ShugZV wrote:

Nick King wrote:

Completely agree - multiple CD's full of versions of the same track would bore me senseless - the PSB reissues are a perfect example of how a remaster should be - include a couple of demos, the odd vinyl-only remix, and everyone's happy. Just filling up a CD with World In Motion remixes would, however, annoy Shug, so that should be a starter for 10! :p

Emile Strunz wrote: Not sure what happened there but I'll try again

'm sorry, but the PSB albums 2nd discs gave you the distinct impression that some thought and care had been put into their production. We're not talking about loading the discs with every dumb remix every made - but selecting versions that haven't been available widely on CD.

do you collect the PSB? a lot of those tracks were available through aurally, and other bootlegs...also if you collected the cd-singles, and vinyl, you had most of those...[and some other missing tracks]..

i agree that there was thought put into the package, especially the booklets however, the tracklisting was not optimal to me..

So -1, the PSB reissues were seen as an opportunity to round up selected stuff that wasn't that widely available. That is what this project should have been, and the fact that it isn't is fucking despicable, lazy, and a real pain in the fucking arse.

Wilson and Gretton may have had their critics around mismanagement, but you could have guaranteed that if they were involved in this project, it would have been fucking great.

a lot of those tracks that you mentioned are already available, granted some are harder to find than others..

basically it boils down to the same problem

YOU CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY ALL THE TIME..

were people happy with the following?

substance (no) - cut off tracks best of (no) - not complete rest of (no) - some didn't like the new mixes international (no) - not complete retro-4cd (no) - didn't like the selection retro-5cd (no) - wanted more rarities singles (no) - still wasn't complete 12 x 12 (no) - not on cd, and some didn't like the new mixes

how in the world would anyone would be happy with these? given the 100% failure rate of the previous releases? [and i'm not even talking about videos etc..]

there are 3 main groups of people that need to be addressed

1. casual/indifferent people - will buy the remasters and be happy (some hardcore collectors will buy it to be completist - and complain)

2. casual collectors - will buy it (maybe), but still complain

a)hardcore picky fans - will not buy it [want all remixes, everything available] b)hardcore selective fans - want to have a choice selection of tracks THEY think should be there, including rarities,demos, mixes, etc THAT WILL MAKE THEM HAPPY

so what do you do? nothing, you compromise, as always......OR

don't you think we could make our own (yet, again).

through this board, we have access to many demos, all the b-sides, mixes etc.....don't you think they are available? remastered? and complete? yes, yes, and yes...

we could easily take those, once this set is released, to see what gaps it fills in, and then match it up..

singles 2, retro 2, recycled............whatever you want to call it.

i've mapped out a 30 cd set ! (or 5 dvd-r s)...........that could contain almost EVERY single track from them.....in cd quality...........and that doesn't include demos, or soundboard, or live tracks from DVD's that have been released recently..

you could take those, and mix and match your own version..

want mixes? fit as many as you want.

want b-sides / rarities ? here you go....all you can fill up .

want your own custom version? no problem.........

[and yes, i have gone back for PSB, and Depeche mode, and made my own versions....]

=================================================== should we have to do this...no shouldn't the record company take care of it? ....they didn't is this a 'grey' area........of course...

yes, the record company is being lazy, do we have to live with it? no, not all....

so instead of complaining about it, BE PROACTIVE, TAKE CONTROL...... why not make suggestions, and contribute if you can....

THIS IS DOABLE, i've been on projects before where you had a common goal............ and it has worked out pretty well....

think about it..... it is within reach...

..... recycled ........

later -1

Demos/Edits/Soundboards - if the band aren't happy with the particular version, they won't allow it to appear - doesn't matter what the record company think...

Nick King wrote: Demos/Edits/Soundboards - if the band aren't happy with the particular version, they won't allow it to appear - doesn't matter what the record company think...

i don't even want to imagine the nightmare that licensing out tracks from factory/london and other labels have been through the years..

these are not simple issues, and cost a lot of money to resolve..

i am not a lawyer, but if you (the band, label) don't have everything licensed properly you (the fan) will not be able to have access to those..

thats why the fan edits/bootlegs bypass this restriction..

later -1

-1 wrote:

YOU CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY ALL THE TIME..

