"Here To Stay" - Fifteen

Not quite the 10 of the CD:UK chart...

Originally posted by Steven Brotherdale Not quite the 10 of the CD:UK chart...

From another of the drumming sort...."if you believe in the charts you might as well believe in fairies"

i believe in fairies!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey ZZ!!! I quoted that very same quip (from 1983) from Steve in my very own forum the other day - whilst talking about the charts with Shuggy and Fingers!!

Talk about some of us being anal or what??!!! :D

At least it made the TOP 15, which is where I was prepared to draw the line between it being a hit and a flop a few days ago anyway......

But Top 10 would have been better - obviously...

So I was right about the single being priced up mid-week having an effect on its final chart position then wasn't I? - Typical fooking bloody-minded thing for London Records to do isn't it? Make it more expensive so less people buy it. Why the hell do you think Doves did so well with their single then? Who wouldn't say "yes" to a single selling at 99 pence?? And my perfectly valid theory I put forward earlier about Weekend sales being mostly taken up by the festering mall-rat trash who buy all the other big names, thus ousting our heroes further down the ranks, is pretty well solidly confirmed isn't it? WHY THE FUCK DOES NO ONE EVER BELIEVE WHAT I FOOKING WELL SAY????

Fingers!! Where are you when we need you????

Well I'm back on the blower tomorrow to London Records Marketing HQ to give them a nice long blast of cold air. The two people I'm gonna be picking bones with are the Marketing Accounts Manager, and the Product Sales Manager. As they weren't available when I tried to contact them Friday I shall be getting in on the case as to why I believe they know EXACTLY what they're doing with regards to New Order - that is, trying to get them dropped from their roster by sabotaging their chart career....

For fooks sake you know and I know that you don't hike the price of a single up MID-WEEK during it's crucial first week of release, don't they realise the obvious effect this has on its all-important first week sales? You wait for it to bluddy well CHART first THEN you mark it up the next week...that's what happens with every fooker else doesn't it? Are they fooking Stupid or something?

If you feel half as strongly as I've done all this time about my suspicions of their dirty tricks campaign against New Order I suggest you all do likewise and call them and give them a piece of your mind - for them to hear viewpoints from a fan's perspective may just make them open their eyes a bit and make them realise what fooking incompetents they bloody well are....

Where am I? I'm waiting for pages to load. For some reason I'm only getting about a page a minute if I'm lucky and nothing at all from some websites (are there roadworks on the Internet this weekend?). About the only site I can get reasonable access to is your site Marty and you're over here (and you're not even putting your website address on every thread or in your signature).

As I said somewhere else, what really scuppered Here To Stay's chances of significant chart success was the moving of the release date from before the album to after it. The record company knows that many NO fans will buy a NO single so they could have put the single out at full price from the day of its release. However, just to be on the safe side they put the single on, as its known in the music business, "a deal" for a few days so that the price would be at £2.99 for a few days. The chances of a significant number of non-NO fans buying Here To Stay were small because it's not a song with crossover potential such as Regret (although a cover sticker mentioning the Chemical Brothers could have helped).

The idea that there is a record company dirty tricks campaign against NO should be discounted. It's not in any record company's interest to try to scupper an act's chances of success. They may disagree with an act's view of how to achieve success and if a band has sufficient artistic control ultimately the band may get its way but a record company can only hope to recoup the money spent on an act if the music they release is as successful as possible. To go off-topic slightly, only two bands in the history of Island Records have recouped their advances: U2 and the Stereo MC's. Record companies spend a lot of money just making a record - they're not so stupid as to do things that would ensure that the money's wasted.

Despite explaining this on several previous occasions, on other N.O. related sites, London Records have NOTHING to do with promoting New Order. There was a massive campaign surrounding "Here To Stay" that centred on the 24HPP movie and was primarily targeted at the club scene. The various formats of promo 12" that have been doing the rounds are testament to that. That the track reached number 15 at all is - imho of course - is a minor miracle.

"Doves" are a new and exciting prospect for any record company who will undoubtedly net them a fortune. "New Order", on the other hand, have had their day and London are more interested in simply recouping their initial investment in the band via their back catalouge and by targetting a specific market - the existing strength and reliability of the bands original fanbase - hope to make a respectable but not massive profit. London Records is not a charity & though my views on that particular record company are fairly well known, I cannot criticise them for NOT hanging their financial future hopes on New Order.

