What happened to Peter Saville's brain?

...between, say, June 1993 and July 1997? Severe oxygen defecit? Stroke?

I'm checking out the Singles discography on this very site, and I can't understand how the stunning design genius displayed between 1980 and 1987 went so very wrong.

I do love the "Regret" cover, but what is up with "Spooky," "True Faith 94," "Nineteen63," and "Blue Monday 95?" :\puke:

I mean, what the @#&^@ is this:

I can see the value in recycling aluminum cans, but how the hell did this ever get out the door?

Show me...please show me.

I thought all the Republique artwork was pretty cool, i agree with you on the other observations tho....

too much paint thinner and autoerotic asphyxiation that went on a little too long

...now you're getting Peter Saville confused with Michael Hutchens, Iain...he certainly doesn't deserve that! ;)

I really like Spooky, especially the 12".

1963 was a bit cack i agree.

Originally posted by janaki ...now you're getting Peter Saville confused with Michael Hutchens, Iain...he certainly doesn't deserve that! ;)

But I have top secret information that I can't tell you about and the fact that you know I have it means I have to kill you. Sorry :( But my mom says she forgives you, J! :)

...well, at least i've been forgiven before i'm about to die, yesh?

a toast, then.

will you at least have the good grace to let me die with my headphones on, Iain...? :D

('twould be a most opportune moment for a J*A*M*C incident here, 'cept i'd never say that i'd want to die with the radio on... )

I guess I have trouble understanding how one goes from

this to this

without taking a strong blow to the head in between.

I mean, 1987 was a long time ago...for 1994, we'll put the leaf...IN SPACE...yeah. toke It'll be a furturistic space leaf to show all the time that has passed.

Blue Monday 95 looks like a disposable tablecloth for a picnic table.

Have you seen any of those "Techno Flyer" graphic design books? The trend in the mid nineties was all that slick, spacey shite that ruined the Whole Republic Era (including the rereleases of BM, True Faith and 1963). Every artist evolves but it seems Saville is more into following trends than starting new ones. I guess his career mirrors New Orders' in that sense. To be honest, I don't really like any of the artwork after Shellshock. Substance is really boring, True faith is decent and unoffensive and Fine Time Blows. Run2 - not impressed. Technique and Round and Round are good but nothing any kid with a basic knowledge of photoshop couldn't throw together in 5 minutes. It's not that his work was particularly bad just not of the god-like status he's attained.

my favorite sleeves:

Shellshock BLT & State Blue Monday Temptation

I actually like the Get Ready sleeves, but I'd run screaming from anyone who cornered me at a cocktail party and tried to tell me their artistic significance.

From Artists on Thiopental Sodium magazine:

"So, Peter, what was the idea behind the Get Ready sleeve?"

"We'll, it was just a plain photo at first, and I didn't know how I was going to take credit for a plain photo and get paid, so I stuck a red bar across it. It took about a minute."

"Thanks Peter."

"You're welcome."

Originally posted by Gnu Odor I guess I have trouble understanding how one goes fromthis to this without taking a strong blow to the head in between.

...what's making you assume that he didn't...?

a lot could've happened that might not necessarily have made any sort of news outlets in between the times of those two covers. for all you know, there could've been some sort of body-snatching alien incident involving Señor Saville! you just NEVER CAN TELL, can you? :D

...or maybe he tried to drink someone under the table and hit his head very hard on the way down at some point...?

what i'm saying is, don't discount this possibility. 'twould be sheer folly to do so. :D

If you go to the "official" U.S. web site

http://www.neworderweb.com/singles/index.shtml

the progression is all the more dramatic, 'cause all of the U.S. single covers are lined up right on top of each other in one long column. Right around 1988 you can see where his brain quite clearly exploded.

Seriously, kids, try it.

Several other designers other than Peter have worked on the bands sleeves with him acting as art director. Down the years Gillian Gilbert has had a go as designer, Martha Ladly (of the "Muffins" & Peters girlfriend at the time) designed the sleeve for "Temptation". Bernard has had a bit of input obviously but I tend to believe that the best sleeves were those that involved Brett Wickens.

After Peter & Brett left Pentagram following the break up of Peter Saville Associates, Brett left for the States (he now works in San Francisco with FKB West)

Peter now works with Howard Wakefield and while I really like the current artwork (with the exception of that horrendous New Order "signature" which Saville had nothing to do with BTW) I don't think we can expect him to simply re-hash the minamilist approach over & over again.

