Is 'Republic' crap?

I was pretty surprised reading a few threads on here and seeing my fave NO album getting some grief. My gast was flabbered. So is that how the majority feel? I always find Republic to be the album I can listen to from start to finish most (the second being Brotherhood).

I like the album overall, so I wouldn't think it's crap. But maybe those who don't like the album much might think so.

Big fan. Love its 'glossiness' but do understand why many might not. Special is up there with the best NO tracks ever.

I think it is crap, mostly because it sounds like the band was beginning to be less experimental - you can tell in the production. The album sounds so flat, not just because of lack of Hook's bass. The piano house sound was getting old in 1993, and thus World, Chemical, Times Change, Spooky already sounded dated when they came out, ultimately forgettable. Even Special's opening is a rip of Massive Attack. It often surprises me that there are people who got into New Order because of this album, when all the material before it was a lot more experimental.

It's crap. But not so much due to a lack of 'Hook' as a lack of 'hooks' (see what I did etc etc). The songs are just below par, simple as that. Nowt to do with production. The production is no more shiny and polished than on Technique or Electronic from the same era which are both head and shoulders above Republic.

Of course being New Order they have to hit you with the curveball of 'Regret', the last truly great New Order single written. So it's not completely without it's moment (singular).

Not the absolute strongest, but Ruined In A Day and Regret are obviously fantastic. I usually play the single version more than the entire album. Rainy days are a good time...

I love it, but it holds a lot of memories for me, so I might be more accepting of a sub-par album because of it. It was the album of summer vacation between my junior - senior year in high school, a time when I had the most freedom and least responsibilities. So its a seasonal album for me, I tend to only play it during the summer.

I still remember finding it. I was working at this "member" store, and putting returned items back on the shelf. I saw the album cover and thought "hey that looks cool". Upon closer inspection, I was excited by the words "New Order" on it, but I was not sure if it was a NO album since it said "A New Order Release" (I thought it could be some compilation, plus I didn't hear that they got back together). So I took the chance, and loved it from first listen.

I was hooked on Republic for about 18 months after I bought it, I think its quite a good album to be honest, I love the production following in the vein of Technique and Electronic, Barneys vocal delivery is among his best ever in my opinion

Highlights:

Regret Ruined In A Day World [Price Of Love] Everyone Everywhere Special Avalanche

There are some weak ones on there though, Spooky, Young Offender, Liar... which probably make it so unpopular.

Before I even got into New Order properly, the Republic era is what represented them to me. I always pictured the band during this time in my mind, with that sort of style.

I also blame the Kurzweil K2000 synthesizer that they were using for the dated sound.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

Due to the strained circumstances surrounding the recording it sounds like a sub-par Electronic album at times but that it got released at all what with all the shenanigans of that 92 Factory-collapse saga going on is impressive.

I think it was a great way sign-off from the Fac era. For me, everything came together properly for one last time; the songs, Peter Savilles artwork (perfection), not appearing much in the videos, monks and David Hasslehoff.

And, like someone mentioned earlier, that period of time for me was fantastic and Republic was my soundrack to 1993. Perhaps it isnt just about the songs...

The answer 2 the question is no.republic def not crap.highlights 4 me are regret,world, runied in a day & avalanche.love gillians voice on that track.its really beautiful.would've liked to have heard her sing on more. Not that i'm trying 2 do bernard out of a job.to hear both their voices 2gether would've been fantastic! :-)

Joanne Bailey wrote: .to hear both their voices 2gether would've been fantastic! :-)

rumour has it that's what you get at the end of waiting for the sirens call (the track that is not the album) but no definate answer, maybe Jack could ask?

I loved it at the time, despite the lack of hooky bass, but it just seems too mellow now, other than regret of course which is always in the top 5.

I don't mind Hague's production, but he just didn't know what to do with Hooky, and I think that also increased Bernards thoughts of new order without all that bass (i.e. bad loo)

Thought it was total crap as a whole (minus Regret) until I started listening to it for the 1st time since I bought it in 93'. I went with a friend and bought it at midnight the day it was released at the Tower Records in Las Vegas. Got the one with the limited orange "inner tube" like cover. I listened to Regret a million times but couldn't get into the rest of the album after many attempts. I was hoping it was going to be more like Technique which I loved or more like the single Regret which I'm pretty sure I'd had a month or so before the album's release. Eventually I gave up and now 17 years later I'm listening to that original cd again, giving the "whole" album another chance. Actually listening to Republic now is like listening to a brand new New Order album for me because I hadn't heard it all the way through since it came out. I'd heard Regret and all the singles off the album but the other tracks were a complete mystery to me. I can now say in all honesty, that Republic is actually decent, way better than I thought it was back in 93' after I pretty much abandoned it. Vocals are good, lyrics are decent(most of them anyway, I like em) and the music(which I probably didn't care for originally) isn't really that bad. Besides Regret the music on Republic sounds more like a dancier version of Electronic's music. I thought it was said that Barney wanted to make a "dance album", which I think he did. If the whole album would have sounded more along the lines or in the style of Regret I would have been in heaven back in the day and Republic would probably be my favorite NO album of all time.

Joanne Bailey wrote: .highlights 4 me are regret,world, runied in a day & avalanche.love gillians voice on that track.its really beautiful

Superhighways also proved the lass could knock out a tune, Gillians singing on that one was even better thanon TO2&Y

I think performing songs from Republic such as World can't have been much fun for Hooky,in my opinion the songs on that album with his bass guitar on are the best ones.Overall it sounds dated and I hate the rapping on Times Change,the backing singers on World,the video for Ruined In A Day,the video for Spooky,but I love Regret,Special and Avalanche.

