Brotherhood is SOOO much better than Technique

I know some of you love Technique, but let's be real here....MEDIOCRE!!!!! I listened to both albums back to back the past few days, and I get such a happy well being feeling listening to "WEIRDO", "AS IT WAS WHEN IT WAS", "WAY OF LIFE", "BLT", "that song after BLT about child abuse that I for some reason forgot the name of", and "EVERY LITTLE COUNTS"....."ANGEL DUST" and "BP" are also great, although not very cheerful.

Technique on the other hand, comes off as polished and at times, a bit dull......With that said, I LOVE "Fine Time", "Round and Round", and "Vanishing Point" tremendously. Those three songs are incredible. But 3 songs out of 9 ain't gonna cut it! "All the Way" is ok, but it sounds like the Cure. "Guilty Partner" reminds me of Joy Division a little bit, but is kind of dull, and never really takes off. "Love Less" and "Run" kind of stink, "Mr Disco" is nothing special, and "DREAM ATTACK" is decent, but it bugs me that Peter Hook is barely on the song! That song especially feels like it's missing something.

Just my two cents!!!!

J

*sigh*

you really set yourself up for it, don't you?

Spotnick wrote: but it's their best album as a whole.

nah, way overrated. Low-Life kicks its ass.

never in the history of the world have I...

you say ""Run" kinda stinks"...

do you like New Order at all?

oh, dear. *sigh* brotherhood is a good album--beats the crap out of movement or republic, but technique? never. run might sweat with intense heat, but it don't stink, and dream attack is perfect.

Spotnick wrote: Technique mediocre?

You're not going to make friend with that statement, that's for sure, considering this is New Order's finest album.

It doesn't have the best songs, but it's their best album as a whole.

There are plenty on here who don't like Technique, Nic.

And in the same way saying Brotherhood is "better" than Technique is subjective, so is saying Technique is "their best album as a whole".

It's like me saying PC&L and Low-Life are both better, which they are ;)

Technique ...MEDIOCRE...??? it sounds like the Cure????

{in best Simon Cowell voice.....}

Mr.Baron. You haven't got a clue. That much is obvious. I think you're trying too hard to make an impression. Don't. All you are doing is setting yourself up for derision, and there will be plenty of that round here if you come up with crass statements like "Brotherhood is better than Technique". Let's face facts. Brotherhood is a poorly-produced record that contains a few good songs, a couple of decent ones and a couple of half-ideas. Technique was the first album that sounded polished from start to finish, that sounded how they actually wanted it to.

Technique is beaut on the whole,but yes,Brotherhood is better now you mention it..

Brotherhood is SOOO much better than Technique

IMO, yes. The general sound of Technique is polished indeed. Still it is well done and complete but then again it has never appealed to me as much as Brotherhood. I agree that Brotherhood is less (read: badly) produced but it's exactly what I like about New Order no matter how stupid it may sound. I'm a Movement/Low Life/Brotherhood fan and I get irritated when people slag them off. But I still think that Technique is a very appealing album although it sounds a bit dated at times. Dream Attack and Run are the only songs I ever listen to anymore

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: I know some of you love Technique, but let's be real here....MEDIOCRE!!!!!

J

In YOUR opinion, Technique is mediocre.

In MY opinion you are wrong

So there...

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: I know some of you love Technique, but let's be real here....MEDIOCRE!!!!! I listened to both albums back to back the past few days, and I get such a happy well being feeling listening to "WEIRDO", "AS IT WAS WHEN IT WAS", "WAY OF LIFE", "BLT", "that song after BLT about child abuse that I for some reason forgot the name of", and "EVERY LITTLE COUNTS"....."ANGEL DUST" and "BP" are also great, although not very cheerful.

Technique on the other hand, comes off as polished and at times, a bit dull......With that said, I LOVE "Fine Time", "Round and Round", and "Vanishing Point" tremendously. Those three songs are incredible. But 3 songs out of 9 ain't gonna cut it! "All the Way" is ok, but it sounds like the Cure. "Guilty Partner" reminds me of Joy Division a little bit, but is kind of dull, and never really takes off. "Love Less" and "Run" kind of stink, "Mr Disco" is nothing special, and "DREAM ATTACK" is decent, but it bugs me that Peter Hook is barely on the song! That song especially feels like it's missing something.

Just my two cents!!!!

J

Have you ever actually listened to New Order? I'd say probably not.

I think Technique is streets ahead of Brotherhood. However, Brotherhood is interesting if only because it takes about 10 years to work out the lyrics and because I cant stop thinking how much better it should have been. Compared to SOTN and BLT the other tracks are short changed when it came to the production check out.

For me the music is sonically dull on Brotherhood and a bit one dimensional (ie horrible distortion guitar tones) and is quite grating. Technique, on the other hand, is sublime synth pop with gorgeous bass hooks and sweet, understated guitar work. Not to forget, warm and well executed vocals from Barney.

I guess the fact that theres only a year gap between Low-life and Brotherhood points to why the album sounds like it does.

I think Technique is streets ahead of Brotherhood. However, Brotherhood is interesting if only because it takes about 10 years to work out the lyrics and because I cant stop thinking how much better it should have been. Compared to SOTN and BLT the other tracks are short changed when it came to the production check out.

For me the music is sonically dull on Brotherhood and a bit one dimensional (ie horrible distortion guitar tones) and is quite grating. Technique, on the other hand, is sublime synth pop with gorgeous bass hooks and sweet, understated guitar work. Not to forget, warm and well executed vocals from Barney.

I guess the fact that theres only a year gap between Low-life and Brotherhood points to why the album sounds like it does.

Brotherhood is often slated as a bad album but it's got some great stuff on it.

I played Angel Dust the other day, for the first time since the CD player upgrade a year ago and in the more spacious surroundings of my new house. I was blown away, probably the best track on the album and one of the best tracks they've ever done.

I am with the original poster.

Brotherhood is a much better album and represents New Order in their prime. It says something that I remember every song from Brotherhood instantly but 3/4 of Technique has drifted from memory.

Technique was OK but for me, has only one true standout track - Vanishing Point.

Brotherhood is full of standout tracks.

I'm going to have to disagree. Technique is far superior to Brotherhood. Every Little Counts is weak, weak song and I only ever listen to BLT (rarely the album version), Broken Promise and occasionally Angel Dust. Never taken a liking to Paradise or Weirdo. Technique however - Mr. Disco, VP, Dream Attack, even the guitar tracks Loveless and All The Way are great.

Technique does lack the killer single like Regret or Crystal, and Brotherhood does have BLT, but overall i'd say Technique takes it by quite a way..

Well even though SHUG says i am an OLD fucker i LOVE Technique for the CLASSIC songs but more so the GREAT time in my LIFE that this CD reminds me of!

Blunderer wrote: I am with the original poster.

You don't say trolling again

I listened to em both again today in the car, and Brotherhood is sounding a little dated in sound i thought, whereas Technique still sounds ok. I've always thought the acoustic rock side of Brotherhood was a weak 'flip' of my old 33, and I'm sure if i looked at it, the electronic side it would be far more worn down.

If I had bought Technique on vinyl, then I reckon the wear would be even on both sides.

Bollocks

I realy can't say which album i prefer, it's a mood thing, and my mood changes while i'm listening to it, so whatever I'm listening to at the time is best, sounds like a cop out, but I'm sure others must feel the same, it's one of the things I love about new order, they change your mood, alter your state of mind, even the most morbid tune (elegia) can be uplifting and leave you feeling better after hearing it.

production wise, technique wins hands down, but studio technology came a long way in the few years between brotherhood and technique, by the time of technique we were completely in the CD era, and recording at real world studio was light years ahead of the shit hole they recorded brotherhood in, barney had more singing lessons and was gettng more comfortable with his style, plus midi instruments and sequencing software improved dramatically, but at the end of the day it's the effect the music has on the listener, and everyone is different.

that is the end of my lecture!

ally wrote:

There's no "Temptation", "Regret" or "Crystal" on Technique is there?

the answer would be yes if VP/MrDisco had been released as a double ASide.

Blunderer wrote:

Brotherhood is full of standout tracks.

Such as?

Jed Stephens wrote: I realy can't say which album i prefer, it's a mood thing, and my mood changes while i'm listening to it, so whatever I'm listening to at the time is best, sounds like a cop out, but I'm sure others must feel the same, it's one of the things I love about new order, they change your mood, alter your state of mind, even the most morbid tune (elegia) can be uplifting and leave you feeling better after hearing it.

production wise, technique wins hands down, but studio technology came a long way in the few years between brotherhood and technique, by the time of technique we were completely in the CD era, and recording at real world studio was light years ahead of the shit hole they recorded brotherhood in, barney had more singing lessons and was gettng more comfortable with his style, plus midi instruments and sequencing software improved dramatically, but at the end of the day it's the effect the music has on the listener, and everyone is different.

that is the end of my lecture!