Some sleeves completely changed track ("Republic") and imho it was then that Peter truly demonstrated his skills as both a designer and a "concepts" man...

Originally posted by Steven Brotherdale Peter now works with Howard Wakefield and while I really like the current artwork (with the exception of that horrendous New Order "signature" which Saville had nothing to do with BTW) I don't think we can expect him to simply re-hash the minamilist approach over & over again.Some sleeves completely changed track ("Republic") and imho it was then that Peter truly demonstrated his skills as both a designer and a "concepts" man...

So what you're saying, basically, is that Peter's brain didn't necessarily explode?

;)

I like the Republic© sleeve quite a bit, right down to the little superfluous copyright symbol, which fits right in with the stock photo/Los Angeles/major label/fake boobs/corporate product vibe. Considering the version of Photoshop that was out at the time (3.5, maybe?), that sleeve is a technical wonder.

I still think Spooky is, technically speaking, icky. The space backdrop and the brush font escape me as far as a progression from the album design...except to play up the ugliest bits.

Who was behind that caffeine/electroshock signature? It does seem entirely wrong for a band that has such a long history of being "faceless" and "detached."

Oh wait...I'm turning into that guy at the cocktail party!

I joined the Shamen as their cover illustrator/artist & creator of their live show projection imagery in '90 and about a year later after seeing my work, I was contacted by Peter with a view to commissioning me to work on the Yohji Yamamoto winter catalogue for '91. I was delighted by this of course and it enabled me to find out so much more about Factory and his work & friendship with Joy Division/New Order. As a result of this, he introduced me to his then partner Brett Wickens & long time friend Malcolm Garrett of "Assorted Images" - I went on to work on a few projects with "A.I." & I still speak with Peter every month or so just to keep in touch.

So there you have it. Not so much part of any "inner sanctum" at all but lucky enough to be professionally linked rather than simply a fan with an unhealthy obsession...which I also quite obviously suffer from anyway...

Barney wanted the signature on the cover and Peter actually considered taking his name off the sleeve as a result....

Originally posted by Gnu Odor > Originally posted by Steven Brotherdale> > Peter now works with Howard Wakefield and while I really like the current artwork (with the exception of that horrendous New Order "signature" which Saville had nothing to do with BTW) I don't think we can expect him to simply re-hash the minamilist approach over & over again.> > Some sleeves completely changed track ("Republic") and imho it was then that Peter truly demonstrated his skills as both a designer and a "concepts" man...

So what you're saying, basically, is that Peter's brain didn't necessarily explode?

;)

I like the Republic© sleeve quite a bit, right down to the little superfluous copyright symbol, which fits right in with the stock photo/Los Angeles/major label/fake boobs/corporate product vibe. Considering the version of Photoshop that was out at the time (3.5, maybe?), that sleeve is a technical wonder.

I still think Spooky is, technically speaking, icky. The space backdrop and the brush font escape me as far as a progression from the album design...except to play up the ugliest bits.

Who was behind that caffeine/electroshock signature? It does seem entirely wrong for a band that has such a long history of being "faceless" and "detached."

Oh wait...I'm turning into that guy at the cocktail party!

Haven't you seen the "real" Spooky sleeve? The one with the urban night skyline? And the "Z New Order Release" instead of "A New Order Release"?

Well I am a graphic designer by occupation and I'd like to say that Peter Saville's designs have always infuriated me. Simply cos when they're good, they're very good and when they're bad, they're utter cack.

I've noticed his quality control slipping of late ever since 1992 to be honest with you all here... The stuff he did for Get Ready is moribund in the extreme. Why this dated obsession with the colour white? Doesn't he know that when you have WHITE packaging it very easily goes grimy or off colour? Ditto the FACTORY BOX CASSETTE packaging that happened in the mid 80's .... Guess who picked the short straw for the WHITE boxes? Yup. New Order. Go to any collectors fair now and pick up these artefacts if you're lucky enough to see them - chances are they're grimy as fuck. Not nice. Especially when I like my stuff pristine and new anyway.

So, Saville - some of his classic sleeves are stuff he did with the very much underrated OMD in their earlier hipper phase: Like the blue cut-out "waffle/grid" sleeve design for their first eponymous album. Then the one he did for "Architecture and Morality" Then the one he did for the 12" single "Maid Of Orleans" (very very striking) Then the one he did for their "Dazzle Ships" album (still highly rated in those "Best LP covers of all time" lists believe it or not!)

