Do you resent Republic for its lack of H00ky?

I know many of you do not like Republic. I remember some of you complaining about the lack of Hookey's bass on it, hence the reason you hate it. But let's look at it from an objectionable standpoint...ignoring your love for Hookey, wouldn't you agree it's one of the best New Order albums ever made, despite the watered down bass? I mean seriously, what's fucking with Regret, World, Ruined in a Day, Spooky, Everyone Everywhere, etc etc? There really isn't one bad track on the album, only a couple of so so tracks like Young Offender and Liar. But the rest are TOP. FUCKING. NOTCH.

So C'mon admit it, you resent Republic because you love Hookey so much you refuse to accept an album if his bass isn't thundering away throughout the whole record.

While I think that the production on Republic is a bit too smooth, and Jooky's bass is indeed way to low in the mix (and literally non existent on Everyone Everywhere, Ruined in a Day, and World), I think Republic is a really great album that has some of New Order's best songs on it. Bernards vocals and lyrics on it are among his best, as is Steve's drumming and Gillians synths.

But it would have been better if Hooky were on it more. Listen to the album version of Spooky, his bass is fantastic on it.

The Ohio corridor weighs in early:

Good question, and honestly, no. I do resent Republic as a blight on the otherwise stellar NO discography up to that point, but not for the lack of Hooky. (Well, a little bit.)

Actually, it's the lack of Stephen Morris that bugs me, if anything. I think Republic and I think drum loops. I certainly don't mind drum machines (I've owned enough of 'em), but the cool thing about New Order is you handed them tech and they did something unexpected and downright cool with it (e.g., the "Blue Monday" kick drum, "586"). Something mildly dangerous.

That said, the tech at the time wasn't that inspiring either IMO. The synths making the rounds at the time were pretty boring machines. Rather than the sound of Barney/Gillian/Stephen wrestling with some wild analog beast and nearly losing, you have very polite, very slick synths.

So there's the formula. Set up a swingin' drum loop, layer some synth pads on top, and... Not that that's not a valid way to write songs; it's a great tool for one person to write a song, but when you have an honest-to-God band like NO on call, it's criminal. Because you end up laying some Hooky bass lines on top like frosting to preserve the "brand."

In my ideal alternate universe, there was no Republic, just "Regret" backed with "Special."

Gnu Odor wrote: I think Republic and I think drum loops.

Exactly. I can't listen to most 90's dance music because of drum loops - one bar repeated endlessly for the duration of a song, with no variation whatsoever. With drum machines you had to map out the structure of a song, and you might make a mistake that lead to something interesting.

Yes, the beats are boring. Not much evidence of Steve, or the band. Like a boring watered down version of early 90s dance, not really inspired. I liked the "Regret" single when it came out, and the "World" remix, but was bored by the album CD, usually turned it off by "Spooky".

1993 was after acid house... Techno harshness was the style in the early 90s and breakbeats were getting faster and more prominent. Hip hop was in the mix also. New Order responded by being bland, almost an adult contempo. version. Spooky and Chemical start out like they will have some energy but break down into very forgetable bland songs. This is hardly a great dance record, maybe for the supermarket maybe.

The songs just are not very good after "Regret", by the middle of the record they are weak and boring. Sumner thinks he is a pop star like a Pet Shop Boy or George Michael at this point. It's just a rather boring record with few good songs. More Hooky, more interesting percussion either harsher or indie band style, better songs... all would have helped.

World and Ruined in a Day are actually made more interesting by their remixes (well, the main remix). The album production is well crafted but uninspired.

It's a great record though I resent Hooky for it's lack of Hooky and the rest of the lazy bastards who left Stephen Hague and his session musicians to finish it.

Republic hasn't stood the test of time too well. I loved it when it first came out, and it does have a certain nostalgia for me as I listened to it nonstop during one of the best summers of my life (between junior / senior year in high school).

But if I listen to it now, it has that ultra-smooth drum loops like others have talked about that make it just bland. The same type of boring loops that eventually went on Raise the Pressure, which hasn't stood up well in time either.

Although Hooky's bass would be a nice addition, I don't think that is what killed the album. It has to be those drum loops... but I do think Barney was on the top of his game for lyrics for Republic.

Gnu Odor wrote: In my ideal alternate universe, there was no Republic, just "Regret" backed with "Special."

That would have been one of the greatest singles in their catalogue, alongside True Faith/1963 and LWTUA/These Days.

Its an 'Electronic' album in all but name.

But on Technique he isnt high enough either

I do mainly,but not just for that,I'm not keen on Stephen Hagues' pop-sheen sensibilities,it just doesn't sound like a NO album to me.It contains one fantastic true NO track in Regret,which is one of my all-time favs',but other than that,even tho' they are good songs,it just doesn't do it for me & I hardly play it :\ohwell:

Best New Order album ever

"Republic" sounded like there wasn't a real band devoting their full attention to the task.