Yes, recording technology was making rapid progress during the late 80s, which sort of explains why some stuff from the era (regardless of genre) sounds great and other stuff sounds flat or artificial. However, that being said, Brotherhood should not have suffered the way it did. PC&L sounds great with all the instruments clear. Brotherhood came later and sounds like it never got past the rough mix stage: the guitars are funnily blended and even the drums sound a bit cloudy, which is a real shame.

For me, I've never understood why LowLife receives so much adulation. I like it sans Subculture, but it's not the one I reach for. Also, I found the sound not much better than Brotherhood. Is this a CD mastering problem?

Technique is less "timeless" than Brotherhood. You can tell by just looking at recent NO setlists. Yes, there isn't any Technique track on it. And they're still playing BLT, which was on Brotherhood.

mrgreen71 wrote: Technique is less "timeless" than Brotherhood. You can tell by just looking at recent NO setlists. Yes, there isn't any Technique track on it. And they're still playing BLT, which was on Brotherhood.

Not a good measuring call. BLT is for me the best dancy song they've ever done. Doesnt make the rest of the album a classic compared to Technique either.

As for playing Technique live, I think Gillian had a big input in making the record, which might explain why they dont play any of the songs live any more. Despite our protestations. If they did play something from Technique again, it would invariably take the roof off.

Tim wrote:

Blunderer wrote:

Brotherhood is full of standout tracks.

Such as?

BLT and the undersung Angel Dust.

Yeah, TECHNIQUE is such a better "album" from start to finish than Brotherhood......That's why it's scattered with dance track next to rock track, as opposed to Brotherhood which flows through a natural progression from acoustic to electric to electronic......And for all the audiophiles out there, who cares if the sound quality of Technique is better. You're comparing a mid 80s album with an album that was almost 90s. Of course the 89 album will be of better sound quality. It doesn't detract from the greatness of the songs....

And bi the way, I think "Round And Round" should have been a huge hit. It's so catchy! I like it just as much as BLT, and I'm shocked that the rest of the world didn't.

J

I think Technique is brilliantly sequenced.

Shug wrote:

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: Yeah, TECHNIQUE is such a better "album" from start to finish than Brotherhood......That's why it's scattered with dance track next to rock track.... J

Dance track next to Rock track

Name me one rock track on Technique. Go on, I dare you

you aint seriously suggesting that "loveless" is a dance track are ya shug?

His Holiness, The Pope wrote:

Tim wrote:

Blunderer wrote:

Brotherhood is full of standout tracks.

Such as?

BLT and the undersung Angel Dust.

That's about as "full" as the waiting list for MLANH's fanclub!

Shug wrote:

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: Yeah, TECHNIQUE is such a better "album" from start to finish than Brotherhood......That's why it's scattered with dance track next to rock track.... J

Dance track next to Rock track

Name me one rock track on Technique. Go on, I dare you

All The Way?

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: Yeah, TECHNIQUE is such a better "album" from start to finish than Brotherhood......That's why it's scattered with dance track next to rock track, as opposed to Brotherhood which flows through a natural progression from acoustic to electric to electronic......And for all the audiophiles out there, who cares if the sound quality of Technique is better. You're comparing a mid 80s album with an album that was almost 90s. Of course the 89 album will be of better sound quality. It doesn't detract from the greatness of the songs....

And bi the way, I think "Round And Round" should have been a huge hit. It's so catchy! I like it just as much as BLT, and I'm shocked that the rest of the world didn't.

J

Brotherhood was recorded August 86. Technique was recorded pretty much throughout 88. Somewhat shortens your mid-80s/almost 90s argument!

Round and Round is horribly dated. The rest of the world was right.

Burt Reynolds wrote:

mrgreen71 wrote: Technique is less "timeless" than Brotherhood. You can tell by just looking at recent NO setlists. Yes, there isn't any Technique track on it. And they're still playing BLT, which was on Brotherhood.

As for playing Technique live, I think Gillian had a big input in making the record, which might explain why they dont play any of the songs live any more. Despite our protestations. If they did play something from Technique again, it would invariably take the roof off.

They don't play the Technique songs because they haven't sequenced them, and because they would need to change the song keys to enable Bernard to sing them these days. From a source who is apparently as frustrated about it as we are!

Tim wrote:

His Holiness, The Pope wrote:

Tim wrote:

Blunderer wrote:

Brotherhood is full of standout tracks.

Such as?

BLT and the undersung Angel Dust.

That's about as "full" as the waiting list for MLANH's fanclub!

Paradise - one of the early NO rabble rousing choruses As It is and When It Was - a bit spoilt by the acoustic guitar but a classic live track Broken Promises - rock n roll BLT - an alltime pop classic All Day Long - big songs, small dicks

And I even like some of the others.

Technique?

Errr.....Vanishing Point. And that's about it.

El Jarvo wrote:

Tim wrote: Brotherhood was recorded August 86. Technique was recorded pretty much throughout 88. Somewhat shortens your mid-80s/almost 90s argument!

Don't think it was recorded in August, Tim? The tracklisting was out by then and it was released last week in September. Surely no-one (Fac especially) could have such a turnaround?

Based purely on the fact that Paradise and Way of Life weren't finished in mid-July 86 if the G-Mex renditions are anything to go by, and only Every Little Counts was new in the August 86 gig in Denmark yet they all surfaced in the September gigs, I'm pretty sure it was recorded between the end of July and the first week of September. Unusual for them in that half the album was written in the studio rather than taken out live first. Remarkably short turnaround for Factory, but it would explain the half-finished sound some of it has got!

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: Yeah, TECHNIQUE is such a better "album" from start to finish than Brotherhood......That's why it's scattered with dance track next to rock track, as opposed to Brotherhood which flows through a natural progression from acoustic to electric to electronic......And for all the audiophiles out there, who cares if the sound quality of Technique is better. You're comparing a mid 80s album with an album that was almost 90s. Of course the 89 album will be of better sound quality. It doesn't detract from the greatness of the songs....

And bi the way, I think "Round And Round" should have been a huge hit. It's so catchy! I like it just as much as BLT, and I'm shocked that the rest of the world didn't.

J

Exactly which tracks are acoustic, which are electric and which are electronic? I dont buy into this first half is acoustic and 2nd half is electronic. Its complete tosh!!!

And I dont buy into the ethos that mid 80's albums were all bad quality. Listen to Genesis, Fleetwood Mac. Michael Jackson, Pet Shop Boys or Dire Straits (there again dont!) and their albums are all well produced and polished (irrespective of what year they were recorded).

To me Brotherhood sounds like it was recorded in a week with little variation in instrument sounds. Some of the distorted guitar parts are awful and I find the album quite distburbing sonically at times. Whereas Technique is gorgeous synth driven pop and a joy to behold. If 1989 was the summer of love then 1986 was the winter of hate.

Brotherhood is still a good album though and I enjoy parts of it. But can anyone honestly say they have heard a worsely recorded album??

ally wrote:

NO Regret wrote: Listen to Genesis, Fleetwood Mac. Michael Jackson .... or Dire Straits

No ta!

I think I'd spontaneously combust if I was forced to listen to that little lot

Fair enough but youre missing my point.

ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: Paradise - one of the early NO rabble rousing choruses As It is and When It Was - a bit spoilt by the acoustic guitar but a classic live track Broken Promises - rock n roll BLT - an alltime pop classic All Day Long - big songs, small dicks

And I even like some of the others.

It's all opinion I know but Paradise is fcuking shit, it's just not a good song either instrumentally or lyrically. They tried to breath new life into it for the 3rd John Peel Session in '98 and it didn't work then either. The Robert Racic remix is listenable however.

I'll say it again, I think Brotherhood should've been worked on slightly longer by the band. If the songs had been more fleshed out and a seperate producer brought in to rescue the production then it quite easily could've been a record to equal Technique; the potential was there but it was never lived up to.

Technique?

Errr.....Vanishing Point. And that's about it.

No special mention for All The Way, Run or Dream Attack? Surely they've got that "classic" New Order sound plus some fine lyrics from Barney? Since you get so misty eyed over that whole Aceeed House era I definitely would have had you down as a fan of Mr Disco!?

Paradise is one of the few highlights on Brotherhood. Admitedly it could have been better produced. As It Was When It Was could have been great rather than average.

NO Regret wrote:

ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: Paradise - one of the early NO rabble rousing choruses As It is and When It Was - a bit spoilt by the acoustic guitar but a classic live track Broken Promises - rock n roll BLT - an alltime pop classic All Day Long - big songs, small dicks

And I even like some of the others.