No you can't. But you can try and do your best. You have 80 minutes of free space on the bonus disc and try to select what most people from the different gropus would want. But, by the look of that tracklisting, they didn't even try, and that's what people are complaining about. Not about the specifics, or the individual tracks, but about the fact that they get a poor 40 mins bonus with the same stuff as before. The PSB and DM sets may not be perfect, but at least they show respect for the fans. This doesn't.

Goratrix wrote:

-1 wrote:

YOU CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY ALL THE TIME..

No you can't. But you can try and do your best. You have 80 minutes of free space on the bonus disc and try to select what most people from the different gropus would want. But, by the look of that tracklisting, they didn't even try, and that's what people are complaining about. Not about the specifics, or the individual tracks, but about the fact that they get a poor 40 mins bonus with the same stuff as before. The PSB and DM sets may not be perfect, but at least they show respect for the fans. This doesn't.

i agree with you, i agree with you, i agree with 99%

see there, i can be agreeable..

but it's that 1 last % that kills you...

they are literally 'damned' if you do, and 'damned' if you dont.....

my point is that even if they did fill up the rest of the 40mins, even if they were 80 minutes long, AND IF (and this is a huge if), they were 3cd sets.... and had demos, rarities, and ALL the non-vinyl mixes...

you know what, i would not be suprised that THERE WOULD STILL BE COMPLAINTS>>>>>>>>>> YES <<<<< AND LOTS of them...

there is no solution set, to the 3 groups of fans, that is sufficient to make them all simultaneously happy, even if you made 90% of them happy, 80% happy, heck even 50% of them happy......

i really don't see how the majority of this board, and the rest of the fans, can HONESTLY say they would be pleased with ANY effort that did (hypothetically) get released....

its a losing battle..............the minute the posting went up, it was all downhill from there, how could it not be?

once again, no-one here on this board, will admit that they have ever been happy with any of the new order releases (or if they do, they will not admit it)..

please feel free to prove me wrong..

[also, i fall into the category of semi-hardcore collector that will buy everything just for the sake of completeness, including compilations for just one track, stupid dj remix sets for rare mixes, and all kinds of other crap, just because new order decided to put something out there, yes, its a sad state, i know..................................... ]

later -1

Goratrix wrote:

-1 wrote:

YOU CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY ALL THE TIME..

No you can't. But you can try and do your best. You have 80 minutes of free space on the bonus disc and try to select what most people from the different gropus would want. But, by the look of that tracklisting, they didn't even try, and that's what people are complaining about. Not about the specifics, or the individual tracks, but about the fact that they get a poor 40 mins bonus with the same stuff as before. The PSB and DM sets may not be perfect, but at least they show respect for the fans. This doesn't.

Quite. Which was my original point. An opportunity to gather up unavailable material and provide something of value for the fans. A bonus disc full of remixes would be fucking awful. A disc that acted as a historical document for the band -a moment in time that captured them at a certain point in their career - is what we are talking about here, and which wouldn't be a million miles away from what is being proposed so far. The shame is that it wouldn't take much to fix this situation - the odd track here, a curio there, a rare remix here, an unreleased version there etc etc

After the Retro fiasco you would have thought that lessons had been learned, and they couldn't possibly release something half-baked. The fans just wouldn't stand for it. Would they? WOULD THEY?!!

And after the bonus disc on the Glasgow DVD, maybe we thought a corner had been turned.

Fat fucking chance.