Of course, during production, the Hacienda and Factory Records were imploding. Then add drug habits and the stress inherent in the personal relationships.

So it is no wonder that "Republic" was not that good of a record.

and to echo 50's comments, drum loops (and most break beats) flat out suck.

In my opinion Republic is a great album, it is the first cd that I ever bought and the first New Order cd also, after I heard Regret on a local NY station called Z100, I was in love with that song. Even without Peter Hook's bass it still sounds good, it would have been more better also if had more bass on the album.Overall it is a very good album.

It's all relative...if Republic was the first New Order album you heard, it'll tend to be your favorite.

If you were a fan before 1993, you'll tend to like something else.

Spotnick wrote: Yeah too bad there is no Hooky on Regret

They played most of those songs live, with Hooky not faded out.. did it change anything?

Think it's the way they did the record, each on their own corner, that caused this mostly...

I totally agree. Not a bad album though for a band not being on the same page.

regarding True Faith, but the same could be said for Republic...

"I remember getting some criticism at the time for having Hooky a little submerged in the mixes, and listening to it now they were absolutely right. The bass is too low. But you know, I didn't have any experience mixing bass as a lead instrument, I didn't know quite how to handle it, and the result was vibey, but not quite right. You have to lean forward to hear everything he's playing, and while that's not an uncomfortable feeling, if I were doing the mix now I would definitely bring that fader up. Maybe he should have dug in his heels a bit more at the time."

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar05/articles/classictracks.htm

It's atleast got novelty value, good artwork, and baywatch barney.

its amazing that they got it done and released, considering the turmoil of the time. its better than no release in my book. its an ok album. complete opposite of brotherhood (which was vastly underproduced). republic is all gloss and no edge (apart from the truely great regret).

never the less, world, RIAD, Spooky, everyone everywhere, times change, special and avalance are all good. it just doesn have that spark that no are renowned for and plays too safe.

I adore Republic. It holds together thematically and in mood better than most NO albums IMO. Special is still right up there as one of my favourite NO moments ever. Yeah maybe it would be better with more Hooky but as somebody already mentioned, he's underplayed on Technique as well and that's arguably their finest work. Love the production, it adds an elegance and important cohesion that was probably needed at the time.

Performer [Additional Musicians] Andy Duncan , Audrey Riley , David Rhodes , Dee Lewis

Utopia wrote: Performer [Additional Musicians] Andy Duncan , Audrey Riley , David Rhodes , Dee Lewis

I wonder how much music on the album was played by these guys? If its minimal then fine but if it was, say 40% then Id be a little worried.

I actually think Hookys bass is fine on Technique. To me, I can hear it distintively on all songs. I think maybe its just not used as a lead so much but I think the songs are better for it. They sound more cohesive and balanced.

M1 wrote: I adore Republic. It holds together thematically and in mood better than most NO albums IMO. Special is still right up there as one of my favourite NO moments ever. Yeah maybe it would be better with more Hooky but as somebody already mentioned, he's underplayed on Technique as well and that's arguably their finest work. Love the production, it adds an elegance and important cohesion that was probably needed at the time.

Hooky underplayed on Technique??!! You think so? I don't & I would definately agree if I thought otherwise,'cos I just love hearing Hookys' bass & am very,very disappointed if it's underplayed,a la Republic.Anyway,it's all over the whole album with the exception of Mr.Disco & Dream Attack,& contains some of his best work,so,for me,I'm very happy with it

Been to Adelaide by the way,gorgeous city,wish I lived there

And if you cant hear Hookys bass on All The Way, Loveless, Round and Round, Guilty Partner and Run....then you must be tone deaf and should be put in an old peoples home.

I resent Republic because, until the advent of Rock The Shack, Working Overtime and I Told You So, it boasted in Young Offender, Liar, Chemical, and Times Change the four worst tracks the band ever put on an album. The presence or absence of the playing of Mr. P Hook is largely an irrelevance if the songs are shit.

And Adelaide's good for about two days of yuks tops.

NO Regret wrote: And if you cant hear Hookys bass on All The Way, Loveless, Round and Round, Guilty Partner and Run....then you must be tone deaf and should be put in an old peoples home.

:D

Indeed, i fucking love that album, it's very NO in the 90's. It's not the dark 80's anymore. Still it has a dark feeling and regret is one of the best things thye have EVER done, EVER

Ally wrote: Republic is underrated and much maligned IMO but realistically speaking the album probably would've worked better as an EP - cutting out the filler like Liar, Young Offender etc - and of course turning up Hooky in the mix. The angelic production probably needed a rougher edge here or there to bring the tracks to life.

I feel pretty much the opposite way. I think most of the material is decent, and that they gain from the album context. Along with Technique, it's the NO album that is most thematically consistent.