It's all opinion I know but Paradise is fcuking shit, it's just not a good song either instrumentally or lyrically. They tried to breath new life into it for the 3rd John Peel Session in '98 and it didn't work then either. The Robert Racic remix is listenable however.

I'll say it again, I think Brotherhood should've been worked on slightly longer by the band. If the songs had been more fleshed out and a seperate producer brought in to rescue the production then it quite easily could've been a record to equal Technique; the potential was there but it was never lived up to.

Technique?

Errr.....Vanishing Point. And that's about it.

No special mention for All The Way, Run or Dream Attack? Surely they've got that "classic" New Order sound plus some fine lyrics from Barney? Since you get so misty eyed over that whole Aceeed House era I definitely would have had you down as a fan of Mr Disco!?

Paradise is one of the few highlights on Brotherhood. Admitedly it could have been better produced. As It Was When It Was could have been great rather than average.

Probably says more about me, Ally, but I can only remember Run from the four tracks you mention. Not bad, as lots of Technique is, but not brilliant.

All this dewy eyed nostalgia over a fundamentally poor record has driven me to this…….

The oldmonkey Brotherhood review, as of today, which replaces any previous rants I may have had about the product.

Paradise – grrrrr. Annoying bassline, an octave too high. Trite words, besides that it would be passable as a filler if they were short of tracks.

Weirdo – not quite as bad as some of the stuff off this album, but still a pretty poor effort by their standards. Hated it when they started doing it live in 85, the record did nothing to improve this opinion.

As It Is When It Was – should have been a lot better, the acoustic opening does it no favours at all. Fundamentally decent song though, not a classic by any means, but better than 5 of the offerings on this one.

Broken Promise – should have been good, the song is basically a good one, but the production is shocking, they’ve hollowed out a rock beast in much the same way that Hannett screwed half of Unknown Pleasures with less emptiness.

Way Of Life – this is their idea of a joke, surely? It’s a parody on some of their earlier stuff, with the bassline not only being a hybrid of other songs but even changing into them at the end.

Bizarre Love Triangle – the only one they really got right, it was leaps and bounds ahead of the song that had developed live, and is the album’s genuine classic.

All Day Long – beautiful musically, ruined by crass lyrics. Would have been a great instrumental. Production-wise it’s not too bad.

Angel Dust – interesting idea, some way different to anything they’d done before, different percussion, heavy metal guitar solo, backwards bits, innovative and deserved to be presented with better songs.

Every Little Counts – the beginning of the end. How the people who wrote stuff like Temptation, LWTUA, Atmosphere and Perfect Kiss managed to churn this one out is beyond me. I can only assume that the quality control department were on strike this day. A blot on their CV.

Tim wrote: All this dewy eyed nostalgia over a fundamentally poor record has driven me to this…….

The oldmonkey Brotherhood review, as of today, which replaces any previous rants I may have had about the product.

Paradise – grrrrr. Annoying bassline, an octave too high. Trite words, besides that it would be passable as a filler if they were short of tracks.

Weirdo – not quite as bad as some of the stuff off this album, but still a pretty poor effort by their standards. Hated it when they started doing it live in 85, the record did nothing to improve this opinion.

As It Is When It Was – should have been a lot better, the acoustic opening does it no favours at all. Fundamentally decent song though, not a classic by any means, but better than 5 of the offerings on this one.

Broken Promise – should have been good, the song is basically a good one, but the production is shocking, they’ve hollowed out a rock beast in much the same way that Hannett screwed half of Unknown Pleasures with less emptiness.

Way Of Life – this is their idea of a joke, surely? It’s a parody on some of their earlier stuff, with the bassline not only being a hybrid of other songs but even changing into them at the end.

Bizarre Love Triangle – the only one they really got right, it was leaps and bounds ahead of the song that had developed live, and is the album’s genuine classic.

All Day Long – beautiful musically, ruined by crass lyrics. Would have been a great instrumental. Production-wise it’s not too bad.

Angel Dust – interesting idea, some way different to anything they’d done before, different percussion, heavy metal guitar solo, backwards bits, innovative and deserved to be presented with better songs.

Every Little Counts – the beginning of the end. How the people who wrote stuff like Temptation, LWTUA, Atmosphere and Perfect Kiss managed to churn this one out is beyond me. I can only assume that the quality control department were on strike this day. A blot on their CV.

An excellent summary there. Can you comment on SOTN too? I Know alot of folk hate it but its my 2nd favourtite off the album.

Personally I think the acoustic intro to AIWWIW is the best part of the song. I just wish it had continued as an acoustic song with a stronger chorus. In fact I wish NO had done more acoustic guitar tracks. Loveless and Run Wild are great in my book.

Tim wrote: {in best Simon Cowell voice.....}

Mr.Baron. You haven't got a clue. That much is obvious. I think you're trying too hard to make an impression. Don't. All you are doing is setting yourself up for derision, and there will be plenty of that round here if you come up with crass statements like "Brotherhood is better than Technique". Let's face facts. Brotherhood is a poorly-produced record that contains a few good songs, a couple of decent ones and a couple of half-ideas. Technique was the first album that sounded polished from start to finish, that sounded how they actually wanted it to.

'Nuff said

Burt Reynolds wrote:

You don't say trolling again

Trolling???

In my real life all the New Order fans I know, of which there are quite a few, mid 30's mancs who have been fans for over 20 years, Blunderer represents the majority view.

Sometimes you can substitute 'New Order' for 'Westlife' on this site. Take away the social aspect of gigs these days and they are plain wank.

AIIWIW is a classic NO track imo, but like oldmonkey says, the guitar intro just doesn't fit into the song. And I like the live versions more than the album version.

NO Regret wrote:

An excellent summary there. Can you comment on SOTN too? I Know alot of folk hate it but its my 2nd favourtite off the album.

Personally I think the acoustic intro to AIWWIW is the best part of the song. I just wish it had continued as an acoustic song with a stronger chorus. In fact I wish NO had done more acoustic guitar tracks. Loveless and Run Wild are great in my book.

State of the Nation wasn't on the album......unless you are American, and as far as I am concerned the UK release is the definitive one, their being a UK band and all that.

Anyway, if it had less pathetic lyrics it wouldn't be too bad, but once again the antennae in his brain let him down. Tune-wise it's ok. One of the songs that I wouldn't mind hearing again actually, even though they won't play it again. Re: Order do SOTN surprisingly well actually.

Fac That wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote:

You don't say trolling again

Trolling???

In my real life all the New Order fans I know, of which there are quite a few, mid 30's mancs who have been fans for over 20 years, Blunderer represents the majority view.

Sometimes you can substitute 'New Order' for 'Westlife' on this site. Take away the social aspect of gigs these days and they are plain wank.

are you Blunder? sorry no he doesn't represent the majority view. each to their own. music is subjective.

blunderer's problem is that he thinks that he needs to convince us of the validity of his views.

sorry no. I haven't agreed with any of his points yet.

the more he tries to convince us of his views the more he come across as a dick.

he should just accept that most of us think differently to him

but imo technique is a brilliant album. brotherhood has glimpse of brilliantness, but is badly executed. those songs sound so much better live.

when i saw blundrer agree with mr no holiday, i just thought yeh right of course he'll try and flame this issue.

he prolly doesn't even actually think that brotherhood is better that technique.

Blimey! Nooligan, that must be the longest post you've ever written

Tim wrote:

NO Regret wrote:

An excellent summary there. Can you comment on SOTN too? I Know alot of folk hate it but its my 2nd favourtite off the album.

Personally I think the acoustic intro to AIWWIW is the best part of the song. I just wish it had continued as an acoustic song with a stronger chorus. In fact I wish NO had done more acoustic guitar tracks. Loveless and Run Wild are great in my book.

State of the Nation wasn't on the album......unless you are American, and as far as I am concerned the UK release is the definitive one, their being a UK band and all that.

Anyway, if it had less pathetic lyrics it wouldn't be too bad, but once again the antennae in his brain let him down. Tune-wise it's ok. One of the songs that I wouldn't mind hearing again actually, even though they won't play it again. Re: Order do SOTN surprisingly well actually.

I must have bought an import from my local HMV then!

Tim wrote: All this dewy eyed nostalgia over a fundamentally poor record has driven me to this…….

The oldmonkey Brotherhood review, as of today, which replaces any previous rants I may have had about the product.

Paradise – grrrrr. Annoying bassline, an octave too high. Trite words, besides that it would be passable as a filler if they were short of tracks.

Weirdo – not quite as bad as some of the stuff off this album, but still a pretty poor effort by their standards. Hated it when they started doing it live in 85, the record did nothing to improve this opinion.