"'Regret', the last truly great New Order single written."

I absolutely agree, 100%.

Crystal is the last truly great New Order single

NO,, its special.

nothing I Regret

No it is not crap at all.
I have fond memories when the album came out. After 3 year hiatus, finally a new album which I thought was far better than I expected.
The production and lack of Hooky was like having a bit different New Order. - A fresh approach is better than replicating your former albums.
Regret, World, Everyone Everywhere were the highlights but most of the songs are good expect for the rap one. Some half baked efforts like Young offender which was not bad but could have been better. Better that Get Ready and WFTSC.

everyoneverywhere wrote: Crystal is the last truly great New Order single

Krafty & WFTSC are better IMO.

Republic is a weak album for a New Order album. It is the one I play least of all.

If I remember correctly. Didn't New Order have a whole day dedicated to them on BBC Radio One for the release of it?

I like Republic so much but I don't listen to it frequently World, Spooky, Regret and Special are masterpieces

Regret is great, the next two songs are good. The middle sounds more like a polished but somewhat uninpired Bernard Sumner & Stephen Hague record, with session players.

Don't really like the production all that much, thou Regret is beautiful. The dance songs sound neutered, a lot of the record sounds more middle of the road than edgy... while everyone else was embracing or imitating house/techno, Republic actually pulls back to MOR.

Really, I never made it thru the entire album. Tracks 4 thru 9 make me want to listen to something else. Many of the songs are simply below average and boring. At the time I was happy to have a new New Order album, but the album didn't grow on me.

Republic was released when I was traveling alot. We used to take loads of road trips, and my dad would play Republic and Duran Duran's "wedding album" along with Depeche Modes Songs of faith and devotion. I truly love the album, even its flaws, because as a whole it was a nice sendoff to an era of decadence and unrelenting genius. For me, this album had the best artwork, and the best videos, something about the Regret video still brings tears to my eyes, a perfect companion disc is Reading 93.

Ger Boy wrote:

If I remember correctly. Didn't New Order have a whole day dedicated to them on BBC Radio One for the release of it?

They did. They called it New Order:To Order.

Other than it was a great day.

I also liked all of the mixes that were with the Single Releases...they kept you going until Monaco surfaced in '97!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: I would say that Crystal is the last truly great New Order single written.

The 6:50 version is the dog's bollocks

Crystal wouldn't even make my top 5 off Get Ready. Dreadful dirge. The only song that might have pushed Regret close for the title of 'last great single' is Here to Stay but I'd have to rule that out on account of it being more of a collaboration with the Chems than a straight up New Order production.

If New Order's production values could've sounded as relevant and edgy on Get Ready and WFTSC as they did on Here To Stay they'd have sold a tonne more records and would've exposed themselves to a much broader (and younger) fanbase a la, dare I say it, Depeche Mode.

Can't say I'm that keen on the Get Ready album - haven't listened to it for ages. I much prefer Technique - for me that is the best New Order album. If you have to have one of their albums it would definetely be that one. Mr Disco the highlight for me there.

I think "Technique" is more crap.

To answer the question great 1st side. The b side (vinyl lovers out there such as myself there is still a b side) is the worst New order material apart from Special and Avalnache. So an OK album but my least favourite NO album

Last great NO track is surely Turn.

Joanne Bailey wrote: Technique - for me that is the best New Order album. If you have to have one of their albums it would definetely be that one. Mr Disco the highlight for me there.

Couldn't have said it better myself

The live version of Mr Disco with the samples ,would have been a great single/remix.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: I thought Here To Stay was a bit New Order-by-numbers, it was as if they knew they'd neglected the electronic "style" on Get Ready and were trying to make up for it. HTS while not a fundamentally "bad" track just sounded a bit forced/tired to me. Do agree if the Chemicals had been allowed to stamp more of their style on it, it could have been really good and a proper collaboration.

I didn't rate Crystal much when the first demos surfaced (and said so) but as time went on I grew to love it. The album version is strangely brilliant with the vocal/ambient keyboard intro before descending into guitars, drums and "a small army of Peter Hooks" as a review put it at the time. Didn't think much of the follow up 60 MPH though, now that really is dreadful dirge.

I'd say HTS is about 60% Chems and 40% New Order and all the better for it (and I don't even rate most of what the Chems do). Listen to the compression on Barney's vocal, never heard that before or since, it works briliantly. Ditto all the beeps, squiggles and loops dropped in at just the right places. And on top of that they manage to blend the bass and guitars in seemlessly.

Honestly, I think HTS was a blueprint for what late-era NO could have sounded like had they let go of the reigns a little and allowed some more creative input from new collaborators and producers. Perhaps replacing the keyboard player with another bloody guitarist wasn't the smartest move.

It really isn't a bad album...just dissapointing for the time. When I first heard it I was devestated.

Though if you take it as a commercial pop album, which is what they set out to make, along with the artwork, the videos, the remixes - all together, it's really not that bad.

Stephen Hague ruined Hooky's Bass on this album. Compare his productions to Regret and True Faith live, what a great difference.

GlasVegas wrote:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: I thought Here To Stay was a bit New Order-by-numbers, it was as if they knew they'd neglected the electronic "style" on Get Ready and were trying to make up for it. HTS while not a fundamentally "bad" track just sounded a bit forced/tired to me. Do agree if the Chemicals had been allowed to stamp more of their style on it, it could have been really good and a proper collaboration.

