State of the Nation

Bearing in mind that I respect the varied differences of opinion of my fellow NOOLers,& of life in general,Im starting to get a little bit pissed at the constant berating of SOTN.So I'm gonna spill some vitriol.Seeing as tho',it seems,that quite a few of the posters on this site are barely out of school & are 5 minute 'fans' at that,let's go back to 1985 & see where N.O. were at.SOTN was written before Shellshock & around the same time as Subculture but came out as a single after both.So if we move it back as if it was released after TPK,that itself after Thieves,it is definately linked & a natural progression.I was already a N.O. fan of 3 years by then & did not feel whatsoever that it was a 'change in direction' or 'oh my god,what is this',as I did with Shellshock.All the classic N.O. elements that make a N.O. song are there,so respect it as that,& not as something that doesn't fit.Opinions respected,it just puzzles me

It's alright, but it's just too repetitive at times. I do like the intro when the drums kick in too. I just prefer most of the other songs over it.

The old saying springs to mind..Some do,some don't,so fuck.

I never listen to SOTN and think its a bit shit,but that's only my opinion...Heck, I even like Slow Jam somewhat,which is probably more unpopular than SOTN round these parts.However I don't particularly mind New Order fans slaggin Slow Jam or any other song,can be amusing even ...But like you say Mark, we must accept and respect eachothers right to like or dislike.Just the way it is.

Is there anyone who genuinely loves every song The Order have ever done? I'd doubt it.

Just to clarify..State of the Nation is gash

I agree wholeheartedly about the point on opinion,as I already pointed out,but that's not my point.It's aboutperspective for one thing,but mainly about some 5 minute wonders slagging it for not being a N.O. song,which is why I wanted,for those that can,place yourself back to'85/'86,and then tell me that it isn't related to,or a natural progression from Thieves or TPK,or whatever you want to describe it as.It's not about liking or disliking it,but there's more N.O. D.N.A. in it than Rock the Shack or Working Overtime can ever dream of having.It's N.O. being N.O. rather than N.O. being someone else

Being of the younger generation it's nice to have that point of reference for when State of the Nation was actually composed. Aesthetically I feel like it has stuff in common with both Subculture and Angel Dust-kind of bridging the more dance-oriented elements of LowLife and Brotherhood perhaps? Was it released as a single before or after Brotherhood came out?

Just before,but it was already 12 months old by then.Probably waiting for the Saville sleeve......... It was written/recorded,according to Steve,to impress the Japanese while they were there,showing them how they used technology to compose & record.But yeh,I agree,it's in perspective of other tracks written around the same time,or at least in the '85/'86 period,but produced by N.O. themselves.Sick of saying it now,but it's just opinion,not everybody hears things the same way:\ohwell:

I think it's fantastic. Great blend of electronics and heavy guitars. Love it.

Mark, I'm 85 and have trouble controlling my bowels, so a 5-minute fan I ain't. However, I have to say that on the NO 'Crock of Shit' Scale SOTN does indeed rank up there with some of the best(worst?) howlers. It isn't as bad as Dracula's Castle but it's certainly no Regret.

However, for my sins, I absolutely adore WiM. As you say, it's a perception-thing and 1990 happened to be the best year of my life (so far), as did 1991 so it happened, and also 2001...

and wht the fcuk has it been tacked onto the end of the Brotherhood nowadays ?

i remember being bored of SOTN rather quickly, and i doubt many thought it was a cutting edge dance track at the time... and quite frankly the female vocals are lame whether it is 1986, 1996, 2006...

I first heard it in 1987 (when I bought Substance) - didn't think much of it then...

Oh yeah, I'm 35! :)

personally i think its great but who have to be in a certain mood for it

its not like Temptation where whatever the mood your in it fits in with it perfectly

it also doesn't do well on low volume but cracked up really high its a fucking beast its hard to beat

but im one of the just outta school kids just had my 1st week at collage

but im wondering could you recoment any Crispy Ambulance please??

my ears aren't over 40 years old yet. does my opinion count?