As It Is When It Was – should have been a lot better, the acoustic opening does it no favours at all. Fundamentally decent song though, not a classic by any means, but better than 5 of the offerings on this one.

Broken Promise – should have been good, the song is basically a good one, but the production is shocking, they’ve hollowed out a rock beast in much the same way that Hannett screwed half of Unknown Pleasures with less emptiness.

Way Of Life – this is their idea of a joke, surely? It’s a parody on some of their earlier stuff, with the bassline not only being a hybrid of other songs but even changing into them at the end.

Bizarre Love Triangle – the only one they really got right, it was leaps and bounds ahead of the song that had developed live, and is the album’s genuine classic.

All Day Long – beautiful musically, ruined by crass lyrics. Would have been a great instrumental. Production-wise it’s not too bad.

Angel Dust – interesting idea, some way different to anything they’d done before, different percussion, heavy metal guitar solo, backwards bits, innovative and deserved to be presented with better songs.

Every Little Counts – the beginning of the end. How the people who wrote stuff like Temptation, LWTUA, Atmosphere and Perfect Kiss managed to churn this one out is beyond me. I can only assume that the quality control department were on strike this day. A blot on their CV.

Tim Castigating New Order for their poor lyrics is a bit daft as their lyrics have always been pretty trite. i cannot think of a single New Order song with genuinely good lyrics. And Every Little Counts is/was a half decent song, certainly more interesting than the majority of pop pap on Technique. It is possibly the only New Order song to illustrate their humour. Wierdo is poor, as is Way of Life, but the rest are all classic New Order.

I would answer you back with a track by track review of Technique except I can't remember most of it. As I said before, Fine Time is OK, Vanishing Point is excellent but the rest are a bit New Order-by-numbers.

Anyway, your "blot on their CV" comment has given me an idea for a more interesting thread than this......

Blunderer wrote:

Anyway, your "blot on their CV" comment has given me an idea for a more interesting thread than this......

We've done Jetstream to death already!

Foreign F**kwitt wrote: Blimey! Nooligan, that must be the longest post you've ever written

i have written longer posts. must be time for shed now.

NOOLigan wrote:

are you Blunder? sorry no he doesn't represent the majority view. each to their own. music is subjective.

I said he represents the majority view in my REAL life.

Obviously not on here. What with Mrs Disco chuckin her knickers at Barney and stuff, he aint bleedin Tom Jones

NOOLigan wrote:

Fac That wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote:

You don't say trolling again

Trolling???

In my real life all the New Order fans I know, of which there are quite a few, mid 30's mancs who have been fans for over 20 years, Blunderer represents the majority view.

Sometimes you can substitute 'New Order' for 'Westlife' on this site. Take away the social aspect of gigs these days and they are plain wank.

are you Blunder? sorry no he doesn't represent the majority view. each to their own. music is subjective.

blunderer's problem is that he thinks that he needs to convince us of the validity of his views.

sorry no. I haven't agreed with any of his points yet.

the more he tries to convince us of his views the more he come across as a dick.

he should just accept that most of us think differently to him

but imo technique is a brilliant album. brotherhood has glimpse pf brilliantness, but is badly executed. those songs sound so much better live.

when i saw blundrer agree with mr no holiday, i just thought yeh right of course he'll try and flame this issue.

he prolly doesn't even actually think that brotherhood is better that technique.

No need to get all hot under the collar because someone agrees with me, NOOligan.

As I have stated on several occasions I have my views and I have aired them on here.

I know you love New Order very much indeed, but someone thinking they should retire is not worth getting wound up about. Stay cool.

By the way, I do believe Brotherhood is a better album than Technique.

Fac That wrote:

NOOLigan wrote:

are you Blunder? sorry no he doesn't represent the majority view. each to their own. music is subjective.

I said he represents the majority view in my REAL life.

Obviously not on here. What with Mrs Disco chuckin her knickers at Barney and stuff, he aint bleedin Tom Jones

and you said the majority view.

ok it is obviously pointless in arguing with you lot. I'm just waiting for Hank to chip in as well now.

Blunderer wrote:

NOOLigan wrote:

Fac That wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote:

You don't say trolling again

Trolling???

In my real life all the New Order fans I know, of which there are quite a few, mid 30's mancs who have been fans for over 20 years, Blunderer represents the majority view.

Sometimes you can substitute 'New Order' for 'Westlife' on this site. Take away the social aspect of gigs these days and they are plain wank.

are you Blunder? sorry no he doesn't represent the majority view. each to their own. music is subjective.

blunderer's problem is that he thinks that he needs to convince us of the validity of his views.

sorry no. I haven't agreed with any of his points yet.

the more he tries to convince us of his views the more he come across as a dick.

he should just accept that most of us think differently to him

but imo technique is a brilliant album. brotherhood has glimpse pf brilliantness, but is badly executed. those songs sound so much better live.

when i saw blundrer agree with mr no holiday, i just thought yeh right of course he'll try and flame this issue.

he prolly doesn't even actually think that brotherhood is better that technique.

No need to get all hot under the collar because someone agrees with me, NOOligan.

As I have stated on several occasions I have my views and I have aired them on here.

I know you love New Order very much indeed, but someone thinking they should retire is not worth getting wound up about. Stay cool.

By the way, I do believe Brotherhood is a better album than Technique.

frankly i have decided not to care about your views anymore.

NOOLigan wrote:

and you said the majority view.

I know I did.

Are you fuckin brain dead????

NOOLigan wrote:

Blunderer wrote:

NOOLigan wrote:

Fac That wrote:

Burt Reynolds wrote:

You don't say trolling again

Trolling???

In my real life all the New Order fans I know, of which there are quite a few, mid 30's mancs who have been fans for over 20 years, Blunderer represents the majority view.

Sometimes you can substitute 'New Order' for 'Westlife' on this site. Take away the social aspect of gigs these days and they are plain wank.

are you Blunder? sorry no he doesn't represent the majority view. each to their own. music is subjective.

blunderer's problem is that he thinks that he needs to convince us of the validity of his views.

sorry no. I haven't agreed with any of his points yet.

the more he tries to convince us of his views the more he come across as a dick.

he should just accept that most of us think differently to him

but imo technique is a brilliant album. brotherhood has glimpse pf brilliantness, but is badly executed. those songs sound so much better live.

when i saw blundrer agree with mr no holiday, i just thought yeh right of course he'll try and flame this issue.

he prolly doesn't even actually think that brotherhood is better that technique.

No need to get all hot under the collar because someone agrees with me, NOOligan.

As I have stated on several occasions I have my views and I have aired them on here.

I know you love New Order very much indeed, but someone thinking they should retire is not worth getting wound up about. Stay cool.

By the way, I do believe Brotherhood is a better album than Technique.

frankly i have decided not to care about your views anymore.

So that's why you chipped in with a bitchy comment when I posted on this thread, spent time writing the above post to Fac That and called me a dick, is it?

Yeah, you really don't care, do you?

Blunderer wrote:

Tim Castigating New Order for their poor lyrics is a bit daft as their lyrics have always been pretty trite. i cannot think of a single New Order song with genuinely good lyrics. And Every Little Counts is/was a half decent song, certainly more interesting than the majority of pop pap on Technique. It is possibly the only New Order song to illustrate their humour.

"Genuinely good" is an interesting one, what's your yardstick? Half of Ian Curtis's stuff was sixth form poetry.....

If ELC is a "half decent song", I have obviously got no idea about anything. Must have missed the "pop pap" on Technique as well, I can't hear anything I would call "pop" on there at all!

For the record, I'm no Technique lover either, but I do at least know what the songs on it sound like.....

Tim wrote:

Blunderer wrote:

Tim Castigating New Order for their poor lyrics is a bit daft as their lyrics have always been pretty trite. i cannot think of a single New Order song with genuinely good lyrics. And Every Little Counts is/was a half decent song, certainly more interesting than the majority of pop pap on Technique. It is possibly the only New Order song to illustrate their humour.

"Genuinely good" is an interesting one, what's your yardstick? Half of Ian Curtis's stuff was sixth form poetry.....

If ELC is a "half decent song", I have obviously got no idea about anything. Must have missed the "pop pap" on Technique as well, I can't hear anything I would call "pop" on there at all!

For the record, I'm no Technique lover either, but I do at least know what the songs on it sound like.....

We'll have to agree to disagree, Tim. Each to their own and all that. I rather like Every Second Counts. For a yardstick? Hmmm. I agree most Joy Division lyrics were a bit sixth form, in fact most popular music has poor lyrics. Suede were a band whose lyrics I enjoyed. The Smiths were excellent at times, too. New Order were always about the music to me.

Each to their own, Ally, my friend, each to their own.

