Observations while listening to Substance

Four summers on from first saturating my mind with this record, Subculture, Shellshock, and State of the Nation still nag at my ear. Mind you all, not always in a negative way. I find myself singing along, even to the most naff lyrics. I think what has bothered me about these tracks is the overloaded production, and there is probably pretty steady consensus on this board about that issue. But particularly what is at fault is the lack of space that was so essential to Joy Division's records and most of New Order's early singles and first three albums. Whereas the Perfect Kiss is textured masterfully, Shellshock has a cacaphonous, masturbatory ending. It seems New Order during this brief period threw their songs in the melting pot of arrangements, rather than methodically discerning which elements best constituted the song. As compositions, I don't think Shellshock and Subculture inherently suck*. Instead, they just weren't recorded and mixed with a clear head**.

*The jury is still out on State of the Nation.

**Stupid reference to the drug-intake is totally intentional.

Bear in mind these are remixes and/or extended 12" single versions, and that sort of kitchen sink mentality was very much in vogue at the time.

Also, "Shellshock" was written and recorded in a day...not a lot of room for refinement there.

£50 Note wrote: Bear in mind these are remixes and/or extended 12" single versions, and that sort of kitchen sink mentality was very much in vogue at the time.

Also, "Shellshock" was written and recorded in a day...not a lot of room for refinement there.

I did bear both in my mind before making my post. Nonetheless, the band consented/participated in these projects for their songs, and it's not like Factory or Qwest were vicious corporate enterprises pressing for these sort of A-sides.

JV wrote: I did bear both in my mind before making my post. Nonetheless, the band consented/participated in these projects for their songs, and it's not like Factory or Qwest were vicious corporate enterprises pressing for these sort of A-sides.

I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. I always skip Subculture and usually skip State Of The Nation too. The original Subculture is amazing so I'm willing to blame John Robie's participation for that remix and Shellshock being so difficult. State Of The Nation is just a weird, off-kilter track to begin with and should never have been a single.

The only song that I usually don't listen to very much is John Robie's "remixed" version of "Subculture". There's some really good songs on there...and it's one of my favourite albums.

they weren't afraid to try stuff out and collaborate with interesting producers. There was also a definite attempt to move away from the JD/early NO sound.

You will find no shortage of 'JOHN ROBIE MUST DIE' posters on this site,I'm sure you know that already,but as one of my esteemed fellow NOOLers has already pointed out,that particular style was much in vogue in the 80's,so as much as I hate the remixed Subculture & not too keen on Shellshock altho' it's a decent song,they were a sign of the times.

A 7 line sentence! Do I win a prize??!! It was 7 lines when I was writing it!

I was standing outside my room and I clearly heard female vocals in Procession.

£50 Note wrote:

JV wrote: I did bear both in my mind before making my post. Nonetheless, the band consented/participated in these projects for their songs, and it's not like Factory or Qwest were vicious corporate enterprises pressing for these sort of A-sides.

I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. I always skip Subculture and usually skip State Of The Nation too. The original Subculture is amazing so I'm willing to blame John Robie's participation for that remix and Shellshock being so difficult. State Of The Nation is just a weird, off-kilter track to begin with and should never have been a single.

See, I've felt neither version of Subculture to be satisfying. By default I'll go with the Singles version because it's more succinct than Substance's (even though it's still Robie) and Bernard's vocal is better than the one on Low-Life.

JV wrote:

£50 Note wrote:

JV wrote: I did bear both in my mind before making my post. Nonetheless, the band consented/participated in these projects for their songs, and it's not like Factory or Qwest were vicious corporate enterprises pressing for these sort of A-sides.

I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. I always skip Subculture and usually skip State Of The Nation too. The original Subculture is amazing so I'm willing to blame John Robie's participation for that remix and Shellshock being so difficult. State Of The Nation is just a weird, off-kilter track to begin with and should never have been a single.

See, I've felt neither version of Subculture to be satisfying. By default I'll go with the Singles version because it's more succinct than Substance's (even though it's still Robie) and Bernard's vocal is better than the one on Low-Life.

Should that be "Bernard's" vocals (ahem...)?

Andy

i was watching neworderstory the other night and there was a section where they played subculture and state... right at that moment, i thought "this production is fantastic." you might call it kitchen sink, but i'd say that it is abstract, almost impressionistic. none of the peices really make sense outside of the whole. little keyboard stabs, stuttery percussion, inconsistent guitars... it's not the most beautiful production, in fact, it's a bit sloppy... but it does have a certain arty charm that even songs as overloaded (i like overload) as perfect kiss and true faith can't claim. i don't quite put the subculture mix in the same class (that's not a recommendation or a warning), but i must say that i really don't get the hatred for john robie. subculture takes a rather anemic album track and pumps it up into some sort of crazed, over-the-top bit of forward-looking techno-pop. meh. i really like this period of new order. it's not their best as songwriters, but as producers, it certainly is interesting, and it's to new order's testament that 12 years into fandom, i'm still finding fascinating corners of their work. bam.