It's my fave New Order lyrics ever. Detractors can suck my cock! "I don't kiss when you're around...."

It's my fave New Order lyrics ever. Detractors can suck my cock! "I don't kiss when you're around...."

Even better then Age of Consent ?

It's merely ok for me. Lite summer funk; there's this Finnish Adult Contemporary band that plays stuff similar to SOTN. The only things that lift SOTN above that muck for me are:

The intro Barney's passable Nile Rodgerisms Hooky's basswork throughout (although it's far from his most memorable) The outro - decent dramatic effect

I don't think one could say this is a proper step in NO's evolution though. Where the hell could one go after TPK, the ultimate masterpiece, anyway? You can't go up so you either go down or sideways (= diversifying the approach, which is what happened especially on Brotherhood).

noorder (aka Barcaboy99) wrote: It isn't as bad as Dracula's Castle but it's certainly no Regret.

AKA BARCABOY'99 and Dracula's Castle slagging.. who'd ever a thunk it?!;) certainly State of The Nation is not the slinky Ruined in a Day or have the ease of Age of Consent for example.

But it does have a great Intro, it is from'those Early great years. and have some great lyrics through the verses. all the elements of classic New Order. PH Bass and SM Drums. just too many of them all at once. all in the same song and an almost painful to the ears chorus.

I'm in the mid30something age group. Not from England and was in NO and JD happy clubbing overload around 86-89 so the song stuck out as whoa, too many things going on. That was then. the perception stands. and it is perhaps the vinyl that I'll consistently see in the used shops. albeit all very used copies. But 'in stock and for sale nonetheless.

I'm still in school and i think its fookin boss

For me, its got all the elements of a great NO song and the last minute or so is tremendous

Rick Banks wrote: but im wondering could you recoment any Crispy Ambulance please??

The Plateau Phase is pretty good.

14 K wrote:

noorder (aka Barcaboy99) wrote: It isn't as bad as Dracula's Castle but it's certainly no Regret.

AKA BARCABOY'99 and Dracula's Castle slagging.. who'd ever a thunk it?!;)

Slagging of DC, who moi? It never crossed my mind...

[brown]Ally[/brown] wrote:

mark kelly wrote: Seeing as tho',it seems,that quite a few of the posters on this site are barely out of school & are 5 minute 'fans' at that,let's go back to 1985 & see where N.O. were at.

I was already a N.O. fan of 3 years by then

Pulling rank in the "how long you've been a NO fan" stakes means fuck all to most people around here, and rightly so. Probably not the best way to make new mates in these parts either Next you'll be saying how the London albums just don't measure up to the Factory ones? Go on! Prove me right

Mind you, at least you can say "I was [insert location] when State Of The Nation was released" with erm, pride. Probably. I was 5 at the time personally.

P.S. It's a shit song and has dated horribly.

P.P.S. In my opinion.

Not 'pulling rank' as you call it at all,or would't compromise an opinion just to 'make friends',but merely pointing out that SOTN has to be put into it's own perspective from it's own time rather than,say,a recent N.O. fan could before slagging it off for being such a 'departure' as some people seem to view it.I mean,was it really? Everybody agrees that some songs just don't age well,Shellshock & Subculture 12" probably being two,but even tho' it's slagged off to fuck now,Subculture wasn't at the time.It's the 'p' word again.

& to make you feel better,compared to the Factory albums,the London ones suck :happytongue:

I personally felt,at the time,& still do,that Confusion was more of a departure from the N.O. sound than what SOTN was to Thieves or TPK,or even Shellshock was from TPK.

I liked State of the Nation for about 5 months in 1985, because it was new and different, but I was sick of it by the time of the early 86 gigs. That said, listening to one or two recordings recently, it was usually one of the songs they played well. It'll still never get on any oldmonkey Top 20s though!