I've got Get Ready and have a copied version of the recent one. I listened a fair bit to Get Ready, well 2 or 3 of the songs anyway. Siren's Call, though, I listened once and couldn't bring myself to listen again. So I do know the tunes you refer to.

ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: And Every Little Counts is/was a half decent song, certainly more interesting than the majority of pop pap on Technique.

Hilarious!

I always thought ELC was a sloppy Lou Reed rip off with lyrics so bad even Barney couldn't help but piss himself whilst singing them. Unless you use the "it's so shit it's quaintly good" argument that track really doesn't seem to have many redeeming features.

Not one of Hooky's most memorable basslines either, they should've tried harder.

You accuse New Order of being past it and non-groundbreaking these days and then cite a blatant Velvet Underground rip-off as a really good New Order tune? Personally, I'd much rather listen to something like Vicious Streak off Get Ready or Special from Republic as they're proper, fully-formed songs which sound like they had some effort put into them.

But I won't assume you'll have listened to those particular two as the band were no longer cutting edge when they released them; you probably won't have the albums! Ah well...

Vicious Streak even.

ELC is so bad that in fact............its terrible.

ally wrote: You traitor! You're betraying the golden days by listening to anything post-93

:p

Tut tut, Ally The golden days were well over by 93. The last of the golden days was the gig at GMEX at the end of 1988.:D

Tim wrote: Half of Ian Curtis's stuff was sixth form poetry......

Interesting comment coming from you Tim.

have to say I agree.

Fac That wrote:

Tim wrote: Half of Ian Curtis's stuff was sixth form poetry......

Interesting comment coming from you Tim.

have to say I agree.

Why interesting because it comes from me? I don't write sixth-form poetry!

Tim wrote:

Why interesting because it comes from me? I don't write sixth-form poetry!

first bad word I've heard you say (or is that seen you write?) about JOy Division. Thats all.

Believe me, there have been plenty over the years. The production of Unknown Pleasures, the cult of Curtis as martyr, choice of songs that made/got left off albums, the sheer volume of pretentiousness that surrounds fans of the band in many circles.....I could go on, but that would be boring.

Fac That wrote:

NOOLigan wrote:

and you said the majority view.

I know I did.

Are you fuckin brain dead????

that was the point.

i don't agree with you on brotherhood.

Not that I want to continue this thread any more, but I have some more things to say.....

First off, I don't try to make an impression. I speak my mind. Half of you guys are British people who seem to automatically disagree with everything I say simply because I said it- just admit it! I'm gonna say this, and take this with a grain of salt.....British people are incredible at making music, but I've noticed that many aren't exactly the most sociable when it comes to everyday conversation. I'm half joking when I say this, but a lot of British people act like they have their heads up their asses and their dialogue is always so full of negativity and profanity! With that said, I still love British people. Even the wankers on here who consistently ridicule me.......

Second of all, EVERY LITTLE COUNTS is GENIUS! That's right folks....I think it's brilliant. The lyrics aren't exactly Bob Dylan quality, but listen to the interaction between Hook's bass and the synths when the instrumental part starts. And how about the ending with that awesome drum beat! It's feel good music. It's not a statement song, but it's a very good one. A hell of a lot better than RUN.

Also, here's my issue with RUN. With all due respect to Barney, write your own fucking guitar solo! Don't jack John Denver's! That is LAME!

As far as ALL THE WAY goes, which bi the way I think is still a good song, with all due respect to Peter Hook, write your own fucking bassline! Don't blatently steal the bassline to "Just Like Heaven"! Not cool!

For the guy who said that WAY OF LIFE sounds like everything they've done before, tell me exactly what older New Order song it sounds like?? What bassline is it ripping off? Way Of Life always brings a smile to my face when I hear it. It's wonderful catchy pop, and a lot better than DREAM ATTACK! When I listen to WAY OF LIFE, I'm in excstacy (no pun intended). When I listen to DREAM ATTACK, I think, "decent, but where's Peter?".

I like Technique. I think it's mediocre by New Order's standards. I still think it's a good album which I enjoy listening to. I think Brotherhood is better. I love every song except Paradise. And for the person who asked which songs are acoustic, which songs are electric, and which are electronic? Wierdo and As It Was are acoustic, Broken Promise and Way Of Life are electric (although Wierdo, AIW, and WOL are both, really), and BLT-Every Little Counts is electronic. Paradise is Electric and Electronic. I think Brotherhood is sequenced perfectly. I think Technique isn't. It's awkward when you have a dance song like Round And Round followed by a rock song like Guilty Partner.

Some may prefer Technique. I prefer Brotherhood.

Thank You

J

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: First off, I don't try to make an impression. I speak my mind. Half of you guys are British people who seem to automatically disagree with everything I say simply because I said it- just admit it! I'm gonna say this, and take this with a grain of salt.....British people are incredible at making music, but I've noticed that many aren't exactly the most sociable when it comes to everyday conversation. I'm half joking when I say this, but a lot of British people act like they have their heads up their asses and their dialogue is always so full of negativity and profanity! With that said, I still love British people. Even the wankers on here who consistently ridicule me.......

Well you are a bit of a tw@ at times...

ally wrote:

Blunderer wrote: And Every Little Counts is/was a half decent song, certainly more interesting than the majority of pop pap on Technique.

Hilarious!

I always thought ELC was a sloppy Lou Reed rip off with lyrics so bad even Barney couldn't help but piss himself whilst singing them. Unless you use the "it's so shit it's quaintly good" argument that track really doesn't seem to have many redeeming features.

Not one of Hooky's most memorable basslines either, they should've tried harder.

You accuse New Order of being past it and non-groundbreaking these days and then cite a blatant Velvet Underground rip-off as a really good New Order tune? Personally, I'd much rather listen to something like Vicious Streak off Get Ready or Special from Republic as they're proper, fully-formed songs which sound like they had some effort put into them.

But I won't assume you'll have listened to those particular two as the band were no longer cutting edge when they released them; you probably won't have the albums! Ah well...

I would call Every Little Counts a playful Velvet Underground homage... with self-aware silly lyrics. New Order being playful and experimenting, risking embarrassing themselves. I like it. New Order had a lot of ideas, also showed that they had a sense of humour, and they knew that they were not a "normal" mainstream pop band... isn't this why New Order is great?

I'm just happy to have both Brotherhood and Technique, no point in griping years later. I admit that i used to skip tracks 3,4,5 all the time thou on both records

Both are great albums. Can't say which I like better because I adored both of them when I first heard them each. I can say that "Fine Time" still bugs me to this day. Never liked that song music wise. Something about the whole arrangement and the lyrics just bug me. I'm so glad that the rest of Technique didn't finish the way it started. Just my opinion.

I think that both albums are nice, but Technique was a god time for NO and was in a #1 in the UK charts!!!!

:)

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote:

Second of all, EVERY LITTLE COUNTS is GENIUS! That's right folks....I think it's brilliant. The lyrics aren't exactly Bob Dylan quality, but listen to the interaction between Hook's bass and the synths when the instrumental part starts. And how about the ending with that awesome drum beat! It's feel good music. It's not a statement song, but it's a very good one. A hell of a lot better than RUN.

Spotnick, how you getting on with the "avoid everything this twat writes, he doesn't know his arse from his elbow" facility that you were thinking of introducing?

El Jarvo wrote:

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: For the guy who said that WAY OF LIFE sounds like everything they've done before, tell me exactly what older New Order song it sounds like?? What bassline is it ripping off?

Fcuk me, that's easy. Way of Life opening bars equals Love Will Tear Us Apart opening bars.

After which it's basically then shit.

And is the same notes as Age of Consent in various places with a slightly different rhythm. Also goes back to LWTUA at the end.

Must admit I seem to dig out Brotherhood more these days than Technique. I think it's because, while Technique is polished, Brotherhood is more a collection of demos. Makes it a bit more interesting. I can't really compare the two, as they were approached in differing ways. Some highlights:

Paradise has a great drum and synth opening. The 'I want you..' bit always grated.

Weirdo is just a rushed song, and I love it.

AISAWIW's acoustic opening knocked me sideways when I first heard it, as it was the last thing I expected to hear in a NO song. Gives it a folk flavour.

The arrangement of ELC gives the album a nice close. Everything has been said about the lyrics.

Plus it has the best album cover EVER. IMHO.

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: Not that I want to continue this thread any more, but I have some more things to say.....

First off, I don't try to make an impression. I speak my mind. Half of you guys are British people who seem to automatically disagree with everything I say simply because I said it- just admit it! I'm gonna say this, and take this with a grain of salt.....British people are incredible at making music, but I've noticed that many aren't exactly the most sociable when it comes to everyday conversation. I'm half joking when I say this, but a lot of British people act like they have their heads up their asses and their dialogue is always so full of negativity and profanity! With that said, I still love British people. Even the wankers on here who consistently ridicule me.......