I didn't rate Crystal much when the first demos surfaced (and said so) but as time went on I grew to love it. The album version is strangely brilliant with the vocal/ambient keyboard intro before descending into guitars, drums and "a small army of Peter Hooks" as a review put it at the time. Didn't think much of the follow up 60 MPH though, now that really is dreadful dirge.

I'd say HTS is about 60% Chems and 40% New Order and all the better for it (and I don't even rate most of what the Chems do). Listen to the compression on Barney's vocal, never heard that before or since, it works briliantly. Ditto all the beeps, squiggles and loops dropped in at just the right places. And on top of that they manage to blend the bass and guitars in seemlessly.

Honestly, I think HTS was a blueprint for what late-era NO could have sounded like had they let go of the reigns a little and allowed some more creative input from new collaborators and producers. Perhaps replacing the keyboard player with another bloody guitarist wasn't the smartest move.

I think HTS is up there with the best songs they've done. If a whole album had been released along those lines I think I'd have much preferred it to WFTSC ...

Plain and simple, get all of the singles from Republic, make a good ol' fashion mix of what you like and forget the album. Works for me.

I'm just going to chuck in my usual twopenny worth re: HTS. Don't like it, never have; always thought the guitars don't fit very well on a sub-standard Chems track. Always thought the Chems got a better deal with OOC, even if it is a bit of a rip of Heaven 17 linky.

Always thought HTS would sound terrible live, but never heard it played live or on bootleg.

Crystal is the nuts, however.. love the dirty bass on the long version and the explosion of percussion. Always thought it sounded really fresh, and boding well for the future. Then along came HTS, and well....

I always thought Republic didn't really sound like NO, apart from Republic and EE; far too polished and the sound of a band falling apart. Parts of it sound more like Electronic by numbers to me. And too much filler, which I'd never experienced previously with NO albums.

Republic certainly wasn't crap.

On reflection, it was mighty piece of work considering the Factory blow out, and the dour sound of it reflects that. I think Q called it a "cathedral of sound" or something along those lines.

Regret, Ruined in a Day, Everyone Everywhere, World (the Perfecto remix), Special, Liar are all great tunes (the bitterness in the lyrics - aimed bluntly at AHW - belies the light piano house arrangement).

Like others, the album holds great memories for me. In the past I have written about taking Electronic's debut album on holiday with me to Majorca in 1991 and feeling like the coolest bloke alive listening to it by the pool. In the 1993, I went back to Majorca with Republic and felt exactly the same.

I also recall NO's performance at the Montreux Jazz Festival in that summer, and thinking that they looked like the coolest band on the planet. It was a strong, mature, tight performance that showcased the album with a sprinkling of classics. Temptation was flawless.

In 1993, NO were definitely the coolest thing on the planet, Republic was well received, although my mate - a Hall & Oats fan - always reminds me that Q rated it seven out of ten, whilst in the same edition they gave Daryl Hall's Soul Alone album nine out of ten. Times change.

PS: HTS is shit.

Major Tarantino wrote:

I think HTS is up there with the best songs they've done. If a whole album had been released along those lines I think I'd have much preferred it to WFTSC ...

I agree. I was a bit disapointed with WFTSC at first as HTS had built up some expectation as to what the sound was going to be like.

HTS had the first New Order video that I thought was really boring, though. Even when that Sam Tyler off Doctor Who turned up playing Bernard.

What a great mish mash of parts: Bernard Sumner, Sam Tyler and Harold Saxon/The Master. You'd pay to play parts like that.

noorder wrote: What a great mish mash of parts: Bernard Sumner, Sam Tyler and Harold Saxon/The Master. You'd pay to play parts like that.

Despite the non-event that the HTS vid was, I thought Sam Tyler gave the best bloke-out-of-New-Order performance in 24HPP. He didnt have many lines but it seemed about right.

Post-Technique New Order Albums analysis time:

REPUBLIC: New Order wallow in Blandsville. The Stephen Hague production is very sterile and disappointingly lightweight. To think we waited four years for this underwhelming set. About half of the album is fine, the other half (mostly side 2) pretty mediocre. Great tracks: Regret, World, Everyone Everywhere, Spooky. Okay tracks: Ruined..., Times Change, Avalanche, Special. Rubbish tracks: Liar, Young Offender, Chemical.

GET READY: New Order rock back into view. Eight years has diminished New Order's fanbase as the album only 'stiffed' at number 6 but it might have had summat to do with the fact that it was released the same day as a whole host of other crap albums which did better in the chart (Slipknot, Strokes, Five...). Better production than Republic - gutsier arrangements too. Great tracks: Primitive Notion, Close Range, Crystal, Turn My Way. Okay tracks: 60 Miles An Hour, Vicious Streak, Slow Jam, Run Wild. Rubbish tracks: Rock The Shack, Someone Like You.

WAITING FOR THE SIRENS CALL: Cannot talk about this album without mentioning the fucking godawful shite lazy pathetic [No] sleeve. Absolutely atrocious. Not as good a record as Get Ready either, true to expectations. Looks like New Order sound well and truly tired on half of the material here. Uninspired? Yup. Best tracks (NO 'great' tracks this time): Krafty; WFTSC, Turn. Okay tracks: Who's Joe?, Juggernaut. 'Meh' tracks: Working Overtime, Morning Night and Day. Rubbish tracks: Dracula's Castle, I Told You So, Jizzstream, Guilt Is A Useless Emotion.

Yep - it would appear that Republic marked the gradual slow decline of New Order....