I love the song. It was one of the first five songs that actually got me into the band (the other four being, respectively, True Faith, Bizarre Love Triangle, Your Silent Face and Doubts Even Here). It was these five songs that showed me how diverse the band could be, and convinced me to buy my first New Order CD, Substance (actually, the first CD I bought was (the rest of), strictly for the remix of World, but whatever, we'll pretend it wasn't ;)).

*cough*

POINT BEING, (hehe) I will always defend this song with everything I have. Dated or not, it's still fucking cool!

It´s a rather crap song. Still was issued as a single which is one of life´s big puzzles.
Nevertheless - was Barney trying to bring a message across? - State of the Nation - Brings England into disgrace or something. It´s not on par with Regret, Temptation or other big NO songs.

Razed In A New Division Of Agony wrote: (actually, the first CD I bought was (the rest of), strictly for the remix of World, but whatever, we'll pretend it wasn't ;)). *cough*

POINT BEING, (hehe) I will always defend this song with everything I have. Dated or not, it's still fucking cool!

'cough is Right..ouch WORLD?! There is a song that can get even more stick than STOTN..! Logan Razed in a New.. your work with C2HERE TO STAY was-is excellent. Enjoying it. and Happy B-Day 2006! agreed the Perfecto Mix of World is or was good. a further aside still is that The Felix daHousecat Mix of HTS has nothing on your Here To Stay.;)

Barcaboy'99 never crossed your mind. Sure. There have almost been as many threads slagging State as there have been against Dracula's Castle. possible to consolidate them off to the Music For (non)Pleasure forum perhaps.

thanks ive got sissorgun on order from hmv

my fave would have to be concorde square

Put simply, its a quality song.

People may be bored of it but Id rather put the emphasis on the fact that they are boring individuals.

NO Regret wrote: Put simply, its a quality song.

People may be bored of it but Id rather put the emphasis on the fact that they are boring individuals.

Is that right?

NO Regret wrote: Put simply, its a quality song.

People may be bored of it but Id rather put the emphasis on the fact that they are boring individuals.

Hooky's a boring individual???!!! Mmmmmmm.....

I've always liked it. Nice mix of 80's style sequencing with some nice Barney guitar.

It is dated, but so am I.

14 K wrote:

Razed In A New Division Of Agony wrote: (actually, the first CD I bought was (the rest of), strictly for the remix of World, but whatever, we'll pretend it wasn't ;)). *cough*

POINT BEING, (hehe) I will always defend this song with everything I have. Dated or not, it's still fucking cool!

'cough is Right..ouch WORLD?! There is a song that can get even more stick than STOTN..! Logan Razed in a New.. your work with C2HERE TO STAY was-is excellent. Enjoyed it.

Barcaboy'99 never crossed your mind. Sure. There have almost as many threads slagging State as there have been against Dracula's Castle. possible to consolidate them off to the Music For (non) Pleasure forum perhaps.

Thank you for the kind words. :) Yeah, I used to really like World because of the Perfecto Mix. The organ part is too cool. I have gotten bored of it though. Of course, I still loved the cover by Horse In Retirement for C2. ;)

I have to admit you do have to put SOTN in perspective. It is a song of its time and compared to the Stock Aitken Waterman garbage of the time and the soft rock shite of groups like Whitesnake it is an utter gem.

However, I think Hooky hit the nail on the head in an MTV interview about 13 years ago when he said he looks on NO albums as one long line of work. In that respect SOTN is trough between the artistic peaks of Every Little Counts and Fine Time.

Let's face it, even the fookin Beatles let Ringo sing and write a song on each album. Anyone for Octopus's Garden?...

mark kelly wrote:

NO Regret wrote: Put simply, its a quality song.

People may be bored of it but Id rather put the emphasis on the fact that they are boring individuals.

Hooky's a boring individual???!!! Mmmmmmm.....