Second of all, EVERY LITTLE COUNTS is GENIUS! That's right folks....I think it's brilliant. The lyrics aren't exactly Bob Dylan quality, but listen to the interaction between Hook's bass and the synths when the instrumental part starts. And how about the ending with that awesome drum beat! It's feel good music. It's not a statement song, but it's a very good one. A hell of a lot better than RUN.

Also, here's my issue with RUN. With all due respect to Barney, write your own fucking guitar solo! Don't jack John Denver's! That is LAME!

As far as ALL THE WAY goes, which bi the way I think is still a good song, with all due respect to Peter Hook, write your own fucking bassline! Don't blatently steal the bassline to "Just Like Heaven"! Not cool!

For the guy who said that WAY OF LIFE sounds like everything they've done before, tell me exactly what older New Order song it sounds like?? What bassline is it ripping off? Way Of Life always brings a smile to my face when I hear it. It's wonderful catchy pop, and a lot better than DREAM ATTACK! When I listen to WAY OF LIFE, I'm in excstacy (no pun intended). When I listen to DREAM ATTACK, I think, "decent, but where's Peter?".

I like Technique. I think it's mediocre by New Order's standards. I still think it's a good album which I enjoy listening to. I think Brotherhood is better. I love every song except Paradise. And for the person who asked which songs are acoustic, which songs are electric, and which are electronic? Wierdo and As It Was are acoustic, Broken Promise and Way Of Life are electric (although Wierdo, AIW, and WOL are both, really), and BLT-Every Little Counts is electronic. Paradise is Electric and Electronic. I think Brotherhood is sequenced perfectly. I think Technique isn't. It's awkward when you have a dance song like Round And Round followed by a rock song like Guilty Partner.

Some may prefer Technique. I prefer Brotherhood.

Thank You

J

Im glad you cleared the acoustic, semi-acoustic, electric with acoustic intro, electric, electric with electronic, electronic with acoustic, semi-electonic with electric quandary.

I think you must have a different copy of Brotherhood to me. My ones got this simple song called Every Second Count which is abit of a filler track and doesnt have any drum beat at the end. It ends with lots of keyboard string effects, a needle being dropped on a record sound and then kicks into SOTN.

When I listen to Way of Life I think "wheres Gillian?". Is she making the tea or hiding in the corner.

I dont think Techniques track order is awkward. And Ive never even considered Guilty Partner to be a rock song.

Same far prefer live recordings any mistakes intact. No Hannett. Though Bless. To water things down, clean it or mix past recognition. Lots of loud bass and clean crisp drums. Where they should be. Competing with or just set w/ithin the venue.

mrgreen71 wrote: AIIWIW is a classic NO track imo, but like oldmonkey says, the guitar intro just doesn't fit into the song. And I like the live versions more than the album version.

This general theme has been said.. Brotherhood feels as if it was dulled and suffered on a rushed production line. Technique is genius for its synths work though hollow and at times feels tinny. A different year reflected on Vinyl on CD. Yet Brotherhood excels 'cause it feels more spontaneous. Worked out on stage or in the studio more than just on paper.

Fine Time is sublime. Listen to the downtime guitar that brings up the back layers every so often through the tune and you can't help but realize New Order are a class above. That Brotherhood and Techn. were works and play from the same band, the same three that stomped, slinked and went past loud 'an brash punk to be Joy Division. EDIT oops time and a place..
Both albums are excellent. Apples oranges. Don't see the attraction of Paradise or in parts even Dream Attack. Like the confidence and all that Technique is. Whistle Down the Wind. Fine TimeIf arsed. Listen at 1.25 2.19 at 2.44 through.

i shall conduct the ultimate subjective test today by listening to both albums back to back in the car.

i'm afraid the outcome is already determined.

NOOLigan wrote: i shall conduct the ultimate subjective test today by listening to both albums back to back in the car.

i'm afraid the outcome is already determined.

And not the "objective test"? Please don't spin.

[magenta]shedmonite61[/magenta] wrote:

NOOLigan wrote: i shall conduct the ultimate subjective test today by listening to both albums back to back in the car.

i'm afraid the outcome is already determined.

And not the "objective test"? Please don't spin.

I do hope you knew the difference between objective and subjective when you posted that.

Yeah. Unfortunately, I sound like Bill O'Reilly. I hate his guts.

[magenta]cozmonite61[/magenta] wrote: Yeah. Unfortunately, I sound like Bill O'Reilly. I hate his guys.

Yeah, me too. How do you feel about his guts, though? :D

I meant guts. Sorry for the typo. But I hate his guys too.

i have conducted my test. the results are that most of the Brotherhood songs do not linger long in my mind, whereas those on Technique do.

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: I know some of you love Technique, but let's be real here....MEDIOCRE!!!!! I listened to both albums back to back the past few days, and I get such a happy well being feeling listening to "WEIRDO", "AS IT WAS WHEN IT WAS", "WAY OF LIFE", "BLT", "that song after BLT about child abuse that I for some reason forgot the name of", and "EVERY LITTLE COUNTS"....."ANGEL DUST" and "BP" are also great, although not very cheerful.

Technique on the other hand, comes off as polished and at times, a bit dull......With that said, I LOVE "Fine Time", "Round and Round", and "Vanishing Point" tremendously. Those three songs are incredible. But 3 songs out of 9 ain't gonna cut it! "All the Way" is ok, but it sounds like the Cure. "Guilty Partner" reminds me of Joy Division a little bit, but is kind of dull, and never really takes off. "Love Less" and "Run" kind of stink, "Mr Disco" is nothing special, and "DREAM ATTACK" is decent, but it bugs me that Peter Hook is barely on the song! That song especially feels like it's missing something.

Just my two cents!!!!

J

Definitely different strokes for different folks. Brotherhood has an awful, muddled production quality, in my opinion, and also mostly mediocre songs, in my opinion, for the bands standars whereas Technique, in my view, has only one poor song in total. Interestingly you choose the two singles, and the one, wannabe single off Technique as the only quality songs. I identify the songs you chose as best, as by and large the worst, other than Vanishing point which has interesting qualities.

Really it's a fantastic album in my eyes. All the Way is brilliant and grows on you with time, loveless was a favorite immediately, Run is easily in my top 10 list of fav new order songs, Mr. Disco is flawless execution of a dance tune stuffed to the gills with beauty, vanishing point follows with epic verses (and would have been even better if they'd used the instrumental version as the final version to match the lyrics), and the coda, in dream attack. It's a spectacular album whose only flaws in my mind, were Fine Time (kind of by the numbers dance music), Round and Round (a similar complaint, but at least Round and Round had some amazing remixes, some interesting lyrics and a nice overall sound) and Guilty Partner, that took a very very long time for me to warm up too.

When it comes to Brotherhood, it's new order, so I'll always care about it, but if I had to go without New Order tunes of their prime era (in my view '82-'89), I don't think its a coincidence that I'd make do without this period of music. Some of their worst ever singles (Shell Shock, State of the Nation), and an album that sounded mostly like a collection of pieces of New Order filler, with a few exceptions. It's new order doing New order, and while it's still better than 95% of the albums out there at that time if not more, its nowhere near as good as Technique, Low-Life, or PCL in my opinion.

Paradise? Dull. Weirdo-I actually like, no one else does, As it is when it was would be perfect if they had used a better drum track, maybe even the bongos that REM used in live renditions of Swan Swan Humingbird and King of Birds from their '86-'87 era, broken promise is okay, all the way is dull, BLT is outrageously good, but the version on the album is the worst of all the versions they ever recorded, All Day Long is epic in magesty but missing something, its halfway to greatness, Angel Dust needed Evil Dust as the instrumental with Angel Dusts lyrics, either way though its just mediocre, and Im one of the few people on the earth who actually does like every little counts.

So when I look at it, I see only really one or two songs that I think are genuinely darn good, and a bunch of average tunes that weren't fully realized. Just my sense of things of course.