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: I thought Here To Stay was a bit New Order-by-numbers, it was as if they knew they'd neglected the electronic "style" on Get Ready and were trying to make up for it. HTS while not a fundamentally "bad" track just sounded a bit forced/tired to me. Do agree if the Chemicals had been allowed to stamp more of their style on it, it could have been really good and a proper collaboration.

Agree.

The production could have been more expansive (the guitars louder in the choruses for instance). And if it was recorded with better editing / remixes and then released credited jointly to the Chemical Brothers and New Order it could arguably have been a bigger hit than it was.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: I didn't rate Crystal much when the first demos surfaced (and said so) but as time went on I grew to love it. The album version is strangely brilliant with the vocal/ambient keyboard intro before descending into guitars, drums and "a small army of Peter Hooks" as a review put it at the time. Didn't think much of the follow up 60 MPH though, now that really is dreadful dirge.

The LP version begins like a Dark Side Of The Moon track - that wailing backing vocalist Dawn Zee makes it sound so fucking Nurofen..... I'd rather it started with the sound of Hooky's bass and Barney's guitar feeding back melodically for about 45 seconds.....before piling straight into the opening drum beat. Now THAT would have been a better way to kick off the album. :)

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Yep - it would appear that Republic marked the gradual slow decline of New Order....

I think yer off yer rocker. Agreed on the song selections, but gradual decline? I love that NO didn't stick to one exact sound, they changed it up from Brotherhood to WFTSC, though keeping to a true core. The only thing shaky out of NO is the numerous side projects, many hit and misses there. Never did they sound stale or grasping for past record sales. Republic GR and WFTSC all are great albums.

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

GET READY: Rubbish tracks: Rock The Shack.

Could not disagree more. Rock The Shack...ROCKS!

A pity Primal Scream used a guitar solo from one of their existing songs but maybe they were in a rush.

I also recall NO's performance at the Montreux Jazz Festival in that summer, and thinking that they looked like the coolest band on the planet. It was a strong, mature, tight performance that showcased the album with a sprinkling of classics. Temptation was flawless.

The mix of Temptation is anything but flawless though, all you can hear is drum machine and no Steve! It makes it a bit flat really as the dynamics of Steve coming in are lost on this version.

Seems like I've been here before but 20-ish years down the line I still feel the same about 'Republic'. Every time I listen to it I'm hoping to find some genius that's always eluded me but nope, ain't happened. There are two flaws but they're both fundamental. (1) the songs ain't inspired - technically they're not bad but there's none of the creativity and danger and wit that characterised the best work. All the poo at the time - personal/professional distance, trouble at the Hassie, the Factory collapse... It didn't make for a doom-laden album (as advance reports suggested), just a lack-lustre one. In fact they were so fed up they needed Stephen Hague, and he's problem number (2). It ain't just the Hooklessness, it's the prissy production, the warbling girlies, the session musicians, even Steve sounds like a drum machine (it's what he would've wanted). 'Republic' and 'Raise the Pressure' marked a real stall for me, especially after the glories of 'Technique' and 'Electronic'.

Michael Monkhouse wrote: Seems like I've been here before but 20-ish years down the line I still feel the same about 'Republic'. Every time I listen to it I'm hoping to find some genius that's always eluded me but nope, ain't happened. There are two flaws but they're both fundamental. (1) the songs ain't inspired - technically they're not bad but there's none of the creativity and danger and wit that characterised the best work. All the poo at the time - personal/professional distance, trouble at the Hassie, the Factory collapse... It didn't make for a doom-laden album (as advance reports suggested), just a lack-lustre one. In fact they were so fed up they needed Stephen Hague, and he's problem number (2). It ain't just the Hooklessness, it's the prissy production, the warbling girlies, the session musicians, even Steve sounds like a drum machine (it's what he would've wanted). 'Republic' and 'Raise the Pressure' marked a real stall for me, especially after the glories of 'Technique' and 'Electronic'.

...and the big sweaty gonads of "One True Passion", surely?

My brain has cancelled the trauma of One True Passion.

El Jarvo wrote:

Burt Burterson wrote: I'm just going to chuck in my usual twopenny worth re: HTS. Don't like it, never have; always thought the guitars don't fit very well on a sub-standard Chems track. Always thought the Chems got a better deal with OOC, even if it is a bit of a rip of Heaven 17 linky.

Always thought HTS would sound terrible live, but never heard it played live or on bootleg.

Crystal is the nuts, however.. love the dirty bass on the long version and the explosion of percussion. Always thought it sounded really fresh, and boding well for the future. Then along came HTS, and well....

I always thought Republic didn't really sound like NO, apart from Republic and EE; far too polished and the sound of a band falling apart. Parts of it sound more like Electronic by numbers to me. And too much filler, which I'd never experienced previously with NO albums.

Are you doing mind-reading now?

Thanks for saving me the effort of typing all that out (apart from the Heaven 17 bit, don't really see it). Couldn't have put it all better myself.

great minds

Burt Burterson wrote:

El Jarvo wrote:

Burt Burterson wrote: I'm just going to chuck in my usual twopenny worth re: HTS. Don't like it, never have; always thought the guitars don't fit very well on a sub-standard Chems track. Always thought the Chems got a better deal with OOC, even if it is a bit of a rip of Heaven 17 linky.

Always thought HTS would sound terrible live, but never heard it played live or on bootleg.

Crystal is the nuts, however.. love the dirty bass on the long version and the explosion of percussion. Always thought it sounded really fresh, and boding well for the future. Then along came HTS, and well....