Hookys only human and therefore has faults like everyone. Im sure there are times when others think of him as being boring.

oldmonkey wrote:

NO Regret wrote: Put simply, its a quality song.

People may be bored of it but Id rather put the emphasis on the fact that they are boring individuals.

Is that right?

Now I know why I'm as square as a rubix cube.It's because State of the Nation is shite.Thanks for sorting that one out

I don't buy into the whole 'SOTN is crap' malarkey. I actually quite like the song, and find it a pleasure to listen to at times. That Hooky bass line during the verses, some intense synth throughout the song, it's actually really quite good in my opinion.

No joke at all, and the band members themselves must of liked it otherwise they wouldn't of released it. People talk as if it's some unreleasable crap. Now there is some crap from NO of course, but to be honest SOTN really isn't that crap.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's ripe for a remix. I'd love to hear a version without the female backing vocals - just Barney talking with himself (and if he could lose the death inflation line too, that would juuuuuuuuuust fine).

Sly and Robbie, anyone?

Ahem.

Jonny Donepoindatgunname wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's ripe for a remix. I'd love to hear a version without the female backing vocals - just Barney talking with himself (and if he could lose the death inflation line too, that would juuuuuuuuuust fine).

Sly and Robbie, anyone?

Ahem.

I second that actually. A new remix would do the track fine and prove it's not shite to those fans who think dated material is garbage. It's not garbage, and I don't think it's dated either. It's just so different from everything else at the era, I think some fans feel betrayed, especially with it being between two dance singles. I think it was brave of them to put out a non-dance single in a time where non-dance music was being shunned in clubs.

Jonny Donepoindatgunname wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's ripe for a remix. I'd love to hear a version without the female backing vocals - just Barney talking with himself (and if he could lose the death inflation line too, that would juuuuuuuuuust fine).

Sly and Robbie, anyone?

Ahem.

That's Shame ,I'm referring to State.Shame is pants.Never play it.That definately is ripe for a remix,agreed.

mark kelly wrote:

That's Shame ,I'm referring to State.Shame is pants.Never play it.That definately is ripe for a remix,agreed.

Glad you pointed that out Mark. I've been reading through this thread and it had occurred to me that most of the detractors are actually referring to the diabolical John Robie remix.

Now, I've been a New Order / Joy Division fan since 1965 (I just didn't KNOW it until 1980) and I think that State of the Nation is a GOOD NEW ORDER song. Like Tim says, they always seemed to play it well live which couldn't be said for much of their material in 1985 and both the 12" and the 7" versions capture the essence of the song very well. For me though, the thing that sets it apart is the fact that they played it on THE TUBE which, for me, was a milestone in New Order's career. It seemed to signal the fact that they had, somehow, arrived and I loved Barney's yellow sweater;-)

I like it,but prefer the Shame Of The Nation.

EdSpess wrote:

mark kelly wrote:

That's Shame ,I'm referring to State.Shame is pants.Never play it.That definately is ripe for a remix,agreed.

Glad you pointed that out Mark. I've been reading through this thread and it had occurred to me that most of the detractors are actually referring to the diabolical John Robie remix.

Now, I've been a New Order / Joy Division fan since 1965 (I just didn't KNOW it until 1980) and I think that State of the Nation is a GOOD NEW ORDER song. Like Tim says, they always seemed to play it well live which couldn't be said for much of their material in 1985 and both the 12" and the 7" versions capture the essence of the song very well. For me though, the thing that sets it apart is the fact that they played it on THE TUBE which, for me, was a milestone in New Order's career. It seemed to signal the fact that they had, somehow, arrived and I loved Barney's yellow sweater;-)

I would love to see the clip of them performing this on The Tube. Must be vintage NO. anyone got it?

I can take it or leave it - nothing wrong with it. I've loved 'em for 20 years so I think that's long enough!

steveone wrote: I like it,but prefer the Shame Of The Nation.

I prefer Test the Nation, with Anne Robinson and Philip Schofield

this song is not one of my faves.