I certainly agree with the piss poor selection. The Cure remasters, and Depeche Remasters may not be "definitive", but they at least gathered a document of the era of each album. For example, look at "Black Celebration" by DM, it all started with "Shake the Disease" which sounds nothing like what would come afterwards, with other variable songs such as "Flexible", a song as off kilter to DM as "Fine Time" is to New Order. The diversity of each era is what I, as a fan would like to have on CD. The Cure gave us Demo's which sweetened the re-release of classics like "kiss me, kiss me, kiss me" and for a band like New Order, who's singles are mostly very different compared to their album counterparts, we're not asking much. Other fans have brought up things like the early versions of "Temptation" only being available on Retro and Singles, its not hard to post them both on the PCL remaster is it? I do give the band credit for not loading the discs up with live tracks, it's still not exactly reasonable to "half ass" these releases.

all these mentions to The cure and Depeche Mode :dead:

The thing is ... with these upcoming remasters, that the record companie(s) have to learn from mistakes made earlier. And nowadays we as die hard fans all are worried BECAUSE they didn't learn from these things since 1994 with (The Best Of) New Order.

Back then it was kinda forgiveable for us fans, because we never had any 7 inch compilation disc or so. But they kept giving us the same shit over & over again, often with the wrong song titles (Run 2)

These days we assume that they have learned their lesson(s), but we have no REASON to believe they will do a better job on the new ones.

That's what bothers me a lot.

i think the point in time has come where we just have to accept these remasters as what they actually proclaim to be ie remasters of the lp's

despite how disapointing this may be, this seems to be the case. the bonus disc is what it is. . . a bonus, with a few remastereed b'sides etc...

i personally doubt if i'll buy any/many of these as i have them now on vinyl and cd... the sound quality is not hte reason i listen to them on any particular day, and cleaning them up wont change that.....

Col

I think people are confusing what these actually are.

Seems people are expecting to have everything they ever said did or thought for a certain time period in one package. THat's not what these are: they're album reissues - that's it.

Supply is less then demand, they re-release it, hopefully slightly tweaked and improved. It's nothing new.

You also have to consider that both the label and band are also considering playing order and sequencing, repetitiveness... they probably take into account how the album will play when you listen to it from start to finish. Having every edit, remix and demo of every song is a horribly monotonous idea.

What I'd like is: (the real) Run 2 Mto, Mto (minus mix) temptation 7"

And NO SUPER-COMPRESSED 'remastering'. I don't listen to music on earbuds and I know how to operate a volume knob, thank you very much. If nothing else comes from this, I hope record companies get this through their head. If you listen Singles, then listen to the same track from an 80s issue of Substance, the difference is astounding - Singles has no subtlety or detail whatsoever. It's just maddening how record companies think this is an improvement.

And am I the only one who actually likes Retro? I'm not crazy about the 'Fan' disc but as a whole it's a great package. I love it.

-1 wrote: i don't even want to imagine the nightmare that licensing out tracks from factory/london and other labels have been through the years..

London/Warners own the New Order Factory songs...

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: I think people are confusing what these actually are.

Seems people are expecting to have everything they ever said did or thought for a certain time period in one package. THat's not what these are: they're album reissues - that's it.

Supply is less then demand, they re-release it, hopefully slightly tweaked and improved. It's nothing new.

You also have to consider that both the label and band are also considering playing order and sequencing, repetitiveness... they probably take into account how the album will play when you listen to it from start to finish. Having every edit, remix and demo of every song is a horribly monotonous idea.

What I'd like is: (the real) Run 2 Mto, Mto (minus mix) temptation 7"

I disagree with this view. All the information we've had so far has suggested a 'bonus' disc with 'stuff we've never heard'. Expanded albums.

Not just the original album remastered, but a package containing the original and bonus material. If we'd been told up front that it would just be the album, then yes, I'm sure we've had kicked off, but once again, it's a case of them just getting it plain fucking wrong. Again.

And to reiterate AGAIN. What we're asking for is not a disc of Blue Monday versions ad infinitum , but stuff that once upon a time the band did think was up for public consumption (knocking on the head this demo issue), things like Perfect Pit, Cries and Whispers and Mesh, The Happy One, Round & Round mixes.

This was all released OFFICIALLY by the band (The Happy One on the Substance Video, before anyone queries this), and is already out there. The bonus disc would have merely served to capture all of this, nice and FUCKING TIDY - A CLEAN END TO THE STORY.