I always thought Republic didn't really sound like NO, apart from Republic and EE; far too polished and the sound of a band falling apart. Parts of it sound more like Electronic by numbers to me. And too much filler, which I'd never experienced previously with NO albums.

Are you doing mind-reading now?

Thanks for saving me the effort of typing all that out (apart from the Heaven 17 bit, don't really see it). Couldn't have put it all better myself.

great minds

more like Simple Minds

In a nutshell... It is a fine album. Typically New Order and a step forward, continuing the notion that every album should sound different. They should have never written/dumped Liar and Chemical however. A 9 track album just like Technique would've done just fine.

:)

The Paradise Man wrote: In a nutshell... It is a fine album. Typically New Order and a step forward, continuing the notion that every album should sound different. They should have never written/dumped Liar and Chemical however. A 9 track album just like Technique would've done just fine.

:)

fuck yeah. holy words for sure.

Giving it another listen through, some of republic seems to have this brilliant horridness to it. I don't know how else to describe Liar, Young Offender is a good concept gone completely haywire...Hookys bass at the end was pretty good though. Ruined In A Day is the one track that I can honestly say "mystifies" me, along with Avalanche, if I remember correctly some interview with Barney on WIM has barney stating he'd have liked to rework RIAD or something similar, due to its cinematic nature it was a favorite of his.

Don't really have a problem with Times Change, sounds like a demo/blueprint of Raise The Pressures second half. When it comes down to World, I honestly love this track and its corresponding original video, it perfectly captured the bands feelings towards another, having them all split up in different locations.

I do however think the Regret video was their last bit of absolute brilliance, theres something magical about it. Especially seeing them all play in that room, its really a video that I can say is worth buying "Item" for.

The Paradise Man wrote:

They should have never written/dumped Liar and Chemical however.

:)

If they'd done that there'd've been a load of speculation (mainly on these forums) about great lost tracks à la Sirens! Best get 'em out eh, at least that way we know they're a puddle of poo!

Michael Monkhouse wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote:

They should have never written/dumped Liar and Chemical however.

:)

If they'd done that there'd've been a load of speculation (mainly on these forums) about great lost tracks à la Sirens! Best get 'em out eh, at least that way we know they're a puddle of poo!

Can you imagine the reaction if those tracks were available via some rare track download?

Maybe there are pre-Hague demos for the whole Republic album that was produced by the band? Now that might be interesing, if they actually existed.

Why do people dislike Chemical so much? The lame lyrics and weak melody? The techno parts that tease that it might be a techno song then the song turns boring? That there are techno parts at all?

glad to see RIAD getting some long overdue respect. I think it is brilliantly composed, and is pretty much like nothing NO did before. A nice change of pace, and good to chill out to. In fact, I view Republic sorta of as after-party album. Everyone Everwhere has really grown on me through the years, and Barney's geetar is excellant in that one. Love the version at that Jazz festival in Montreal or maybe Switzerland.

0_o wrote: Maybe there are pre-Hague demos for the whole Republic album that was produced by the band? Now that might be interesing, if they actually existed.

quote]

Had very similar musings myself once. You know I always got the impression 'Republic' started life as a more classically-NO disco/rock hybrid but as they got increasingly fed up they got Stephen Hague in and he turned it into the non-event it became. You see I remember Hooky saying in '92 the album'd showcase a 'harder' side to the band - and next year telling some guitar mag how he'd feed a bass-line into the computer then play over it 'but in World Hague didn't use his contribution'. Similarly, Steve told 'Select' the first and best songs they did were Regret, EE and Special - surely the closest to the sound we love, certainly the only trax they decided to play live (except the next two singles, but they're obvious choices when you're touring the album). Just my impression mind...

Maybe the band themselves werent sure which direction to take Republic? I remember in an interview Hooky referring to one point in the recording where Bernard felt the stuff was sounding 'too much like New Order' to which Hooky replied 'Of course it sounds like New Order, we are fucking are New Order'. Something like that anyway.

It makes you wonder what sound bernard was after exactly?

A bit shite,perhaps. Still,'Regret'and Bernard's haircut were both top of the fucking pops during this period.

I listened 2 republic again a few days ago after reading this thread and i must say i really enjoyed listening 2 it again.it def is not crap.

Boatraceface wrote: A bit shite,perhaps. Still,'Regret'and Bernard's haircut were both top of the fucking pops during this period.

,,,,,,,,,Good evening Mr B.......One doths ones cap and spank s ones wippet.........could not agree more dear boy..........more couvousier???????????............

I think I hate the RIAD ambient mix, because it's fat too short, and brilliant.

Listened to Republic up loud on glorious vinyl yesterday and I still rate it highly. Maybe Liar is a stinker but compared to some of the toss on WFTSC even that is not so bad. Watched the Montreux DVD after - Everyone Everywhere holds up so well. Seeing Hooky gurning away triumphantly on barely-existent bass lines is still pretty funny though.

A couple of you have mentioned band comments about Republic - can anyone point me towards any interviews online where they discuss their satisfaction or otherwise about the album? Is it just speculation on our part that Hooky in particular was not happy about Hague or is it something he has referred to in detail?

Avalanche is a masterpiece. Brilliantly captured the dying embers of an era now gone, never to be repeated. Though Gillian encourages us to have "faith".

Joanne Bailey wrote: It makes you wonder what sound bernard was after exactly?

Maybe there wasnt much cohesion at all by then. What baffles me is how much blame seems to laid at Stephen Hagues door for Republic. Unless the band had given up caring, which based on what I remember of said interview is unlikely, I cant imagine them allowing a producer to take them in a direction they didnt like.