The band chose to use an external and very reputable PR company who know their job well. These guys have been doing the business for New Order recently and the volume of press & number of festival bookings for a band whose success was primarily in the 80s and whose appearance fee is quite high would suggest to me that some people posting here & on "Ceremony" just don't how the record industry works or perhaps, don't want to accept that they missed the groups heyday. I wish the single had gone top 10 but it was fairly unlikely for many reasons - most of which you have all mentioned but have failed to link...

Giving out the number of London Records PR department along with the names of members of staff who are now likely to receive abusive calls is the single fastest way to have Nics' site looked at VERY closely indeed & despite what he has suggested on previous occasions, even I wouldn't want that to happen. I would urge readers of this thread NOT to waste their time calling LONDON as it WILL have an adverse affect on this website which still carries illicit recordings and I would be willing to bet that 1 internal call from the PR to the LEGAL department of the organisation will see alot of hard work on the part of this site go right down the toilet in a matter of days. Just to repeat; LONDON RECORDS do NOT promote New Order; The pricing policy on a new bands releases is a marketing teaser; New Order fans WILL pay the standard price & even slightly higher prices for the product because that's what the companies market research has told them.

This is not a case of me switching sides in any way at all - I still place a greatar belief in worldinmotion.net - I have, however, seen things a little differently of late for a whole host of reasons and perhaps just to show some good will decided to post this reply in such a strong manner. Not trying to "control" anyone Nic, just trying to point out what's what. I was correct before and I'm most certainly correct this time. Do the right thing & DON'T contact LONDON RECORDS staff directly in the manner suggested. People from the PR firm and the record company read some of the nonsense (and constructive posts of course) written here and on all the other sites/forums so it would take all of 30 seconds to bounce it's way back to Nics' door...

Jonathan Scott - for those of you who hadn't yet realised.

That'd be because alas like Tamworth, Corby is in it's own little timewarp and new fangled ideas such as CD's are just not welcome. I had to trundle to Birmingham to get my HTS copies.

If you like "pop" music or whatever style of music is fashionable this year the chances are most of the records you buy will be produced by a major label which has been built up over the decades on the sales of "pop" music or whatever style of music was fashionable in previous years. If you like music that is "art" or a certain style of music the chances are most of the records you buy will be produced by independent labels. Of course, this is a simplification of what really happens: some "pop" bands turn into "art" bands (such as The Beatles, a band a Decca talent scout didn't sign because he thought rock 'n' roll was about to go out of fashion), some major labels do sign bands that are not "pop" bands and some major labels sign some bands partly because it makes their company look good and encourages other bands to sign to them rather than another label. However, if you're into music for music's sake rather than music as a lifestyle accessory then you need some independent labels to succeed.

New Order are the sort of band that its fans would prefer to be on an independent record label because an independent wouldn't try to interfere in the music-making process. We all know what happened when New Order were on Factory Records. However, Factory didn't collapse because it didn't sell enough records: Factory collapsed because it wasted the money it made. Creation didn't collapse because it didn't sell enough records: Creation collapsed because it wasted the money it made. Mute has sold a lot of records but hasn't collapsed.

What am I getting at? I'm explaining that it is possible for independent labels to produce great music and be viable businesses. There is an alternative to the major labels to which music is just a commodity. The reason why some bands (such as New Order and Primal Scream) are on major record labels is because some of the people who tried to break the mould of the record industry (such as Anthony H Wilson and Alan McGee) lost the plot and, in Factory's case, lost a lot of their bands' money. The mould could have been broken and could still be broken (for example, do you know which two seriously successful singers who could easily set up a record label with a fraction of the money they've made are currently out of contract?). However, another reason why it hasn't happened it because whilst some acts want control over the music they make they also want to make money or don't want to spend their own money selling their own music.

P.S. Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that I'm criticising New Order for signing to London Records for the money I'm not because the collapse of Factory left New Order in an extremely difficult position. When I wrote the last paragraph I was thinking of other acts who didn't suffer the same fate as New Order.