Foreign F**kwitt wrote:

Brotherhood is SOOO much better than Technique

IMO, yes. The general sound of Technique is polished indeed. Still it is well done and complete but then again it has never appealed to me as much as Brotherhood. I agree that Brotherhood is less (read: badly) produced but it's exactly what I like about New Order no matter how stupid it may sound. I'm a Movement/Low Life/Brotherhood fan and I get irritated when people slag them off. But I still think that Technique is a very appealing album although it sounds a bit dated at times. Dream Attack and Run are the only songs I ever listen to anymore

Who slags off Low-Life? Don't we all love it? I've always felt the only debate with Low-Life, is whether its #1, or #2 or #3 amongst their albums (usually #1 or #2). I am, however, a card carrying member of the "Movement sucks" contingent. It's an interesting period piece, transition, where you can feel the band moving about blindly trying to find their way to their sound without Ian, but it's not a very good album to me, most of the band, and to most critics at that time. I just cannot for the life of me understand why its loved by some. I don't see it at all. I can see that people who like rough production, might not appreciate the sleek qualities of Technique, I get that argument, even if I don't agree, but I just have never seen why there are devotees of Movement. It's such a disappointment to me, and is an album I tend to lose all the time because I so rarely listen to it, I only seem to listen to it when Im really depressed and really could use another fresh listen to, "here I am/in a house/full of doors/with no exits" sort of Ian-light lyrics that sometimes echo my own frustrations with life.

However, if you can get pleasure out of it, that's really whats important in the final analysis, I just wish I could find what you find in it, as it could then make for another New Order album I could love. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way for me. I just don't hear anything except a band that is lost, and confused, and not up to their full capacity yet when I hear it. Perhaps things would have been better if they'd waited to release their debut till '82, then it probably would have been stronger as by '82 they seemed to be picking up steam and getting what their "sound" really was.

Shug wrote:

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: Yeah, TECHNIQUE is such a better "album" from start to finish than Brotherhood......That's why it's scattered with dance track next to rock track.... J

Dance track next to Rock track

Name me one rock track on Technique. Go on, I dare you

I'd say "All the Way,", and if it counts, really the first half of "Run," is very much a rock track. They've got two guitars and a bass ripping it up after every verse and chorus, and it definitely rocks, till it goes out with that gorgeous melodic outro.

Stephen Smith wrote:

Foreign F**kwitt wrote:

Brotherhood is SOOO much better than Technique

IMO, yes. The general sound of Technique is polished indeed. Still it is well done and complete but then again it has never appealed to me as much as Brotherhood. I agree that Brotherhood is less (read: badly) produced but it's exactly what I like about New Order no matter how stupid it may sound. I'm a Movement/Low Life/Brotherhood fan and I get irritated when people slag them off. But I still think that Technique is a very appealing album although it sounds a bit dated at times. Dream Attack and Run are the only songs I ever listen to anymore

Who slags off Low-Life? Don't we all love it? I've always felt the only debate with Low-Life, is whether its #1, or #2 or #3 amongst their albums (usually #1 or #2). I am, however, a card carrying member of the "Movement sucks" contingent. It's an interesting period piece, transition, where you can feel the band moving about blindly trying to find their way to their sound without Ian, but it's not a very good album to me, most of the band, and to most critics at that time. I just cannot for the life of me understand why its loved by some. I don't see it at all. I can see that people who like rough production, might not appreciate the sleek qualities of Technique, I get that argument, even if I don't agree, but I just have never seen why there are devotees of Movement. It's such a disappointment to me, and is an album I tend to lose all the time because I so rarely listen to it, I only seem to listen to it when Im really depressed and really could use another fresh listen to, "here I am/in a house/full of doors/with no exits" sort of Ian-light lyrics that sometimes echo my own frustrations with life.

However, if you can get pleasure out of it, that's really whats important in the final analysis, I just wish I could find what you find in it, as it could then make for another New Order album I could love. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way for me. I just don't hear anything except a band that is lost, and confused, and not up to their full capacity yet when I hear it. Perhaps things would have been better if they'd waited to release their debut till '82, then it probably would have been stronger as by '82 they seemed to be picking up steam and getting what their "sound" really was.

You know Movement really sort of falls between a rock and a hard place. Joy Division fans slag it off because it's like JD in some ways, but not nearly as perfected as the "formula" was Ian. Ian-lite is a good way to describe it. New Order fans, on the other hand, slag it off because it's not representative of the electronic dance club happy-sad formula that the band would perfect on the subsequent album and on temptation and blue monday. I think that Movement is great for when you are in the mood for it. It's a bit faster and a little poppier than Joy Division, yet it's not poppy enough to fit in with the rest of New Order's catalogue. I still think it's solid, and other than the song Peter Hook sings on it, I think it's a good collection of songs. Keep in mind where the band was in their career at the time. Ian just killed himself. The band before that was known to make dark gothy postpunk which was often depressing, half of the time slow (see the first half of Unknown Pleasures), and instrumentally meloncholic. A band doesn't go from that to "THE VILLAGE" overnight. Movement represents the necessary step to the natural progression that New Order took in developing their music to be what it eventually became.

J

Fcuk off... Community 2 kicks every NO album's butt...

Snorri xxx

Stephen Smith wrote:

Who slags off Low-Life? Don't we all love it?

[black]HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE TAKE EVERY WORD LITERALLY AS AN EXCUSE TO POST CRAP! PAH![/black]

And yes, I meant Movement.

dreams never end beats wftsc in whole!

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: a lot of British people act like they have their heads up their asses and their dialogue is always so full of negativity and profanity! With that said, I still love British people. Even the wankers on here who consistently ridicule me.......

You're not secretly British are you?

Snorri xxx

both good. both different.

nuff said.

waste of time all the studymen's paragraphs on this thread.

Brotherhood is a decent album,in desperate need of re-mastering though!

NO Regret - when Brotherhood was originally released it was without STON, this was on the yankee release and then subesquentUK releases/reissues.

PC&L knocks them both into a cocked hat

Foreign F**kwitt wrote:

Stephen Smith wrote:

Who slags off Low-Life? Don't we all love it?

[black]HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE TAKE EVERY WORD LITERALLY AS AN EXCUSE TO POST CRAP! PAH![/black]

And yes, I meant Movement.

dreams never end beats wftsc in whole!

Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine! :D

The Haçienda must be (re)Built wrote: NO Regret - when Brotherhood was originally released it was without STON, this was on the yankee release and then subesquentUK releases/reissues.

PC&L knocks them both into a cocked hat

Hasn't SOTN always been on Brotherhood? I thought it was always present on the CD version,and only 'disappeared' now due to the fact that vinyl is dead.

steveone wrote:

The Haçienda must be (re)Built wrote: NO Regret - when Brotherhood was originally released it was without STON, this was on the yankee release and then subesquentUK releases/reissues.

PC&L knocks them both into a cocked hat

Hasn't SOTN always been on Brotherhood? I thought it was always present on the CD version,and only 'disappeared' now due to the fact that vinyl is dead.

nope. do the maths. two times 20 minutes. it was only ever on the cd and that is on the re-release cd.

It is on my pirate Brotherhood cd ner ner ner ner

Foreign F**kwitt wrote: It is on my pirate Brotherhood cd ner ner ner ner

yeh it also is on my new one, it just doesn't fit with the album. brotherhood should end with the needle skipping at the end of every little counts.

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote:

Stephen Smith wrote:

Foreign F**kwitt wrote:

Brotherhood is SOOO much better than Technique

IMO, yes. The general sound of Technique is polished indeed. Still it is well done and complete but then again it has never appealed to me as much as Brotherhood. I agree that Brotherhood is less (read: badly) produced but it's exactly what I like about New Order no matter how stupid it may sound. I'm a Movement/Low Life/Brotherhood fan and I get irritated when people slag them off. But I still think that Technique is a very appealing album although it sounds a bit dated at times. Dream Attack and Run are the only songs I ever listen to anymore

Who slags off Low-Life? Don't we all love it? I've always felt the only debate with Low-Life, is whether its #1, or #2 or #3 amongst their albums (usually #1 or #2). I am, however, a card carrying member of the "Movement sucks" contingent. It's an interesting period piece, transition, where you can feel the band moving about blindly trying to find their way to their sound without Ian, but it's not a very good album to me, most of the band, and to most critics at that time. I just cannot for the life of me understand why its loved by some. I don't see it at all. I can see that people who like rough production, might not appreciate the sleek qualities of Technique, I get that argument, even if I don't agree, but I just have never seen why there are devotees of Movement. It's such a disappointment to me, and is an album I tend to lose all the time because I so rarely listen to it, I only seem to listen to it when Im really depressed and really could use another fresh listen to, "here I am/in a house/full of doors/with no exits" sort of Ian-light lyrics that sometimes echo my own frustrations with life.

However, if you can get pleasure out of it, that's really whats important in the final analysis, I just wish I could find what you find in it, as it could then make for another New Order album I could love. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way for me. I just don't hear anything except a band that is lost, and confused, and not up to their full capacity yet when I hear it. Perhaps things would have been better if they'd waited to release their debut till '82, then it probably would have been stronger as by '82 they seemed to be picking up steam and getting what their "sound" really was.