Well, fuck the band and fuck Warners if this is all they can muster. They were once renowned for their packaging and presentation, and attention to detail.

Remember that comment Barney made on the BBC doc about the only time Factory got itself into trouble was when it had to interface with the real world? Well, look at what the 'real world' has got us into - a worldwide recession forecast, rising crime, increased inequality, climate change, fucking pointless expensive wars all over the shop. Fuck that, give me a bit of naive idealism every fucking time - it keeps me sane and hopeful. Which is pretty far from how I'm feeling about how this project has been managed

Emile Strunz wrote: Fuck that, give me a bit of naive idealism every fucking time - it keeps me sane and hopeful.

I agree with this!

Emile Strunz wrote:

FtotheDoubleOff wrote: I think people are confusing what these actually are.

Seems people are expecting to have everything they ever said did or thought for a certain time period in one package. THat's not what these are: they're album reissues - that's it.

Supply is less then demand, they re-release it, hopefully slightly tweaked and improved. It's nothing new.

You also have to consider that both the label and band are also considering playing order and sequencing, repetitiveness... they probably take into account how the album will play when you listen to it from start to finish. Having every edit, remix and demo of every song is a horribly monotonous idea.

What I'd like is: (the real) Run 2 Mto, Mto (minus mix) temptation 7"

I disagree with this view. All the information we've had so far has suggested a 'bonus' disc with 'stuff we've never heard'. Expanded albums.

Not just the original album remastered, but a package containing the original and bonus material. If we'd been told up front that it would just be the album, then yes, I'm sure we've had kicked off, but once again, it's a case of them just getting it plain fucking wrong. Again.

And to reiterate AGAIN. What we're asking for is not a disc of Blue Monday versions ad infinitum , but stuff that once upon a time the band did think was up for public consumption (knocking on the head this demo issue), things like Perfect Pit, Cries and Whispers and Mesh, The Happy One, Round & Round mixes.

This was all released OFFICIALLY by the band (The Happy One on the Substance Video, before anyone queries this), and is already out there. The bonus disc would have merely served to capture all of this, nice and FUCKING TIDY - A CLEAN END TO THE STORY.

Well, fuck the band and fuck Warners if this is all they can muster. They were once renowned for their packaging and presentation, and attention to detail.

Remember that comment Barney made on the BBC doc about the only time Factory got itself into trouble was when it had to interface with the real world? Well, look at what the 'real world' has got us into - a worldwide recession forecast, rising crime, increased inequality, climate change, fucking pointless expensive wars all over the shop. Fuck that, give me a bit of naive idealism every fucking time - it keeps me sane and hopeful. Which is pretty far from how I'm feeling about how this project has been managed

Absolutely agree with Emile's post.

I also think the remastering will brick out all the dynamics of the original recordings, so fuck that too.

My money will be spent on much better things in life.

Tokoloshe Man wrote: Release Date:22/10/2008

Movement (HMV Japan) [Disc 2]

1. Ceremony
2. Temptation
3. In A Lonley Place
4. EGG
5. Procession
6. Mesh
7. Hurt (WPCR13166)

PC&L (HMV Japan) [Disc 2]

1. Blue Monday
2. The Beach
3. Confusion
4. Thieves Like Us
5. Lonesome Tonight
6. Murder
7. Thieves Like Us (Inst.) (WPCR13168)

Low-Life (HMV Japan) [Disc 2]

1. The Perfect Kiss
2. Sub-Culture
3. Shellshock
4. State of the Nation
5. Elegia
6. Let's Go
7. Salvation Theme (WPCR13170)

Brotherhood (HMV Japan) [Disc 2]

1. BLT
2. 1963
3. True Faith
4. Touched by the Hand of God
5. Blue Monday 88
6. Evil Dust
7. True Dub (WPCR13172)

Technique (HMV Japan) [Disc 2]

1. Don't Do It
2. Fine Line
3. Round & Round
4. Best & Marsh
5. World in Motion
6. Run 2
7. MTO
8. Vanishing Point (Inst.)
9. Fine Time (WPCR13174)

Is there going to be a Substance Collectors Edition as well, as suggested on Play.com? http://www.play.com/Music/CD/4-/5607174/Substance/Product.html

Emile Strunz wrote: Remember that comment Barney made on the BBC doc about the only time Factory got itself into trouble was when it had to interface with the real world? Well, look at what the 'real world' has got us into - a worldwide recession forecast, rising crime, increased inequality, climate change...