Regarding the point of targeting the club scene, This months Muzik has no mention whatsoever of 'Here to Stay'. Plenty of mentions last month, When, if you wanted it, you would have had to purchase a promo that's inflated price would be lining who's pockets? mostly the retailers I'd guess, also these sales have no affect on chart positions. Surely placing a few adverts in this months issue would have been a good idea to follow up the good work of the previous month, don't know if they managed any adverts anywhere????. So have the P.R. firm really done such a good job? Also is the release date a joint decision between them and London? Was this last week specifically targeted? It was originally intended for April 1st which would have tied in better with the publicity generated last month. Another negative the track appears after Atmosphere was it??? herald's the end of the film, so most if not all the punters, as in the case of my viewing had exited the theatre before it started, perhaps cinema ushers are New Orders new fanbase. Also hugely disappointed with the video, Do the greatest band ever need to rely so much on a cack arsed daft film quite so much??? Not ultra keen on the cover either, have the greatest presented band ever lost the plot on their ultra cool image?

Does anyone genuinely believe that people give that much of a shite about the chart position to actually want to phone up London Records and complain ? I don't give a toss if anyone else likes or buys Here To Stay, the only thing that matters to me is that I like it. What number it gets to in the charts or if they make TOTP is largely irrelevant to me, and I'm correct :)

I agree to an extent. I don't care what position it reached personally but I can't imagine NO will carry on knocking out records if the sales say they're not popular any more?

Originally posted by Fingers As I said somewhere else, what really scuppered Here To Stay's chances of significant chart success was the moving of the release date from before the album to after it. The record company knows that many NO fans will buy a NO single so they could have put the single out at full price from the day of its release. However, just to be on the safe side they put the single on, as its known in the music business, "a deal" for a few days so that the price would be at £2.99 for a few days. The chances of a significant number of non-NO fans buying Here To Stay were small because it's not a song with crossover potential such as Regret (although a cover sticker mentioning the Chemical Brothers could have helped).

We agreed on this earlier - the pattern is usually this isn't it?: one (or two) singles preceding the parent album ("tasters") to whet the appetite for the 'full course', then as many singles as the record co. see fit to issue from this album after the album has been issued and charted in order to sustain public interest in that album. Only a handful of acts have had albums issued before even the first single was issued from it... but as a rule it's usually single-album-single-single, etc...

Originally posted by Fingers The idea that there is a record company dirty tricks campaign against NO should be discounted. It's not in any record company's interest to try to scupper an act's chances of success. They may disagree with an act's view of how to achieve success and if a band has sufficient artistic control ultimately the band may get its way but a record company can only hope to recoup the money spent on an act if the music they release is as successful as possible.

If it's not a record company's interest to scupper or hinder an act's chances of success, then exactly who was it that delayed the release date of, say, "60mph" by a WHOLE MONTH if it wasn't London Records? Plus, subsequently, put back the release of "HTS" from 25th March to, firstly 1st April, then 8th, THEN finally to 15th to make it clash with two OTHER important Manchester acts' singles...?

You gotta acknowledge the point I'm making here.....

[Content deleted by Oh Look! There Goes The Laughing Martian Again!! on 4/21/02 4:36:01 PM EST]

Originally posted by Steven Brotherdale Despite explaining this on several previous occasions, on other N.O. related sites, London Records have NOTHING to do with promoting New Order. There was a massive campaign surrounding "Here To Stay" that centred on the 24HPP movie and was primarily targeted at the club scene. The various formats of promo 12" that have been doing the rounds are testament to that. That the track reached number 15 at all is - imho of course - is a minor miracle. "Doves" are a new and exciting prospect for any record company who will undoubtedly net them a fortune. "New Order", on the other hand, have had their day and London are more interested in simply recouping their initial investment in the band via their back catalouge and by targetting a specific market - the existing strength and reliability of the bands original fanbase - hope to make a respectable but not massive profit. London Records is not a charity & though my views on that particular record company are fairly well known, I cannot criticise them for NOT hanging their financial future hopes on New Order.The band chose to use an external and very reputable PR company who know their job well. These guys have been doing the business for New Order recently and the volume of press & number of festival bookings for a band whose success was primarily in the 80s and whose appearance fee is quite high would suggest to me that some people posting here & on "Ceremony" just don't how the record industry works or perhaps, don't want to accept that they missed the groups heyday. I wish the single had gone top 10 but it was fairly unlikely for many reasons - most of which you have all mentioned but have failed to link...Giving out the number of London Records PR department along with the names of members of staff who are now likely to receive abusive calls is the single fastest way to have Nics' site looked at VERY closely indeed & despite what he has suggested on previous occasions, even I wouldn't want that to happen. I would urge readers of this thread NOT to waste their time calling LONDON as it WILL have an adverse affect on this website which still carries illicit recordings and I would be willing to bet that 1 internal call from the PR to the LEGAL department of the organisation will see alot of hard work on the part of this site go right down the toilet in a matter of days. Just to repeat; LONDON RECORDS do NOT promote New Order; The pricing policy on a new bands releases is a marketing teaser; New Order fans WILL pay the standard price & even slightly higher prices for the product because that's what the companies market research has told them.This is not a case of me switching sides in any way at all - I still place a greatar belief in worldinmotion.net - I have, however, seen things a little differently of late for a whole host of reasons and perhaps just to show some good will decided to post this reply in such a strong manner. Not trying to "control" anyone Nic, just trying to point out what's what. I was correct before and I'm most certainly correct this time. Do the right thing & DON'T contact LONDON RECORDS staff directly in the manner suggested. People from the PR firm and the record company read some of the nonsense (and constructive posts of course) written here and on all the other sites/forums so it would take all of 30 seconds to bounce it's way back to Nics' door...Jonathan Scott - for those of you who hadn't yet realised.