Unfortunately, there is also a lack of outstanding tracks - I'd give nearly everything 3/5. Nothing grates on me like a number of songs off Get Ready,WFTSC and the last two Electronic albums do. I never really had a problem with "Young Offender" or "Liar". I even dig Barney's rap on "Times Change". It's a shame Mr. Tune never paid a visit while they were making "Chemical", but even that's quite an attractive recording. On the other hand, I don't appreciate "Ruined" or "Everyone Everywhere" as much as some seem to.

kel wrote:

M1 wrote: Yeah maybe it would be better with more Hooky but as somebody already mentioned, he's underplayed on Technique as well and that's arguably their finest work.

Hooky underplayed on Technique??!! You think so?

Ok, underplayed is the wrong word. But it's definitely more subtle and used less as a leading instrument as it has been before and since. Fine Time, Mr Disco & Dream Attack use it pretty sparingly and that's a third of the album. It's not a criticism by the way, not every NO song needs to have a trademark Hooky bass run.

kel wrote: Been to Adelaide by the way,gorgeous city,wish I lived there

Cheers! Most people think it's a crap place for a holiday but a lovely place to live, kinda the opposite of Sydney :)

Along with Technique, it's the NO album that is most thematically consistent.

Never mind the quality, feel the thematic consistency...

Jonny Donepoindatgunname wrote:

Along with Technique, it's the NO album that is most thematically consistent.

Never mind the quality, feel the thematic consistency...

I mean only that some music works better as a whole than piecemeal. Side 2 of Abbey Road contains none of the Beatles better songs. "You Never Give Me Your Money", maybe. But it's rather effective as a unit. To take an example closer to home, neither "Candidate" nor "I Remember Nothing" are ever going to be top of the JD pops, but they work rather well in context.

Shit album for me.My ears don't piss blood or anything like that,it's not offensive,it's just flat with nothing in it for myself.

I remember being disappointed getting it at the time when it first came out,playing it over and over,getting bored of trying to like it.

Apart from the obviously sublime 'Regret' which is just thee most beautiful of all songs,musically,lyrically-everything. I loved Regret immediately and I love it now,really love the bitch...I still listen to it now when I'm driving,my kids know every word,I look for it on the Dukey wherever I go,and get a buzz if it comes on the radio.I'm obsessed with Regret.Breakfast,dinner and tea-I'm a Regret bore.It's right up there with Crystal,Ceremony,Temptation,Vanishing Point,Run....A real classic.

It was always going to be downhill on Republic after 'Regret' That's the kindest thing I can think of to say about the album...It was a lot downhill,mind-shite in my opinion. 'Regret' more than justifies Republic's existence though. 'Special' has a moment here and there,but now I'm just looking for something else decent to say about it.So no,it's shite.

Overall,New Order's worst album IMO

El Jarvo wrote: I don't resent Republic for the lack of Hooky, I resent it cos it's just a bit shit.

well said

I pretty much love everything about Republic, except the rapping in Times Change. And I can even like that if I'm in a jovial mood. Cover art takes my fancy too!

The only New Order album I liked completely from the first listen.

Yes, yes I do. I seethe with resentment towards it. I often make sarky remarks to it as I pass the cd shelving unit. I think they pass right over its head though, as it sits there, imperiously and infuriatingly smug in its jejune Hooklessness. But _I_ know what I meant, and so I chuckle silently to myself as I pass on my way.

Republic was the first New Order album I heard and, honestly, I found it odd that the former Joy Division sounded like the Pet Shop Boys.

I agree with the aforementioned reproaches, although I don't care much for Hooky's bass on that album. The production is too smooth and pop and, in retrospect, it undermined its sound for further listening decades later. I understand it was a house album but look at Electronic's first album, it was much better produced due to its smart simplicity (for the same very reason, Raise The Pressure was a huge hit-and-miss).

i wonder sometimes if half of the muppets on here know anything about new order or thier history,specially the yankee ones.you got nothing better to do than sit in your bedroom and analyse republic all day.get a life we all know the story.as for you nerds moaning about the remasters,dont you see theyll be collectors items with all the glitches

chelsea wrote: i wonder sometimes if half of the muppets on here know anything about new order or thier history,specially the yankee ones.you got nothing better to do than sit in your bedroom and analyse republic all day.get a life we all know the story.as for you nerds moaning about the remasters,dont you see theyll be collectors items with all the glitches

Surely, a little harsh for a second post? Is it you, Steve?

I just resent Republic for its lack of toons really. Apart from Regret it's really a bit of a dud for me which i put down to the solo projects, because they've never been the most prolific writers. Cull the best tracks from electronic, revenge and the other two, new orderize them, and they would have put out one fine album. Least favourite album along with Movement and WFTSC

Republic would have been a decent Barney solo LP, but without the full band it's not a Neworder LP. I believe that a lot of the cruft and filler on it is a result of Barney getting "serious" about his "songwriting" "craft", whereas for a lot of people the Hooky bass sound is a key component of the whole JD/NO sound, without which something special and magic is lost.

Yeah, I despise the horrid little thing (aside from Regret, of course).