'Regret' live from Baywatch beach was another highlight from that period. Great performance with The Hoff keeping a watchful eye in case the band were swept away and needed saving...

Maybe they should have produced it themselves,ok,they might have ended up killing each other but at least the end result would have been a half decent album instead of what most posters seem to agree was bland and over produced with not enough live drums or bass guitar.

Produced by New Order : PCL,Lowlife,Brotherhood.

Produced with the help of outsiders,(e.g.Hague): Republic,Get Ready,WFTSC.

I know which ones I prefer.

Gene wrote: Maybe the band themselves werent sure which direction to take Republic? I remember in an interview Hooky referring to one point in the recording where Bernard felt the stuff was sounding 'too much like New Order' to which Hooky replied 'Of course it sounds like New Order, we are fucking are New Order'. Something like that anyway.

You seem to hit on the problem. Bernard wanted to go a more mainstream pop/rock direction beyond traditional New Order with an outside pop producer, and wanted to see himself as a more traditional frontman/leader, while Hooky wanted to keep more to the 80s New Order tradition of independence and democracy, and continue the same style.

Lots to agree with and disagree with above, so much so that I can't quote individually everything I want to respond to.

I think your response to an album is linked to your personal circumstances when you hear it, and the relationship you've had with the band's music previously.

I had been listening to NO since 1983, so my feelings about their music had been shaped primarily by PCL. I liked the way it seemed that a lot of the songs had been shaped by jamming, and then throwing together the song sections from widely different jams to make a strange hybrid 'song', often in a key in which Bernard couldn't sing easily. Hardly any of the early stuff has a conventional song structure (verse/bridge/chorus/middle 8 etc).

The early songs came out like that because that's how the music was written: people in a room. Later, as Bernard learnt more about conventional songwriting, and by collaborating with experienced producers like Robie and Hague, the music got more conventional. I guess that "True Faith" is the best example of this, but you can hear the direction he was heading in on Technique, too.

Count in also the amount of New Order's money that Factory was spending, and you can see why Bernard would want to make the next NO album something that would be successful by a) reflecting his songwriting skills and b) being polished in sound.

I don't whether there are many pre-Hague demos. I think we heard that they started off with Pascal Gabriel but that didn't work at all. I suspect that he was too much of an engineer and not enough of a producer.

So, to me, Republic sounds like what Bernard wanted to do with Electronic. The old NO style of throwing together jammed sections comes out in "Times Change", but most of the rest is in the new style. It seems that Hooky contributed in the studio, even if his parts didn't end up as originally intended; in an interview he said that he wrote a bass part for "World", but it got turned into the vocal melody.

Being used to the older style, Republic was hard for me to get to like. The beginning and end are great, but the middle is pretty awful and I usually skip about 3 tracks. "Liar", in particular, sounds like something that Simply Red would have dumped for sounding too cheesy.

Oh, and don't blame the K2000! It inspired Steve & Gillian to do "Avalanche". For sure it was better than resurrecting the by-then cliched D50 from Technique.

Great debate.have enjoyed reading everyone's comments.well done gene for starting this thread.for those of you who have mentioned vinyl i love it 2.much prefer it 2 anything else.have spent many happy hours going through racks of vinyl.ah those were the days.downloads just aren't the same.

I would imagine the only people who consider "Republic" their favourite New Order record are:

i) New Order's bank manager(s) ii) New Order's coke dealer(s)

I imagine both have some extremely fond memories of that extremely lucrative period.

Now, can we please all try to get over it: it was 17 fucking years ago and the record still (mostly) sounds like a pile of half-arsed wank.

Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I would imagine the only people who consider "Republic" their favourite New Order record are:

i) New Order's bank manager(s) ii) New Order's coke dealer(s)

I imagine both have some extremely fond memories of that extremely lucrative period.

Now, can we please all try to get over it: it was 17 fucking years ago and the record still (mostly) sounds like a pile of half-arsed wank.

And there you have it. Thread closed

Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I would imagine the only people who consider "Republic" their favourite New Order record are:

i) New Order's bank manager(s) ii) New Order's coke dealer(s)

I imagine both have some extremely fond memories of that extremely lucrative period.

Now, can we please all try to get over it: it was 17 fucking years ago and the record still (mostly) sounds like a pile of half-arsed wank.

someTIMes I love THIS forUM

PhilBarnes wrote: Lots to agree with and disagree with above, so much so that I can't quote individually everything I want to respond to.

I think your response to an album is linked to your personal circumstances when you hear it, and the relationship you've had with the band's music previously.

I had been listening to NO since 1983, so my feelings about their music had been shaped primarily by PCL. I liked the way it seemed that a lot of the songs had been shaped by jamming, and then throwing together the song sections from widely different jams to make a strange hybrid 'song', often in a key in which Bernard couldn't sing easily. Hardly any of the early stuff has a conventional song structure (verse/bridge/chorus/middle 8 etc).

The early songs came out like that because that's how the music was written: people in a room. Later, as Bernard learnt more about conventional songwriting, and by collaborating with experienced producers like Robie and Hague, the music got more conventional. I guess that "True Faith" is the best example of this, but you can hear the direction he was heading in on Technique, too.

I think that "True Faith" is New Order's finest moment. It is, a one reviewer said, "Their best combination of head and heart." It's a beautiful, meaningful song, and you can fucking dance like hell to it.