Got your message mate - and apologies for appearing to sound off by jumping the gun again....my argument may be misrepresented by doing that.....anyway I've edited my post with the number removed - let's hope that has gone someway to resolving the problem B4 it - as you fear - escalates - but please understand that I - along with many others no doubt - still believe passionately in wanting our favourate band to get the best deal they can from these record company bigwigs, even if - as you've asserted - such bodies aren't likely to have the interests of NO's current output at heart, rather it will be their back catalogue (this obviously then explains the shoddy and underhand way in which their previous albums have been simply repackaged and hastily reissued without a care for maintaining the artwork EXACTLY as it was - [see the "Low-Life" CD] conveyor-belt product indeed!)

And, yes , I KNOW it's not London Records who promote New Order, I also found that out myself from previous calls to them - rather a separate company who go by the name of something sounding very similar to a popular desktop publishing design software package... you and I know who they are any rate... Thanks for putting us straight anyway.. :)

Originally posted by Cheeky Monkey I agree to an extent. I don't care what position it reached personally but I can't imagine NO will carry on knocking out records if the sales say they're not popular any more?

Does it really matter if they do or don't do records anymore though ?

Originally posted by Hank Wiseass© So have the P.R. firm really done such a good job? Also is the release date a joint decision between them and London? Was this last week specifically targeted? It was originally intended for April 1st which would have tied in better with the publicity generated last month. Another negative the track appears after Atmosphere was it??? herald's the end of the film, so most if not all the punters, as in the case of my viewing had exited the theatre before it started, perhaps cinema ushers are New Orders new fanbase.

That's EXACTLY what went thru my mind when I saw the film too - who'd get to even HEAR the song, unless you stayed put to read the credits?.....thus lending weight to my earlier suspicion about everything being done to prevent punters from actually hearing the bloody song....

Yes it matters to me too. No new records means no tours, and I missed out first time round only being a youthful monkey and all. Like Shug says, if NO and the Charlies pack it in, I just don't know what I'd do for gig entertainment.

Originally posted by Zizou Zidane > Originally posted by Cheeky Monkey> I agree to an extent. I don't care what position it reached personally but I can't imagine NO will carry on knocking out records if the sales say they're not popular any more?

Does it really matter if they do or don't do records anymore though ?

Put it this way Timbo - and this is me being frightfully, genuinely serious - I think New Order should have just sacked it after "Republic" - I was happy to let bygones be bygones. For eight fooking years, I took it as read they'd split. So I was only too happy to move on. At least their various "solo" projects were offering some kind of sustenance. I never really counted on them getting back together to do another album anymore. Of course their moment had past. They'd peaked and that was it. (that's true though, isn't it??) New Order were always going to be remembered as an eighties band rather than a nineties one to me at any rate. They should have bowed out and left us wanting more. Rather than go and spoil it by coming back all flabby and embarrassing. There. I said it. Over and out.

Originally posted by Fingers The idea that there is a record company dirty tricks campaign against NO should be discounted. It's not in any record company's interest to try to scupper an act's chances of success. They may disagree with an act's view of how to achieve success and if a band has sufficient artistic control ultimately the band may get its way but a record company can only hope to recoup the money spent on an act if the music they release is as successful as possible.