The only New Order/Joy Division ones I like are actually

Closer Atmosphere Love Will Tear Us Apart Ceremony 7" Blue Monday - first issue die-cut floppy disk 12" PC&L Low Life Technique CD Booklet Fine Time - original 12" Round & Remix 12" World In Motion - original 12" (the concept was clever, the record, cheesy) Regret 12"

and that's it!

The covers for BOTH compilations are CRAP - IMHO Substance
and The Best / Rest Of. Too much white for my liking. With crap nonsensical splodges of colour as a poor excuse for something more substantial and meaningful...

Shellshock is also abysmal too. Can't make up my mind about both editions of True Faith (1987 and 1994) however, and 1963 was bit kindergarten wasn't it? Blue Monday 1995 was like the Testcard thing on TV - probably that was the intention. So. Naff.

I think his best work is long past him to tell you the truth.

He was a design icon of the 80s. And it shows.

Besides, MARK FARROW is the most original and creative album packaging and concept designer of the time now - look at the sterling work he's done for bands like Spiritualized, Manic Street Preachers, Pet Shop Boys, etc... He appears to have stolen Saville's thunder - not to mention his sense of creative nous.

imho Mark Farrow is even more of a thief than Saville when it comes to his graphic design piracy...

Oooooooooo....tonight on The Jerry Springer Show..."Your Favorite Graphic Designer is a Derivative Hack and Sleeps With Livestock."

BTW, I freely admit that the cover I did for my second EP is an absolute rip-off of Low-Life. Outright theft. Criminal.

And I much prefer that "other" Spooky sleeve.

i like the get ready art work (could you call it art work? it's just photographs). my first impression of the stuff was that it reminded me of club monaco or calvin Kline ads (the skinny waif-like girl who looks ultra poor and cool at the same time...) but i really didn't like any of the repulic era stuff. it looks cheap and not very sophisicated.

Originally posted by Steven Brotherdale Barney wanted the signature on the cover and Peter actually considered taking his name off the sleeve as a result....

Well, at least they made it as inconspicuous as possible (on the CD anyway; it's absent from the U.S. release of Crystal). Honestly, the first place I saw it was on a T-shirt, when I said "What the **** is that?" Then I took a closer look and found it on the CD, unfortunately (it just doesn't work with the rest of the layout).

I've always seen classic serif typefaces as a Joy Division thing: mechanical, technical, formal, and firmly rooted in the industrial past. (Which makes a nice look for the Substance cover, which is a collection of classic tracks.) New Order tends toward the more self-consciously modern, generic, for the masses sans serif faces...(wait...here it comes again... ).

The New Order scribble...no sir, I don't like it. I could do without that cursive Electronic logo from "Raise the Pressure" as well. Gnu Odor has spoken. Let it be so.

As far as video, my man Kurt Ralske (aka Ultra Vivid Scene) has given up on guitar music and now works on video synthesis and ambient music. See http://www.miau-miau.com/ -- I'd love to get anyone's take on that.

Oh yeah, and to answer my original question (about Peter Saville's brain)...

I blame his time in Los Angeles 100%.

Los Angeles is also to blame for the Horrible Charlatans LP and Morrissey being less important than a pimple on Britney's ass.

As for Kurt Ralske, the Joy lp is one of my favorite albums of all time. To hear he is doing all electronic stuff now makes me even more interested to seek out new releases.

What Charlatans Horrible LP!

Originally posted by Geaux Hagen Los Angeles is also to blame for the Horrible Charlatans LP and Morrissey being less important than a pimple on Britney's ass. As for Kurt Ralske, the Joy lp is one of my favorite albums of all time. To hear he is doing all electronic stuff now makes me even more interested to seek out new releases.

W-w-w-whaaaat??? What "electronic" stuff???

It's been MUCH TOO LONG since we last heard from Ultra Vivid Scene.!!!!! Put it this way - about ten years ago, they were getting confused wth a bunch of sad retro-Brummies called Ocean Colour Scene. Unthinkable or what??

Anyway, my fave was his first album (self titled) - brings back some great memories of that gorgeous long hot summer of 1989 for me (yes - in Britain!!). Some of the most swoonsome and downright poptastic songs on that one!