Mr Discography wrote:

JV wrote:

£50 Note wrote:

JV wrote: I did bear both in my mind before making my post. Nonetheless, the band consented/participated in these projects for their songs, and it's not like Factory or Qwest were vicious corporate enterprises pressing for these sort of A-sides.

I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. I always skip Subculture and usually skip State Of The Nation too. The original Subculture is amazing so I'm willing to blame John Robie's participation for that remix and Shellshock being so difficult. State Of The Nation is just a weird, off-kilter track to begin with and should never have been a single.

See, I've felt neither version of Subculture to be satisfying. By default I'll go with the Singles version because it's more succinct than Substance's (even though it's still Robie) and Bernard's vocal is better than the one on Low-Life.

Should that be "Bernard's" vocals (ahem...)?

Andy

Do you mean to suggest this was a case of auto-tuning the vocals? When did this become common technical practice in recording studios? Or are you referring to the backup vocals?

Substance 1987 is my "party" album. I never get any complaints from my friends when I play it, and all of the tracks sound really good on my bass heavy system. I actually kinda dig alot of the remixes.

Mr Discography wrote:

JV wrote:

£50 Note wrote:

JV wrote: I did bear both in my mind before making my post. Nonetheless, the band consented/participated in these projects for their songs, and it's not like Factory or Qwest were vicious corporate enterprises pressing for these sort of A-sides.

I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. I always skip Subculture and usually skip State Of The Nation too. The original Subculture is amazing so I'm willing to blame John Robie's participation for that remix and Shellshock being so difficult. State Of The Nation is just a weird, off-kilter track to begin with and should never have been a single.

See, I've felt neither version of Subculture to be satisfying. By default I'll go with the Singles version because it's more succinct than Substance's (even though it's still Robie) and Bernard's vocal is better than the one on Low-Life.

Should that be "Bernard's" vocals (ahem...)?

Andy

Why has he got more than one?

Subculture was good live to start with, but neither of the recorded versions do the song justice. In fact, the Robie effort is a real blot on their musical CV.

Shellshock is great! It's really cleverly done, and to me one of their best songs from this period, which wasn't the songwriting highlight of their career. Besides BLT, True Faith and maybe 1963 there wasn't a lot of quality between Low Life and Technique, far too many half-assed guitar numbers that all sounded like something else they'd done.

JV wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

Should that be "Bernard's" vocals (ahem...)?

Andy

Do you mean to suggest this was a case of auto-tuning the vocals? When did this become common technical practice in recording studios? Or are you referring to the backup vocals?

There's this rumour that when they recorded the remix they had someone who sounded like Bernard to sing the lead vocal on it, not Bernard himself. Think there's an old thread of it here somewhere, I just can't find it right now.

Also agreeing with Monkey on both studio versions of Subculture undermining the potential of the song. The biggest gripe for me is the messy production on the hypnotic arpeggios in the verses that Gillian played so beautifully live.

Errrrr.....Gillian triggered a sequence live, rather than playing any arpeggios!

oldmonkey wrote: Subculture was good live to start with, but neither of the recorded versions do the song justice. In fact, the Robie effort is a real blot on their musical CV.

Shellshock is great! It's really cleverly done, and to me one of their best songs from this period, which wasn't the songwriting highlight of their career. Besides BLT, True Faith and maybe 1963 there wasn't a lot of quality between Low Life and Technique, far too many half-assed guitar numbers that all sounded like something else they'd done.

So Brotherhood gets low marks from you, Tim?

JV wrote:

oldmonkey wrote: Subculture was good live to start with, but neither of the recorded versions do the song justice. In fact, the Robie effort is a real blot on their musical CV.

Shellshock is great! It's really cleverly done, and to me one of their best songs from this period, which wasn't the songwriting highlight of their career. Besides BLT, True Faith and maybe 1963 there wasn't a lot of quality between Low Life and Technique, far too many half-assed guitar numbers that all sounded like something else they'd done.

So Brotherhood gets low marks from you, Tim?

You couldn't give me a free copy!

oldmonkey wrote:

JV wrote:

oldmonkey wrote: Subculture was good live to start with, but neither of the recorded versions do the song justice. In fact, the Robie effort is a real blot on their musical CV.