Originally posted by Marty If it's not a record company's interest to scupper or hinder an act's chances of success, then exactly who was it that delayed the release date of, say, "60mph" by a WHOLE MONTH if it wasn't London Records? Plus, subsequently, put back the release of "HTS" from 25th March to, firstly 1st April, then 8th, THEN finally to 15th to make it clash with two OTHER important Manchester acts' singles...?You gotta acknowledge the point I'm making here.....

I don't know why 60mph was postponed but it would have been the fault or decision of someone at London Records. However, organisations are run by human beings and some human beings don't do the things that they are told to do, don't do them as soon as they are supposed to do them or don't do them right when they do them. There will be a range of different people with differing levels of experience, authority and ability involved.

Having said all that, there is another possibility. I have just picked up my copy of 60mph and inside it are the words "Cover art direction Peter Saville". When Peter Hook was asked on NewOrderStory to describe Peter Saville's artwork in one word what word did he use? "Late."

Quite.

and now, add to that the new word : crap.

:D

Originally posted by Oh Look! There Goes The Laughing Martian Again!! > Originally posted by Zizou Zidane> > > > Originally posted by Cheeky Monkey> > I agree to an extent. I don't care what position it reached personally but I can't imagine NO will carry on knocking out records if the sales say they're not popular any more?>

Does it really matter if they do or don't do records anymore though ?

Put it this way Timbo - and this is me being frightfully, genuinely serious - I think New Order should have just sacked it after "Republic" - I was happy to let bygones be bygones. For eight fooking years, I took it as read they'd split. So I was only too happy to move on. At least their various "solo" projects were offering some kind of sustenance. I never really counted on them getting back together to do another album anymore. Of course their moment had past. They'd peaked and that was it. (that's true though, isn't it??) New Order were always going to be remembered as an eighties band rather than a nineties one to me at any rate. They should have bowed out and left us wanting more. Rather than go and spoil it by coming back all flabby and embarrassing. There. I said it. Over and out.

My sentiments entirely. See you down the front at Finsbury ;)

Finsbury? Never 'eard of it!

There was no debate Nic - if you had actually read what I wrote you would have understood that I was trying to deflect attention away from any "negative" angle that could be directed at your site.

As for what went on behind your back Nic - you'll never truly know, suffice to say that more than one of your "friends" made great efforts to get you in alot of trouble and that you wrongly blamed me for the majority of what went on...

Anyway, onwards & upwards...

Hello you - tried to call you earlier but avoiding me again I presume! ;)

Originally posted by Zizou Zidane > Originally posted by Cheeky Monkey> I agree to an extent. I don't care what position it reached personally but I can't imagine NO will carry on knocking out records if the sales say they're not popular any more?

Does it really matter if they do or don't do records anymore though ?

yes, it certainly does for me

Originally posted by Oh Look! There Goes The Laughing Martian Again!! Finsbury? Never 'eard of it!

he means fins-bree

Whoever said they should have called it a day after Republic..

all i can say is FUCK THAT! there still making great music, there still performing their great hits of the 80's with passion and strength and may i also incidently add there songs havent aged like some of the dross that was churned out in that decade...

If Grrrrready was a bag o shite and they embarrased themselves on stage then i'd say yea lets live on the memories, but they still pack a crowd, still get a raptourous ovation and most importantly still LOVE playing their songs!! (well apart from BlueMonday!) Listening to back catalogues is all good but dont deny you aint all dying of curiosity whenever they announce a new track is being recorded!!!! what route will it take? whats Barney gonna empathise about?, How much is Hooky gonna rip the fuck out of that bass!! :D

So I say let them give us more memories for the future while they can, because once there gone, they are gone for good and that will be that.

Can I very succinctly nip this in the bud please?

I never made ANY threat to have this or any other site closed down and despite certain belief to the contrary, I would be unable to even IF I wanted to.

On several previous occasions, Nic & Seb have used information & interviews conducted by & and provided by myself that originated on another site. The internet survives through the sharing of information and as such I had no problem with their decision to use anything I had worked on or provided. There was a great deal made out of very little some time ago but to the best of my knowledge, that is all in the past. There are many sites dedicated to New Order and it has to be said that this is one of the better ones. As for myself, ask anyone who actually knows me & I have absolutely no doubt that they will reiterate just what a wonderful, fine & upstanding citizen I really am...

I don't know how to change my name in the bio so for the time being at least, Steven Brotherdale it remains...

Jonathan S.