Factory Records are responsible for climate change??? Must be all the cardboard they wasted when they cut out the holes from the Blue Monday sleeves.....

Colin Simpson wrote: the bonus disc is what it is. . . a bonus, with a few remastereed b'sides etc...

What "bonus"? It would only be a friggin' "bonus" if they'd charge us the price of a single CD... wich they won't, just look at the price tags! If a single CD costs about 8 or 9 quid and the remasters are priced 15 quid, don't you think a 40 minute long "bonus" CD is a bit, dare I say it, pricey?

(I'm using play.com prices for reference)

coney island baby wrote: all these mentions to The cure and Depeche Mode :dead:

Apparently that's what a New Order fan listens to. Add Erasure & the Pet Shop Boys

Ryan wrote:

Ryan wrote: Is there a torrent up for the "Excerpts From Recycle" promo CD anywhere? I'd buy this one currently on eBay (here), but the likelihood of me being awake to win it is slim.

Someone posted a link to "Mesh" the other day. A link to this promo would also be appreciated!

Alternatively, if I do win the disc, I'd be happy to provide it to anyone who wants it when it arrives.

Just won it. Will share when it arrives.

Received this today - nice hearing these different versions! (Haven't heard most of them since they haven't been made digital yet).

God how I wish they went ahead with the entire "Recycle" project.

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

coney island baby wrote: all these mentions to The cure and Depeche Mode :dead:

Apparently that's what a New Order fan listens to. Add Erasure & the Pet Shop Boys

I hate all of those bands...

He says, adding helpfully to the debate

Ryan wrote:

Ryan wrote:

Ryan wrote: Is there a torrent up for the "Excerpts From Recycle" promo CD anywhere? I'd buy this one currently on eBay (here), but the likelihood of me being awake to win it is slim.

Someone posted a link to "Mesh" the other day. A link to this promo would also be appreciated!

Alternatively, if I do win the disc, I'd be happy to provide it to anyone who wants it when it arrives.

Just won it. Will share when it arrives.

Received this today - nice hearing these different versions! (Haven't heard most of them since they haven't been made digital yet).

God how I wish they went ahead with the entire "Recycle" project.

Oh yeah.....giggity

RichShan wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

coney island baby wrote: all these mentions to The cure and Depeche Mode :dead:

Apparently that's what a New Order fan listens to. Add Erasure & the Pet Shop Boys

I hate all of those bands...

He says, adding helpfully to the debate

I know it doesn't add to the debate, but I second your sentiments. I detest those bands. In fact, I would say New Order might be the only band I listen to that could be vaguely classified as Electronica (or use a drum machine for that matter apart from hip-hop). Yet somehow they're my favorite band (or at least tied with Pavement). Go figure.

Initially I was disappointed, but on reflection this is good news as I don't have to buy any of them. Another example of London/Warners not getting it right, I don't imagine New Order themselves have much input over what's included on these remasters, unlike the days of Factory when it was just Wilson and co and they could do pretty much what they liked. Once they handed their back catalogue over to a major label it was always going to be handled badly just like everyone else.

Suzuki wrote:

RichShan wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

coney island baby wrote: all these mentions to The cure and Depeche Mode :dead:

Apparently that's what a New Order fan listens to. Add Erasure & the Pet Shop Boys

I hate all of those bands...

He says, adding helpfully to the debate

I know it doesn't add to the debate, but I second your sentiments. I detest those bands. In fact, I would say New Order might be the only band I listen to that could be vaguely classified as Electronica (or use a drum machine for that matter apart from hip-hop). Yet somehow they're my favorite band (or at least tied with Pavement). Go figure.

