pretty high in that song, and that usually is not something he should do too often...The only "remix" of TPK is "Kiss of Death" which would have been wonderful is it had the full lyrics.

Point taken, Nic, but what I've always found funny is, the album from which "The Perfect Kiss" is taken, "Low-Life", actually features a lot of unbelievably off-key singing from Bernard!! Amazing to relate, but "Love Vigilantes" has him warbling off key on all the verses, "SubCulture" likewise, "Face Up" is so badly sung it's hilarious!! And "Perfect Kiss" like you say, sees him straining to reach the high notes (all three of them!!).
But common consensus has it that the reason "Low-Life" makes everyone's list - if not the definitive critic's choice as best New Order album - is mainly through two things: it's pretty diverse - in mood and in sound, each of its eight tracks are quite different from one another. It's also, crucially, New Order's most human record....made doubly more so by Barney's off-key (emotive perhaps?) singing....!!! Interesting to relate, don't you think?

Wow - I've just happened across this excelently informative thread from the archives by typing "The Perfect Kiss" into the search function.... I've just been listening to the fantastic 'video' version of this track on the bonus disc of RETRO and it's made me realise why this song is held in such high reguard by so many people on this forum.

Hearing it once again - and reading all the posts here has now made me appreaciate the track even more. I can see why this track has been left relatively untouched by remixers, because its such a brilliant song that you cant really improve on it can you.?

Still a bit shortchanged that the best they could do was to include the edited version on disc 1 of RETRO yet again. :(

Everytime I hear the edited version, I put the entire disc on pause and whip out the 8:42 version and crank it up. Simple as that

By the way, I love reading really long threads only to discover they were from April

In the recent 'final' poll, I voted for TF (which shall always be my all time favourite song)but was surprised at the depth of passion for TPK. Don't get me wrong, I have always liked TPK but to find so many people voting for it was unexpected to me.

I have just been flicking through the Retro discs & boy is it good to hear the full on 'live video' mix blaring outta my stereo as I 'fly' down the motorway (freeway/autobahn.)

Someone summed it up exactly with the 'electronic symphony' comment earlier. It is simply a masterpiece - let's hope that engineer guy has a few months spare to programme it ready for the gigs around the next album. :) :) :) :) :)

Of course, I almost forgot to say that the video of this song is also one of the most effective examples of New Orders simple understated genius. Watching the four of them goiing through the song, deep in concentration, you begin to get a grasp on the intensity of the experience....matched by the music toward the end. ... fantastic!

Yup. It's a top notch New Order choon is TPK.

Say no more.