Shellshock is great! It's really cleverly done, and to me one of their best songs from this period, which wasn't the songwriting highlight of their career. Besides BLT, True Faith and maybe 1963 there wasn't a lot of quality between Low Life and Technique, far too many half-assed guitar numbers that all sounded like something else they'd done.

So Brotherhood gets low marks from you, Tim?

You couldn't give me a free copy!

Ouch. I can see why some complain about the production, but I think it's a pretty good batch of songs.

Too many of them are half-assed though, Every Little Counts, Weirdo and Way Of Life aren't proper songs, are they? ELC is a joke, and Way Of Life is them apeing two of their earlier tunes. It almost sounds like they ran out of ideas and got a bit desperate.

oldmonkey wrote:

JV wrote:

oldmonkey wrote: Subculture was good live to start with, but neither of the recorded versions do the song justice. In fact, the Robie effort is a real blot on their musical CV.

Shellshock is great! It's really cleverly done, and to me one of their best songs from this period, which wasn't the songwriting highlight of their career. Besides BLT, True Faith and maybe 1963 there wasn't a lot of quality between Low Life and Technique, far too many half-assed guitar numbers that all sounded like something else they'd done.

So Brotherhood gets low marks from you, Tim?

You couldn't give me a free copy!

so i'm guessing you don't own it then? ;)

oldmonkey wrote: Too many of them are half-assed though, Every Little Counts, Weirdo and Way Of Life aren't proper songs, are they? ELC is a joke, and Way Of Life is them apeing two of their earlier tunes. It almost sounds like they ran out of ideas and got a bit desperate.

Weirdo is one of my faves from the record. The guitar attack suggests instant pogo with Steve's insistent drums, and Hooky's bass runs at the end are some of my favorite. Not melodically any different from his best work, but it has its own character within the song.

I enjoy the way Every Little Counts sounds on Glastonbury 87. Soaring synths at the close, and spatially more appealing in a live atmosphere. Nice tribute to Walk on the Wild Side.

Brotherhood does at least contain AIIWIW, All the Way, BLT, and Angel Dust (one of their most criminally underrated songs). Not too shabby. I still think the acoustical guitary numbers on Brotherhood are better than those on Technique.

AgentWood wrote:

oldmonkey wrote:

JV wrote:

oldmonkey wrote: Subculture was good live to start with, but neither of the recorded versions do the song justice. In fact, the Robie effort is a real blot on their musical CV.

Shellshock is great! It's really cleverly done, and to me one of their best songs from this period, which wasn't the songwriting highlight of their career. Besides BLT, True Faith and maybe 1963 there wasn't a lot of quality between Low Life and Technique, far too many half-assed guitar numbers that all sounded like something else they'd done.

So Brotherhood gets low marks from you, Tim?

You couldn't give me a free copy!

so i'm guessing you don't own it then? ;)

Well I had to buy it to find out how shit it was, and then bought a CD version to chcek if it was just my vinyl copy playing up!

His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Brotherhood does at least contain AIIWIW, All the Way, BLT, and Angel Dust (one of their most criminally underrated songs). Not too shabby. I still think the acoustical guitary numbers on Brotherhood are better than those on Technique.

All The Way is on Technique.

Another observation:- Why the fcuk did Dubvulture get to be on it,but Bizarre Dub Triangle got missed off? Never liked Shellshock,it's always sounded like a Heaven 17 outtake.And both the Lowlife version and Record Mirror Remix of Subculture are far better than Robie's.

JOHN ROBIE MUST DIET!

JV wrote:

His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Brotherhood does at least contain AIIWIW, All the Way, BLT, and Angel Dust (one of their most criminally underrated songs). Not too shabby. I still think the acoustical guitary numbers on Brotherhood are better than those on Technique.

All The Way is on Technique.

Sorry, I meant All Day Long.

His Holiness, The Pope wrote:

JV wrote:

His Holiness, The Pope wrote: Brotherhood does at least contain AIIWIW, All the Way, BLT, and Angel Dust (one of their most criminally underrated songs). Not too shabby. I still think the acoustical guitary numbers on Brotherhood are better than those on Technique.

All The Way is on Technique.

Sorry, I meant All Day Long.

Which I agree is excellent.

Where Montys Dare wrote: Another observation:- Why the fcuk did Dubvulture get to be on it,but Bizarre Dub Triangle got missed off? Never liked Shellshock,it's always sounded like a Heaven 17 outtake.And both the Lowlife version and Record Mirror Remix of Subculture are far better than Robie's.

JOHN ROBIE MUST DIET!

I completely agree that! Shellshock is the only song I skip through, on the "album" that I think was NOs defining moment.