Well you can hate them, I was just using them as a reference of a remaster done right. Well, not exactly right, but at least worthy of repurchasing a pre-owned album.

michael preda wrote:

Suzuki wrote:

RichShan wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

coney island baby wrote: all these mentions to The cure and Depeche Mode :dead:

Apparently that's what a New Order fan listens to. Add Erasure & the Pet Shop Boys

I hate all of those bands...

He says, adding helpfully to the debate

I know it doesn't add to the debate, but I second your sentiments. I detest those bands. In fact, I would say New Order might be the only band I listen to that could be vaguely classified as Electronica (or use a drum machine for that matter apart from hip-hop). Yet somehow they're my favorite band (or at least tied with Pavement). Go figure.

Well you can hate them, I was just using them as a reference of a remaster done right. Well, not exactly right, but at least worthy of repurchasing a pre-owned album.

I LOVE Depeche Mode, The Cure, and the Pet Shop Boys, Quality bands who wrote quality songs. PSB especially write quality songs.

Oh, I love New Order/Joy Division too.

And PIL. And The Smiths. And the Buzzcocks. And Patti Smith.

And Al Green. And Marvin Gaye. And Parliament Funkdelic.

And Mozart. And Ennio Morricone.

Cause good music is good music. :)

And to be fair...the PSB reissues set a new standard...I remember when they came out....everyone was talking about how quality they were.

The Cure remasters the same.

And for New Order......a band of New Order's stature and history should really be offering something more than most of the B Sides that are on Substance.

I mean hell, even live stuff (which I love) would be better than what they are offering.

These reissues are quite dissappointing.

So who's betting there's a new greatest hits out at christmas with Blue Monday 2008 on it?

Seriously, im suprised anyone thought they'd get any more than this to be honest! We've all got our own opinion of what should have been included, but i doubt anybody would've wanted this - main reason i could see is there should be a re-master of Substance in this lot, after all its full of stuff not on the sodding albums in the first place!

Would've liked Movement to include a second disc of the album remixed by the band themselves.

As for the other albums, i think i'd have prefered single disc editions with nothing more than a decent re-mastered audio.

All the "rare" stuff could be collected on a 2 disc album released seperately - or even just made available on iTunes. Looks like i'll be waiting for these to hit HMV's 3 for £20 sales.

Steve One wrote: So who's betting there's a new greatest hits out at christmas with Blue Monday 2008 on it?

Seriously, im suprised anyone thought they'd get any more than this to be honest! We've all got our own opinion of what should have been included, but i doubt anybody would've wanted this - main reason i could see is there should be a re-master of Substance in this lot, after all its full of stuff not on the sodding albums in the first place!

Would've liked Movement to include a second disc of the album remixed by the band themselves.

As for the other albums, i think i'd have prefered single disc editions with nothing more than a decent re-mastered audio.

All the "rare" stuff could be collected on a 2 disc album released seperately - or even just made available on iTunes. Looks like i'll be waiting for these to hit HMV's 3 for £20 sales.

Apart from BM2008

Just abandon hope now. We all know we are going to get digitally processed tracks from a CD, not the actual master tapes, just like what happened with Retro.

Blue Monday will STILL have that right channel drop out at 2:25 like Substance, or the missing drum beat cut off from the actual remastered version.

Perfect Kiss will STILL be missing those 40 instrumental seconds

Truth will STILL have the first few drum beats cut off in the beginning

Cries and Whispers will once again be mislabeled as Mesh (there's enough room to fit both tracks, but only one is listed)

True Faith will STILL have those tiny digital skips throughout the song

Both Sub-Culture and Shellshock 12" will be the Substance edits

Seems like the only effort being made them putting Run 2 and MTO with Technique, though I'll laugh my ass off if John Denver sues them from his grave and they have to remove it.

I won't be purchasing these as well. In fact, we should all just download and pirate them out of spite.