You know Movement really sort of falls between a rock and a hard place. Joy Division fans slag it off because it's like JD in some ways, but not nearly as perfected as the "formula" was Ian. Ian-lite is a good way to describe it. New Order fans, on the other hand, slag it off because it's not representative of the electronic dance club happy-sad formula that the band would perfect on the subsequent album and on temptation and blue monday. I think that Movement is great for when you are in the mood for it. It's a bit faster and a little poppier than Joy Division, yet it's not poppy enough to fit in with the rest of New Order's catalogue. I still think it's solid, and other than the song Peter Hook sings on it, I think it's a good collection of songs. Keep in mind where the band was in their career at the time. Ian just killed himself. The band before that was known to make dark gothy postpunk which was often depressing, half of the time slow (see the first half of Unknown Pleasures), and instrumentally meloncholic. A band doesn't go from that to "THE VILLAGE" overnight. Movement represents the necessary step to the natural progression that New Order took in developing their music to be what it eventually became.

J

WTF? Movement and poppy in the same sentence?, yes I know you said poppier than JD but still. Movement IMHO is pure New Order raincoat brigade era greatness (you had to be there son). You'll find that Hooky sings on both DNE & DEH. The album was recorded almost a year after Ian's death so plenty of time to 'get over it'!!!

Cannot understand how people dislike the lp version of BLT in favour of the remixes? beggers belief.

Have to go with Tecnique as the better album.....by miles. Even with better production, Brotherhood is berift of classic songs other than BLT, AIIWIW. And I'm with Tim regarding Every Little Counts.

Talking about production, it's a pity that the band could'nt work with an album producer and decided to produce themselves after Hannett until 93. I think that it was needed especially PCL, Low-Life and Brotherhood.

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote:

....EVERY LITTLE COUNTS is GENIUS! That's right folks....I think it's brilliant. The lyrics aren't exactly Bob Dylan quality, but listen to the interaction between Hook's bass and the synths when the instrumental part starts. And how about the ending with that awesome drum beat! It's feel good music. It's not a statement song, but it's a very good one. A hell of a lot better than RUN.

Also, here's my issue with RUN. With all due respect to Barney, write your own fucking guitar solo! Don't jack John Denver's! That is LAME!

J

I know it's been pointed out that ELC is a Walk on the Wildside' rip off but need to point out that if you need to spout shite at least make your arguments coherent. To say Run is worse than ELC because part of it is ripped off from another song assumes ELC wasn't, hell they even sang 'walk on the wildside' lyrics while playing ELC.

Anyway as long as the song is good who cares about rip offs? And Run >>>> ELC.

Wow, I'm amazed how heated this got in places.

These are my two favorite records in the world. I adore both of them and rank them *extremely* close. In the end, the nod goes to Technique because it's pretty much perfect. It's a beautiful album, beginning to end (and I still love Round&Round) and has fantastic production. I feel it's NO at the very top of their game, the pinnacle.

My personal ranking (studio albums only) would probably go:

Technique Brotherhood Low-Life PCL WFTSC Republic Get Ready Movement

Boy's got a point. I'll take Brotherhood every time. There is just too much technique on Technique. Not quite the order.

god tamer wrote: Boy's got a point. I'll take Brotherhood every time. There is just too much technique on Technique. Not quite the order.

Yes

Stephen Smith wrote:

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: I know some of you love Technique, but let's be real here....MEDIOCRE!!!!!

Technique on the other hand, comes off as polished and at times, a bit dull...... But 3 songs out of 9 ain't gonna cut it! is kind of dull, and never really takes off. kind of stink nothing special Just my two cents!!!! J

Really it's a fantastic album in my eyes. Mr. Disco is flawless execution of a dance tune stuffed to the gills with beauty, vanishing point follows...

It's a spectacular album whose only flaws in my mind, were Fine Time (kind of by the numbers dance music)

Some of their worst ever singles (Shell Shock, State of the Nation), and an album that sounded mostly like a collection of pieces of New Order filler, with a few exceptions. It's new order doing New order, and while it's still better than 95% of the albums out there at that time if not more, its nowhere near as good as Technique, Low-Life, or PCL in my opinion.

No Holiday. Accept it or p' haps listen to something you enjoy. my two cents.

Ste. Smith agreed on your take of Brotherhood quality. Truth, even if New Order nonchalant by numbers. The numbers are just. so. fine. Anytime.

brotherhood might lack some sound and production quality but wasnt that in the day when we wanted less technical albums from them anyway and raw stuff instead ? most of brotherhood is great.techinque is even better i agree,although i hate finetime.but as a carlberg advert would say 'lowlife is probally the best all round album in the world ever'

The day i bought Brotherhood (September 30th ,1986 and i had the afternoon off work for some reason ,which was nice, so was able to listen to it at my leisure) i still recall as the blackest day in all my time as a New Order fan.After completing my first listen a great depression decended and a overwelming feeling of "Is.That.IT?!!" :( .The thing was i had actually wanted a lot of the guitar type songs on the album but at first they just sounded shit.At the time it was such a big let down after the euphoria of Low Life the previous year.But after living with it for a few months i did come to love it.A year or so later i was listening to it 3 times a day .

But is it better than Technique? naaah

it aint even better than any bestof ,,substance..retro mix up,,

whatever,

you all take whatever you want from an order album,,in 81 we all said gillian should sing more ,,the album needed.life well we got it for years to come and now ,,movement is my nearest fave to sirens...,,icant wait for the next one .

didsburys boys consent.

There may not be a next one, 79 Order. Didn't you hear Peter Hook saying that this may be the end of New Order, or are you in a house with no doors and no exits?

J

MLANH- "My Life Ain't No Holiday" wrote: There may not be a next one, 79 Order. Didn't you hear Peter Hook saying that this may be the end of New Order, or are you in a house with no doors and no exits?

J

Surely not the same Peter Hook that you denounced as being "full of shit"? Being selective on what you accept and don't accept from the horse's mouth now are we?

yup selective it is ,,,,,hooky was very reticent on order continuing 93,,98. and when push came to shove barney said ,,,yup lets do another,,, to the astonishment of the crew! ,

believe in me .

I love em both in different ways.

However at the time I did think there was something a bit soulless about some of Technique. Did I read somewhere that they were off their tits in Ibiza when they wrote/recorded Fine Time, which might explain the clanky over-sequenced music and the lyrics (if anything ever could explain them...)?

For what its worth, I've always thought of Every Second Counts as an amusing little postscript, the album's chill-out zone.

I have listened to both of them. Turns out that I like both of them the same.

Technique is NOT overated, but I think that Brotherhood is definitely UNDERATED as an album. Brotherhood got me hooked and Technique cemented it. Two great albums.....why people pit them against each other I don't know. Two of my fav NO albums for sure.

Just much. too. Temptin. Not sure what is more Scary. That it took less than a minute to track this Bizarre thread down. Or that I've gone and resurfaced it.

Patrick wrote:

Yes

We all have our individual tastes in regards to New Order, so such debates are pointless. What may be "fabulous" or "good" to one person here may be irrelevant to another person here.

"DREAM ATTACK" is decent,

J

What Does mean decent for you??

Dream Attack is a pretty good tune...as all the rest of Technique!!

Technique is my favourite NO album

Technique is better...

Brotherhood has "All Day Long", Technique doesn't. Technique may be the more consistent, and cohesive album, but I'd rather have "All Day Long" than the whole Technique album, even with it's great set of songs.

Power, Corruption, and Lies is personal favorite. Low-Life would be excellent if they included the original versions of The Perfect Kiss, and Elegia. Hopefully they'll extend it when they eventually remaster the albums.

No Holiday wrote: I know some of you love Technique, but let's be real here....MEDIOCRE!!!!! I listened to both albums back to back the past few days, and I get such a happy well being feeling listening to "WEIRDO", "AS IT WAS WHEN IT WAS", "WAY OF LIFE", "BLT", "that song after BLT about child abuse that I for some reason forgot the name of", and "EVERY LITTLE COUNTS"....."ANGEL DUST" and "BP" are also great, although not very cheerful.

Technique on the other hand, comes off as polished and at times, a bit dull......With that said, I LOVE "Fine Time", "Round and Round", and "Vanishing Point" tremendously. Those three songs are incredible. But 3 songs out of 9 ain't gonna cut it! "All the Way" is ok, but it sounds like the Cure. "Guilty Partner" reminds me of Joy Division a little bit, but is kind of dull, and never really takes off. "Love Less" and "Run" kind of stink, "Mr Disco" is nothing special, and "DREAM ATTACK" is decent, but it bugs me that Peter Hook is barely on the song! That song especially feels like it's missing something.

Just my two cents!!!!

J

:bollocks:!, shut it bitch tits!

Are you really on the same planet as us?