Technique is New Order's best album, IMO. Hands down. Brilliant songwriting, lyrics, melodies, playing, production.

As for Republic, I love how everyone blames the records problems on Bernard Sumner, just as they do every problem New Order ever had.

It's not just Sumner's fault, or Hague's fault, or even the bands. The record was recorded at a bad time for everyone involved. Gillian and Hooky were not getting along at all (Hooky apparently was sexist towards her), and by all accounts Bernard and Hague had to put the record together from disparate parts recorded at different times by the band members (which is why it sounds like a Bernard Sumner solo record guest starring New Order). As for the lack of Hooky, Bernard said Hooky was out sunbathing while they were recording and mixing, so take that for what you will. The band were simply not getting a long, its a bad time. Hooky said that if they had actually recorded it together as a band it would have sounded better, more like Technique.

That being sad, I do like Republic. It has a sad, elegiac, end of summer feel to it. I realized this one day back in 2005. It was a gloomy, rainy, end of August day....I put Republic on while I was cleaning the house...perfect. There are some great songs on Republic: Regret, Special, Everyone Everywhere, RIAD, World, I even like Times Change and Young Offender. Spooky is a great song and actually has some great bass work from Hooky on it (though its wayyyy too low in the mix). Sumner's lyrics on the record are really good. So the record is good in ways. I prefer it to Brotherhood (which I think is New Order's worst album next to Movement).

It's a flawed, but interesting record.

Someone pointed out that replacing Gillian with a guitarist may not have been the best idea, and I agree. Phil clearly enjoys playing guitar more than synth, which lead to syntth parts that should have been played live put on backing tracks. If Gillian had been replaced with someone who was more into synths, who knows......

The concept of Hooky playing over the top of some Ibiza house was a good one.

But the only songs that work for me are: World, Spooky, Liar and Young Offender.

I think that "True Faith" is New Order's finest moment. It is, a one reviewer said, "Their best combination of head and heart." It's a beautiful, meaningful song, and you can fucking dance like hell to it.

Technique is New Order's best album, IMO. Hands down. Brilliant songwriting, lyrics, melodies, playing, production.

Agreed Zachary. Technique is the best album and True Faith is on of their best songs. I still prefer 'Elegia' though - OMG! FUCKING BEAUTIFUL!

It also depends what kind of New Order you are into. They have the cool, laid back, pop tunesmith side, a'la Technique & Republic, or the more agressive punky side of their early albums

Cool Order

1. Regret.
2. True Faith.
3. Touched By The Hand Of God.
4. Special.
5. All The Way.
6. World [Price Of Love].
7. Ruined In A Day.
8. Love Vigilantes.
9. Vicious Streak 10.Mr Disco. 11.Everyone Everywhere. 12.Round & Round. 13.Run. 14.Turn My Way. 15.Dream Attack. 16.Avalanche.

johnny james wrote:

I also recall NO's performance at the Montreux Jazz Festival in that summer, and thinking that they looked like the coolest band on the planet. It was a strong, mature, tight performance that showcased the album with a sprinkling of classics. Temptation was flawless.

The mix of Temptation is anything but flawless though, all you can hear is drum machine and no Steve! It makes it a bit flat really as the dynamics of Steve coming in are lost on this version.

As I said, flawless.

Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I would imagine the only people who consider "Republic" their favourite New Order record are:

i) New Order's bank manager(s) ii) New Order's coke dealer(s)

I imagine both have some extremely fond memories of that extremely lucrative period.

Now, can we please all try to get over it: it was 17 fucking years ago and the record still (mostly) sounds like a pile of half-arsed wank.

I disagree, for; (i) I don't have any money; and, (ii) I prefer Vimto.

Republic...

It's "A New Order Release" but I don't think it's purely wank.

I was listening to KROQ while driving out of Los Angeles in April 1993. The DJ teased that he'd be debuting the new New Order single (Regret) shortly. Nearly an hour later, I drove up a hill in Valencia (not the Spanish one) and waited, as the reception was getting a bit weak. That first exposure to Regret was a thrill. "New Order are BACK!", I thought. I had enjoyed Electronic, the Tasty Fish single, and, to a lesser extent, some Revenge tracks. However, Regret was the real deal. I purchased tickets to both California concerts as soon as possible.

Then Republic "dropped". I desperately wanted to love it, but all was not well. Regret's lustre had not faded, but there was nothing else to match it in style or quality.

World is a servicible dance track, but New Order had been responsible for some of the best dance tracks of ALL TIME. It was later improved by the generic Perfecto treatment, but was still below par.

Ruined in a Day is an interesting album track, but shouldn't have been a single. While not the best, it is the single that best represents Republic: It sounds like a beaten-down version of the band.

Spooky could have succeeded on the dancefloor if they had managed to come up with a decent chorus.

Everyone Everywhere is a sappy, plodding mess. I'm baffled as to why they chose this to play live rather than...

Young Offender. This and Regret were the two tracks initially produced by Pascal Gabriel before Hague was called in. It would have made a decent single. While not in league with Regret, or perhaps as catchy as World, I much prefer it to Ruined... and Spooky. Someone else thought so too: There were red "Young Offender" shirts available at the Shoreline Amphitheatre concert.

Liar would have fit right in on the first Electronic album but is well out of place here. It actually has a decent chorus and Barney obviously was inspired by the subject matter lyrically but no, it just doesn't belong.

Chemical could have been a decent b-side instrumental (swapped with Vicious Circle) if they had further explored the sounds and structure. They could have developed Hook's riff and used it on the album but instead he kept it in his pocket until using it for Monaco's second single Sweet Lips. Alas, it's on Republic and it's a turd. The forced lyrics handily send the track to the bottom of many fans list of favourites.