;)

the charlatans fell off after Up To Our Hips. I know you brits like the North Country Boy bullshit Oasis wannbe nonsense that they've turned to but when they played here last year, they were awful with the exception of their older material (finale Sprotson Green in particular was amazing). I've seen them a couple times (1994 & 2001) and the 94 show was much much better. They weren't playing that brit rock shite they are now peddling. Same goes for the Order and Slow Jam. Derivitive and boring.

Some Friendly, Half of Between... and most of Up to OUr Hips are great...after that, they lost the plot...admit it you guys!

I cant believe no one has mentioned Ruined In A Day..

The plots definatly lost on this one!

Originally posted by Geaux Hagen the charlatans fell off after Up To Our Hips. I know you brits like the North Country Boy bullshit Oasis wannbe nonsense that they've turned to but when they played here last year, they were awful with the exception of their older material (finale Sprotson Green in particular was amazing). I've seen them a couple times (1994 & 2001) and the 94 show was much much better. They weren't playing that brit rock shite they are now peddling. Same goes for the Order and Slow Jam. Derivitive and boring.Some Friendly, Half of Between... and most of Up to OUr Hips are great...after that, they lost the plot...admit it you guys!

Tellin' Stories is IMHO The Charlatans best...and shits on Oasis from a great height ;)

Ah, Kurt...again, check out the URL above. He's still alive and quite busy, apparently. When I said "electronic" though, I meant "seriously ambient electronic." UVS is gone, daddy, gone.

See "U2: Rattle and Hum" for documentary evidence of what too much time in the American West will do to your brain (our forum friends from the rainy Northwest excluded, of course).

Speaking of design and the Recycle box, wouldn't it be wonderful if they rereleased the singles in the "original" packaging? A box with a little 5" Perfect Kiss sleeve inside?

Yeah it's a rip off, but fun to think about:

On October 5, 1999 the Catalog Marketing Group of EMI Music Distribution will celebrate the millennium in true, back-to-the-future style with "CD Album Replicas" and/or limited-edition 180-gram vinyl reissues of platinum-plus titles from the Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney & Wings, R.E.M., Heart, Steve Miller, Bob Seger, Grand Funk, and Roxy Music.

Ten titles in the series will be available in "CD Album Replica" versions. These will duplicate all the elements of the original albums' packaging - only reconfigured to the approximate size of the familiar jewel-box.

Furthermore, all of these albums' original packaging elements (gatefold jackets; special sleeves; any posters, stickers, inserts, etc.) have been reproduced and restored - using the original film art - to their former glory. (English translation: These CDs will look just like your beloved original pressings - minus any candle wax you might've spilled on 'em at that wild party back in the day - only smaller.)

This marks the first time that an American company has made such an extensive commitment to this new format. Each of these "CD Album Replicas" has been digitally remastered as well.

Originally posted by Oh Look! There Goes The Laughing Martian Again!! Besides, MARK FARROW is the most original and creative album packaging and concept designer of the time now - look at the sterling work he's done for bands like Spiritualized, Manic Street Preachers, Pet Shop Boys, etc...

The most dynamic, innovative, mind-blowing conceptual artist of this or any time ever is...

ROGER DEAN!

Every new record sleeve he does is a stunning 180-degree mindf***. You never know what that guy is going to do next.

Originally posted by Gnu Odor See "U2: Rattle and Hum" for documentary evidence of what too much time in the American West will do to your brain (our forum friends from the rainy Northwest excluded, of course).

Thank you very much for that comment. The check is in the mail from our local Chamber of Commerce.

Originally posted by Oh Look! There Goes The Laughing Martian Again!! Why this dated obsession with the colour white?

Oh man, you're gonna hate Janaki's web site:

http://www.kerfuffle.org/

Very minimal, yet thought-provoking.

And Allan, you know I only said that so you wouldn't send Bigfoot after us.

Originally posted by Gnu Odor Oh man, you're gonna hate Janaki's web site:

http://www.kerfuffle.org/

Very minimal, yet thought-provoking.

:p yes. i have yet to get off my lazy arse and do anything with the main page. so there's only my blog (append blog/ to the above to see it) for the moment. mostly cos i've been too busy with the band page and Discs of Fury. and, you know, the rest of my life. and sleeping through band practice.

or you can take it with purely meditative intent. either way. ;)