Times Change, along with Liar, reasserts Barney's dominance in the move toward's Electronic's sound. Rapping! All the kids are into it! The bit were everyone takes a few bars to "solo" is nice though. Hooky's bit is especially lovely.

Special shows that there was still life in the band. While the music doesn't get my blood pumping, the songwriting is as strong as anything they've done since. The last verse elevates the song nicely.

Avalanche suggests we should have faith. Or does it? Faith that the next album will be better? Faith in the afterlife of the band (Electronic, The Other Two and Revenge) because New Order, as we know it, is dead? She's just singing the one word so it's certainly open to interpretation. It is my second favourite song on the album, whatever you believe.

Republic worked much better on vinyl for me. The first five tracks worked great and the rest were pretty shit, so I never bothered to turn the record over! Not quite the same stopping the CD in mid-flow!

Republic would have made a good four track ep.....

REGRET WORLD SPOOKY EVERYONE EVERYWHERE

:p

One more thing, I never really cared for that whole "A New Order Release" thing. From the very first time I saw it on the single "Regret" I thought it looked weird. It was just too much. Seventeen years later I still feel the same.

Chris Romero wrote: One more thing, I never really cared for that whole "A New Order Release" thing. From the very first time I saw it on the single "Regret" I thought it looked weird. It was just too much. Seventeen years later I still feel the same.

Probably blame Saville for that... a minor quibble to upset you for 17 years.

It's still the album I like the least. There's a defeated quality to most of the songs, the production is overdone but muddy, lacking the definition and spaciousness of Technique, there's way too much house piano and nowhere near enough Hooky. He once said that Hague was trying to turn them into the Pet Shop Boys, and in places you can hear that (both the PSB and the failing).

Regret is brilliant. The album is really a hit single with too many B-sides.

World, RIAD, and Spooky are rarities, New Order songs that are actually better as remixes.

Everyone Everywhere and Times Change aren't bad, for lost Electronic tracks.

Special is a good song weighed down by tired production.

Avalanche is, as others have said, basically an Other Two track, and one of the few bright spots.

Young Offender, Chemical and (especially) Liar are shit:

PhilBarnes wrote: The beginning and end are great, but the middle is pretty awful and I usually skip about 3 tracks. "Liar", in particular, sounds like something that Simply Red would have dumped for sounding too cheesy.

It's the worst thing they've ever done, in my opinion, worse than We All Can't Stand It or any of the filler on GR or WFTSC. Jetstream or Rock the Shack at least don't make me throw myself across the room to skip them.

Zachery Starkey wrote: Gillian and Hooky were not getting along at all (Hooky apparently was sexist towards her),

First I've heard of that.

Zachery Starkey wrote: As for the lack of Hooky, Bernard said Hooky was out sunbathing while they were recording and mixing, so take that for what you will.

I've heard that Hooky spent loads of time in the studio on previous albums, and Hague said of the True Faith session that "Hooky would try a lot of ideas, really fearless, and often it was just him and me in the studio." So either Hooky had checked out for this one (and who could blame him, given how he was being mixed), or Barney's telling stories.

Zachery Starkey wrote: Someone pointed out that replacing Gillian with a guitarist may not have been the best idea, and I agree. Phil clearly enjoys playing guitar more than synth, which lead to syntth parts that should have been played live put on backing tracks. If Gillian had been replaced with someone who was more into synths, who knows......

Agreed here.

Gene wrote: Maybe the band themselves werent sure which direction to take Republic? I remember in an interview Hooky referring to one point in the recording where Bernard felt the stuff was sounding 'too much like New Order' to which Hooky replied 'Of course it sounds like New Order, we are fucking are New Order'. Something like that anyway.

Well, he's got a pretty good point.

Oh, it's pretty weak sauce from Saville, too, the whole registered trademark / stock photo corporate look.

0_o wrote:

Chris Romero wrote: One more thing, I never really cared for that whole "A New Order Release" thing. From the very first time I saw it on the single "Regret" I thought it looked weird. It was just too much. Seventeen years later I still feel the same.

Probably blame Saville for that... a minor quibble to upset you for 17 years.

Yes, but I would lying if I said it didn't bother me.

Republic is not good or bad, it's art. Besides that, Republic for me sounds like a nightmare. Not my cup of tea at the moment.

yes it is apart from regret.

Chris Romero wrote: One more thing, I never really cared for that whole "A New Order Release" thing. From the very first time I saw it on the single "Regret" I thought it looked weird. It was just too much. Seventeen years later I still feel the same.

If you think THAT is dodgy then that's nothing compared to the second CD single of Spooky - which says "Z NEW ORDER RELEASE".

Obviously, the concept of the Republic-era sleeve designs is inspired by film posters (director, actor credits, etc) .... but it doesn't quite pull it off ....

Chris Romero wrote: One more thing, I never really cared for that whole "A New Order Release" thing. From the very first time I saw it on the single "Regret" I thought it looked weird. It was just too much. Seventeen years later I still feel the same.

I don't think it looked weird. I think it was designed to look 'normal'; in fact, hypernormal. As in, so much like how a cheesy marketing campaign for a major label release would appear that it satirises that kind of packaging. Ditto the 'Baywatch' video.

As the voiceover on NewOrderStory goes, this was the album where they "pretended to go glossy".

This just in: Republic 20% good, 30% meh, 50% crap.

More on this breaking news story when we get it.